Mission Complete!- Fox Discussion Thread

[EndlessRain]

Huh. Nice.

 

[Timbers]

I really liked seeing the play come from Larry's (@DEHF ) Fox matches from this weekend: http://www.twitch.tv/ugclive/v/3900269

It was an excessive use of jab cancels and a lot of sideB's, and I think it worked out really well as it really served up Fox's strengths. They're definitely two of the safer options that Fox has, and it did a good job at keeping the pressure on. I'd really like to see jab cancel -> reverse utilt applications over grabs, as I think Fox gets a lot less out of grabs than he does with anything else. Fox gets particularly nasty strings and frametraps with utilts (which Larry highlights really well in this stream), so I'm very curious to see how far this playstyle takes the character.

Naturally this won't really work against the fastfallers of the roster, but in MUs shown here (Peach, Mario, Diddy) I really liked how far Larry could push these options.

 

[knuckles213]

How do you deal with shiek? loss a grand final set in my local area because I've never played one

 

[jahkzheng]

Been using this character a lot more lately. Partly because Star Fox Wii U has me hype for the franchise again and I've also been playing some old Star Fox games. 64, Adventures, and Assault. Really jonesing for some Star Fox DLC too. Could and should coincide with the new Star Fox game. I want my Wolf back! It's not wrong to mention Wolf in here is it? Anyways, yeah, been playing a lot of Fox just because I had to channel my Star Fox love somehow.

 

[moyshe]

Is there anyone artistic here who would like to make a banner for the Fox MU thread?

I know @ moyshe had a great picture in his thread, but I would like one without MU numbers.

I can give you guys the image with the numbers we've come up with so far, and delete the rest.

 

[Foster J.]

Just me or does the Bair have some nasty start up lag? I can't do the DEHF tomahawk into Bair 6/10 of the times I try D:

 

[Timbers]

Just me or does the Bair have some nasty start up lag? I can't do the DEHF tomahawk into Bair 6/10 of the times I try D:

Bair is slow(ish) and lacks range/disjoint. Also a very linear hitbox and you're stuck in lag for days if you're not autocancelling it. It's not a move I'd throw out often unless your opponent is throwing out sh aerials and those aerials happen to also be low in range, or you're really thirsty for the kill on the edge of the stage.

You lost me on the second half of your post. Tomahawk into bair? So an empty sh, land, sh again and then bair? Either way, you sh the aerial like you would any other.

 

[Foster J.]

You lost me on the second half of your post. Tomahawk into bair? So an empty sh, land, sh again and then bair? Either way, you sh the aerial like you would any other.

All these terms haha. Well yeah a SH going behind him to a Bair, or shield poking "safely". Maybe I just don't have the timing down, as I seem to use it too late generally haha.

 

[Timbers]

All these terms haha. Well yeah a SH going behind him to a Bair, or shield poking "safely". Maybe I just don't have the timing down, as I seem to use it too late generally haha.

Oh, yeah. You have a very small window to throw out a bair in a sh as Fox. The move is slower and Fox falls fast. You'll usually not have the opportunity to sh behind someone and bair them/their shield. It's more practical to use the back of your nair to land behind someone while applying shield pressure. You can throw out the nair late in the sh so that you're not punished.

 

[Ffamran]

Just me or does the Bair have some nasty start up lag? I can't do the DEHF tomahawk into Bair 6/10 of the times I try D:

Fox's Bair comes out at frame 8 if I remember correctly. For reference, that's twice as slow as Falco, Sheik, Mega Man, and Wii Fit Trainer's? Bair, the same speed as Ganondorf's Jab, and 2 frames slower than his Ftilt, Dtilt, and his and Captain Falcon's shared Bair speed. Fox's Bair is 1 frame slower than Ike's Bair and Ganondorf's Uair. It's not that bad - look at Lucario's frame 12? Bair which while powerful, is slow as sin.

It sort of makes sense from a real life and animation perspective since Fox does a reverse whip kick while Falco does a reverse back kick; Fox has to spin and whip his leg back while Falco just shoots his leg out. Then again, we're talking about a game where Falco and Fox don't know how to put their Blasters back into their holsters quickly. Should I mention that as pilots and I think both of them served in the Cornerian army that they should be trained in using firearms at a basic level? Oh well...

Still, Fox's Bair is good when spaced even against shields, right?

 

[Timbers]

Fox's Bair comes out at frame 8 if I remember correctly. For reference, that's twice as slow as Falco, Sheik, Mega Man, and Wii Fit Trainer's? Bair, the same speed as Ganondorf's Jab, and 2 frames slower than his Ftilt, Dtilt, and his and Captain Falcon's shared Bair speed. Fox's Bair is 1 frame slower than Ike's Bair and Ganondorf's Uair. It's not that bad - look at Lucario's frame 12? Bair which while powerful, is slow as sin.

It sort of makes sense from a real life and animation perspective since Fox does a reverse whip kick while Falco does a reverse back kick; Fox has to spin and whip his leg back while Falco just shoots his leg out. Then again, we're talking about a game where Falco and Fox don't know how to put their Blasters back into their holsters quickly. Should I mention that as pilots and I think both of them served in the Cornerian army that they should be trained in using firearms at a basic level? Oh well...

Still, Fox's Bair is good when spaced even against shields, right?

Fox's bair is frame 9. It depends on who the opponent is as to whether bair can be safely spaced on shield. Shorter characters won't allow him to hit shields in the autocancel window.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Use Fox's movement to land B-airs. It might have as much startup as a Ganon Jab, but the difference is: Ganon is grounded when using jab. Fox is moving up (jump) or down (falling) and can be therefore more precise landing it.

It's also great for edge pressure, platform pressure (you're below pressuring them on the platform above), and also has good frame advantage even on shield. Use U-tilt after using a B-air (hopefully you've auto-cancelled) to cover your back.

 

[Balgorxz]

 

[Foster J.]

Is that only doable with that custom?

 

[Balgorxz]

Is that only doable with that custom?

all fire fox and fire bird customs can do it but they don't get the wavedashing effect, only fast fire bird and flying fox get the perfect landing slide.
you can still perfect land with the other specials by doing the same input.

 

[DavemanCozy]

I remember Ffamran was talking about this slide effect with Falco's fast fire bird in the competitive impressions thread.

The perfect land is very useful with Twisting Fox, as you can imagine. Being able to cancel the landing lag of a KO move makes it very scary.

 

[Ffamran]

Fire Slide, yo. Gonna be a tool for Falco and Fox. Someone said it could be called IAF like IAP (instant action Phantasm?), but Fire Slide sounds so much cooler.

 

[Foster J.]

Fire Slide, yo. Gonna be a tool for Falco and Fox. Someone said it could be called IAF like IAP (instant action Phantasm?), but Fire Slide sounds so much cooler.

The fast firefox of Falco's is very much more suited for offensive shenanigans on stage though compared to Fox's custom options, THOUGH the wolf tornado, or 3rd Up B custom, is very powerfull and it seems it can't be SDI'd out off, and servers as a better out of shield option imo. (And it can kill )

But Falco's option is a lot stronger if you ask me.

 

[Ffamran]

The fast firefox of Falco's is very much more suited for offensive shenanigans on stage though compared to Fox's custom options, THOUGH the wolf tornado, or 3rd Up B custom, is very powerfull and it seems it can't be SDI'd out off, and servers as a better out of shield option imo. (And it can kill )

But Falco's option is a lot stronger if you ask me.

Yeah, Snow was trying to use Twisting Fox during a recent S@X, but it was wacky to say the least seeing him drift from place to place with it and not landing the move. Flying Fox not having a hitbox is what makes it less safe than Falco's Fast Fire Bird and it sort of looks slower, but I'm not sure.

Wasn't Fire Wolf more of a combo tool or was that in PM?

 

[EndlessRain]

Fast Fire Bird is a little faster than Flying Fox, but Flying Fox has quite a bit more range.
I honestly like Barrel Roll more than either because it kills most characters off the top around 90 and I like kill moves ._.
It's easy enough to land, too, since you can do it OoS and the charge hitbox comes out really fast.

 

[Ffamran]

Falco's customs choices in the barest form would be this: a slightly longer Fire Bird/slightly shorter Firefox that travels slowly and charges slowly and a slightly shorter Fire Bird that charges quickly and moves quickly. None of them kill and none of them do enough damage to be used offensively. Now, looking at it more deeply, Distant Fire Bird allows Falco to slightly go deeper since it travels half of FD's length which is slightly less than Fire Fox which travels slightly over half, but Falco doesn't need to go that deep for most of the cast and even then, it might backfire because characters with good off-stage game will gimp him or outright kill him. At the same time, you make using a Distant Fire Bird too early or being forced to use it allows for characters like Captain Falcon and Luigi to drop down and spike or ledge spike him, gimp him, or adding free damage. Fast Fire Bird makes his recovery slightly shorter vertically, but in return he gains a burst movement, the ability to use a shortened burst movement, and the ability to slide and act free out it. Between those two, I'd take Fast Fire Bird. I'd rather be able to have more options while fighting than a better recovery.

This goes similarly for Fox. Sometimes, a good offense is a good defense. With those characters, they don't have to care about recovering if they can constantly pressure and destroy their opponents. Falco functioned like that in Melee and Brawl where his recovery didn't matter much since his offensive capabilities made up for that. For other characters like Ganondorf, a better defense is a better offense. Theoretically, Ganondorf doesn't even have to move to kill you. He could stand from spawn and kill you while you keep screwing up and running into his attacks.

 

[Timbers]

Yeah, Snow was trying to use Twisting Fox during a recent S@X, but it was wacky to say the least seeing him drift from place to place with it and not landing the move.

I honestly like Barrel Roll more than either because it kills most characters off the top around 90 and I like kill moves ._.
It's easy enough to land, too, since you can do it OoS and the charge hitbox comes out really fast.

Introducing upB3 into Fox's arsenal (imo) changes how he plays a lot. We'll probably be fumbling around with getting use to it, but it's definitely for the better. upB3 is seriously good. It solves a lot of Fox's issues, most notably in that it gives him kill potential offstage and a lethal answer to getup options.

 

[Ffamran]

Introducing upB3 into Fox's arsenal (imo) changes how he plays a lot. We'll probably be fumbling around with getting use to it, but it's definitely for the better. upB3 is seriously good. It solves a lot of Fox's issues, most notably in that it gives him kill potential offstage and a lethal answer to getup options.

It'd be a funny way to interrupt someone trying to juggle you. It's like when people try to juggle someone only to get a Bowser Bomb, Yoshi Bomb, Stone, Falcon Kick, or Wizard's Foot slamming down into their face. It's not reliable, but it's hilarious.

 

[MoosyDoosy]

Fire Slide, yo. Gonna be a tool for Falco and Fox. Someone said it could be called IAF like IAP (instant action Phantasm?), but Fire Slide sounds so much cooler.

Just a nitpick. -.- IAP stood for Instant Aerial Phantasm which you used to mitigate Falco's Phantasm ending lag in Brawl.
So IAF wouldn't exactly be appropriate but I doubt that anyone would actually care.

 

[Balgorxz]

I never understood people fighting for AT names, just called it by its proper definition.
I blame wavedashing.

 

[MoosyDoosy]

I never understood people fighting for AT names, just called it by its proper definition.
I blame wavedashing.

I left the Greninja boards when they started to call their Hydro Pump AT "Wavedash".

 

[Ffamran]

Just a nitpick. -.- IAP stood for Instant Aerial Phantasm which you used to mitigate Falco's Phantasm ending lag in Brawl.
So IAF wouldn't exactly be appropriate but I doubt that anyone would actually care.

Yeah, I just didn't remember what the "A" stood for when I posted that...

I never understood people fighting for AT names, just called it by its proper definition.
I blame wavedashing.

But Fire Sliding sounds so cool!

 

[DavemanCozy]

Fox's jabs in this game are such bull for so many characters.

He basically traded shine for character specific % wobbling.

 

[EndlessRain]

Poor Shulk. Trapped at any %, and you can get a LOT of damage on him before he can DI out (if your starting position is good enough).

 

[moyshe]

So uh, I know this is a bit off topic but I completely agree with the lil mac MU now. Played a pretty decent lil mac today and got bodied 7 times in a row. It always came down to the last stock but holy **** is that MU hard for Fox.

 

[DavemanCozy]

So uh, I know this is a bit off topic but I completely agree with the lil mac MU now. Played a pretty decent lil mac today and got bodied 7 times in a row. It always came down to the last stock but holy **** is that MU hard for Fox.

I've been recently leaning more towards it being even... lol

I took into account a lot of things said in the MU discussion thread. I'm still not fully convinced if it's 55:45 towards Fox's favor, but I do see it being less of a hassle than what I made it out to be. He's easy to gimp, as long as you don't challenge his Up-B with a N-air and watch out for his counter.

With that said, I went to a tournament this past weekend and got 3rd. I got KO punched three times in Winners Finals by Frupcakes... I am very salty about that D-tilt -> KO punch 0 - death Mac has on Fox.

 

[EndlessRain]

I'm more inclined to call it 55:45 Mac. In my experience, it's one-sided in Mac's favour for a while, but once you have the momentum, you can get kills very fast. Dsmash just plains screws Mac over. So I'd say it's mostly even, but only because either player could die at a moment's notice (which makes it seem much more imbalanced than 50/50: You tend to either wreck face or get bodied, with no in-between).

 

[moyshe]

I've been recently leaning more towards it being even... lol

I took into account a lot of things said in the MU discussion thread. I'm still not fully convinced if it's 55:45 towards Fox's favor, but I do see it being less of a hassle than what I made it out to be. He's easy to gimp, as long as you don't challenge his Up-B with a N-air and watch out for his counter.

With that said, I went to a tournament this past weekend and got 3rd. I got KO punched three times in Winners Finals by Frupcakes... I am very salty about that D-tilt -> KO punch 0 - death Mac has on Fox.

It's just rediculous how early lil mac can kill fox, meanwhile I up air him at 117% and he lives. Im glad I was playing online and not at a tourney because I could rage and scream at my TV lol. Fox's ground game just cannot compete, I can handle bad lil macs with no problem but any of them that can read a roll already makes things hard.

 

[EndlessRain]

It's just rediculous how early lil mac can kill fox, meanwhile I up air him at 117% and he lives. Im glad I was playing online and not at a tourney because I could rage and scream at my TV lol. Fox's ground game just cannot compete, I can handle bad lil macs with no problem but any of them that can read a roll already makes things hard.

See, the catch is that Mac has the same problem. Once he's in the air, he's pretty much toast. You can juggle him for days. Sure, you need to watch for the counter, but if he uses it and you read it, he's going to get juggled for even longer. One dsmash at 40-50% is generally enough to kill him, so long as you're not in the dead centre of the stage.

 

[Timbers]

Fox's jabs in this game are such bull for so many characters.

He basically traded shine for character specific % wobbling.

He either has the greatest jab in the game, or the worst, depending on the MU lol.

I would personally be willing to trade his jab cancels for a gentleman's version of the jab. Most of the characters that get jab cancelled either lose to Fox anyways or are not great characters. Too many options or inherent properties (invincibility, super armor, fastfall speed, etc) let characters escape too easily, or outright punish Fox for using it.

 

[DavemanCozy]

He either has the greatest jab in the game, or the worst, depending on the MU lol.

I would personally be willing to trade his jab cancels for a gentleman's version of the jab. Most of the characters that get jab cancelled either lose to Fox anyways or are not great characters. Too many options or inherent properties (invincibility, super armor, fastfall speed, etc) let characters escape too easily, or outright punish Fox for using it.

Well, he can jab lock Diddy with it at ~40%

There's gotta be a way to SDI it or something... no?

 

[Foster J.]

Well, he can jab lock Diddy with it at ~40%

There's gotta be a way to SDI it or something... no?

ZeRo DI'd out of my Utilt shenanigans as Falcon, so if he DI's down and shields he should be able to survive that before the "lock %"

 

[Ralph Cecil]

Could anyone give me a rundown of the Fox vs Diddy mu? I know it was in the MU discussion thread, but none of the really seemed in depth and were moreso looking like they were just trying to agree on a ratio. I'm mainly wanting to know how to not give up the kill to Diddy 1st, dealing with his hitboxes in neutral, and more or less what moves I have to outright respect and let him get by with. Also there's probably a good chance that i'll probably go off of join date for how seriously I take a response tho I won't outright ignore something if it sounds right.

 

[Timbers]

Could anyone give me a rundown of the Fox vs Diddy mu? I know it was in the MU discussion thread, but none of the really seemed in depth and were moreso looking like they were just trying to agree on a ratio. I'm mainly wanting to know how to not give up the kill to Diddy 1st, dealing with his hitboxes in neutral, and more or less what moves I have to outright respect and let him get by with. Also there's probably a good chance that i'll probably go off of join date for how seriously I take a response tho I won't outright ignore something if it sounds right.

I definitely agree that the Fox v Diddy MU lacked substance. I wish it was a MU that we could have spoken about more, because it's going to be the most common MU we get, and probably one of the harder ones as well.

I find it really hard to get in on Diddy. Fair and dtilt are dumb and safe. Trying to fullhop nair around his incredible horizontal spacing is punishable by huge uair hitboxes with insane startup frames. You kind of have to just dance in a range where you're outside of dtilt, and close enough to punish a poorly spaced fair. Try not to sh anymore than you have to, you lose to a lot of Diddy's horizontal spacing when you're in the air. Diddy's sideB can be reacted to, but will do a good job at punishing any dumb movement options you may be trying to make. Fox is probably one of the best characters at punishing any attempts at pulling bananas, so while they make Diddy's neutral and oos game insane, you should be looking to punish any time Diddy attempts to pull one. Fox is also a legitimate threat with banana, and will deter Diddy to pull them if you display confidence in item usage.

Fox sideB does very well in this MU imo. and when I say very well I mean, it's still not 100% safe but your whole goal in this MU is to get Diddy off of the ground and above you, because you lose everywhere else. I'm not sure how else I can word this outside of just be safe with the usage of sideB. If you become predictable then you will start eating fairs or pivot grabs. Overall though, sideB I think helps a lot in this MU as Diddy does lack lingering hitboxes that can mindlessly eat your sideB. It does a good job at also punishing any attempts that Diddy has to pull bananas.

tl;dr your whole goal of this MU is to get Diddy in the air and punish his landings/sideB. He has poor aerial mobility and bad landing options. This can help set up utilt juggling or jab cancels.

But this is where the ultimate cheese comes into play. There's no real way you can guarantee that Diddy isn't going to do some awful **** to you. I think Fox actually does a good job at holding advantage vs Diddy and racks up the damage quickly, but rage Diddy is terrifying and there's no great kill setup that Fox has that can't be oos grabbed. So a 60% Fox and a 120% Diddy, Diddy has a much easier time just killing Fox outright with uthrow -> uair. How do you not give up the kill? Do everything you can to not get grabbed at 60-80% I guess against a rage Diddy. Once you can't be uthrow/dthrow -> uair the MU becomes much harder for Diddy. Your best bet is trying to end his stock with uair via...anything that gets him above you (while most platform stages help Diddy more than Fox, I find T&C to be good for Fox to catch landing frames with uair), or jab cancel him to the ledge and dsmash if the percents allow it (don't let him fall off of the stage in this case, he can just uair you). nair/ftilt ->usmash are options, but they're just stuffed so frequently that I'd recommend to use this setup sparingly vs Diddy.

Um, as far as moves to just respect and live and let live are probably his dtilt and usually fair (perfectly spaced sh fairs are safe). Unless you can get him to somehow land right next to you with sideB (grounded sideB's are very rare to see from higher level Diddy's), or he sideB's right over your head for a uair punish, then you should just let it go. falling/sh uairs are safe on shield.

EDIT: While Larry has been opting to recently go Diddy vs Tyrant's Diddy, there's still some good matches of his Fox vs Diddy that I'd recommend over on http://www.twitch.tv/ugclive/profile/past_broadcasts

 

[Ralph Cecil]

Snap so it sounds like most Diddy MUs lmao. Just have to let him go nuts and punish when he messes up. Does utilt beat his side-b's kick? Also about avoiding nair and ftilt into usmash I was worried that was the case. I guess getting a kill is like getting hits in the neutral game. You just need to wait for him to give up that last hit while avoiding him(though a banana makes that better). I'll check out teh DEHF matches tho since he lives in Diddy Coast lol.