My original fears of Nintendo balancing Smash are coming true.

[otter]

On 3DS at least, only people who have a New 3DS can use it effectively. That's not exactly very fair.

as long as some players have a c stick and some don't, its not going to be remotely fair, you could hat least settle for making it fun.

 

[Crescent_Sun]

You are such a liar! And it's people like you who have ruined the things we like. Spouting on about unfairness and controllers. TRELA has dacus'ed mid tournament and you can look it up if you want it was with robin vs denti's shiek.

Basically everything you said stems from a skill less perspective where it is expected that you can't dacus... ****en **** man. All these scrubs complaining with their bias then other scrubs who think the same thing like their posts....

Why are you doing this? Please stop personally attacking everyone with opposing opinions to yours. Skill can shine through in many more ways than things like DACUS.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

As a competitive community we can accept this patch because it's the Versoin 1 for Wii U, but if Nintendo takes this too far we can simply agree to play with V1 for the rest of the game's life cycle. Patches can be removed.

I'm not concerned. If new AT's that deepen the game get removed very frequently not allowing a stable metagame, I bet you anything tournaments will decide to stick with V1 from here on out.

 

[-LzR-]

as long as some players have a c stick and some don't, its not going to be remotely fair, you could hat least settle for making it fun.

Just like how unfair it's when you lose against a SF player who uses a stick and you used pad, right? Nobody is stopping you from playing with the superior controller. Don't bring a knife to a gun fight.

 

[MegaMissingno]

One of the biggest gripes I have about this game is how restricted dashes are, or approach options in general really. The most natural form of movement turns out to be the most terrible. You can dash attack, which sucks for a lot of characters. You can dashgrab, which is typically slow and punishable. You can up-smash, which usually doesn't hit a target directly in front of you. That's all you get. Dashdancing for better timing and positioning is gone. JC grabs to avoid ****ty dashgrabs are gone. Obviously there's no wavedashes to access your full standing arsenal either. And now there's no DACUS to get some better range that actually can hit what's in front of you.

Please, explain to me how this is somehow supposed to be a good thing.

 

[Flamecircle]

One of the biggest gripes I have about this game is how restricted dashes are, or approach options in general really. The most natural form of movement turns out to be the most terrible. You can dash attack, which sucks for a lot of characters. You can dashgrab, which is typically slow and punishable. You can up-smash, which usually doesn't hit a target directly in front of you. That's all you get. Dashdancing for better timing and positioning is gone. JC grabs to avoid ****ty dashgrabs are gone. Obviously there's no wavedashes to access your full standing arsenal either. And now there's no DACUS to get some better range that actually can hit what's in front of you.

Please, explain to me how this is somehow supposed to be a good thing.

Look back one page at thinkaman's thing on depth and breadth.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

As a competitive community we can accept this patch because it's the Versoin 1 for Wii U, but if Nintendo takes this too far we can simply agree to play with V1 for the rest of the game's life cycle. Patches can be removed.

I'm not concerned. If new AT's that deepen the game get removed very frequently not allowing a stable metagame, I bet you anything tournaments will decide to stick with V1 from here on out.

I really hope your not seriously suggesting this.

This is everyday to stagnate and alienate the community than actually moving forward.

 

[Tagxy]

One of the biggest gripes I have about this game is how restricted dashes are, or approach options in general really. The most natural form of movement turns out to be the most terrible. You can dash attack, which sucks for a lot of characters. You can dashgrab, which is typically slow and punishable. You can up-smash, which usually doesn't hit a target directly in front of you. That's all you get. Dashdancing for better timing and positioning is gone. JC grabs to avoid ****ty dashgrabs are gone. Obviously there's no wavedashes to access your full standing arsenal either. And now there's no DACUS to get some better range that actually can hit what's in front of you.

Please, explain to me how this is somehow supposed to be a good thing.

Approach options are not restrictive in this games environment, people assume this as told by melee players used to melee mechanics. Offense and defense work in tandem based on how many options youre given for either one, and people fail to consider that the "approach options" from melee they list (dash dancing, wave dashing, etc.) often add significantly to its defense as well. In general people underrate how defensive melee is. Smash 4 actively reduced fairly strong defensive options that existed in both brawl and melee, and contributed to each games defense to a greater extent then the lack of "options" often listed. These include projectiles, ledge invincibility, long swords, etc. So yeah, it really isnt a problem in smash 4.

But let's be real here dude, Snake looked really cool when he DACUS'd. Can we at least agree on that?

Change is hard when we've become accustomed to something we started to enjoy. I dont know if it's a condolence, but the era of patches is give and take and assuming theyre done well (and keeping in mind the previous discussion on glitches) will be of greater benefit then detriment. Though smash games wont be the same as the were pre-patch era there's plenty of other reasons to enjoy what it will provide.

As a competitive community we can accept this patch because it's the Versoin 1 for Wii U, but if Nintendo takes this too far we can simply agree to play with V1 for the rest of the game's life cycle. Patches can be removed.

I'm not concerned. If new AT's that deepen the game get removed very frequently not allowing a stable metagame, I bet you anything tournaments will decide to stick with V1 from here on out.

This isnt a casual/competitive dichotomy. Glitches should be patched out for many legitimate competitive reasons. There was an entire discussion about that in this thread, particularly last page, but Im not sure if you actually care about that...

 

[Thinkaman]

In case you guys haven't heard yet, me and Big O just verified that Vectoring is gone.

 

[IzE]

In case you guys haven't heard yet, me and Big O just verified that Vectoring is gone.

I watched a stream of the wii u earlier today and saw a lucario get fsmash on battlefield from luigi, he died in the 110-120ish zone. I thought it was a change for luigi or poor play on the lucario, but that is quite interesting.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

In case you guys haven't heard yet, me and Big O just verified that Vectoring is gone.

Wait what?

It got removed?

 

[Thinkaman]

Wait what?

It got removed?

Yup.

 

[AccountsDept]

I really like the chess analogy that someone gave earlier. Some of you - and I suppose this is especially directed at the people who are heavily into Project M and Melee - believe that a ****-ton of technical options make a fighting game fun. That's perfectly fine, it's really a "to each their own" sort of thing. But having gotten into physical competitions, I have a different perspective. Where I first saw a "lack of options," I can now see a series of styles and techniques, all stemming from the basics. With Smash, as with chess, you don't necessarily need a crazy amount of technical stuff. You have some 50+ characters with varying styles of play, some with totally unique mechanics, like a KO meter (Little Mac), management of MP (Robin), Aura (Lucario) and some with simpler differences, like ranged vs rushdown.

You already have a ridiculous amount of options that come from the game being played vanilla. That's not to say that some ATs don't spice things up - they certainly do - but the game is no less deep without them. The issue here seems to stem from the belief that a huge quantity of techniques makes the game deeper. Sometimes quantity correlates with deepness, but it's not necessarily the cause. I've learned how simple things like changing the speed, spacing or timing of a particular action can lead to wildly varying effects. You have a wide variety of stages to take advantage of, too.

What I'm trying to say in this overly long post is that Smash in its most basic form still has a lot of options. It's depth doesn't necessarily come from those options, but when you use them and why. Calling Smash 4 less deep because of a lack of ATs is ridiculous to me. But that's just my opinion.

 

[LancerStaff]

As a competitive community we can accept this patch because it's the Versoin 1 for Wii U, but if Nintendo takes this too far we can simply agree to play with V1 for the rest of the game's life cycle. Patches can be removed.

I'm not concerned. If new AT's that deepen the game get removed very frequently not allowing a stable metagame, I bet you anything tournaments will decide to stick with V1 from here on out.

Mewtwo players won't be happy at all, that's for sure.

Just like how unfair it's when you lose against a SF player who uses a stick and you used pad, right? Nobody is stopping you from playing with the superior controller. Don't bring a knife to a gun fight.

It's a little different when it's a 200$ system instead of a 60$ controller, and Nintendo is against this kind of thing generally. A C-Stick is enough of a privilege already.

One of the biggest gripes I have about this game is how restricted dashes are, or approach options in general really. The most natural form of movement turns out to be the most terrible. You can dash attack, which sucks for a lot of characters. You can dashgrab, which is typically slow and punishable. You can up-smash, which usually doesn't hit a target directly in front of you. That's all you get. Dashdancing for better timing and positioning is gone. JC grabs to avoid ****ty dashgrabs are gone. Obviously there's no wavedashes to access your full standing arsenal either. And now there's no DACUS to get some better range that actually can hit what's in front of you.

Please, explain to me how this is somehow supposed to be a good thing.

I think it's better without the DACUS, and I'm not alone. If you liked it, well, too bad. Glitches in competitive multiplayer games can die in a fire.

Yup.

Heh? I'm no pro or anything, but I'm pretty sure I VI'd a bunch in Glory yesterday. Have seen it yourself?

 

[Prawn]

Vectoring being gone also bummin me out

Edit: so am I preferably DIing like brawl thinkaman? Seems to work well but could be a placebo

 

[MegaMissingno]

So then should we just get rid of the c-stick altogether too while we're at it? Let's cripple the game just to cater to people who want to play on a wiimote and can't deal with the rest of us using retreating aerials. It's only fair, right?

 

[LancerStaff]

So then should we just get rid of the c-stick altogether too while we're at it? Let's cripple the game just to cater to people who want to play on a wiimote and can't deal with the rest of us using retreating aerials. It's only fair, right?

That's a bit different. The C-Stick has been a part of the game for a while, and considered to be a main imput to many. The DACUS was just some random glitch that effected very few characters.

 

[MegaMissingno]

So? Your reasoning for getting rid of it is that it's unfair to those without a c-stick. How is that any different from the rest of the c-stick's functions? The fact that it affects fewer characters should mean it's less of a big deal to leave in, not more.

 

[Mac2492]

Realize that "Smash has always been that game we loved to discover unintended techniques for" is not a valid argument for keeping them. I'm sure many of the people agreeing with their removal also liked them. Smash has always been designed as a fighter that is easy to pick up and play. Even though the competitive community has discovered countless techniques that run opposed to this philosophy, it's clear that Smash was never meant to have the array of complex options we've all grown accustomed to. In a sense, we have been playing the game "wrong" for years. This is perfectly fine. As a fellow player, I am not going to tell you how you should enjoy a game. What doesn't make sense is then turning around and yelling at Nintendo for producing sequels and patches with the same design philosophy. These advanced techniques we've gotten used to were unintended and it's ultimately Nintendo's decision if they are worth keeping or not.

A more valid discussion is "should Nintendo allow benign glitches to stay because they might create a more interesting game". There are plenty of options without advanced techniques, and these are the options they want you to consider. A lot of you feel strongly because they've always stayed, but glitches like Robin's third jump have no reason to stay aside from "they're interesting and not game-breaking". If you really think about it that's not an argument for why they should keep it in but rather why they could keep it in. It doesn't make sense to say Nintendo is ruining the game by removing benign glitches, especially when they have well-targeted balance changes in the same patch. We also can't assume they'll remove every technique discovered simply because they removed some.

Having more options is not necessarily better. Advanced techniques definitely provide interesting options that can make the game more interesting, but if your enjoyment of the game depends on the inclusion of unintended techniques then that is what you should criticize Nintendo for. A lot of arguments here fall along the lines of "why fix what isn't broken" when this situation is really "why leave something broken when it doesn't need to be fixed". The latter situation situation is tricky because you can compliment or fault Nintendo regardless of what action they take.

 

[LancerStaff]

So? Your reasoning for getting rid of it is that it's unfair to those without a c-stick. How is that any different from the rest of the c-stick's functions? The fact that it affects fewer characters should mean it's less of a big deal to leave in, not more.

C-stick effects more players. Not only is it considered necessary in competitive play, most casuals make use of it also. DACUSing was not only a painful imput for some, it also resulted in degenerate play for some and generally replaced an option for others. It's basically just tech for tech.

 

[thesage]

SNIP

Aiming Ness' recovery in melee, a natural part of the game, is harder for me than wavedashing or l-canceling and I was probably in the top 20 Ness players (lolololololol NESS). Smash is known for being easy to pick up and play but hard to master. While they removed pkt wallriding in brawl, they did add in double pkt2 in smash 4 which adds a completely new layer of complexity to his recovery. Aiming pkt2 takes years of practice. Wavedashing takes a month to be able to do consistently in a match and about a year of using it to fully understand its implications. L-canceling is hard to do consistently, but that's mostly to do with the pace of melee and shield aiming, not the actual technique itself. As an aside, l-canceling was intentionally programmed into the game in melee.

 

[Gidy]

I would rather have DI over vectoring anyday. Whats the fuss about?

 

[Terotrous]

So then should we just get rid of the c-stick altogether too while we're at it? Let's cripple the game just to cater to people who want to play on a wiimote and can't deal with the rest of us using retreating aerials. It's only fair, right?

Inb4 dumb strawman statement about sideways wiimote.

Nailed it,


C-Stick Smash, by itself, does not open up anything you cannot do with other control schemes. It may make it somewhat simpler or more consistent but if you don't have a problem using the stick it doesn't hurt you to go without. The lose of DACUS is the loss of a legitimate option that WILL hurt your potential to play competitively.

 

[MegaMissingno]

Doing an aerial in one direction while moving in another is truly impossible without a c-stick, and I don't see anyone complaining about that. DACUS is possible to do without it, just easier with the stick.

If you want to use these techniques, just go get a controller with two sticks. You've got plenty of options to pick from, Gamecube, Classic Controller, Pro Controller, even the Gamepad. You're free to handicap yourself on a Wiimote if you truly want, but you should not expect that everyone else needs to be dragged down to your level. Why are we seriously entertaining the notion that the game needs to be dumbed down just for a few stubborn folks who insist on using bad control schemes? That's their problem.

 

[Mac2492]

Aiming Ness' recovery in melee, a natural part of the game, is harder for me than wavedashing or l-canceling and I was probably in the top 20 Ness players (lolololololol NESS). Smash is known for being easy to pick up and play but hard to master. While they removed pkt wallriding in brawl, they did add in double pkt2 in smash 4 which adds a completely new layer of complexity to his recovery. Aiming pkt2 takes years of practice. Wavedashing takes a month to be able to do consistently in a match and about a year of using it to fully understand its implications. L-canceling is hard to do consistently, but that's mostly to do with the pace of melee and shield aiming, not the actual technique itself. As an aside, l-canceling was intentionally programmed into the game in melee.

I'm not quite grasping your point here. I'm not concerned with how difficult advanced techniques are to perform. A lot of these techniques are even balanced and fit into the game quite well. I like advanced techniques.

I'm not saying Smash should be devoid of complexity. I'm saying people are taking the removal of unintended mechanics the wrong way. Again, if glitches are required for the enjoyment of this game then Nintendo has done something wrong. The game is balanced with the assumption that these glitches do not exist. In the case of a non-harmful glitch, Nintendo has the option of embracing it then balancing around it in the future or simply removing it. I think both options are reasonable.

 

[LancerStaff]

Doing an aerial in one direction while moving in another is truly impossible without a c-stick, and I don't see anyone complaining about that. DACUS is possible to do without it, just easier with the stick.

If you want to use these techniques, just go get a controller with two sticks. You've got plenty of options to pick from, Gamecube, Classic Controller, Pro Controller, even the Gamepad. You're free to handicap yourself on a Wiimote if you truly want, but you should not expect that everyone else needs to be dragged down to your level. Why are we seriously entertaining the notion that the game needs to be dumbed down just for a few stubborn folks who insist on using bad control schemes? That's their problem.

C-stick just overrides the control stick for a sec for the aerial, so you will slow down anyway. Nothing stopping you from pressing the buttons faster.

 

[Captain Norris]

One of the biggest gripes I have about this game is how restricted dashes are, or approach options in general really. The most natural form of movement turns out to be the most terrible. You can dash attack, which sucks for a lot of characters. You can dashgrab, which is typically slow and punishable. You can up-smash, which usually doesn't hit a target directly in front of you. That's all you get. Dashdancing for better timing and positioning is gone. JC grabs to avoid ****ty dashgrabs are gone. Obviously there's no wavedashes to access your full standing arsenal either. And now there's no DACUS to get some better range that actually can hit what's in front of you.

Please, explain to me how this is somehow supposed to be a good thing.

Up airs and neutral airs are amazing approaching options for most characters.

 

[metaXzero]

C-stick just overrides the control stick for a sec for the aerial, so you will slow down anyway. Nothing stopping you from pressing the buttons faster.

Completely false. Jump without pressing in either direction with the analog stick and use F-air/B-air and you will see that you don't go in either direction when using the C-stick. There is no slow-down or directional drifting with C-stick aerials.

 

[MegaMissingno]

C-stick just overrides the control stick for a sec for the aerial, so you will slow down anyway. Nothing stopping you from pressing the buttons faster.

Wrong. C-stick is completely separate, and does not affect your movement or momentum. Aerials are widely considered the single most important use of the c-stick thanks to this. Trust me, I'm a Puff main. I live and breathe c-stick aerials.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/C-stick#Techniques

 

[LancerStaff]

Completely false. Jump without pressing in either direction with the analog stick and use F-air/B-air and you will see that you don't go in either direction when using the C-stick. There is no slow-down or directional drifting with C-stick aerials.

Wrong. C-stick is completely separate, and does not affect your movement or momentum. Aerials are widely considered the single most important use of the c-stick thanks to this. Trust me, I'm a Puff main. I live and breathe c-stick aerials.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/C-stick#Techniques

It's not giving you the whole story. Look at SDI for a moment. Holding up and then tapping down on the C-stick will register as tapping up and down really fast. C-stick imputs a direction very quickly and very weakly, and yet overrideing the control stick.

 

[metaXzero]

It's not giving you the whole story. Look at SDI for a moment. Holding up and then tapping down on the C-stick will register as tapping up and down really fast. C-stick imputs a direction very quickly and very weakly, and yet overrideing the control stick.

It's not very weakly. It's not at all. You do not move at all with C-stick aerials back or forward.

No matter how good you are with your hands, you cannot replicate C-stick aerials with the analog stick and the A button without moving in the direction of your attack.

 

[LancerStaff]

It's not very weakly. It's not at all. You do not move at all with C-stick aerials back or forward.

No matter how good you are with your hands, you cannot replicate C-stick aerials with the analog stick and the A button without moving in the direction of your attack.

It's worth nothing the C-stick has been nerfed in SSBU: It's now a constant direction + A imput. You don't see much of anything in the old games because it was much quicker, but now it's only as fast as you are.

 

[<π]

Thisvideo I made a few months back is pretty relevant; I feel; to the current discussion.

One optimal choice actually limits depth. You need multiple choices with meaningful trade offs for depth to exist.

Nerfing the one optimal choice makes way for other choices to inch there way in.

 

[Teran]

I really like the chess analogy that someone gave earlier. Some of you - and I suppose this is especially directed at the people who are heavily into Project M and Melee - believe that a ****-ton of technical options make a fighting game fun. That's perfectly fine, it's really a "to each their own" sort of thing. But having gotten into physical competitions, I have a different perspective. Where I first saw a "lack of options," I can now see a series of styles and techniques, all stemming from the basics. With Smash, as with chess, you don't necessarily need a crazy amount of technical stuff. You have some 50+ characters with varying styles of play, some with totally unique mechanics, like a KO meter (Little Mac), management of MP (Robin), Aura (Lucario) and some with simpler differences, like ranged vs rushdown.

You already have a ridiculous amount of options that come from the game being played vanilla. That's not to say that some ATs don't spice things up - they certainly do - but the game is no less deep without them. The issue here seems to stem from the belief that a huge quantity of techniques makes the game deeper. Sometimes quantity correlates with deepness, but it's not necessarily the cause. I've learned how simple things like changing the speed, spacing or timing of a particular action can lead to wildly varying effects. You have a wide variety of stages to take advantage of, too.

What I'm trying to say in this overly long post is that Smash in its most basic form still has a lot of options. It's depth doesn't necessarily come from those options, but when you use them and why. Calling Smash 4 less deep because of a lack of ATs is ridiculous to me. But that's just my opinion.

Okay I know it wasn't you who first mentioned this but I'm sick of this nonsense about these newer games being more like chess because they're slower and so require more thought, apparently.

First of all, this is a flat out lie. Just because the games give you more time to think, that doesn't make them inherently more thoughtful. Whoever believes Melee players think the game is better due to LOLBUTTONS is delusional. You could make l-cancelling automatic and wavedashing less awkward and they'd probably like that change. The best players would still be the best without a doubt.

But I digress, the reason why the chess analogy is totally wrong is because chess is am inherently aggressive game where you pressure your opponent into making bad moves, the defensive element comes from making sure your moves aren't punishable within the next turn or two.

Brawl and Smash 4 are hugely more defensive in their approach, which is fine if you like that style of play, but to liken them to chess and say Melee is just mindless tech skill is flat out wrong.

On the topic of patches, I just really hope they don't make it a regular occurrence, otherwise it negates the point of even committing to learning stuff.

 

[Metal B]

Okay I know it wasn't you who first mentioned this but I'm sick of this nonsense about these newer games being more like chess because they're slower and so require more thought, apparently.

First of all, this is a flat out lie. Just because the games give you more time to think, that doesn't make them inherently more thoughtful. Whoever believes Melee players think the game is better due to LOLBUTTONS is delusional. You could make l-cancelling automatic and wavedashing less awkward and they'd probably like that change. The best players would still be the best without a doubt.

But I digress, the reason why the chess analogy is totally wrong is because chess is am inherently aggressive game where you pressure your opponent into making bad moves, the defensive element comes from making sure your moves aren't punishable within the next turn or two.

Brawl and Smash 4 are hugely more defensive in their approach, which is fine if you like that style of play, but to liken them to chess and say Melee is just mindless tech skill is flat out wrong.

On the topic of patches, I just really hope they don't make it a regular occurrence, otherwise it negates the point of even committing to learning stuff.

You totally misunderstand him!
He isn't compering Chess with Smash 4, because both games are slow. His point is, that both games give you a limit choice of simple options, but a infinity ways of expressing yourself with them. He contrast this to the more complex options in Melee, which only befits some characters and specific game-style. A simple, balanced and big pile of different characters give the player a much better feel and options of challenges and creating a own play-style, then a specific, complexes and limit choice of options like Melee.

Both gameplay-styles of Melee and Smash 4 are unique and fun for different reasons. Melee is about the learning and mastering of the complexity. While Smash 4 can become the exploring of your play-style and finding the right character to express yourself.

 

[Nobie]

Okay I know it wasn't you who first mentioned this but I'm sick of this nonsense about these newer games being more like chess because they're slower and so require more thought, apparently.

First of all, this is a flat out lie. Just because the games give you more time to think, that doesn't make them inherently more thoughtful. Whoever believes Melee players think the game is better due to LOLBUTTONS is delusional. You could make l-cancelling automatic and wavedashing less awkward and they'd probably like that change. The best players would still be the best without a doubt.

On reddit smash recently there were some comments from some Brawl players and tournament organizers that opened my eyes to the perceived differences in Brawl and Melee in terms of being "chess-like" etc. Essentially, what they said was that when it comes to MID-level competitive players (meaning not Mew2King or Nairo or whoever), reading was a more important skill for Brawl players because of how many defensive options are in that game.

A mid-level Melee player going up against another mid-level opponent (and sometimes even a high-level one) can defeat their opponent through mostly sheer tech skill. This is basically what Toph and Scar's conversations about "Falco Master" refer to.

In Brawl, however, the main (only?) way to differentiate yourself from the middle of the pack is by being able to out-predict your opponent over and over and over again due to the mechanics of that game. If you can't read the mind of your opponent consistently and persistently you're basically not going to win.

Thus, while mind games are a part of Melee for sure, especially at the highest levels of competition, for a lot of Melee players (and haters), it becomes easy to think of the game as Fast Button Pressing Bros. Melee. These players never get access to the realm of mind games, which is more accessible in Brawl.

Also no one ever uses the term "chess-like" accurately in any context or referring to any game Smash or otherwise. It's just a way to get people who don't understand something to take into consideration the idea that something is strategic.

 

[-LzR-]

I like it when people say Brawl is more about mindgames when Melee requires so much more thinking and has much more depth while also being more technically demanding. They shouldn't remove techs that aren't big exploits, instead they should build around them, maybe they should have given more characters access to dacus or reduce the effectiveness of the best ones.

 

[LancerStaff]

I like it when people say Brawl is more about mindgames when Melee requires so much more thinking and has much more depth while also being more technically demanding. They shouldn't remove techs that aren't big exploits, instead they should build around them, maybe they should have given more characters access to dacus or reduce the effectiveness of the best ones.

Being technically demanding is a good thing now? You can't even punish rolls in SSB4.

 

[-LzR-]

Being technically demanding is a good thing now? You can't even punish rolls in SSB4.

That has more to do with rolls with ******** than being technically demanding.

 

[LancerStaff]

That has more to do with rolls with ******** than being technically demanding.

No, not really.