My original fears of Nintendo balancing Smash are coming true.

[MegaMissingno]

Just because DACUS wasn't originally intended doesn't mean it needs to immediately be kneejerk removed. Let it rock and see whether or not it's actually a problem that needs to go or if maybe it actually turns out to be a good thing that's worth keeping.

Geez, I'd think that Smash players of all people would understand this concept, considering it's what the competitive scene is practically built on. Death of the Author and all that.

 

[Terotrous]

Just because DACUS wasn't originally intended doesn't mean it needs to immediately be kneejerk removed. Let it rock and see whether or not it's actually a problem that needs to go or if maybe it actually turns out to be a good thing that's worth keeping.

Geez, I'd think that Smash players of all people would understand this concept, considering it's what the competitive scene is practically built on. Death of the Author and all that.

DACUS has some issues though. Most fundamentally, it's a very controller-specific tactic, if you don't have access to a C-Stick it's very hard to DACUS and not all control options for the game have it.

Inb4 dumb strawman statement about sideways wiimote.

 

[Thinkaman]

ITT: Removing something over 6 years after it is publicly known is a knee-jerk reaction.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Fair enough. I did not know this

Although I view smash development as Sakurai being a mad-man czar who does whatever the **** he wants, and while that's probably exaggerated there may be a level of truth to it.

If they actually are trying to balance for some type of competitive play then that's something. But Nintendo's entire agenda has always been "everyone can play! Everyone can win!" Look at mario kart. Look at everything. They have no interest in competitive growth. And tbh they have a pretty long history of making a lot of silly decisions. So the more they tweak the less hopeful I am. Even if for some reason it is to try and make choices that benefit competition.

Edit: I should say, I'm not all that upset about this patch. No DACUS bums me out and I don't think I even play a character who has one. It just makes me think of future changes and where it could lead. And it seems as if a lot of people are really excited by the idea of patching.

I guess new characters will be cool(ice climbers pleeeease). But yeah. This is all just something to think about. I love nintendo. I also hate nintendo. I thought more people felt that way

At it's heart, this game was always made for the casual audience to a degree. Every smash game except for Project M til 3.5.

It's a party game with items one and some stages are clearly not made for competitive play of any sort. They still put far more effort this time around for trying to appeal to the competitive audience. Far more this time around than ever before. Why else would they remove things like Zero Suit Samus's infinite on Robin? Or remove techs that would have clearly skewed characters to do things that are either frustrating or not easy to make work properly.

I'm ok with DACUS removed, or rather I am indifferent. I'm 100% for removed the specials cancelling lag or hitstun being removed even if they were broken or not.

But I do think removing both is fine in the long run since they clearly are ok with people doing Sm4sh version or dash dancing, pivot techs, run stop canceling, B-reversals etc. There is a lot to learn here and I think people are extremely short sighted if they think that this game doesn't have depth.

 

[MegaMissingno]

ITT: Removing something over 6 years after it is publicly known is a knee-jerk reaction.

Well it was proven to not be a problem in Brawl. Hell, I assumed they must've kept it on purpose. Given the precedent, why cut it now?

 

[Terotrous]

Well it was proven to not be a problem in Brawl. Hell, I assumed they must've kept it on purpose. Given the precedent, why cut it now?

On 3DS at least, only people who have a New 3DS can use it effectively. That's not exactly very fair.

 

[Dragoomba]

Every character they buffed or nerfed even pro players agreed were too good or bad.

Rosalina and sheik were being put as the top two characters very decisively.

Ike was considered bottom 5.

Game and watch with Pikachu was making doubles last as short as 17 seconds.

The balance changes were entirely spot on.

The removal of ATs was the thing that was questionable. Though it makes me ask of people played a fighting game like street fighter where you can lose this kind of stuff between versions and stuff that could be considered "interesting" gets patched out as well.

Yeah, definitely. I've stated in the OP that for the most part the balancing was legit.

Though I find it questionable they didn't touch Diddy, considering he's obvious top 3 status. I mean, he has to be miles above anybody else at this point.

I main Diddy and sub ROB. The patch didn't affect me in the slightest, and in fact benefited me greatly. With that said, I'm still disappointed that other characters are having some of their options taken away due to them being unintended subtle glitches.

Something else that bothered me was Wii Fit Trainer's airdodge landing lag being normalized. I never thought once that it was a programming mistake, because it made sense. She's a fitness trainer and is very nimble with a lot of coordination, it fit her character and made her more unique.

 

[Terotrous]

Though I find it questionable they didn't touch Diddy, considering he's obvious top 3 status. I mean, he has to be miles above anybody else at this point.

Peanut Popgun cancel trick was fixed. We also don't know for sure that he has no other changes. Some changes are still being found.

Besides, while those around him were weakened a little, it's not really that drastic. It's not as though characters like Yoshi and Sheik are suddenly free or anything.

 

[hariooo]

Sidenote: There's nothing wrong with a video game having mechanical depth (ie pressing buttons with better timing yields better results). Otherwise what's the difference in playing cards, a board game, or even... yes chess. Nevermind that Smash 4 is more like checkers.

On the topic of balancing though, the PAL version of Melee received some very well-thought out changes. A few weren't very good but in the context of what a developer can be expected to discern, the PAL balance patch was done with an amazing amount of understanding and foresight. So there is a precedent for Nintendo being able to improve their game. The problem this argument is that Melee's base game was fast and fun and that wasn't (and didn't need to be) changed in any way. Smash 4 is going to stay at the same speed with the same base gameplay. If you like the game now, that's great. If you don't like the game, no amount of polish can change the foundation.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Also I would like to add that Kara Cancelling in SF4 was likely deliberate or deliberately left in as a tech.

As far as them never patching plinking which is another bug that helps players (not that anyone cited this), that would require them to recode the entire input buffer system in SF4 and I REALLY doubt they'd want to do that.

Capcom's removed glitches and exploits such as fraudulent charge times or moves not working as intended, just like this patch did. It's not foreign to Street Fighter either. Having played SF4 for the better half of 2-3 years, I can confirm this.

 

[Terotrous]

Also I would like to add that Kara Cancelling in SF4 was likely deliberate or deliberately left in as a tech

Its existence was known long before SF4 so yes it was likely deliberate at this point.

As far as them never patching plinking which is another bug that helps players (not that anyone cited this), that would require them to recode the entire input buffer system in SF4 and I REALLY doubt they'd want to do that.

Plinking / Option Selects are not a bug. It's a consequence of the way the game resolves situations where inputs collide.

Really though, the only reason plinking is even a thing is because SF4 is like the only fighting game left that doesn't have an input buffer. IMO, this is the main thing the series needs to get better. 1 frame links just aren't an interesting game mechanic.

Capcom's removed glitches and exploits such as fraudulent charge times or moves not working as intended, just like this patch did. It's not foreign to Street Fighter either. Having played SF4 for the better half of 2-3 years, I can confirm this.

The most notable bug they removed was unblockables.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Well no plinking isn't a bug but it is an exploit that utilizes the game's input buffering system. They COULD'VE gotten rid of it but it would require recoding an entire buffering system.

 

[hariooo]

Well wavedashes are just a consequence of the way the game resolves directional airdodges preserving momentum into the ground. It's actually extremely intuitive.

 

[Terotrous]

Well wavedashes are just a consequence of the way the game resolves directional airdodges preserving momentum into the ground. It's actually extremely intuitive.

Yes, which is why wavedash-like movement is still possible in situations where you can gain momentum when touching the ground. Wavedashing was only "removed" because air dodge no longer gains momentum.

I don't think wavedashing was really healthy for the series (in the same sense that I think plinking is a bad mechanic), but it was never really "a bug".

 

[hariooo]

Yes, which is why wavedash-like movement is still possible in situations where you can gain momentum when touching the ground. Wavedashing was only "removed" because air dodge no longer gains momentum.

I don't think wavedashing was really healthy for the series (in the same sense that I think plinking is a bad mechanic), but it was never really "a bug".

Wavedashing adds almost as many options and as much depth to Melee as the double jump does. People see the word wavedashing and they think about Fox waveshining across FD but the game is opened up so incredibly by the directioinal air dodge's interaction with platforms. Suddenly you have a choice beyond "jump->aerial" to interact with the enemy on a platform. So yeah, I have to disagree in the strongest possible terms that wavedashing wasn't "healthy" for Melee.

 

[Tagxy]

More options =/= more depth. More options can actually remove depth if its not accompanied by a significant improvement in meaningful choices.

Like, it still blows my mind that people think Melee isn't the most competitive Smash game, or that it is because its playerbase is against change, rather than that it has the most technical depth.

Its because melee operates on having high complexity without significantly improving on its depth. Technical complexity is not depth, being able to move your hands faster does not significantly affect meaningful choices that are made (if anything, its a cause for removing options rather then adding them). If you find technical skill is something you enjoy measuring cool, but theres reason for people to want a game that allows us to better focus on the choices made in game instead.

They know better than to refer to a healthy technique as a glitch. If they didn't, combos would have never existed.

Rebalancing a game around a glitich makes it not a glitch.

How could having hidden little techs like item toss cancel for example effect low level entry. The game already brings in a huge audience, due to having a wonderfully cute aesthetic and simple control scheme.

Because everyone deserves to play the real game without having to spend hours surfing the internet to find little minute tricks. Otherwise players that dont do this are treated as second class players

Nintendo patching stuff is stupid. They are going to buff/nerf based on the casual fan base instead of the competitive community. So anybody who plays this game competitively and is happy about them patching things is stupid, or a scrub.

Why is anyone happy about catering to bad players? Because you're a bad player? Wouldn't you be inspired to get better instead of waiting for nintendo to patch your game so you can be less bad?

You say this as if some players here are unlikely to be better than you :I

And people saying that complaining about the glitches being removed is johning. No. You complaining about losing to some tech you can easily look up on smashboards is johning.

Theyre both johns, but only one of them is bad design as well.

Mainstream fighting games designed by companies with a history of balancing fighting games that are directed towards a core audience of players that at least consider competitive play?

Nope. I'm talking about smash brothers and nintendo here. Yknow that game the developers put random tripping into and whose online system consists of a 12 digit long randomly assigned friend code. Whose core audience is 8 year olds. Whose developer has publicly stated not liking competitive play. Have fun playing that balanced game.

But seriously. We're talking about two different things here. Zero optimism about them tweaking anything ever

This is about depth and depth is about having meaningful choices. Mentioned elsewhere but theres a term called elegance in game design, which means pulling out the most depth for given amounts of complexity. Janky options tend to be complex while providing minimal depth.

Sort of goes along with that but it also kind of sucks as far as balancing goes. Consider my character, pika. Hes meant to have a good dash upsmash, its part of his cool design. In Brawl suddenly characters that had a bad upsmash (sheik) or bad dash (falco) got to have a better dash upsmash then pika. You really think this sort of balance is fair?

 

[hariooo]

If you want a game about choices go play chess.

Fighting games are going to have a mechanical barrier. If your tolerance for tech skill is lower than other people's, that's fine, but don't hide behind the "I want a more intellectual game" defense (eg '08 Brawl arguments).

Oh and if moving your hands quickly was all that you needed to be good, Hax and Westballz would be the undisputed Melee gods. Instead, they consistently lose to smarter, technically slower players.

I mean, you'd actually have some deeper knowledge of Melee to understand that instead of regurgitating easily disputed talking points but....

 

[Tagxy]

Requiring technical ability is fine when it adds significant meaningful choices, but adding it in for its own sake is ehhhhhhhh. (btw melee is more like chess with its endgame situations, you hit a scenario and the game sort of plays out in an action-reaction cat-and-mouse game-over type situation).

Obviously melee isnt only about technical skill, but you can't deny that it can carry you pretty far. I mean I know some people like that, thats fine. All Im saying is theres a very good reason people wouldnt like that too. Personally I think if people wanted to be competitive in something with a physical barrier but also requires intelligence there's plenty of sports capable of that (and even other games). Video games provides a fun unique medium where physical barriers arent necessary for competition

 

[TTTTTsd]

Disregarding Melee, who actually benefited meaningfully from the DACUS in this game besides Greninja and Ganondorf? If this mechanic is so important why isn't it spread across the cast? What options did DACUS actually open up, I can really only think of one char that really needed it (That being Ganon, but he got another option to pressure shields in a better Nair).

Really, it's important not just to see something removed, but to know what its removal actually DOES.

 

[hariooo]

I mean there's Hearthstone if you want a game without a physical barrier. But there is no such thing as a fighting game without such a barrier. Smash 4 is no different. Even without anything close to an AT, are casuals going to get angry because someone else knew what the autocancel frame window was or because they upsmashed out of shield (the casual always just does a quick upair when they try how unfaiiiir T-T)?

Your problem with technical skill isn't one of category but one of degree.

 

[Tagxy]

I agree with that to a minor extent, but that doesnt mean it isnt worth trying to make something more accessible in regards to tech skill. Is there no utility in creating a variety of ranges and testing a variety of skills through different games? Must every game test the same skills and follow the same formula? Some people seem to imply this.

Disregarding Melee, who actually benefited meaningfully from the DACUS in this game besides Greninja and Ganondorf? If this mechanic is so important why isn't it spread across the cast? What options did DACUS actually open up, I can really only think of one char that really needed it (That being Ganon, but he got another option to pressure shields in a better Nair).

Really, it's important not just to see something removed, but to know what its removal actually DOES.

Agree, I actually provided an example of this on how it did harm to pikachu, could be extrapolated to other glitches.

Sort of goes along with that but it also kind of sucks as far as balancing goes. Consider my character, pika. Hes meant to have a good dash upsmash, its part of his cool design. In Brawl suddenly characters that had a bad upsmash (sheik) or bad dash (falco) got to have a better dash upsmash then pika. You really think this sort of balance is fair?

 

[hariooo]

It's more like the analogy of babies can't eat steak so grown men should only be allowed to drink milk.

 

[Prawn]

Disregarding Melee, who actually benefited meaningfully from the DACUS in this game besides Greninja and Ganondorf? If this mechanic is so important why isn't it spread across the cast? What options did DACUS actually open up, I can really only think of one char that really needed it (That being Ganon, but he got another option to pressure shields in a better Nair).

Really, it's important not just to see something removed, but to know what its removal actually DOES.

Oh my god.

First off, every single argument I've made is predicated on the mindset from here on forward of those balancing this game. and not specifically targeted at any change that has been made thus far.


Second. even if dacus only helped those two characters(I'd prefer to try it on the wiiu myself but) who cares? It's cool. And it expands those characters games.

Some characters are good, some are bad. And you come on smashboards to discuss all the latest findings on the character you play.

You got what you got. Metaknight was too good but we all adapted and I'd say some pretty compelling story lines and exciting matches came out of that (admittedly too good) character

Smash was always the game that had **** that didn't make sense. It didn't ostracize new players. If new players asked how something works they are always always answered, on here or in person. Smash was the game that you could find a new tech for that no developer ever knew about and you could post it and name it and explore it. Smash was the game that didn't need the approval of other communities or it's creators to be played competitively. And you know characters were still viable and tournaments were still had and to this day people play a game that came out before most a lot of them were old enough to play it.

What's happening now takes away all of that nuance. And my concern is that the people making the changes do not have a proper finger on the pulse of the competitive environment and that every patch will fix things not broken and take away cool discoveries that made characters interesting and endearing.

Taking DACUS away, something I was so excited to tinker with on the wiiu, is the first sign that any similiar discovery will be done away with. And we're going to be left playing a game strictly with the options that we are "allowed to have" by the creators. This is all well and good in tekken and street fighter but it is not and has never been smash. I wanted to open my preorder and play smash for 2 days trying to find every glitch and tech I could with the GameCube controller. And I feel like now that's stolen from me because everything found that's not programmed specifically in the game will be taken out.

Everyone says brawl would have been so much better patched, but assuming that were true, we'd never see the rise of Olimar or ice climbers late in the tier list, we may have not seen a ducking ZSS go in on everyone or it may not have been so exciting. The game evolved even years after it was released without a single change and that was cool and that was something that seemed unique to smash

That doesn't mean it'll be awful but it just doesn't sit well with me.


Can anybody see where im coming from?

 

[Tagxy]

It's more like the analogy of babies can't eat steak so grown men should only be allowed to drink milk.

That's actually a poor analogy thats only true if you believe tech skill is something worth measuring at the expense of depth.

Oh my god.

First off, every single argument I've made is predicated on the mindset from here on forward of those balancing this game. and not specifically targeted at any change that has been made thus far.


Second. even if dacus only helped those two characters(I'd prefer to try it on the wiiu myself but) who cares? It's cool. And it expands those characters game.

Some characters are good, some are bad. And you come on smashboards to discuss all the latest findings on the character you play.

Smash was always the game that had **** that didn't make sense. It didn't ostracize new players. If new players asked how something works they are always always answered, on here or in person. Smash was the game that you could find a new tech for that no developer ever knew about and you could post it and name it and explore it. Smash was the game that didn't need the approval of other communities or it's creators to be played competitively. And you know characters were still viable and tournaments were still had and to this day people play a game that came out before most a lot of them were old enough to play it.

What's happening now takes away all of that nuance. And my concern is that the people making the changes do not have a proper finger on the pulse of the competitive environment and that every patch will fix things not broken and take away cool discoveries that made characters interesting and endearing.

Taking DACUS away, something I was so excited to tinker with on the wiiu, is the first sign that any similiar discovery will be done away with. And we're going to be left playing a game strictly with the options that we are "allowed to have" by the creators. This is all well and good in tekken and street fighter but it is not and has never been smash.

That doesn't mean it'll be awful but it just doesn't sit well with me.


Can anybody see where im coming from?

No offense but this mindset is a bit norrow minded. Its like how How I Met Your Mother used to be a great show anyone could watch that had deep insight and humor, but after five seasons resorted to self-referential humor and storylines that only people who watched the first five seasons would get. Yeah it was still cool for people who invested time into watching it for 5 seasons and they could give high fives to their friends who also watched 5 seasons of HIMYM, but in terms of quality the show decided to take a major -dip-.

Eh, feel like I trivialized your concern too much. Point being a well made game (or any competition) will have great depth without needing to rely on gimmicks and janky mechanics by virtue of it being competitive.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Oh my god.
*snipped cause way too long*

I uh...never said it was inherently bad or good, I just said it's important to look at it from a certain angle. Look, I love discovering advanced/silly gimmick tech as much as the other guy (it's quite fun, really! I discovered silly stuff with Bowser in P:M 3.5 and it was fun!) but I think it's important to look at how everyone views this and make an educated statement based on it.

My opinion is yes, the DACUS being gone is kind of bleh for someone who wanted to play Ganon, but it's not why or what I play Smash for in particular. I guess it's hard to explain this, I play cause I like it? I mean....I'm not advocating for or against patching out this kind of thing (clear negatives and clear positives are on both sides of this argument), I just think that, for me, it doesn't change how I fundamentally play since my mains don't HAVE a DACUS. I think they should make it universal or just let everyone running UpSmash FFS.

I see where you're coming from but I think it's important you see where I'M coming from.

 

[Prawn]

That's actually a poor analogy thats only true if you believe tech skill is something worth measuring at the expense of depth.

No offense but this mindset is a bit norrow minded. Its like how How I Met Your Mother used to be a great show anyone could watch that had deep insight and humor, but after five seasons resorted to self-referential humor and storylines that only people who watched the first five seasons would get. Yeah it was still cool for people who invested time into watching it for 5 seasons and they could give high fives to their friends who also watched 5 seasons of HIMYM, but in terms of quality the show decided to take a major -dip-

How I met your mother is and always was gutter trash entertainment. And this argument makes no sense.

I loved the element of smash strictly being a game that wasn't meant for competitive play and that we took it and broke it down and made it ours. I don't see how that's narrow minded. I know there is a time and place for balance and patches, I play other games and I welcome those things. Smash was different for me. I was holding out hope that they'd only patch infinites or Metaknight-esque characters after allowing us to play it for a while.


Like I said, I'm still gonna play it. But it's just very disappointing to me. It's why I feel uninterested in project m, I can't get over the feeling that it's just self serving fan made BS. It loses the love I've always had for smash being the little broken game that could. And it's why I got so bothered about people on here theorycrafting about patching things since the release, because this game was always the game that said "look if you don't like it choose a different character or deal". It was cut and final. The disc was the game. I liked that. A lot.


Clearly I'm a minority, and that's fine, and the game will be fine. But it's a bad hit in my mind.

 

[Tagxy]

I guess so but you also have to see why that sort of mindset is also limiting. All im saying is, in what other meaningful competition do people need to rely on discussion of it's mechanics to keep it relevant? Having to spend tons of time figuring out the games mechanics could be a definition for inaccessible.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

To be honest, Tink's bomb cancel was kinda broken. He could put up a wall that some characters had almost no way to get around. I'm sure that probably gave him some 8-2 matchups and those just aren't healthy for the game.

Sounds like Brawl Toon Link. Yeah Brawl Toon is pretty broken. Please nerf.

 

[Prawn]

I guess so, but if someone doesn't wanna get into the game because they are salty about not knowing ATs off the bat this person is probably going to quit when they get beat by legit **** too. Like I said all of these arguments hold water and I would agree in most other instances involving most other games but we are turning a corner and losing something that has always been inherently "smash brothers" and opening the door for lots of people who will clamor for patches and things will always be up and down and it's never what I wanted from this game particularly.

Come to think of it the number one reason I hate patches is people on here talking about what should/shouldn't be patches(specifically before any balance changes were made). It's like. People played melee Ganon and falcon and luigi for a decade and you've had the game a week. Why don't you try a little harder?

 

[hariooo]

That's actually a poor analogy thats only true if you believe tech skill is something worth measuring at the expense of depth.

I don't believe you've really expressed a particularly strong argument about why directional airdodging (including wavedashing obviously), jumping out of shine, float canceling, DJC, dash dancing (in fact the Smash 4 version of dash dancing is more technically demanding), aerials done close to the ground without lag, or any of the dozens of techniques lost from Melee (and Brawl like DACUS'ing if you wanna get into it) make the game have less depth. All of these techniques provide greater freedom to control your character and give you more options in the same situation as compared without said technique. By definition that is greater depth.

For example, boxing has very deep strategy behind it that the vast majority of the audience would overlook. But MMA is a deeper sport because you have more options than using just your hands. It does mean that MMA might be less focused on the stand up striking part of the fight but in terms of more "depth", it's quite obviously true.

 

[Prawn]

I don't believe you've really expressed a particularly strong argument about why directional airdodging (including wavedashing obviously), jumping out of shine, float canceling, DJC, dash dancing (in fact the Smash 4 version of dash dancing is more technically demanding), aerials done close to the ground without lag, or any of the dozens of techniques lost from Melee (and Brawl like DACUS'ing if you wanna get into it) make the game have less depth. All of these techniques provide greater freedom to control your character and give you more options in the same situation as compared without said technique. By definition that is greater depth.

For example, boxing has very deep strategy behind it that the vast majority of the audience would overlook. But MMA is a deeper sport because you have more options than using just your hands. It does mean that MMA might be less focused on the stand up striking part of the fight but in terms of more "depth", it's quite obviously true.

I cautiously agree because I believe thinkaman will be here shortly to obliterate this argument.

 

[Exceladon City]

I only read the first page and I don't feel like rooting through the rest, so bear with me.

I am going to come off as elitist as hell, but I don't care about a lower barrier of entry. If one thinks they are capable of playing on a more intense level, they'll play. Removing "glitches" for the sake of making the game easier, feels like an arbitrary move. People complain about "broken" strategies all the time, due to their inability to use critical thinking skills to get around them. Sure, there are some things that are inherently busted to hell and back and should be fixed, but no one character is going to be equal to another. If the aim is to level the playing field, then there is no need for character diversity. I'm a firm believer that fundamentally sound gameplay trumps technical ability, but the fun and challenge of playing a technical character shows more dedication than promoting the idea of unbalanced game design.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

On 3DS at least, only people who have a New 3DS can use it effectively. That's not exactly very fair.

You are such a liar! And it's people like you who have ruined the things we like. Spouting on about unfairness and controllers. TRELA has dacus'ed mid tournament and you can look it up if you want it was with robin vs denti's shiek.

Basically everything you said stems from a skill less perspective where it is expected that you can't dacus... ****en **** man. All these scrubs complaining with their bias then other scrubs who think the same thing like their posts....

 

[Tagxy]

I don't believe you've really expressed a particularly strong argument about why directional airdodging (including wavedashing obviously), jumping out of shine, float canceling, DJC, dash dancing (in fact the Smash 4 version of dash dancing is more technically demanding), aerials done close to the ground without lag, or any of the dozens of techniques lost from Melee (and Brawl like DACUS'ing if you wanna get into it) make the game have less depth. All of these techniques provide greater freedom to control your character and give you more options in the same situation as compared without said technique. By definition that is greater depth.

For example, boxing has very deep strategy behind it that the vast majority of the audience would overlook. But MMA is a deeper sport because you have more options than using just your hands. It does mean that MMA might be less focused on the stand up striking part of the fight but in terms of more "depth", it's quite obviously true.

No youre once again confusing depth with complexity. As I said originally more options does not inherently mean greater depth. Elegance in design means having a high depth to complexity ratio and adding options for its own sake is just empty complexity. EX Having access to every gun with unlimited ammo in a first person shooter run through might seem cool and fun, but its not going to force you to make the same deep choices as the campaign that limits you to specific guns and strategically placed ammo drops for enemies. Not to mention you probably wont use half the guns you have access too simply because of how much excessive stuff you were given.

 

[popsofctown]

@ Prawn : Some people think this might be the only big patch and it's only because the Wii U version is yet to come out, so there's still a chance to improve the new players' experience with the console game. So tinker-shed smashland might still be a thing, maybe, but with 1.04 as the base instead of 1.02

 

[Prawn]

Agree, I actually provided an example of this on how it did harm to pikachu, could be extrapolated to other glitches.

The thing is, in a fighting game, everyone starts at the select character screen, equal playing field, totally fair. So just because some other characters get some things that weren't intended that serve a similar role to something you got is "tough ****"

That's where the whole new player accessible argument comes in and honestly it's running in circles that points been argued against too.

@ Prawn : Some people think this might be the only big patch and it's only because the Wii U version is yet to come out, so there's still a chance to improve the new players' experience with the console game. So tinker-shed smashland might still be a thing, maybe, but with 1.04 as the base instead of 1.02

I really hope so but if not it's not the end of the world. There will be good from patches too(like if a situation similar to Metaknight arose). And there's enough creator made things in the game to probably be solid.

But it is losing a piece of it's charm for me if so

 

[Thinkaman]

Copying from another thread:

A few important thoughts:

• Complexity is not depth.
• Breadth ("options") is not depth.
• In fact, breadth is inversely related to depth for a bound complexity space.
• Depth is not the holy grail of game design properties. It's just one of many.

(pictured: depth)

More options = More breadth and less depth/yomi.

Now, maybe you want more breadth and less depth! If so, yes, adding additional options is how you shift things that direction.

Do you want a game that is more focused on considering lots of options, or focused on thinking moves ahead?

These are diametrically opposed. Focusing on one (by increasing or decreases the number of options) removes focus on the other.

 

[Prawn]

Copying from another thread:

A few important thoughts:

• Complexity is not depth.
• Breadth ("options") is not depth.
• In fact, breadth is inversely related to depth for a bound complexity space.
• Depth is not the holy grail of game design properties. It's just one of many.

(pictured: depth)

More options = More breadth and less depth/yomi.

Now, maybe you want more breadth and less depth! If so, yes, adding additional options is how you shift things that direction.

Do you want a game that is more focused on considering lots of options, or focused on thinking moves ahead?

These are diametrically opposed. Focusing on one (by increasing or decreases the number of options) removes focus on the other.

But let's be real here dude, Snake looked really cool when he DACUS'd. Can we at least agree on that?

 

[Thinkaman]

But let's be real here dude, Snake looked really cool when he DACUS'd. Can we at least agree on that?

I remember when I was working on BBrawl, and I was trying to fix a wall/corner throw-infinite Ike had on some characters.

I accidentally did something to Ike's throw scripting that made him "ice skate" during his throws. It was really janky and stupid, but fun. (In the way the janky and stupid things often are)

We obviously didn't leave it in (like virtually all bugs we found) because Ike ice-skating around the stage is really dumb on a whole bunch of different levels. The game is clearly better where Ike is a heavy swordsman and not a ballerina. But I guarantee you that if that bug shipped in the game, people would have threw a fit if you tried to take it out.

(Except for the part where it created a b-throw infinite on Bowser...)

 

[popsofctown]

Yeah screw that janky #%#@, King D3 refuses to share his 100-0 matchups with goofy swordsmen!