Morph Ball Bomb Discussion

[RaigothDagon]

I would advise to not try this on Ness though. His fair recovery is just too ridiculously good. I hate that rising fair with a passion. Probably anyone with very good horizontal air-movement would be tough to implement this on

Yeah, I would have to agree with you. Anyone that can get through that utilt you pretty much have to perfectly time and space your bomb and let it do most of the work. Backing off from the ledge and seeing if they roll seems to be the best thing to me in that case. That way its still about 50/50 that you will be able to punish them.

 

[Jasona]

best i've got is to use bombs for the first or second hit of a combo and to use them to change the flow of the match. to break predictability
bombs are weird, which makes them cool. if you're confused, just imagine what your opponent is thinking ; what the hell is that!!!
they're just awkward, but kinda fast. they feel useful, but i haven't been back long enough to explain it or demonstrate the combos in vid form

 

[LanceStern]

Thats very true jasona and we've discussed it. It especially throws off close range attackers. Its unnerving for them cause the MBB has multiple hit boxes.

I'm seeing some useful MBB flow-changing tactics at battlefield. Jump and lay one or two bombs on top of the lower platforms, and camp it with zair or fair or missiles. If the opponent tries to come up and fight you, the MBB explodes and either disturbs their assault or could even push them off onto the floor for a jab lock!

Or follow them down with a plasma shot. It's really fun

 

[Cherry64]

Hmm. no you can't say I'm not trying here.
I honestly think bombs are getting us no where, but here's something I'm wondering about.

Stick a bomb down the opponent should prolly be in the air or something decently high above you, or just ********) and then take a few steps back and do this

any thoughts?

 

[Mikha'el]

Sounds doable Cherry, the MBB should draw their attention enough to set it up. Ive done it a couple of times but not on purpose. Finally, something to add to my playstyle, thanks!

 

[IsmaR]

Define "no where," Cherry.

Somewhat obvious thing, but using bombs near the ledge is pretty useful. Bomb > them falling off the edge > Fully Charge Shot, Bomb > F-air > spike, Bomb > N-air/Z-air/Missile gimp/stage spike, etc.

Sounds doable Cherry, the MBB should draw their attention enough to set it up. Ive done it a couple of times but not on purpose. Finally, something to add to my playstyle, thanks!

I absolutely love your username.

 

[LanceStern]

We was just discussing that on the previous page Ismar.

It's stuff I have to start testing, implementing in the game. Really to see what works and does not work

 

[Cherry64]

I mean, that bombs will not make samus Viable, they may make her a bit better but not enough for it to really count. What I think will end up happening is there will be a cool new way to play as Samus, making bombs be Missiles to a campy samus. (Aka like, the bomb style uses bombs a lot to do stuff)

 

[_Pope_]

Not sure if this has been said anywhere, but I have found that it is pretty useful to lay a morph ball bomb while you are standing on the moving platform on smashville, moving away from your opponent. The ball is not effected by the platform and remains stationary until the platform moves from underneath it, then it falls to the ground. The awkward physics of this sometimes throws people off, and its cool because the platform is retreating you, which gives time to charge up or missile spam or something.

I would say that I use bombs a bit to much, but their so **** fun, lol. I also like using this trick to drop bombs when the platform is floating over the edge, if my opponent is already hanging from it. Its just one more thing they have to deal with while recovering, and its also safer if your not in the right position to chase them for the spike or something.

 

[M!ND]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZM3D3AFWNk

experimenting

 

[Xyro77]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZM3D3AFWNk

experimenting

As ive said before,

1. WHEN you drop a bomb, you are just asking to get hit.
2. WHEN you drop a bomb, there is almost ALWAYS a better option than the bomb.
3. TRY it in real matches, it doesnt work as well as it does in your head.



However, i do feel that in the future there WILL be hope.

I THINK i found out how to start the bomb animation and then cancel it out to make my self slide(kinda like super wave dash in melee, just not as far). I wont make a vid of it yet cause i DO NOT have it down 100%. Trust me, if this works, samus will now have a WD type method of moving across the stage into F-smash and f-tilt.

 

[M!ND]

1. move away
2. If your bomb set up works and it leads into something better than there wasnt a better option
3. I use it in real matches all the time

 

[Xyro77]

1. move away
2. If your bomb set up works and it leads into something better than there wasnt a better option
3. I use it in real matches all the time

you cant just move away. the foe KNOWS you cant do anything out of the bomb animation AND your bomb is ona timer. they WILL(and do) fly at you with full force to hit you.

there are no bomb set-ups that are better than what you COULD do without bombs.

if you have some real matches to show i would love to see them.

 

[M!ND]

will do

all foes will def take the chance of running straight at u....especially if you thought ahead before planting your bomb, + spaced and TIMED your bomb correctly....planting a bomb will not only stop your opponent from coming at you it will force your opponent to rethink his/her current strategy especially if they are at the other side of the stage and missles / charge shots are flying at them...as soon as you land you can instantly jump and plant another bomb (di'ing away)if they do start chasing you....now they got a 2nd bomb thats even closer to them to worry about....if your opponent is in the air you can easily do a full jump and start planting bombs that would be in their way before they land, you can also stall your time in the air by using bombs again forcing your opponent to rethink his/her strategy and maybe getting a few arials in. Samus is all about opponent reactions to her weapons and thinking ahead to punish them. Kind of like Snake...

 

[Cherry64]

Okay. Things samus' NEED to do to get ANYTHING from bombs. TIME it, when does it blow up should be our first priority. get the Effing timing down. Secondly use it as bait, maybe we can make a wall of bombs, assuming we know the timing and how to use them properly. timing is the key for these bombs guys, they do not blow up right away like melee (too friggen bad ) Also, i'm rather excited to see what Xyro's got for us. Can't believe he's actually trying to make bombs work :\

EDIT: n00b get in on this, it's kind of like snake boii. Only main difference is that he can throw them, We cannot throw our bombs, and how we place bombs is extremely BAD. I was thinking like snake too though, Set the bombs up know the timing so that we could set up traps and be able to set up whole new **** combo's. I see a lot of combo's coming from BF just because we could set the bombs on platforms.

 

[IsmaR]

If you think Bombs are useless, then you are useless. Unless you are Xyro.

 

[Cherry64]

Har Harr. If I really thought they were useless I wouldn't be posting in her

 

[Xyro77]

Also, i'm rather excited to see what Xyro's got for us. Can't believe he's actually trying to make bombs work :\

i feel that while bombs are useless(right now) they MIGHT be unlocked later on in this games life. I feel i have done it. I need to test it in a real match(this saturday is HOBO 17) and then i can determine if its a DO-ABLE tech. IF so.......holy ****.

 

[_Pope_]

I am quite excited to see what you have discovered, xyro. I remember spending literally months in melee trying to perfect super bomb dashing and all the charged shot and down smash tricks that came with it.

As for normal bomb play, heres a list of situations that I believe they are useful in:

1. When recovering from the upper right/upper left corners of the stage, to stall the opponent out of his jumps if he chases after you. This requires good knowledge of how far out the character can safely chase you, but when the opponent must go back to the ledge then this is usually a good time to recover safely.

2. When your opponent is spaced about the length of Samus's roll dodge, a retreating bomb can be dropped to create a ground 'wall,' forcing your opponent to charge in before the bomb explodes or go to the air. Again the opponent's character matters (obviously NOT good with MK and his stage sweeping tornado or something), but this is usually a good option if you want some time to charge/spam, or if you want to try to force your opponent to attack from the air.

3. When your opponent is on the ledge and you do not feel safe going on the offensive, a dropped bomb that lands either right off or right on the edge can cause players trouble because they have the added worry. Also, by doing this you are put above and to the left/right of the opponent, which allows for quick zairs for arial recovering opponents, uairs for roll recovering opponents, and a bomb to the face/ any follow up for a get-up recovery.

4. this is VERY situational, but dropping a bomb when near an opponent and bomb hopping to the other side can lead to nice jab>bomb> anything you want. I would not recommend this, but safely getting into a situation where their is a bomb on the opposite side of your opponent, and you are on the other side, often forces the opponent to retreat/ allows you to punish.

5. In the air I sometimes use a bomb to simply 'hop' over a threatening attack from a grounded opponent coming up at you.

These are the main ones i could think of right now, but I know their are many other ways to use them as well. Generally bombs just allow for some creative situations, and they are by no means useless in my opinion, unless they are spammed.

 

[PK-ow!]

Good ****, Xyro.

I think I found a way to modify the Bomb hop. It seemed I jumped out of it sooner than usual. It might have been an illusion though so I'm trying lots of things.


I went back to Smashbros.com, to see just what Sakurai said about Samus. For anything relevant.
It occurred to me that he didn't say Bomb at all. In particular, he didn't say "Press down + B to lay a bomb, and after a time it will explode." He didn't nail 'the official source' down to such a statement. Maybe because that statement would be false?

I think the very basics of how this attack can be used are not known yet. I don't want to think 'advanced tech'. I want to think "make this bomb do something a bomb would do."


Something that confuses me is, why can't Samus run backwards out of a Bomb drop, even if you cancel the lag? It seems you can do anything but turn around right after. Or is it just my timing? I don't see how running forward and running backward would be different for my thumb, so...

 

[Bimz]

Good ****, Xyro.

I think I found a way to modify the Bomb hop. It seemed I jumped out of it sooner than usual. It might have been an illusion though so I'm trying lots of things.

Raigoth Bomb Cancel probably. Sakurai didn't purposely give bombs any hidden potential. We have to find out things on our own.

 

[Cherry64]

he didn't give any thought to anything that could come of a moveset lol. Hence why certain chars got mad good attacks and other chars got ***** by the fist of evil.

Going on what I said earlier, Timing is key, If we place a bomb down on the bottom floor of BF and one above and to the left a bit and do that neat trick where we fall down after laying a bomb, the bombs might be able to combo into each other. little tricks like that could make bombs semi-useful, I shall try to use that kind of stuff more.

Also turns out bombs do NOT gimp yoshi unless he's over like 120% and it's gotta be the burst of fire at the end, so the timing is horribly hard to do and it's near pointless because N air gimps around there too so does a super missile.

 

[LanceStern]

he didn't give any thought to anything that could come of a moveset lol. Hence why certain chars got mad good attacks and other chars got ***** by the fist of evil.

Going on what I said earlier, Timing is key, If we place a bomb down on the bottom floor of BF and one above and to the left a bit and do that neat trick where we fall down after laying a bomb, the bombs might be able to combo into each other. little tricks like that could make bombs semi-useful, I shall try to use that kind of stuff more.

Also turns out bombs do NOT gimp yoshi unless he's over like 120% and it's gotta be the burst of fire at the end, so the timing is horribly hard to do and it's near pointless because N air gimps around there too so does a super missile.

I have a bunch of videos on my Wii from Battlefield, Delfino and Jungle Japes and the usefulness of bombs.

I just can't get them up. No wifi, no sd card, dial up.

 

[Rohins]

uair -> bomb for momentum cancel recovery.

morph ball gives you complete directional control, this compliments how her other projectiles cut her horizontal momentum (shooting homing missiles / uncharged blasts while off level)

I forgot who mentioned this but bombs block ICs ice blocks.

Morph ball makes your hitbox smaller making it harder to hit you with projectiles.

Raigoth bomb sets up for non-guaranteed grabs.

This is all I can think of off the to of my head.

And yeah...I started playing again.

 

[M!ND]

he didn't give any thought to anything that could come of a moveset lol. Hence why certain chars got mad good attacks and other chars got ***** by the fist of evil.

Going on what I said earlier, Timing is key, If we place a bomb down on the bottom floor of BF and one above and to the left a bit and do that neat trick where we fall down after laying a bomb, the bombs might be able to combo into each other. little tricks like that could make bombs semi-useful, I shall try to use that kind of stuff more.

Of course he gave thought of what could come of a move set....if he didn't then this game would be a giant mess of stupid...everything has its uses even jiggs rest and sing...you just have to learn how and when to use them...as for bombs, you are correct TIMING is key and that wall of bombs you were talking about in your last post is completely possible, you can even make a ramp of bombs that are lined up at a diagonal similar to this " / " all you have to do is time your jump after you lay your 1st bomb it kind of makes a stair case of bombs and is pretty cool (usefull? idk)....if you time your bomb correctly in the air combined with good di and samus floatyness you can increase the time you are in the air by doing bomb jumps...why is this usefull? Off stage its godlike to gimp returning opponents, on stage it can be used to come down safely after a attack that knocked u up into the air....you can also wait in the air for opponents that are currently falling down.

Bombs scare people...use that fact to your advantage ...


I think people are thinking to hard about bombs and are missing very obvious uses.

 

[LanceStern]

Well wee covered those uses back in the first few pages m!nd. We're trying to find something more.

I think I mentioned earlier Rohins, that I use the Raigoth Bomb Technique to go to an immediate hyphen smash or pivot grab after the bomb drop. It LOOKS a little bit like the super wavedash from Melee.

I had a lot of trouble dashing out of the MBB, but then I found that after you lay the bomb, as soon as Samus in ball form touches the ground, do like a Hadoken motion in the direction you were facing(down, diagonal down/forward, forward) and you should sprint out of the MBB everytime. Then add an usmash or grab or whatever to it, or even do it near the ledge and come off the ledge with a plasma shot!

If you want to pivot out of the MBB, just do the hadoken in the direction opposite your facing. Unfortunately you cannot run backwards out of the MB, just pivot.

 

[Rohins]

If you want to pivot out of the MBB, just do the hadoken in the direction opposite your facing. Unfortunately you cannot run backwards out of the MB, just pivot.

264 gets you to run backwards, is that what you're saying? You can 264 when landing from the air too to run backwards.

 

[LanceStern]

I don't get what you mean by "264" ?

 

[NO-IDea]

The analog stick is a clock. You should know the rest.

 

[Cherry64]

rohins lost me there too. so you dub tap direction 264 and you run backwards?? moonwalk style? :\

 

[LanceStern]

That doesn't seem to make sense, is this a european clock or something?


If nothing else, Samus would jump when I try to go to "2"

 

[NO-IDea]

This is true... XD

Well, then just do the Hadoken motion opposite of where you're facing. I don't see any real applications to this yet so I don't care as much =P

 

[Cherry64]

think of joy stick as 360 degrees. go from there, finding 264 though will not be easy it'll be -----> but a little below that

 

[LanceStern]

When you do the hadoken opposite your facing, Samus will pivot out of the MBB, but can't run backwards.

That alone can be useful though.

 

[Xyro77]

As much as i love all of you guys(and girls) talking about this, the tech may not actually BE REAL. I can only do it on RARE instances. I may just record my self for like and hour and the split second i pull one off ill post it. On the flip side, i need all of you to try it out on your own as well(please). You KNOW you are getting close if you see samus buffer into a dash. Again, if you did it right, you will see samus SLIDE(standing up) about the length of her standing grab.


As for a name(it must make sense) i would like it to be ANYTHING but SUPER WAVE DASH. Because samus does not even have a basic WAVE DASH. To be honest, lets get this tech down before we throw out names. BTW, if this tech is real. I want FULL 100% credit. The name can be chosen by you guys, just please make sure the name isnt something dumb like "the xyro slide!!!!1111!1!!!"





PS: i STILL think bombs are useless but i ask that ALL you you work with buffering and trying to do HADOUKENS out of bombs and ****. SOMETHING will happen at some point.

 

[Bimz]

are you holding down when you lay the bomb??

 

[Cherry64]

more details Xyro, hadoken meaning Down then Side. but is there anything else you've been doing?

 

[Xyro77]

are you holding down when you lay the bomb??

more details Xyro, hadoken meaning Down then Side. but is there anything else you've been doing?

Drop a bomb

right as you are landing(about to come out of the ball) buffer a HADOUKEN in the direction you were facing when you started the bomb.



off topic find: you can drop a bomb and move to right and left using your C stick. neat but not helpfull

 

[IsmaR]

I think I did one after buffering dashes coupla' times. I managed to slide(not sure if it was as far as my grab range), then do a grab out of it. I must admit it looks pretty hawt.

 

[Bimz]

would you slide further than if you dash out of the bomb?