Moderator Mafia - Now known as Loli Kawaii no desu forums, scum wins!

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Is that at the end of the game Day or irl day, mod?

end of game day.

 

[Pluvia]

Right if I'm catching this:

Guus and TB think John's scum.
Chibo and me prefer Kantrip
John thinks TB is scum(?)

So why is everyone ignoring my question about Kan? I'm definately missing something here.

 

[T-block]

Sorry Pluvia - I thought you were asking for why Kantrip was scum. That's why I asked Joey to do it. Here's why I don't think Kantrip is scum:

Kantrip - A bit hesitant to use the lime green with this being only D1, but there is a player who would get it, it would be Kantrip. He's definitely my strongest town read at the moment. Joey's case made some points of worth, but I take them as null because I have seen Kantrip do it as town before. He has since stepped up his play by quite a bit. He's worked with me to hunt scum (Pluvia incident) while putting in effort to hunt scum by himself - I can see that he is thinking logically, and his play has been fairly consistent. He is also coming to his own conclusions, showing independent thought.

Some of that has diminished due to his lack of good play D2, but a lot of the sentiment still remains.

Simply put, there are better lynch options for toDay.

 

[Kantrip]

Shoutouts to Acrostic being awesome.

I'm going to be re-reading everything in depth and typing up a bunch of notes. Would it be preferred if I posted them segments at a time (like do each page separately), or dump it all at once when I'm done? Or perhaps I'll just not share it and just post the things that I find important? I'm not sure at this point.

 

[John2k4]

Why would you hold information back?
--

Oh there was something of TB's I had to address...lemme go grab that.

 

[John2k4]

I've given you at least two opportunities now to talk about Acrostic's flip, a direction you so strongly wanted town to take earlier in the Day. Why have you ignored those opportunities?

Because of someone's (can't remember name) explaining that speculating NKills is not much good. I'd be fine looking into it, but with a deadline coming up, probably wouldn't get far.

 

[Kantrip]

Well I would obviously hold anything back that has to do with role speculation, first off. Anything that would either help scum or hinder my efforts to scumhunt are things that one would naturally want to exclude from posting. I guess I'll have to see what ends up being in my notes, because they're going to be a "thoughts as I read" type of thing, a page at a time.

 

[John2k4]

Well I would obviously hold anything back that has to do with role speculation, first off. Anything that would either help scum or hinder my efforts to scumhunt are things that one would naturally want to exclude from posting. I guess I'll have to see what ends up being in my notes, because they're going to be a "thoughts as I read" type of thing, a page at a time.

Understandable. I await the notes then.

 

[Kantrip]

Page 1

Some useless banter occurs in the beginning of this game; some fun little game predictions and some crazy joking RVS accusations. However, one key event stands out from the first page of our game: T-block’s VT claim. Going over it again (knowing Raziek’s flip) will hopefully make the intentions there more clear than they were the first time through. We’ll see what happens as I read through. Raziek tells T-block that if he’s using what he’s doing as a crumb Raz will have him “strung up by his ears”. T-block responds in his #25 by saying it isn’t a crumb. Rather, he calls it a “breadloaf”. This line, in particular, baffles me:

“Yeah it's all good... if I die, it's just a VT. If I live, scum is screwed.”

There is literally no town intent in this bag of WIFOM. One could argue he is trying to draw a Night Kill as a VT by saying if he lives scum is screwed. However, someone who is trying to draw a Night Kill wouldn’t go around saying that they are a VT. Perhaps he is claiming VT in an act of self-preservation, due to a powerful PR or just the sheer fact that he wants to not get Night Killed? Wait, that doesn’t make sense either because he’s also telling scum that they are screwed if they leave him alive. In the end, the only conclusion that can be drawn from this is that it is meant to confuse. It is pure WIFOM and serves no purpose for a townie, who would have no right trying to confuse the rest of town in the first place, and the only two scenarios I will accept are that he was joking around or that he is scum.

The next post is Raziek calling T-block out on the copious amounts of WIFOM that T-block introduced. Then T-block says only scum would be bothered by it; followed by a whole bunch of other WIFOM filled questions. I really emphasize with Raziek so far, as he’s calling T-block out on being incredibly anti-town at this time. Immediately T-block used it all to twist Raziek’s words. T-block called Raziek out because there was an implication in the following statement:

“…now scum CAN leave you alive…”

I mean, this is pretty dumb. T-block’s 38 was really all like this: Jumping at the “implications” and the various semantics behind what Raziek was saying. Not only was T-block twisting what Raziek was saying, but he was also neglecting to answer it.

Page 1 Summary – Raziek calling T-block out on being anti-town, T-block twisting Raziek’s words and neglecting to answer questions directed at him whilst confusing town in the process with his WIFOM crap.

Page 2

So the T-block VS Raziek continues, folks. The first thing I see as I load up the next page is T-block accusing Raziek of being anti-town with his questions. I’d just like to say that the only reason Raziek’s questions aren’t helping town is because they’re stemming from something that didn’t help town (T-block’s claim). T-block began the problem, and he can’t be calling Raziek out on it now. rPSI jumps in with

“T-block’s post was neutral. It’s a silly WIFOM for everyone”. Congrats rPSI, you’ve read the surface of the game’s content and posted a one-liner. Good work. Anyways, T-block’s answers consist of “all this was true before I claimed”, trying to pass off his claim as something that should have no effect on anything. It should be fairly obvious that this is completely stupid, as outright claiming VT definitely affects the mindsets of scum as they approach the option of NKing you. I don’t like how T-block went about answering this. I had hoped he would pass it off as pre-game joking and move on. Oh yeah, and I tossed my vote on him for pressure around this time.

John’s post interests me. He tells T-block that he doesn’t know why he’s worrying about Raziek’s posts that happened in the pre-game. John is under the impression that pre-game social posts don’t mean anything. John, if you have your role PM during the pre-game social, it can mean whatever it wants. T-block claimed VT during the pre-game, that phase in the game suddenly holds a lot of weight.

John also asks Raziek why he’s worrying about pre-game posts. Interesting, John’s asked the same thing of both of them at this point, and Raziek was an indy SK. I’m pretty sure I can conclude from this that John and T-block are not on a mafia team together.

I like how rPSI told me to weigh in on T-block VS Raziek because not doing so was causing the game not to progress. Because he hasn’t done anything yet in the game, and that includes weighing in on T-block VS Raziek.

John and Raziek both ask me why I’m writing T-block off as town already, while T-block says “He just wants to see how I’ll react to being called town ”. 50 points for T-block’s analysis skills.

Page 2 Summary – I conclude that John is not on a mafia team with T-block due to how he asked both him and Raziek why they were concerned with pre-game posts. Nothing else really happens in this page that’s new or exciting.

Page 3

Yeah re-reading Raziek’s posts on this page match with his indy flip pretty well . I like how he starts telling me I’m thinking shallow and when I say “no, I’m posting shallow” he responds with the whole “Aha! So you admit you’re posting shallow!” It’s like… uh yeah I just said it bro #91 struck me in a weird way both when I first saw it and now during my re-read as well. He tries to end the discussion right there and brings up that he’s had more content than TPK will all game. I was like… what? Why am I wasting my time on Raziek when we already lynched him?

Anyways… Raziek has a good point later when responding to me. I tell him that his questions have not had any pro-town intent, and Raziek responds saying that T-block’s intentions haven’t been pro-town either. Right now, that is something I can agree with. Raziek didn’t try to deny that his intentions weren’t helping town. Instead, he said the truth, which is that T-block is being anti-town.

“Maybe I just felt like claiming. Maybe I did have a reason to claim. If I did, then revealing the reason would defeat the purpose, wouldn't it?”

How exciting! More T-block WIFOM! Personally, I don’t like the way T-block has been laying out his responses. He’s being very cut-and-dry. At least, I think that’s what I’m trying to get at. He’s responding with small, concise points, or saying “implications this, implications that”, or he’s using chain of logic that he misconstrues to make it sounds really logical when it really isn’t, as he is manipulating words before he even starts the chain. #98 is a good example of this. T-block’s #98 again has no town intent. The only intent behind it is shutting down Raziek while making him look scummy in the process. Scum T-block would probably consider Raziek his biggest threat, and he would gladly take this opportunity to make Raziek look scummy. From T-block’s perspective (if he is scum), Raziek is town at this point. The fact that Raziek’s flip ended up being indy, and this not a “mis-lynch” per-se is inconsequential. From a scum point of view, it was “pushing a mis-lynch”.

What I get from the last line of T-block’s #98 is that he was attempting to gain sheep. He asks John (the most susceptible to sheeping) what he thinks of what T-block has said, and says anyone else can answer EXCEPT me or Raziek. So he wants everyone’s opinions on what he has to say about Raziek. Here’s the statement, by the way, for reference:

“Raziek claims he could make an actual push on me from what has happened so far, but implies that he doesn't want to - this suggests that his play is not focused on hunting scum”

I’ll just say now that this is a horrid statement and I disagree with it in its entirety. Let’s just see what T-block may have been trying to accomplish, though. In asking for everyone’s opinions on the statement, it is likely he was just trying to get other players involved and try to get some reads on other people in the game. The problem with this, though, is that the statement focuses on Raziek’s play supposedly not revolving around hunting scum. A bold statement there, and it’s pretty clear by the way he didn’t want Raziek or me responding that he hoped to get some people agreeing with this (because I know Raziek and me wouldn’t have). What Raziek did is claim that it was possible to make a push on T-block based on things that had happened already. Never did Raziek say he intended to do that, nor did he say he would agree with the push, nor did he say he thought T-block was scum (at this point in time, at least). I’m assuming T-block is smart enough to know this much, since he already got told by Raziek that he didn’t think T-block was scum. But Kantrip, what does this all mean?

It means that the purpose of this statement was to manipulate weaker town players.

The back-and-forth with T-block and Raziek finally ends on this page, too. T-block asks Raziek if “trying to get out of RVS” is a good enough reason for his VT claim. T-block initiated the retreat from discussion. Noting this now. I also noted how willing Raziek was to say “yeah sure”. Raziek being indy lines up with this half of the conversation perfectly. T-block being scum would make the other half line up perfectly too. That’s right, I’m calling this conversation IvS.

Let’s end this page on the right foot. A vote for Raziek by Vinyl.? Sure, that will do. That will do.

Page 3 Summary – I think Raziek VS T-block was IvS. Well, the Raziek indy part is already mod confirmed, so basically T-block looks scum so far. He’s manipulating town, ignoring questions, creating WIFOM scenarios, and being generally anti-town.



Three pages of in-depth analysis is good for now. I'll read more later, and the amount of detail I go into may decrease as time goes on. Just a heads up.

But yeah.

 

[T-block]

Uhh... do you want me to respond as you post, or just at the end?

 

[Kantrip]

Whichever you prefer.

 

[Jim Morrison]

John are you going to get back to mt 776 today or just leave it as it is?

 

[Xiivi]

DtJ Glyphmoney replaces RocketPSIence.

Vinyl prodded.

 

[DtJ Glyphmoney]

Hey nerds I'm replacing in get ready for some MUSCLES

vote: Vinyl

Made me take him off my ignore list, clearly scum.


No I'm not going to read, if you want me to know something post it.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Raziek was a serial killer and T-block lead his lynch but some people feel his case is based off ****ty reasons.

 

[Kantrip]

You can read my super duper #809, Glyph! That's the first 3 pages in a (rather large) nutshell. I'll be doing more of those for every page until I catch up.

 

[DtJ Glyphmoney]

Kantrip if I could hug someone through the internet, you would be the first recipient.

 

[CT Chia]

Cool replace

I'll be all caught upsies tomorrow

 

[Vinylic.]

Hey nerds I'm replacing in get ready for some MUSCLES

vote: Vinyl

Made me take him off my ignore list, clearly scum.


No I'm not going to read, if you want me to know something post it.

Thus, the challenge begins.

unvote
Vote: DtJ Glyphmoney

Start your explanation.

 

[DtJ Glyphmoney]

Hahahahahhahahahahhahha

 

[T-block]

Okay, first of all, I'd like to clear one thing up. There are two distinct parts to my push on Raziek. The first part can be summarized in my 448. These points are relatively weak, but enough for me to base a D1 lynch on. They are basis for strong suspicion, but nothing conclusive, and I never claimed they were. You'll notice that at this point in the game, I'm moving my vote around my lynch pool. I am willing to lynch Raziek at this point, but not 100% certain that he is scum, and my behaviour up until this point reflects that.

Then there's the second part, which comes as the result of two events that convince me that he is scum. The first is the vote on Acrostic for what he supposedly considered a scumslip. At this point, Raziek is looking to be the likely lynch, and the vote looked incredibly desperate. I would absolutely expect town Raziek to be able to see that what Acrostic said was not a tell, despite what he was saying post-lynch. It is at this point that I am 100% confident in Raziek being scum, as voiced in my 538. The second event is his claim of bulletproof. His play did not match that of BP at all, and I know Raziek is a strong advocate for play matching the role, which he himself said in early game. These two have me absolutely convinced that Raziek is not town (although I did think he was mafia rather than indy at this point, mostly because I was expecting 3 mafia in this setup), and that is once again reflected in my play. The nature of my push changes when he votes Acrostic.

I'm bringing this up because I think some of you have the impression that I gained my confidence in Raziek being scum from the earlier points in 448, when that's not the case at all. Also, I've been seeing a lot of focus on the fact that indy SK has will to scumhunt as well, and that indy looks like town to mafia, which is true. But once again, note what the convincing tells were. A vote on Acrostic that reeked of self-preservation, and a claim that does not line up with his play. These are tells that imply anti-town alignment in general, rather than just mafia. Indy SK is also desperate to do anything to avoid the lynch. He also needs to lie when he claims.

So, keep this in mind when you read. Raziek WAS pinned properly. Kantrip, you are reading everything under the assumption that I'm scum, but don't forget to get the other side of the picture - read under the assumption that I'm town, and realize that it's the more likely explanation.

 

[Kantrip]

I will T-block. The original convo between you two has always reeked from all angles to me, though.

I'll read things over from multiple perspectives.

 

[T-block]

Page 1

Some useless banter occurs in the beginning of this game; some fun little game predictions and some crazy joking RVS accusations. However, one key event stands out from the first page of our game: T-block’s VT claim. Going over it again (knowing Raziek’s flip) will hopefully make the intentions there more clear than they were the first time through. We’ll see what happens as I read through. Raziek tells T-block that if he’s using what he’s doing as a crumb Raz will have him “strung up by his ears”. T-block responds in his #25 by saying it isn’t a crumb. Rather, he calls it a “breadloaf”. This line, in particular, baffles me:

“Yeah it's all good... if I die, it's just a VT. If I live, scum is screwed.”

There is literally no town intent in this bag of WIFOM. One could argue he is trying to draw a Night Kill as a VT by saying if he lives scum is screwed. However, someone who is trying to draw a Night Kill wouldn’t go around saying that they are a VT. Perhaps he is claiming VT in an act of self-preservation, due to a powerful PR or just the sheer fact that he wants to not get Night Killed? Wait, that doesn’t make sense either because he’s also telling scum that they are screwed if they leave him alive. In the end, the only conclusion that can be drawn from this is that it is meant to confuse. It is pure WIFOM and serves no purpose for a townie, who would have no right trying to confuse the rest of town in the first place, and the only two scenarios I will accept are that he was joking around or that he is scum.

It's null as an alignment tell and you know it. Don't even try to make it out to be anything more than that.

I can list how it helps town though:

• it serves as a platform for serious discussion in RVS
• it leaves mafia dealing with WIFOM on whether to kill my slot
• confusion caused can help lead to reads as well - it's not always a bad thing, especially at the beginning of D1 when it's not distracting from anything

The next post is Raziek calling T-block out on the copious amounts of WIFOM that T-block introduced. Then T-block says only scum would be bothered by it; followed by a whole bunch of other WIFOM filled questions. I really emphasize with Raziek so far, as he’s calling T-block out on being incredibly anti-town at this time. Immediately T-block used it all to twist Raziek’s words. T-block called Raziek out because there was an implication in the following statement:

“…now scum CAN leave you alive…”

I mean, this is pretty dumb. T-block’s 38 was really all like this: Jumping at the “implications” and the various semantics behind what Raziek was saying. Not only was T-block twisting what Raziek was saying, but he was also neglecting to answer it.

Sigh... I'll try to explain again and maybe you'll be able to understand.

This all comes down to finding out why Raziek reacted to strongly to my claim. He claims he is worried about scum having more options because of my claim. I want to know how my claim changes anything.

That's all it is.

Why am I explaining this for the eighteenth time this game?

Page 1 Summary – Raziek calling T-block out on being anti-town, T-block twisting Raziek’s words and neglecting to answer questions directed at him whilst confusing town in the process with his WIFOM crap.

What questions did I neglect to answer? The only ones I can see are the ones where he asks me who the threats and easy mislynches are. I made my reasoning clear for not answering those. Do you disagree with that reasoning? Unless you're referring to my not responding to Raziek's questioning my claim, but answering those questions would have reduced a lot of the claim's utility. I know you of all players can understand this, Kantrip.

Page 2

So the T-block VS Raziek continues, folks. The first thing I see as I load up the next page is T-block accusing Raziek of being anti-town with his questions. I’d just like to say that the only reason Raziek’s questions aren’t helping town is because they’re stemming from something that didn’t help town (T-block’s claim). T-block began the problem, and he can’t be calling Raziek out on it now.

Hang on - how did I start the problem? Raziek's questions did not stem from my claim at all - they are an independent conversation line started by Raziek. And they were indeed anti-town, as I explained several times.

Anyways, T-block’s answers consist of “all this was true before I claimed”, trying to pass off his claim as something that should have no effect on anything. It should be fairly obvious that this is completely stupid, as outright claiming VT definitely affects the mindsets of scum as they approach the option of NKing you. I don’t like how T-block went about answering this. I had hoped he would pass it off as pre-game joking and move on. Oh yeah, and I tossed my vote on him for pressure around this time.

Wrong. I never attempted to pass anything off as pre-game joking, and I challenge you to show where I did.

You are mixing things up - "all this was true before I claimed" refers to the fact that scum had the option of leaving me alive and asking why I wasn't dead in order to cast suspicion on me. This was true after I claimed VT. This was true before I claimed VT. I was NOT trying to pass off my claim as something that made no difference - I was trying to show that Raziek's reason for reacting strongly to my claim was garbage.

I'll do Page 3 tomorrow. I'm liking you less and less as I go through this post, Kantrip, and it's feeling more and more like a waste of time to respond to this. A lot of what you relay is simply inaccurate, and many of the points you bring up have already been addressed, often several times.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Then there's the second part, which comes as the result of two events that convince me that he is scum. The first is the vote on Acrostic for what he supposedly considered a scumslip. At this point, Raziek is looking to be the likely lynch, and the vote looked incredibly desperate. I would absolutely expect town Raziek to be able to see that what Acrostic said was not a tell, despite what he was saying post-lynch. It is at this point that I am 100% confident in Raziek being scum, as voiced in my 538. The second event is his claim of bulletproof. His play did not match that of BP at all, and I know Raziek is a strong advocate for play matching the role, which he himself said in early game. These two have me absolutely convinced that Raziek is not town (although I did think he was mafia rather than indy at this point, mostly because I was expecting 3 mafia in this setup), and that is once again reflected in my play. The nature of my push changes when he votes Acrostic.

I'm inclined to be on T-block's side on this one. Raziek was doing terrible at that point and those 2 points made him look scummy (as in, desperately trying not to get lynched) as hell. This however doesn't make me believe T-block is so much more town, since you could just as easily be scum profiting of Raziek's slip-ups, presenting us an incredibly easy (as in, very scummy looking) lynch target.

I hope you understand what I mean; You're not town just because you lead a lynch on an indie. Both town and scum can find someone slip up (be it town acting dumb and acting scummy, or an indie trying to stay alive) and lead that lynch.
I still don't know what to make of T-block's slot. I'd first like to see John lynched though, noticing how long it takes for him to try to defend himself from my points.

 

[T-block]

I'm fine with not being called town for leading the Raziek lynch.

I just want everyone to stop being so paranoid and realize that while it's POSSIBLE the push on Raziek could be scum motivated, it's also very possible it was town motivated, and there is nothing to suggest that it's scum over town.

If you're going to say "T-block isn't confirmed town for pushing Raziek because as mafia he would think Raziek is town", that's fine.

If you're going to say "T-block is mafia because he led a mislynch on Raziek", that's garbage.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

[yt]bzifssrNTFw[/yt]
It is Day 2.4

1. Vinyl. [1] DtJ Glyphmoney
2. John2k4 [2] T-Block, Mr. Wiggles the Worm,
3. vVv Chibosempai [0]
4. Pluvia [0]
5. Mr. Wiggles the Worm [0]
6. JO_OEY [0]
7. DtJ Glyphmoney [1] Vinyl.
8. T-Block [0]
9. Kantrip [1] JO_OEY,

Note Voting: vVv Chibosempai, Pluvia, John2k4,

Deadline is set to December 4th 11:59 PM CST. It takes 5/9 to lynch.

 

[DtJ Glyphmoney]

Very curious about the general population's opinion on Vinyl

 

[Jim Morrison]

Legend: Anyone who has Wheat or more "red" colours, I'd be fine with lynching if it happened Today. Yellow I'd need some convincing on and greens wouldn't be lynched unless they make a nice slip-up

1. Vinyl. ​

- I would seriously put this guy in dead-on red if it wasn't for his blatantly disgusting apathy towards the game. This is something I can only attribute to the most useless vanilla townie. The only things he ever does is come up with ridiculous reasonings for voting someone and when asked about it, disappears just as fast.
If mafia has any honour, they'll NK Vinyl because he is just making it TOO easy to win for them.

u8ahdfhguiashah

 

[T-block]

Completely null.

 

[DtJ Glyphmoney]

Guus what you described actually sounds way more like bad mafia than it does town to me.

You should vote him with me.

 

[T-block]

His play is pretty damn close to Housepets where he was town, Glyph.

I'd vote him at deadline if needed, but John really needs to die.

 

[DtJ Glyphmoney]

I'm aware of his housepets play, I replaced him. Doesn't mean he's going to be any less of a detriment to town.

T-Block, tell me about John. I'm sure there's a post somewhere you've made about why he's scum, convince me.

 

[T-block]

And as I said, I'd vote at deadline, but there are better options.

Post 798. Make sure to read the quotes in context. They occur just two posts apart.

 

[DtJ Glyphmoney]

Completely null.

His play is pretty damn close to Housepets where he was town, Glyph.

I'd vote him at deadline if needed, but John really needs to die.

Is he town or null then? I'm confused.

And as I said, I'd vote at deadline, but there are better options.

Post 798. Make sure to read the quotes in context. They occur just two posts apart.

Will do

 

[Jim Morrison]

Glyph, Day 1 was the one I was very willing to lynch inactives, but no one likes that .

And then Day 2 is too late to lynch someone based solely on not being active.

 

[DtJ Glyphmoney]

My wanting to lynch Vinyl has nothing to do with activity

 

[Jim Morrison]

My reasoning that he's not my top lynch target, is that he's playing TOO ******** to be mafia. Mafia has someone guiding him, to make him play somewhat better.

I couldn't believe him being mafia.

In fact, if I was next host, I'd ban him from my game because I'm so salty at his play, it's not even funny to play with.

 

[DtJ Glyphmoney]

Thats a whole mess of WIFOM. I know if I were scum, I would take care to be damn sure he posted the same way as last time so people would reach the same conclusion you just put forth.

To be direct, he's a wildcard due to lack of mafia skill. His actions could be classified as dumbtown or dumbscum, and we would be none the wiser. The sooner we get him out of the way, the sooner we can start getting somewhere in this game.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Just wondering, you said you haven't read up on the game. Yet you come to the conclusion that Vinyl should be lynched ASAP, without even knowing what else we have concluded Today and Yesterday.

You know how ridiculous it looks for you to join, not read and then shout that Vinyl needs to be lynched for being a wildcard.

 

[DtJ Glyphmoney]

I don't need to read, I know how Vinyl is and stand by killing him ASAP