Mission Complete!- Fox Discussion Thread

[Sinister Slush]

Megafox is probably gonna rise up soon.

Probably?
He's been like top 10 in our scene since Brawl, and outside of the Diddy Kong's keeping him down sometimes he's prolly top 5 in our state right now.

He also been winning tournaments down here.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL-ZZxiBKUOzi5IFwP5sjnDyEkoHxiSJtA

 

[Ffamran]

Gee, I've been saved by Fox. How swell.

Hey guys and girls, the Falco boards are starting their Fox matchup discussion. Here's a link to the thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/ssb4-falco-matchup-discussion-05-fox-pretty-smooth-flying-fox.389521/.

I don't know if this was the right place to put this... >_>

 

[luke_atyeo]

Probably?
He's been like top 10 in our scene since Brawl, and outside of the Diddy Kong's keeping him down sometimes he's prolly top 5 in our state right now.

He also been winning tournaments down here.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL-ZZxiBKUOzi5IFwP5sjnDyEkoHxiSJtA

I know he's been doing well in your state, but I was talking on a global scale, someone who can make top 16 at a tourney like apex (he didn't go to apex did he?)

 

[HI5]

Advice for when the enemy is shielding right next to the edge?

Often my friend will be playing Ness, and when he gets to high percent (over a hundred), he just sits on the edge and shields. This has been really tough for me, he seems to be in a very safe position
If I run up and grab him and he *doesn't* attack me, where do I throw him? What's stopping him from just returning to the edge again and shielding? If I run up and attack, he just back-throws me, which kills at pretty low percent.

How do I finish him?

 

[Ffamran]

Advice for when the enemy is shielding right next to the edge?

Often my friend will be playing Ness, and when he gets to high percent (over a hundred), he just sits on the edge and shields. This has been really tough for me, he seems to be in a very safe position
If I run up and grab him and he *doesn't* attack me, where do I throw him? What's stopping him from just returning to the edge again and shielding? If I run up and attack, he just back-throws me, which kills at pretty low percent.

How do I finish him?

You could Up Throw and bait out a Uair or Bair. Perhaps a Forward Throw to Fair or Bair? I don't know about Back Throw, but Down Throw might work into something. I don't play Fox a lot, but I know that you could throw/launch someone, empty hop or get to where they'll land and Side Smash or Up Smash. I've landed on top of Fox's Up Smash several times and it sucks because of how fast and powerful it is.

Oh, and have you tried watching videos of Fox vs. Ness? You could pick up on things that other players do against that matchup.

 

[Timbers]

Advice for when the enemy is shielding right next to the edge?

Often my friend will be playing Ness, and when he gets to high percent (over a hundred), he just sits on the edge and shields. This has been really tough for me, he seems to be in a very safe position
If I run up and grab him and he *doesn't* attack me, where do I throw him? What's stopping him from just returning to the edge again and shielding? If I run up and attack, he just back-throws me, which kills at pretty low percent.

How do I finish him?

This is kind of a bs thing that Ness can do. The worst thing that happens to him from shielding on the edge is he takes a bit of chip damage from your throws. As Fox your edgeguard game is pretty trash and you have 0% pressure from throws at high percents, and everything outside of Fox's bair can be shieldgrabbed and punished by Ness bthrow.

Ness gets huge benefits from bthrow due to great edgeguard game against Fox recovery, if not a full stock from sitting on edge of stage. Fox gets chip damage from throws.

All you can really hope is that you've taken a substantial percent/stock lead and can force him to approach you due to timer. Hopefully this changes as people explore the 1 frame vulnerability on ledgesnaps.

You could Up Throw and bait out a Uair or Bair. Perhaps a Forward Throw to Fair or Bair? I don't know about Back Throw, but Down Throw might work into something. I don't play Fox a lot, but I know that you could throw/launch someone, empty hop or get to where they'll land and Side Smash or Up Smash. I've landed on top of Fox's Up Smash several times and it sucks because of how fast and powerful it is.

Oh, and have you tried watching videos of Fox vs. Ness? You could pick up on things that other players do against that matchup.

It's actually very hard to follow and punish Ness' landing. He's got some good aerial mobility, a huge midair jump, and a very safe fair to deter your advances.

 

[EndlessRain]

I tend to sit back and spam laser. It wears down shield surprisingly fast. What a lot of players will do then is switch to PSI Magnet.
If you're careful with the distances, you can set it up so that you can close the gap during its endlag (this is risky as if you have the distance wrong you will run into a grab and die but it's an option).

 

[Timbers]

I tend to sit back and spam laser. It wears down shield surprisingly fast. What a lot of players will do then is switch to PSI Magnet.
If you're careful with the distances, you can set it up so that you can close the gap during its endlag (this is risky as if you have the distance wrong you will run into a grab and die but it's an option).

:/

lasers have more endlag than magnet (also magnet windbox) sooooo.

 

[EndlessRain]

Yeah but they won't drop the magnet until you stop shooting. You fire one and close before they react. Kinda sketchy, I know, but it has worked for me, so I thought I would share it. I'm not recommending it as a go-to option in that situation or anything lol

 

[ArikadoSD]

Shoutouts to the Fox player Abel, played him online like ~15 matches, I won most of them but he was very decent with Fox. One of my more enjoyable games :]

edit: I was the Sheik with the tag Arikado lol

 

[Disaster Master]

What are some options against Captain Falcon? I'm struggling against every one I fight.
Or some options against uair strings in general.

 

[Timbers]

What are some options against Captain Falcon? I'm struggling against every one I fight.
Or some options against uair strings in general.

Be very conservative with your airdodges when being juggled. Nair can trade with uair if you're within Falcon's hurtbox.

Falcon's one of the few matches I play differently and passively. His jab stuffs a lot of our options, and most of what we do is unsafe on hit at lower percents. Ideally you'd want to play passively and bait any commitments or approaches from him.

 

[Nu~]

Hello fox mains! We are currently discussing the fox matchup over at the pac-man thread:
Pac-Man Vs. : Matchup Discussion Thread- Fox (lasers and hydrants and fruits, oh my!)

Will you take the mission?

 

[Disaster Master]

Be very conservative with your airdodges when being juggled. Nair can trade with uair if you're within Falcon's hurtbox.

Falcon's one of the few matches I play differently and passively. His jab stuffs a lot of our options, and most of what we do is unsafe on hit at lower percents. Ideally you'd want to play passively and bait any commitments or approaches from him.

Usually I can't even airdodge because he is able to uair me again while I'm still in hitstun. At low percents CF usually gets a few uairs in a row before I can even act.

 

[HI5]

Does anyone know what can be done about Luigi's down-b gimp? Whenever I'm recovering, my friend's Luigi follows me off the stage and does a down-b. If I up-b into it, I get caught in it, but he does it so the last hit doesn't hit me, so I'm sent downward and die immediately.

What should I be doing differently? Is there a way to DI or something so that it isn't an automatic gimp anytime I'm below the stage?

EDIT: I'm gonna copy this post to the Q&A thread as well.

 

[Ffamran]

Have you tried mixing up your recoveries? Fox, Falco, Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, Marth, Lucina, and Ike all have linear recoveries that while effective can become predictable, especially if you keep recovering low.

So, recover low, mid, and high which is probably the most dangerous one since if your opponent can bait a bad landing, then they can punish you. All of them can recover towards the ledge, up to the ledge, and over towards the end of the stage. Falco in particular can recover just by jumping if he was knocked off at mid percents - everyone else can do this too, but Falco's second jump height allows him to do this easily compared to everyone else. Ganondorf and Captain Falcon recovering with Flame Choke and Raptor Boost can be very dangerous since Ganondorf will just take a stock while Captain Falcon can dunk (meteor) you with an aerial Raptor Boost. Ike's fully charged Quickdraw can send him off the other side of the stage while making contact with Marth and Lucina's Shield Breaker is not a good idea and their Dolphin Slash easily stage spikes so they could feint a low recovery and bait someone to come down only to stage spike them.

Another thing is to attack first to make your opponent back off. Fox's Nair, Uair, Bair, or even Fair and Dair could make someone want to back off or you could use Reflector to stall and fake your opponent out. Falco can do this with Reflector since it has range alongside his attacks, challenging the others, especially Ganondorf's everything, Captain Falcon's Knee, Ike, Marth and Lucina's Fair could result in them losing a stock through stage spikes or a gimp. For one, Ganondorf and Captain Falcon's Dive could spell instant death, especially at high percents and they're next to the stage's underside or wall since the blast will stage spike them.

There's also air dodging, but considering how long Luigi Cyclone lasts, it might not be a good idea for this match up.

 

[elmike]

Does anyone know what can be done about Luigi's down-b gimp? Whenever I'm recovering, my friend's Luigi follows me off the stage and does a down-b. If I up-b into it, I get caught in it, but he does it so the last hit doesn't hit me, so I'm sent downward and die immediately.

What should I be doing differently? Is there a way to DI or something so that it isn't an automatic gimp anytime I'm below the stage?

IIRC, its a true combo if timed correctly. There is nothing you can do. And worst, if luigi does it the best possible way, it can kill you at around 90% or less. It is OP IMO

 

[fox67890]

Does anyone know what can be done about Luigi's down-b gimp? Whenever I'm recovering, my friend's Luigi follows me off the stage and does a down-b. If I up-b into it, I get caught in it, but he does it so the last hit doesn't hit me, so I'm sent downward and die immediately.

What should I be doing differently? Is there a way to DI or something so that it isn't an automatic gimp anytime I'm below the stage?

The main thing is shine stalling. I honestly think Fox's recovery is fine, but I do admit that certain characters with certain multi-hit moves could do a little trouble. That may include Luigi's cyclone.

If you're forced into a situation where you *have* to fire fox, you probably already messed up. Illusion should be your main method to recover. Shine stalling offstage throws off the enemy's timing to either hit you even further away from the stage (if they try to pursue you offstage) or to intercept you as you illusion back (if they await onstage).

edit: In regards to your earlier question about a ness next to the ledge and fear of back throw: Short hop delayed and correctly spaced bair cannot be punished due to its push back and frame data. You *must* space it well though, or you'll still die :\

I don't recommend lasers vs ness due to his PK magnet which absorbs lasers. That could work in brawl since lasers had a low commitment as they canceled from a short hop. However, it seems only standing lasers are applicable in this game. PK magnet vs committed projectiles (like our lasers), on the other hand, is low commitment for Ness because the second Ness absorbs a projectile, he can cancel his magnet with a roll, spot dodge, or jump. This means punishing his end lag isn't really an option. With that said though, only good Ness's cancel Pk magnet when they absorb something. If the person you facing doesn't do that, I guess you could spam lasers...
I'd just stick with spacing bair correctly if you want to pressure him on the ledge. Either that or focus on obtaining good stage position/control.

What are some options against Captain Falcon? I'm struggling against every one I fight.
Or some options against uair strings in general.

I mean, if you're already in the uair string, there's not too much you can do other than DI it away so you'll get hit less. If you're already above falcon and you are afraid of getting uair'd, make good use of shine stalling to throw off what ever he does.

Buuut, this could be helpful...
The uair string mainly comes from getting grabbed by falcon. So, it's important to not get grabbed. Falcon's a fast character though. I think this is a realllllly good tip, but it's all up to you what you do with it:
Fox's short hop is really good and you can fast fall it (that's obvious). If a falcon is approaching you, one thing I like to do is short hop away and fast fall as he gets close. If (s)he chose to grab, it'll wiff, and you can immediately punish with your own grab.

/\ That's not specfic to just the Falcon MU though. It works against almost everyone due to Fox's high mobility.

 

[SnowballBob33]

I kind of wonder where the top Foxes went... This board is already dead compared to other boards, formulating MU tables and all...

my bad yall ill post more

 

[HI5]

The main thing is shine stalling. I honestly think Fox's recovery is fine, but I do admit that certain characters with certain multi-hit moves could do a little trouble. That may include Luigi's cyclone.

If you're forced into a situation where you *have* to fire fox, you probably already messed up. Illusion should be your main method to recover. Shine stalling offstage throws off the enemy's timing to either hit you even further away from the stage (if they try to pursue you offstage) or to intercept you as you illusion back (if they await onstage).

edit: In regards to your earlier question about a ness next to the ledge and fear of back throw: Short hop delayed and correctly spaced bair cannot be punished due to its push back and frame data. You *must* space it well though, or you'll still die :\

I don't recommend lasers vs ness due to his PK magnet which absorbs lasers. That could work in brawl since lasers had a low commitment as they canceled from a short hop. However, it seems only standing lasers are applicable in this game. PK magnet vs committed projectiles (like our lasers), on the other hand, is low commitment for Ness because the second Ness absorbs a projectile, he can cancel his magnet with a roll, spot dodge, or jump. This means punishing his end lag isn't really an option. With that said though, only good Ness's cancel Pk magnet when they absorb something. If the person you facing doesn't do that, I guess you could spam lasers...
I'd just stick with spacing bair correctly if you want to pressure him on the ledge. Either that or focus on obtaining good stage position/control.



I mean, if you're already in the uair string, there's not too much you can do other than DI it away so you'll get hit less. If you're already above falcon and you are afraid of getting uair'd, make good use of shine stalling to throw off what ever he does.

Buuut, this could be helpful...
The uair string mainly comes from getting grabbed by falcon. So, it's important to not get grabbed. Falcon's a fast character though. I think this is a realllllly good tip, but it's all up to you what you do with it:
Fox's short hop is really good and you can fast fall it (that's obvious). If a falcon is approaching you, one thing I like to do is short hop away and fast fall as he gets close. If (s)he chose to grab, it'll wiff, and you can immediately punish with your own grab.

/\ That's not specfic to just the Falcon MU though. It works against almost everyone due to Fox's high mobility.

This is great, thanks! I guess I should just avoid ending up under the stage at all costs; that's pretty much the general consensus I've received. I'll start trying to space the bair on Ness and see how that works out.

 

[EndlessRain]

Re:Lasers on Magnet

A lot of Ness players will open the Magnet if they get shot, expecting you to continue to shoot. Quite a few will do this even if they are at very close range, purely reflexively. If you shoot a single laser, these players will take a weak hit, open the Magnet, realise you are not shooting anymore, and close the Magnet again, giving you a brief moment to hit them (Since this whole sequence often takes slightly longer than the time spent in the endlag of Blaster).
This won't work more than once or twice against one player, as it relies on the opponent instinctively opening and holding Magnet. Most players will just switch to not using Magnet if they are close enough to you for you to catch them in its endlag.
So yeah, not totally useless. But far from consistent, and not very good.

 

[luke_atyeo]

yeah, sometimes you opponent has a 100% edge guard and the only thing you can do about it is not get into that spot in the first place.

In brawl, if fox was below the ledge without a double jump, wolf had a guaranteed double shine gimp that worked 100% of the time, so the only real choice you had was to never let yourself be below the ledge without a double jump. Yeah it sucks, but if you focus on not being in that spot you can mitigate it somewhat.

 

[Mrawesome48]

I've been playing him for about 2 weeks and my FG score has plummeted. I have a decent understanding of him and i know how to do a lot of his combos but im having a lot of difficulty. These are some of the things I've noticed

1.Everyone deals more damage than he does.
2.Has no way to approach people other than the highly punishable dash attack.
3.Side B is too predictable 90% of the time it's shielded and extremely punishable as well.
4.Very few ways to kill outside of smashes and upair. Smashes are punishable as well
5.Fox has an extremely hard time punishing rolls.
6.Fox's jab is very easy to get out of and people have been able to hit me way before i finish with the kick.
7.Shield and punish is the easiest way to counter fox. Like i know shield and punish is a good tactic in general but i have never seen it screw over a char so hard.

 

[SnowballBob33]

I've been playing him for about 2 weeks and my FG score has plummeted. I have a decent understanding of him and i know how to do a lot of his combos but im having a lot of difficulty. These are some of the things I've noticed

1.Everyone deals more damage than he does.
2.Has no way to approach people other than the highly punishable dash attack.
3.Side B is too predictable 90% of the time it's shielded and extremely punishable as well.
4.Very few ways to kill outside of smashes and upair. Smashes are punishable as well
5.Fox has an extremely hard time punishing rolls.
6.Fox's jab is very easy to get out of and people have been able to hit me way before i finish with the kick.
7.Shield and punish is the easiest way to counter fox. Like i know shield and punish is a good tactic in general but i have never seen it screw over a char so hard.

1. not sure what this means... facts fox builds damage easily.
2. approach really isn't the right word. you have to space and punish. stand in front of someone and block, then see what they do. if they throw a move wrong, you easily punish and follow up. jump around and stuff. eventually they'll roll, spot dodge, whiff an attack or block which is your opportunity to react. not getting the punish on a roll or spot dodge is on you. also attacking someone who is holding their shield is also your fault (poor spacing). use more ftilt.
3. short hop illusion is nearly lagless. ground illusion is horrid. them blocking illusion does nothing but build space and require them to chase you. trust me when i say its not easy to punish illusion on block (this doesn't mean you land in front of them with illusion, i mean they block it and you appear across the map, they won't be able to punish. people can still read you though)
4. learn2trump. jab jab usmash. fsmash the ledge getup. be a pro and dsmash the one frame of vulnerability they have once they snap. weak nair -> usmash works very well
5. fox is very fast and probably the easiest at punishing rolls. dash attack and nair cover that. if they roll behind you then you have utilt perfect. punishing rolls is 50% anticipation/ 50% reaction. you just need practice.
6. matchup dependent. shiek and falcon can jab out of our jab. other than that jab jab grab works well.
7. if someone is shielding, jump behind them. fox has a high jump and fast fall speed meaning its not hard to get behind someone. that FORCES them to either turn around, roll or do something, but they cant just sit there. if they start jumping too, guess what, you win. now they arent blocking you anymore and are voluntarily putting themself in the air while you very easily reclaim the ground and play the "shield and punish" game yourself.

 

[Mrawesome48]

1. not sure what this means... facts fox builds damage easily.
2. approach really isn't the right word. you have to space and punish. stand in front of someone and block, then see what they do. if they throw a move wrong, you easily punish and follow up. jump around and stuff. eventually they'll roll, spot dodge, whiff an attack or block which is your opportunity to react. not getting the punish on a roll or spot dodge is on you. also attacking someone who is holding their shield is also your fault (poor spacing). use more ftilt.
3. short hop illusion is nearly lagless. ground illusion is horrid. them blocking illusion does nothing but build space and require them to chase you. trust me when i say its not easy to punish illusion on block (this doesn't mean you land in front of them with illusion, i mean they block it and you appear across the map, they won't be able to punish. people can still read you though)
4. learn2trump. jab jab usmash. fsmash the ledge getup. be a pro and dsmash the one frame of vulnerability they have once they snap. weak nair -> usmash works very well
5. fox is very fast and probably the easiest at punishing rolls. dash attack and nair cover that. if they roll behind you then you have utilt perfect. punishing rolls is 50% anticipation/ 50% reaction. you just need practice.
6. matchup dependent. shiek and falcon can jab out of our jab. other than that jab jab grab works well.
7. if someone is shielding, jump behind them. fox has a high jump and fast fall speed meaning its not hard to get behind someone. that FORCES them to either turn around, roll or do something, but they cant just sit there. if they start jumping too, guess what, you win. now they arent blocking you anymore and are voluntarily putting them-self in the air while you very easily reclaim the ground and play the "shield and punish" game yourself.

The 3 main problems i keep having is
1.Not being able to rack up damage,
2.Not being able to land smashes,
3.And not being able to punish rolls. (This one in particular is really screwing me)
Cause im losing pretty bad like every match opponent has both lives and barely 60%.

 

[Ffamran]

Online and offline gameplay are different, especially with dealing with projectiles and rolls.

 

[DavemanCozy]

The 3 main problems i keep having is
1.Not being able to rack up damage,
2.Not being able to land smashes,
3.And not being able to punish rolls. (This one in particular is really screwing me)
Cause im losing pretty bad like every match opponent has both lives and barely 60%.

Sounds to me like you can rack up damage fine up to 60%. When it comes to throws, D-throw is very good at low percents since it leads into the bread and butter F-air follow up. However, at higher percentages (character dependent, ~60% sounds about right), I personally prefer to use F-throw, as Fox can chase most characters along the ground and possibly corner them this way.
If you're at the edges of the stage and you get a (pivot) grab, another thing you can do is chuck them offstage: you won't be able to gimp them since Fox's edge-guarding game is very non-existent, but you still reduce their options when you send them offstage, giving you an easier time racking up more damage this way to get them to U-smash %.
I've also seen F-tilt being utilized more as a hit confirm at higher percents, since it knocks opponents in a low angle slightly above the ground, letting Fox chase them across the stage this way.

Aside from jab -> jab -> U-smash, knowing when to use a running U-smash or U-smash out of shield to punish is based on instinct.
You can ledge-trump opponents and B-air them if they're too close, or simply get back onstage if they go too far (for fear of the B-air) and wait for them to come back and punish that with D-smash, U-smash or F-smash.
When it comes to F-smash, it's the weakest of smash attacks, but it's very effective at punishing ledge-getups and ledge-jumps. It has the best horizontal range out of Fox's moves. F-smash is also good as a move to punish badly spaced moves.

Rolls are very easy to punish with Fox, honestly, his dashing speed lets him keep up with every single roll in the game (including Little Mac's) and punish it. The easiest move to use is short-hop -> side-B, do it as soon as you see them start the roll. The more effective moves, however, are F-smash, Dash attacks, and pivot (boosted) grabs, since they'll chuck your opponent at more favourable angles.

 

[luke_atyeo]

2.Has no way to approach people other than the highly punishable dash attack.
In addition to what snow said, you also have...
-Running grab
-Nair the back and of their shield and land behind them
-Nair the front of their shield and fade away so you land outside of grab range
-Jump over them and Bair the back of their shield (this ends in an autocancel so you can immidiatly turn and grab, run away, -or dash attack/running Upsmash/Fsmash if they drop shield
-Reverse aerial rush Bair the front of their shield (giving you similar followups to the above option)
-Full hop airdodge (lands without lag but still not a very good option)
plenty of approaches.

3.Side B is too predictable 90% of the time it's shielded and extremely punishable as well.
This was already covered, and its not punishable at all, the only time you'll really get punished is if they are expecting you to do it and space accordingly, for instance if you are trying to recover from off stage and the opponent backs off and waits for you in the middle of the stage, they are clearly expecting you to Side B to the middle of the stage and thus they will punish you for sure if you do it. The move is only predictable if YOU are predictable, so just keep an eye on that.
4.Very few ways to kill outside of smashes and upair. Smashes are punishable as well
nair/dashattack/grab/utilt/side B can all lead to kill setups in certain situations, also Bair is another amazing kill move, plenty of options to get the kill.
5.Fox has an extremely hard time punishing rolls.
Not really, he's fast enough to punish them easy, this is probably more of a case of you having trouble reading rolls, or you not being able to react to rolls due to online lag

covered a few of your points in red, if you are having a lot of trouble, which you clearly are, dont let it get you down, fox is one of the hardest characters to play so dont expect it to be an easy ride.

 

[M@v]

As a heads up, I unstickied the other thread http://smashboards.com/threads/try-shooting-the-bad-guys-fox-gd-q-a.324174/page-7 because these two were basically the same thread. Use this one from now on for all Fox GD/Q&A

 

[FEAR977]

How do you guys feel about the fox matchup against sheik? I am looking for someone who beats or goes even with her.

 

[Gunslinger]

How do you guys feel about the fox matchup against sheik? I am looking for someone who beats or goes even with her.

I'd argue that it's even or slightly in Sheik's favor. I'd give the advantage to Sheik only because I think her jab beats our double jab cancels and she has a more potent edgegaurd game. Not to say Fox doesn't have tools against Sheik, Fox's mobility, up-tilts, and kill setups work well as always. As long as Fox doesn't get grabbed I don't think it's really not bad. Both these characters can have trouble killing, so I feel like at high percents it becomes a game of who gets their upsmash first. I'm surprised ZSS doesn't go even with her?

 

[FEAR977]

I'd argue that it's even or slightly in Sheik's favor. I'd give the advantage to Sheik only because I think her jab beats our double jab cancels and she has a more potent edgegaurd game. Not to say Fox doesn't have tools against Sheik, Fox's mobility, up-tilts, and kill setups work well as always. As long as Fox doesn't get grabbed I don't think it's really not bad. Both these characters can have trouble killing, so I feel like at high percents it becomes a game of who gets their upsmash first. I'm surprised ZSS doesn't go even with her?

Sheik is ZSS's worst matchup. It is not terrible, but it is annoying enough to want to find another character for her. Anyway thanks for fox info. If I do not have luck with another character I'll probably be back here.

 

[Timbers]

I'm going to be beating this point to death here, but tell me why I always feel so cheesed when DA/nair/jab/utilt are negative frames on hit against fastfallers (with quick jabs) or quick nairs during the first 20% or so of a stock lol. I feel so limited in early stocks when the best damage I can pump out is 4%-9% and will always be punished with 9%-12%, and also put into disadvantage.

 

[HI5]

I'm having some trouble with Jiggly. Her aerials tend to win out over mine, and she is able to space herself well to avoid punishment. I often end up being unable to land a finisher and she reaches 150%. Any advice?

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

I'm having some trouble with Jiggly. Her aerials tend to win out over mine, and she is able to space herself well to avoid punishment. I often end up being unable to land a finisher and she reaches 150%. Any advice?

Keep in mind of how she ALWAYS has to approach and you should generally expect it in the air, now jigglypuffs attacks are low ranged and any character that can outrage her even on the ground can easily punish her out of shield. So you should try to Usmash if they hit your shield.
If they dash at you, it's either a short hop Ariel, dash attack, or grab.
Just keep in mind of how lackluster your lasers will be in this battle. She can crouch under them or jump very high to mostly avoid them. So yea you could play hit and run with your Nair,Fair,Bair as Jigglypuff players get very predictable because of her flaws, she doesn't have too many options.

 

[luke_atyeo]

Keep in mind of how she ALWAYS has to approach and you should generally expect it in the air, now jigglypuffs attacks are low ranged and any character that can outrage her even on the ground can easily punish her out of shield. So you should try to Usmash if they hit your shield.
If they dash at you, it's either a short hop Ariel, dash attack, or grab.
Just keep in mind of how lackluster your lasers will be in this battle. She can crouch under them or jump very high to mostly avoid them. So yea you could play hit and run with your Nair,Fair,Bair as Jigglypuff players get very predictable because of her flaws, she doesn't have too many options.

If the jiggs is spacing properly (which she should be because its easy) then Upsmash OoS will always miss.
Shield drop to running upsmash might work, and its worth a test, but I doubt it.
Bair is probably your go to kill move in this matchup.
Dair/Nair might combo into Upsmash at like... 90-ish%? play around with that a bit, if you can time it right, jumping over where jigg's attack is gonna be and coming down from above with Dair/Nair, you can beat out the attack and start your own chain.

 

[Timbers]

I'm having some trouble with Jiggly. Her aerials tend to win out over mine, and she is able to space herself well to avoid punishment. I often end up being unable to land a finisher and she reaches 150%. Any advice?

If the jiggs is spacing properly (which she should be because its easy) then Upsmash OoS will always miss.
Shield drop to running upsmash might work, and its worth a test, but I doubt it.
Bair is probably your go to kill move in this matchup.
Dair/Nair might combo into Upsmash at like... 90-ish%? play around with that a bit, if you can time it right, jumping over where jigg's attack is gonna be and coming down from above with Dair/Nair, you can beat out the attack and start your own chain.

Jiggs is really floaty as well. There will be plenty of opportunities where late nairs into bair/uair will present themselves. I remain frugal in nair -> usmash use as Jiggs can abuse that 1 frame rest if your setup isn't perfect. If your last hit of dair doesn't connect then it's also a free rest punish for Jiggs.

But yeah. Jiggs MU needs to be played much differently. Ground game is removed from the majority of the MU. No jabs ever or else you risk being rested. You know she'll be in the air a lot, so it doesn't hurt to fish with sh bairs. Never miss an opportunity to throw out uairs/utilts when spacing permits, as beneath her is the only real opening you'll get when she's in the air. Play passively, mix up your game with a few lasers and bairs until you open her up. It's hard to get kills on characters like Jiggs, where all of your kill setups and frametraps are negated. She may be the lightest character in the game, but against Fox she remains to be one of the more difficult to finish off. You're going to be looking at bair and uair for kills most often.

 

[G-Sword]

Yeah but they won't drop the magnet until you stop shooting. You fire one and close before they react. Kinda sketchy, I know, but it has worked for me, so I thought I would share it. I'm not recommending it as a go-to option in that situation or anything lol

Thank you. Same thing I been saying. Ness is actually pretty easy to punish with lasers just be smart about it. And fox's edge game is a lot better than what people think. If they are in the corner on the ledge. You have options. Use lasers if u know you won't get punished. If u think you will. Rush them but be smart. Mind fox them. Run, short hop, rush in, attackattack/grab or keep mind foxing them. Can also go above, use reflector to throw them off on when u will land or if you are going to attack or just get out of the way.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Is there anyone artistic here who would like to make a banner for the Fox MU thread?

I know @moyshe had a great picture in his thread, but I would like one without MU numbers.

 

[M@v]

So for your "the more you know" fact of the day, turns out ROB can't reflect Fox's blaster 3 with his side b. Found it out while playing against Chibo on Clash's stream today.