Namco Bandai: What's your opinion?

[Mithost]

As long as Lloyd Irving gets in, I'm playing the game to death.

 

[Sacredtwin11]

i am getting tired of people saying "oh i want wavedashing back in" and such. this game isnt going to be melee 2.0, let it go already. seeing how namco is now getting involved and seeing how sakurai said he wants to take the series in a new direction means that theres definitely going to be some kind of new twists and turns. although im sure the formula will be the same, little tweeks here and there aren't a bad thing. shoot i wanna be surprised this time around. my only concern for this game is ultimately character balance. whether it'll happen or not, only time will tell.

If every character only has 1 move, and the moves the same for everyone, then you'd have character balance, but the game wouldn't be enjoyable. The game needs lots of depth too, which partially involves things like wave-dashing or L-cancelling.

 

[Baskerville]

L-cancelling was pointless and hardly added anything worthwhile when you're in an actual match. You don't need stuff like wavedashing to make Fighting Games deep or more competitive, just look at Street Fighter 4, the game doesn't even have it and its the biggest game in the scene.

 

[Tollhouse]

If the next smash has hit stun, no tripping and plays faster than brawl did then I'd know Namco did a good job

 

[Retroend]

If every character only has 1 move, and the moves the same for everyone, then you'd have character balance, but the game wouldn't be enjoyable. The game needs lots of depth too, which partially involves things like wave-dashing or L-cancelling.

i dont mind L-canceling but the thing that does bother me is that people are obsessed with melee still. its not coming back. namco is helping out this time and you can expect new changes to the series while still keeping the original formula intact.

 

[Johnknight1]

Just make L-cancelling automatic. That technique doesn't do anything that can't be done automatically. The problem with Brawl is that it got ride of all the lag reduction, and then made the game slower. It also got ride of several advanced techniques from Smash and Melee in an attempt to make the game more "original." That is why Brawl is boring (to watch). Oh, and floaty physics, spikes that don't spike (aside from the best characters), and a all-around boring and stagnant off the stage/edge game.

On top of that, while there were a lot of cool new original techniques, the game was too slow and too offensively lacking (especially with defense based on running away being OP) to make them have a big enough impact. That and nearly all of the Brawl "advanced techniques" were situational, didn't do much, couldn't chain together even a tech chase, were broken (see: all the garbage infinite chain grabs) or specific to only a few already high/top tier characters. Don't even get me started on Ness' and Lucas' hitstun!

i am getting tired of people saying "oh i want wavedashing back in" and such. this game isnt going to be melee 2.0, let it go already. seeing how namco is now getting involved and seeing how sakurai said he wants to take the series in a new direction means that theres definitely going to be some kind of new twists and turns. although im sure the formula will be the same, little tweeks here and there aren't a bad thing. shoot i wanna be surprised this time around. my only concern for this game is ultimately character balance. whether it'll happen or not, only time will tell.

You do realize the reason I brought up wavedashing is because Tekken is where wavedashing was originally discovered/termed, right=??? That doesn't mean much, though, since Namco cut wavedashing after like 2 Tekken games!

Also, they should base the game more off Melee. Brawl had no offense (aside from broken characters and a few moves for a few more character), and the defense was based around running away. Heck, even Sakurai admitted Melee was the "most polished" smash bros. game, and the best. So modelling Smash 4/5 mostly after Melee (with quite a lot from Smash 64 [taunt cancelling] and Brawl) wouldn't be so bad. Heck, I'd model the offense off of Melee; because Melee's edge/off the stage game is pretty close to perfection.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I don't really mind if Namco Bandai is developing the game or not. But it does make you wonder which character from that company would be the best pick for being playable. I'd say Pac-Man has the best odds of the bunch there.

 

[Retroend]

Just make L-cancelling automatic. That technique doesn't do anything that can't be done automatically. The problem with Brawl is that it got ride of all the lag reduction, and then made the game slower. It also got ride of several advanced techniques from Smash and Melee in an attempt to make the game more "original." That is why Brawl is boring (to watch). Oh, and floaty physics, spikes that don't spike (aside from the best characters), and a all-around boring and stagnant off the stage/edge game.

On top of that, while there were a lot of cool new original techniques, the game was too slow and too offensively lacking (especially with defense based on running away being OP) to make them have a big enough impact. That and nearly all of the Brawl "advanced techniques" were situational, didn't do much, couldn't chain together even a tech chase, were broken (see: all the garbage infinite chain grabs) or specific to only a few already high/top tier characters. Don't even get me started on Ness' and Lucas' hitstun!

You do realize the reason I brought up wavedashing is because Tekken is where wavedashing was originally discovered/termed, right=??? That doesn't mean much, though, since Namco cut wavedashing after like 2 Tekken games!

Also, they should base the game more off Melee. Brawl had no offense (aside from broken characters and a few moves for a few more character), and the defense was based around running away. Heck, even Sakurai admitted Melee was the "most polished" smash bros. game, and the best. So modelling Smash 4/5 mostly after Melee (with quite a lot from Smash 64 [taunt cancelling] and Brawl) wouldn't be so bad. Heck, I'd model the offense off of Melee; because Melee's edge/off the stage game is pretty close to perfection.

smash 4 should be based off both games. they could make the next game more fast paced than brawl, but not to the extent of melee. and i would prefer auto L-canceling over wavedashing any day.

 

[Revven]

L-cancelling was pointless and hardly added anything worthwhile when you're in an actual match. You don't need stuff like wavedashing to make Fighting Games deep or more competitive, just look at Street Fighter 4, the game doesn't even have it and its the biggest game in the scene.

This is a terrible argument against wavedashing and you know it lol.

Wavedashing adds movement options to the game that otherwise simply are not there. It makes the game look fast, gives tons of characters more options they otherwise lack, and of course technicality (which isn't necessarily important, but if you're gonna bring up SF4 as an argument then may as well bring up the 1 frame links SF4 has that SF vets LOVE, why have 1 frame links other than to cater to the SF vets? Casuals don't even bother with that stuff, same thing for wavedashing for Smash).

It brings in depth in a sensible way. You can't really achieve the same options with something else in Smash. Look at all the other "techniques" Brawl brought, everybody was hoping there would be one on the same level as wavedashing or offered the same options. Not even glidetossing offers the same options.

People like having something that's challenging to work on. Wavedashing isn't something you learn overnight, it also requires a lot of mental skill to apply in actual matches. I don't see why people are so against it, it adds options to the game, there was no good reason to remove it other than "it didn't fit Sakurai's vision for Brawl". People only hate on it just because it was in Melee, or somehow Melee is an awful game because some random dude came by and slid around on a stage a few times to show off.

Kudos to Namco Bandai if they come up with something that offers the same options without alienating players. But I assure you, wavedashing fit Smash like a glove.

 

[Johnknight1]

Honestly, wavedashing is super overrated. I think dash dancing is more important, because it is more universally useful. Wavedashing, on the other hand, is only very useful for a few characters. It is also more of a defensive/counter move rather than an offense creator. Regardless, some fast momentum changing ground movement should be in Smash WiiU/3DS, in order to allow for more quick offense, combos, and to own stalling-based defense; also, to promote defense based on movement, timing, spacing, and intelligence.

@ Falco
Well, Namco Bandai did invent wavedashing in Tekken. Also, I learned wavedashing in 45 minutes and figured out how to apply it in matches instantly. Still, learning how to space with wavedashing for offense and defense in real super competitive matches with technically and strategically excellent players is a hugely different matter!

smash 4 should be based off both games. they could make the next game more fast paced than brawl, but not to the extent of melee. and i would prefer auto L-canceling over wavedashing any day.

I don't mind smash 4 being influenced by parts of Brawl, but Brawl shouldn't have the amount of influence on Smash WiiU and 3DS as Smash 64 and Brawl should have. It didn't introduce nearly as much content as those games did to the franchise. Brawl also was dumbed down competitively. That is why Game Arts is no longer the primary developer, and Nintendo sought out another 3rd party company with actual experience with fighting games; Sakurai doesn't want to have to do all the competitive stuff on his own!

Still, I do agree I'd rather have L-cancelling being automatic than wavedashing. Because quite frankly, I hate how the messing up my L-cancelling timing!

 

[Kink-Link5]

I could be down for aerials having lag reduction if they are fast-falled. It fits the flow of L-canceling, and still requires at the very least some degree of input from the player, and would still need decision making when deciding between L-canceled aerials, Auto-Canceled ones, Aerial->DJ, etc.

 

[Retroend]

I could be down for aerials having lag reduction if they are fast-falled. It fits the flow of L-canceling, and still requires at the very least some degree of input from the player, and would still need decision making when deciding between L-canceled aerials, Auto-Canceled ones, Aerial->DJ, etc.

if i remember correctly, when brawl was released as a demo in the USA at E for All, many mentioned that when you fast fall, the characters would have less ending lag, in this case, they L-canceled automatically when they fast fell during an aerial attack.

 

[Shorts]

Glad the game won't be a competitive joke anymore. Hopefully we don't get Pac Man playable though. I don't particularly enjoy third parties, and he's one crusty mother trucker.

 

[Kink-Link5]

They seemed to be referring to a few auto-canceled aerials from what I could gather. They mentioned it having "Completely no landing lag"

 

[SmashChu]

Glad the game won't be a competitive joke anymore. Hopefully we don't get Pac Man playable though. I don't particularly enjoy third parties, and he's one crusty mother trucker.

No, it still will be. Remember that Sakurai controls this game.

And of course, by it being a competitive joke, it only sells more and is played more.

 

[Linkshot]

Considering Namco has fighter experience and Bandai worked with Sakurai on Meteos, I can't see this going badly. It will either be a great competitive game or a really fun casual game. Win/Win

 

[ryuu seika]

So, Namco Bandai you say?

Would this be the Namco Bandai that did "Tales of Legendia" or the one that did "Digimon Rumble Arena 2"?
This company has shown that it can do a great 2D battle system with scaling knockback and a fair bit of intricacy but it has also shown that it can create a laggy, spammy, SSwannaB with no real redeeming features. They could really make this or they could totally kill it. We have no way of knowing.

Don't get me wrong folks, I liked DRA2 as much as the next man, but it would have so much better if it were actually, y'know, good.

 

[FlareHabanero]

It seems that the good out weighs the bad, at least from what I've seen. Besides their not influencing the game too much, so quality might not be hampered in any way. Unless you're really stingy about the amount of polygons or the shading of a characters hair.

 

[El Duderino]

My hope is Namco will be the set of fresh eyes that can look back at the 64, Melee, Brawl and even the mods objectively. Focus on what is compelling for the player as things stand, rather than what the goals were during development. There's a lot of great stuff they can use for inspiration with the gameplay that Project Sora alone might avoid on principle.

I'd love to see a return to a more mobile, agile, and tight controlling Smash. Something with even more potential for creative approaches. Hopefully Namco will recognize this is a big strength to the Smash games and embrace it.

 

[ryuu seika]

If they can do to Smash the same sort of thing they did to ToL, this will be a masterpiece. I'm definitely willing to give whatever comes of this a try.

I'm curious as to how the combo knockback from ToL would fit into SSB though, even if they probably won't use it. It would almost certainly still fulfill its initial purpose of forcing creatrivity and destroying infinites but the added knockback would now be a desireable boost to your offensive power so it would actively reward high hit count combos at high percents.

 

[Big-Cat]

Wavedashing adds movement options to the game that otherwise simply are not there. It makes the game look fast, gives tons of characters more options they otherwise lack, and of course technicality (which isn't necessarily important, but if you're gonna bring up SF4 as an argument then may as well bring up the 1 frame links SF4 has that SF vets LOVE, why have 1 frame links other than to cater to the SF vets? Casuals don't even bother with that stuff, same thing for wavedashing for Smash).

There are methods of increasing the pace of the game, namely giving this game actual combos. You've got games like Guilty Gear that are super fast with no wave dash in sight (from what I've seen). Things like air dashes would be more suiting for this game, especially since we had directional dodging in Melee.

And those one frame links are more than something for the SF vets to get off of. They're there so as to limit combo options. Let's say we increase the hitstun of an attack by one additional frame. This makes the former one frame link a two framer, but it could possibly allow another, more dangerous attack to be comboed into that could upset the balance of the character.

It brings in depth in a sensible way. You can't really achieve the same options with something else in Smash. Look at all the other "techniques" Brawl brought, everybody was hoping there would be one on the same level as wavedashing or offered the same options. Not even glidetossing offers the same options.

People like having something that's challenging to work on. Wavedashing isn't something you learn overnight, it also requires a lot of mental skill to apply in actual matches. I don't see why people are so against it, it adds options to the game, there was no good reason to remove it other than "it didn't fit Sakurai's vision for Brawl". People only hate on it just because it was in Melee, or somehow Melee is an awful game because some random dude came by and slid around on a stage a few times to show off.

Again, there are other things besides wavedashing that can bring more depth and stuff for players to work on. Things like special, run, and jump cancelings would increase the combo potential of every character ten fold and increase the strategy options greatly. You've got to look beyond wavedashing and look at other possibilities.

If there's one thing I want NamcoBandai to do, I want them to make the combos of attacks flow better to make it look all deliberate. Compare this to some SF cancels which can look kind of funky, but they do function.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Combos do not inherently increase the pace of the game. Movement options, pressure strings, and hard-to-shift momentum do, but the latter is not inherently /good/ for a game like Smash.

Brawl even sans combos, with everything /else/ from Melee, would still be extraordinarily fast paced. It is the zero-sum nature of Brawl that makes it such an agonisingly slow battle of "who gets bored first"- I mean of attrition.

Combos do, however, add a lot more viability to several moves, that have little purpose by themselves- low priority, relatively slow, low knockback moves, generally.

 

[Big-Cat]

Not only that, but the time it takes to complete a match could be cut in half at least of what a tournament Brawl would take, possible even 75% quicker.

 

[El Duderino]

KumaOso, there's no reason some form of movement option similar to wavedashing shouldn't be implemented. The control it gives over the positioning of your character was another way Melee differentiated itself from other fighters. Now imagine if the team fully embraced the idea. We'd likely see it become more accessible to perform, maybe even lead into new attacks and approach options. What's so bad about that?

Your alternative proposition of borrowing from other fighters instead is just silly when they already have a number of unique mechanics to potentially build off of. I'm all for implementing new tools within the framework, but I would much prefer an evolution akin to Melee's jump from 64.

 

[Big-Cat]

I'm not saying it shouldn't be implemented. I'm saying that I don't think it's necessary, but I could be wrong.

 

[El Duderino]

I'm not saying it shouldn't be implemented. I'm saying that I don't think it's necessary, but I could be wrong.

For that matter neither is side-steeping but I'm sure glad it's in there to mix things up. I feel similarly here. Necessary or not is just the wrong way to evaluate if a technique is worth including.

 

[gothrax]

Isn't this a namco bandai thread?

Anyway back on topic what do guys think of the KING OF THE COSMOS!!!!!?????......

 

[El Duderino]

Isn't this a namco bandai thread?

It is... in the general discussion forum, not character discussion.

To quote the OP:

NOTE: this is not a character discussion thread. This is to speculate what will Namco Bandia's job will be and how will things go in the end. What do you guys want it to focus on: speed, balancing, technical aspects, miscellaneous extras, ect?

 

[gothrax]

Oh....... my bad....... :dkbrawl: "awwoow"

 

[finalark]

It's a safe bet that with Namco-Bandai helping with development, and given their experience in fighting games, such as Tekken, Soul Calibur, and Street Fighter X Tekken, as well as their great track record, combined with the fact that they have a great relationship with Nintendo which includes selling the rest of Monolith Soft to them, and helping with the development of Mario Kart Arcade GP 1 and 2, there's a great chance that Smash 4 will be very deep, overflowing with content (Wii U discs are about as large in data storage as a Blu-ray), and - most important of all - balanced. I'm expecting every character, including bottom tier characters to be competitively viable, and I also expect random tripping to be removed, or at the very least optional. Suffice it to say, I do have rather high hopes.

Sol pretty much hit the nail on the head right here. The guys out at Namco-Bandai have years of experience developing fighting games. I have full faith in their ability to make Smash 4 much more competively viable than Brawl or possible Melee. And I'm sure we'll still get some of that "everyone can play" thing that Sakurai wants. But that's not a bad thing, the previously mentioned Soul Calibur and Tekken can be picked up by just about anyone and enjoyed and yet they're still widely played competitvely.

All in all I have very high expectations for Namco-Bandai's work on the game. At this point the question to me isn't if Smash 4 will be good its more of what obligatory Namco-Bandai character will be in the roster?

 

[Lechteron]

This should probably be brought up in here. Project X Zone for 3DS. It certainly looks good. Strategy RPG mixed with a crazy fighting game? Shut up and take my money!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMcMpAc1Ppg&feature=youtu.be

Obviously it won't be entirely simular but there are some definite areas that could overlap in to Smash Bros.

 

[NickSF93]

As long as they learned their lesson with that glorious piece of software Battle Stadium DON...

we should be fine

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

L-cancelling was pointless and hardly added anything worthwhile when you're in an actual match. You don't need stuff like wavedashing to make Fighting Games deep or more competitive, just look at Street Fighter 4, the game doesn't even have it and its the biggest game in the scene.

I take it you don't know much about fighting games, huh?

Having no L-canceling in Smash is like Playing Street Fighter 4 without FADC's, special and super cancels. In street fighter you can buffer in a special attack after a normal and a super after a special. Here is a basic ken combo for example: J.HK, Target combo (M.P~H.P),*Special Cancel* Shoryuken or Hadouken >*Super Cancel* Shinryuken/Shippu/Shinryuken.

L-cancel in smash was for making aerials that were otherwise unsafe to use near the ground safe, in addition to that the minimal lag allowed you to execute a combo if you were quick enough. Without canceling characters wouldn't be able to safely zone or apply pressure. Wavedashing on the otherhand was limited in use but it was still useful. you could instant ledge grab or waveland off platforms for mix ups and mindgames. Characters with a good wavedash were capable of safely wavedashing out of shield under pressure. Oddly enough, wavedashing is a technique derivative of the Tekken series, hence why Jin, Kazuya and many other Tekken characters are able to use it in Street Fighter X Tekken. Characters in Soul Caliber are also capable of wavedashing.

Also, Canceling and Combos in Street Fighter were discovered completely by accident. How fun do you think Street Fighter would be is you could only exchange minor hits all the time?

 

[Johnknight1]

Meah, I still would rather have L-cancelling be automatic. It's just simpler if it does. Unlike other advanced techniques in smash bros., there is no negative punishment for L-cancelling. If it's automatic, that would be more efficient. Still, I would rather have Z/L-cancelling as they were in Smash 64 and Melee than be absent like they were in Brawl. Otherwise, most characters' aerial attacks will be worthless near the ground, the tier gaps will be larger, and most of the slow/weak characters' aerial moves will have less priority, like they were in Brawl.

Wavedashing... I still think Dash Dancing is more important. Still, I think wavelanding (to some extent) should return, as well as maybe a momentum-based sliding mechanic to encourage movement and allow constantly moving players to consistently beat characters who are stalling and camping without much trouble.

 

[lordvaati]

I'm just hping that if L-Cancelling does return it doesn't make the game favor fast falling characters....again.

 

[Retroend]

i rather have L-canceling and dash dancing over wavedashing anyday.

 

[Big-Cat]

I'm just hping that if L-Cancelling does return it doesn't make the game favor fast falling characters....again.

Or favor characters with great aerials.

 

[The Good Doctor]

i am getting tired of people saying "oh i want wavedashing back in" and such. this game isnt going to be melee 2.0, let it go already. seeing how namco is now getting involved and seeing how sakurai said he wants to take the series in a new direction means that theres definitely going to be some kind of new twists and turns. although im sure the formula will be the same, little tweeks here and there aren't a bad thing. shoot i wanna be surprised this time around. my only concern for this game is ultimately character balance. whether it'll happen or not, only time will tell.

Brawl definitely surprised the **** out of me. I was never so hyped for a games release before. I played it for two weeks then went back to Melee.

 

[Retroend]

Brawl definitely surprised the **** out of me. I was never so hyped for a games release before. I played it for two weeks then went back to Melee.

good for you doc.

 

[The Good Doctor]

good for you doc.

Oh yeah?
Nice +1 post that added nothing relevant to the discussion.