Mission Complete!- Fox Discussion Thread

[Timbers]

Snap so it sounds like most Diddy MUs lmao. Just have to let him go nuts and punish when he messes up. Does utilt beat his side-b's kick? Also about avoiding nair and ftilt into usmash I was worried that was the case. I guess getting a kill is like getting hits in the neutral game. You just need to wait for him to give up that last hit while avoiding him(though a banana makes that better). I'll check out teh DEHF matches tho since he lives in Diddy Coast lol.

Fox moves fast, so there's that at least. I can't imagine how slower characters deal with that character, since his only issues really are resetting to neutral.

I've never been able to beat his sideB kick outright. I always trade or lose, and the trade damage is never favorable as that dumbass move hits like a smash attack. Just spotdodge it, you miss the kick and the command grab (lol this dumbass move.)

More like Sheik Coast lol, but yeah socal looks littered with a bunch of Diddy's and Sheik's so it's always nice to see Larry pull out Fox against them.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

Welp lol. Going to play some with Nakat later and he said he'd try to help me out with the MU, so if he tells me anything neat i'll try to post here. T_T

 

[DavemanCozy]

It did lack substance, but that's what happens when you discuss them week by week. I keep finding new things about the MU every time I play it.

Banana Trip -> Up-Smash KO deserves a worthy mention if you grab Diddy Kong's banana and he's at high percent. The KO range of U-smash vs Diddy with the banana is at the ~102% mark in FD non-staled.

 

[Timbers]

It did lack substance, but that's what happens when you discuss them week by week. I keep finding new things about the MU every time I play it.

Banana Trip -> Up-Smash KO deserves a worthy mention if you grab Diddy Kong's banana and he's at high percent. The KO range of U-smash vs Diddy with the banana is at the ~102% mark in FD non-staled.

I'm not sure if it's due to the week to week. Some people like to go in depth on MUs, some don't, or lack the experience to talk about it at full length. We had a lot of people talking about Yoshi and Sonic, and DK (but it was more towards a customs DK, which is fine but different region rulesets separates experiences and opinions that use customs on or customs off).

I guess we could have (had) individual export threads of each character we speak about, so as to keep the discussion "open" at all times..but that may make the boards a bit cluttered? I wouldn't be opposed to gathering notable quotes and writeups for each character made in the MU thread and throwing them into their own threads, if that's what we want to do?

 

[Brickbox]

What is the best way to escape down throw follow ups from fox? (DI away?)
and if people DI away from our d throw is there anything guaranteed we can do if we know 100% for sure that they are going to di away?

I have trouble getting follow ups off of d throw in general pls help.

 

[Foster J.]

What is the best way to escape down throw follow ups from fox? (DI away?)
and if people DI away from our d throw is there anything guaranteed we can do if we know 100% for sure that they are going to di away?

I have trouble getting follow ups off of d throw in general pls help.

DI'ing away, Jumping while being throwing (though be careful about that option), air dodging the Fair or Uair he throws at you, but be careful, some just empty jump and regrab you if you have air dodge landing lag.

 

[Timbers]

What is the best way to escape down throw follow ups from fox? (DI away?)
and if people DI away from our d throw is there anything guaranteed we can do if we know 100% for sure that they are going to di away?

I have trouble getting follow ups off of d throw in general pls help.

The first thing to note is that Fox has nothing that's guaranteed off of a throw at any percent. Just DI away. At low percents, it's a mixup of you either jumping , attacking, or airdodging. Being DK, your attacking and airdodging options are very punishable, so you'd just want to try and jump away. You may end up getting your double jump caught with fair -> uair, but DK is a bit more of a special case because he has a hard time mixing up his landing options. If you airdodge or try to cover your landing with an offensive maneuver, you're going to take 50% from utilts (customs off). DI'ing away also gives you the best chance to DI off of the stage, where Fox can't follow you.

I don't know much about DK's throw game. I thought dthrow was a bad throw for DK?

 

[Brickbox]

I totally confused you guys with my dk profile picture and the fact that I have him posted as my main,
these questions don't have any relation to dk. Sorry for the confusion but I did get some good answers out of it.

So what I am understanding is that d-throw provides a 1 in 4 mix up opportunity at lower percents. (keep in mind I am over simplifying things)
Options as a fox player using d throw

1. The opponent doesn't DI away and air dodges = punish the air dodge
   
2. The opponent doesn't DI away and double jumps = commit to a full on forward air immediately after you d-throw
   
3. The opponent DIs away and air dodges = run up a little then punish the air dodge
4. The opponent DIs away and double jumps = run up and fair

Does this sound about right?
Sorry if this is still confusing, I have a hard time getting my thoughts and questions into words :3

 

[Timbers]

I totally confused you guys with my dk profile picture and the fact that I have him posted as my main,
these questions don't have any relation to dk. Sorry for the confusion but I did get some good answers out of it.

So what I am understanding is that d-throw provides a 1 in 4 mix up opportunity at lower percents. (keep in mind I am over simplifying things)
Options as a fox player using d throw

1. The opponent doesn't DI away and air dodges = punish the air dodge
   
2. The opponent doesn't DI away and double jumps = commit to a full on forward air immediately after you d-throw
   
3. The opponent DIs away and air dodges = run up a little then punish the air dodge
4. The opponent DIs away and double jumps = run up and fair

Does this sound about right?
Sorry if this is still confusing, I have a hard time getting my thoughts and questions into words :3

You will ALWAYS want to DI away. Not DIing gives Fox guaranteed followups. If the opponent DI's Fox's throws away at any percent, it's very hard for Fox to follow up. Many characters have aerials that protect many attempts that Fox may use to pursue them. I would say that you would want to do everything in your power to not airdodge Fox's followups if you don't have to - many characters can contest Fox's pursuit with disjointed/fast aerials. It's usually better in this case to try and stay under them and potentially catch their landing with utilt, or if they double jump then try to catch them with uair. Characters are typically at their weakest when they're above someone.

 

[Skarfelt]

Fox's down throw functions heavily off conditioning and reading your opponent as well as reacting to all the options out of the throw. I also find it's a good way to gauge my opponent's matchup knowledge - if they don't DI away from my down throw and give me a free Fair -> Uair at 0%, they're probably almost completely unfamiliar with the matchup and I can dictate the game flow but I digress. It's pretty difficult to punish certain floaty characters who just double jump away so you might have a better time f-throwing them instead at certain percentages. With other characters that fall faster, you can do some interesting mixups with empty hops and stuff - if you down throw them, you can empty hop to bait an airdodge then run and Up Smash.

The biggest thing with Fox's Down Throw though is to try your hardest to not let muscle memory dictate where your followups go. Fair is by no means confirmed and if you just run up and Fair after every Down Throw, you're going to get punished hard and it also makes it much harder to learn proper followups. Try mixing up as many of your approaches as you can on different characters to see what works and what doesn't but, honestly, Fair is not our safest follow up. At early percentages it's Godlike when landed into Uair for crazy damage, of course, but it has considerable landing lag is easily punished if your opponent reads it. It's worth mixing up other options like Nairs, RAR'd Bairs and Up Smashes.

There's a great set of MegaFox playing against DJ Fliphop's Diddy from several months ago which shows some good Down Throw mixups straight off the bat in Game 1 I'd recommend checking out here:

 

[Brickbox]

Wow thanks so much, you guys really helped clear up my questions +learn stuff, and thanks for the advice on not letting my muscle memory control what I do out of d throw, that habit is forming so it is always better to cut it off early before it becomes to prevalent in my brain.

One more question, if the opponent DIs away and air dodges at the soonest they can will they air dodge into the ground giving them laggy landing, or are they too high for that?

 

[Timbers]

One more question, if the opponent DIs away and air dodges at the soonest they can will they air dodge into the ground giving them laggy landing, or are they too high for that?

Completely character dependent.

 

[Ffamran]

Question: What happened here? Did Fox break out of Falco's Nair with Reflector? That or he fell out of Falco's Nair which is more likely...

 

[Timbers]

Question: What happened here? Did Fox break out of Falco's Nair with Reflector? That or he fell out of Falco's Nair which is more likely...

He just fell out of it. One of Falco's multihits whiffed due to being too high above Fox, and allowed Fox to fall. Not sure why he tried to shine lol.

 

[DEHF]

Could anyone give me a rundown of the Fox vs Diddy mu? I know it was in the MU discussion thread, but none of the really seemed in depth and were moreso looking like they were just trying to agree on a ratio. I'm mainly wanting to know how to not give up the kill to Diddy 1st, dealing with his hitboxes in neutral, and more or less what moves I have to outright respect and let him get by with. Also there's probably a good chance that i'll probably go off of join date for how seriously I take a response tho I won't outright ignore something if it sounds right.

In my opinion the best way to deal with Diddy in neutral is to weave in and out with your superior movement speed. From mid range you can punish majority, if not all of the attacks he can throw out with dash attack, pivot ftilt, or side b. I think the neutral game is slightly in Fox's favor.

the key to this match up is understanding how to keep momentum on your side once you have it. Fox has the means to do so many high damaging combos to Diddy, but you must maintain proper positioning and not overextend yourself. If you are slightly off on a combo expect to be a uair reversal to happen, which could potentially kill or lead to a follow up depending on percentage.

You should almost never try to challenge any of Diddy Kong's aerials. Majority of the time you attack a Diddy aerial you will flat out lose or you will trade, which probably will be in the Diddy's favor because most of his aerials do more damage.

If you manage to get a jab on the edge you can link double jabs to the edge and finish it with a dsmash, which can kill Diddy at about 100%. You can also jab jab utilt air at kill %, but it's harder to get because it depends on how close Diddy is to you while being jabbed.

Fox being a fast faller and also being light can die incredibly early to uthrow uair. I lost a to Tyrant at Apex getting grabbed at 40% and dying to uthrow uair. It's one of the main reasons why I believe the match up is 6-4 Diddy's favor. It's winnable, Fox definitely has the tools in his arsenal to beat Diddy, but Diddy doesn't have to work nearly as hard to win.

EDIT: While Larry has been opting to recently go Diddy vs Tyrant's Diddy, there's still some good matches of his Fox vs Diddy that I'd recommend over on http://www.twitch.tv/ugclive/profile/past_broadcasts

I went Diddy against him in one tournament! I just use the character I feel I have the best chance of winning as. I've recently taken matches from Tyrant going Diddy, Fox, Sheik, and Mario; I've taken more sets and games off Tyrant going Fox than any other character. I just feel like Fox is such an off or on character when I'm using him. There's moments where I'll be playing extremely well with him and feel confident that I can beat anyone with him, but then there's moments I lose to people I shouldn't be losing to with him.

 

[Timbers]

I went Diddy against him in one tournament! I just use the character I feel I have the best chance of winning as. I've recently taken matches from Tyrant going Diddy, Fox, Sheik, and Mario; I've taken more sets and games off Tyrant going Fox than any other character. I just feel like Fox is such an off or on character when I'm using him. There's moments where I'll be playing extremely well with him and feel confident that I can beat anyone with him, but then there's moments I lose to people I shouldn't be losing to with him.

Oh definitely. Was a footnote for anyone looking to find your Fox vs. Tyrant matches on that channel, as they should be aware that the most recent ones are of your Diddy. Not looking to misrepresent - you put in work with many different characters. We (as filthy Fox main casuals) are primarily interested in seeing how you approach the Diddy MU as Fox~

...and you also showed us a ton of Fox vs Diddy play at Kawaii Kon which was super hype.

 

[Ffamran]

Fox's Uair is disjointed since he hits with his tail first if what Lavani told me was right - and it explains the "double hit". That's probably the only move that could challenge Diddy's, but because of Diddy's range, it might be risky since he could spike you with his stupid, stretchy arms. Could Fox's Dair challenge things since it stays out long sort of like Nair, but hits multiple times? Dtilt's also disjointed too by the way.

 

[Timbers]

Fox's Uair is disjointed since he hits with his tail first if what Lavani told me was right - and it explains the "double hit". That's probably the only move that could challenge Diddy's, but because of Diddy's range, it might be risky since he could spike you with his stupid, stretchy arms. Could Fox's Dair challenge things since it stays out long sort of like Nair, but hits multiple times? Dtilt's also disjointed too by the way.

I always thought each hit of uair was each leg hitting them? I guess I never really paid attention. I highly doubt his uair has any sort of disjoint. First hit of uair trades with even the smallest of hitboxes, even late hit nairs. It never beats another aerial hitbox. Fox's fall speed combined with dair's properties make it an okay tool at landing, but characters can also fall out of falling dairs and punish the endlag. Dair also has considerable landing lag. I don't know much about dtilt's properties, admittedly.

 

[Ffamran]

I always thought each hit of uair was each leg hitting them? I guess I never really paid attention. I highly doubt his uair has any sort of disjoint. First hit of uair trades with even the smallest of hitboxes, even late hit nairs. It never beats another aerial hitbox. Fox's fall speed combined with dair's properties make it an okay tool at landing, but characters can also fall out of falling dairs and punish the endlag. Dair also has considerable landing lag. I don't know much about dtilt's properties, admittedly.

Tails, wings - maybe except Falco's for most of his attacks -, and other things like swords, staffs, and hammers are disjointed in this game which is why people feel like Mewtwo won't suffer as much with its big ol' tail. It's also a reason why Charizard's hurtbox is kind of deceptive, but not really - I think the game even tells you that Charizard's wings and tail don't count as part of his hurtbox.

@ Lavani said Fox's Uair had him using his tail first then his leg and I always thought it was Fox hitting with one leg before the other, especially since in Melee, Falco's tail isn't that long, but the animation looked like he was hitting with one leg while the other was ready to follow up since it was bent almost before snapping forwards to hit. Aside from Dtilt, I would have never thought they would use their tails to attack with anything else.

Anyway, when I asked, it was when I used Uair before a Captain Falcon Kneed me. The Capt. was right next to me and I thought I was going to die there, but somehow, Fox hit him first with Uair which let the second hit connect and kill the Capt. instead of me dying to his Knee. It looked weird since when I watched the replay, I thought it was because Fox's Uair made his hurtbox smaller since has upside down, but even then, his legs would get hit. I guess the disjoint overrode the Knee.

 

[Lavani]

Right, so let's look at uair's data:

def game_6B():
AsynchronousTimer_0D0(Frame=9.000000, )
unk_170(0xD, 0x2100, )
Hitbox_026(ID=0x0, GID=0x0, Bone=0x3E8, Damage=5.000000, Angle=0x5C, KBG=0x82, WKB=0x1E, BKB=0x0, Size=5.200000, Z=0.000000, Y=0.000000, X=0.000000, Element=0x0, Tripping=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, unk_=0x1, unk_=0x1, ShieldDamage=0x0, 0x0, 0x1, 0x3, 0x1, 0x18, )
Hitbox_026(ID=0x1, GID=0x0, Bone=0x3E9, Damage=5.000000, Angle=0x5C, KBG=0x82, WKB=0x1E, BKB=0x0, Size=5.200000, Z=0.000000, Y=0.000000, X=0.000000, Element=0x0, Tripping=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, unk_=0x1, unk_=0x1, ShieldDamage=0x0, 0x0, 0x1, 0x3, 0x1, 0x18, )
Hitbox_026(ID=0x2, GID=0x0, Bone=0x3EA, Damage=5.000000, Angle=0x5C, KBG=0x82, WKB=0x1E, BKB=0x0, Size=5.200000, Z=0.000000, Y=0.000000, X=0.000000, Element=0x0, Tripping=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, unk_=0x1, unk_=0x1, ShieldDamage=0x0, 0x0, 0x1, 0x3, 0x1, 0x18, )
SynchronousTimer_20B(Frame=2.000000, )
RemoveAllHitboxes_014()
AsynchronousTimer_0D0(Frame=12.000000, )
Hitbox_026(ID=0x0, GID=0x0, Bone=0x9, Damage=11.000000, Angle=0x55, KBG=0x64, WKB=0x0, BKB=0x1E, Size=4.700000, Z=0.000000, Y=0.000000, X=0.000000, Element=0x0, Tripping=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, unk_=0x1, unk_=0x1, ShieldDamage=0x0, 0x2, 0x2, 0x3, 0x1, 0x6, )
Hitbox_026(ID=0x1, GID=0x0, Bone=0xA, Damage=11.000000, Angle=0x55, KBG=0x64, WKB=0x0, BKB=0x1E, Size=6.200000, Z=0.000000, Y=0.000000, X=0.000000, Element=0x0, Tripping=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, unk_=0x1, unk_=0x1, ShieldDamage=0x0, 0x2, 0x2, 0x3, 0x1, 0x6, )
Hitbox_026(ID=0x2, GID=0x0, Bone=0x3, Damage=11.000000, Angle=0x55, KBG=0x64, WKB=0x0, BKB=0x1E, Size=6.200000, Z=0.000000, Y=0.000000, X=0.000000, Element=0x0, Tripping=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, unk_=0x1, unk_=0x1, ShieldDamage=0x0, 0x2, 0x2, 0x3, 0x1, 0x6, )
SynchronousTimer_20B(Frame=2.000000, )
RemoveAllHitboxes_014()
SynchronousTimer_20B(Frame=11.000000, )
unk_16F(0xD, 0x2100, )
End_196()

The bones for the first hit of uair use the bones for his tail (easily verified by comparing to dtilt - it uses the same bones for its hitboxes). Tails in general are disjointed in this game, but this can be easily verified with a test anyway:

 

[Sorichuudo]

Hey there Fox mains, the megaman boards are discussing the Fox MU right now:

http://smashboards.com/threads/zeros-advice-mega-man-matchup-discussion-thread-fox.371407/page-15

Please stop by and give your thoughts on it.

Also i apologize if i posted this on the wrong thread, i just figured not to post it on your MU thread since it is a request and not an opinion on the MU you guys are currently discussing.

Once again, please drop by, and thanks.

 

[Timbers]

Right, so let's look at uair's data:

Very interesting. Are there any upairs that aren't disjointed then? Most upairs that use legs as a uair are given that crescent slash disjoint, so I assumed that upairs that used tails, and upairs that didn't have the wide slash animation (Greninja, Sheik, Samus, etc) would be the only few that weren't disjointed. But if all tail aerials/upairs are disjointed, and Fox does not initially use his legs...I'm left to think that it may only be Samus, Greninja, and Sheik that do not have disjointed properties on their upairs? Maybe weird ones like DK?

 

[Ffamran]

Very interesting. Are there any upairs that aren't disjointed then? Most upairs that use legs as a uair are given that crescent slash disjoint, so I assumed that upairs that used tails, and upairs that didn't have the wide slash animation (Greninja, Sheik, Samus, etc) would be the only few that weren't disjointed. But if all tail aerials/upairs are disjointed, and Fox does not initially use his legs...I'm left to think that it may only be Samus, Greninja, and Sheik that do not have disjointed properties on their upairs? Maybe weird ones like DK?

I think Lavani meant that Fox's Uair is disjointed and not that all Uairs are disjointed. For one, I tried challenging Greninja's Dair with Falco's Uair which isn't disjointed and I don't think Greninja's Dair is disjointed either. It resulted in taking stupid damage and letting Greninja Dair me like 6 to 10 times. Remember kids, don't be stupid.

 

[DEHF]

Fox's Uair is disjointed since he hits with his tail first if what Lavani told me was right - and it explains the "double hit". That's probably the only move that could challenge Diddy's, but because of Diddy's range, it might be risky since he could spike you with his stupid, stretchy arms. Could Fox's Dair challenge things since it stays out long sort of like Nair, but hits multiple times? Dtilt's also disjointed too by the way.

Diddy doesn't have any good aerials to challenge Fox from below. His best aerial to challenge Fox's uair is his own uair because it hits slightly below him and comes out on frame 3, but it won't hit if Fox spaces uair properly.

Fox's dair is not favorable to use against Diddy's aerials. Diddy's fair, bair, and uair flat out beat Fox's dair. Even if they were to trade it wouldn't be Fox's favorable.

Dtilt is really good, but you're not really going to be challenging many of his moves with it. Diddy's best moves in neutral are fair, uair, dtilt, and grab. I've never seen a Fox and Diddy's dtilt hit at the same time, but I'm assuming they would clank. Fox's dtilt is one of those moves that are incredibly good, but you're not going to use as much compared to his other attacks.

 

[Snackss]

I checked the matchup thread and people completely glazed over the Donkey Kong matchup, writing him off as "just another heavy." But his down B completely shuts down Fox's ground approach, jumping in on him with a short hop neutral air is unsafe, and trying to go for a crossup or a back air means he'll just recover in time for an uptilt. Is forward air the only option against that move? Donkey Kong completely shuts Fox down if you try to play like any other heavy matchup, which I feel is something that should warrant more discussing and documenting.

 

[Ffamran]

Have fun watching Falco and Fox in a montage. Team Star Fox! WOO! Fox's begins around 4:00.

 

[EndlessRain]

Thanks for reminding me to work on my SH RAR bairs with Falco lol
And 2:05 is the best Falco combo ever, period

 

[luke_atyeo]

How do you deal with shiek? loss a grand final set in my local area because I've never played one

I know how you feel man, sheik is a tough one.
jabbing is a huge part of my game, and every time I jab sheik I get punished on hit by sheiks jab (or sometimes even ftilt) which wrecks me since that normally doesnt happen.
Sheiks fair beats everything fox has in the air except if you nair from above but dues to sheiks mobility you cant really get up there without sheik having the chance to back off and reset the situation and you cant really do the old fox game of dancing around baiting out moves and then punishing them because sheik doesnt have end lag on anything.
sheik can even outcamp fox with needles, I am at a complete loss as to how to approach the matchup.

 

[M@v]

The more I play Fox in smash 4 the more I wonder if it would be better to have Illusion Cancelling rather than the ability to act out of side b. I think there are more scenarios where being able to Illusion Cancel would of bailed me out than the situations where acting out of side b has saved me.

 

[Ffamran]

Why not both?

Wolf Flash being able to cancel allowed Wolf to recovery horizontally with Wolf Flash and basically, mixup his game even more. Fox and Falco can't do that, but they were able to shorten it sort of like a feint. If there's one thing I wished you could cancel, it would be Ike's Quickdraw, Fox and Falco's Fire Fox and Bird; Zelda's Din's Fire and Phantom Slash, and a bunch more. I don't mean cancel just during the middle of the move, but while charging or just to stop it. That's not as difficult as pressing it at the right frame for most people. Anyone can cancel Sonic's Spin Dash and Charge, but not a lot of people can cancel Fox Illusion consistently.

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

Hey guys!

I'm pretty new to Fox. I'm looking to make him a strong secondary. I have a couple of questions. How do you feel about Fox vs Mega Man? What are Fox's best options close up when fighting a fast faller? I always get punished by jabs when I either cancel my jabs to something else or try to do the whole jab combo.

 

[Skarfelt]

Fox destroys Mega Man.

What fast fallers in particular? In general you can juggle them well but not do your "braindead" combos like uptilt spam or jab locking forever.

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

Good to know about Mega Man because I need a secondary to fight him. And for example, Falco. If I attempt to jab -> grab or jab lock or try to do the entire jab combo (kicks included), Falco just stops me with jabs of his own. Falcon does this to me too. Because of that, I'm not sure what to do. Is Ftilt a better option or should I just retreat for space?

 

[Skarfelt]

When people break the jab lock with aggro, I like to go jab jab shield then grab. Works well against characters like Luigi, Yoshi etc.

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

Jab, jab shield is something I thought of. I haven't had a chance to test it against those with quick jabs but it feels like that would be the best solution

 

[Gova]

Hey, is there like a place I can post videos to get my fox critiqued? This place is kind of unorganized and so I didn't know if I should post here or in the social.

 

[EndlessRain]

There is a videos thread!

http://smashboards.com/threads/neve...ox-video-collection-thread-100-videos.392671/

 

[Snackss]

I've lost like 5 games in a row with the opponent over 100% because I just can't get in for a KO. What do you do when that keeps happening? Do you just try to do a walk up jab? Seems kind of dumb and risky, but so is running back and forth looking for an up smash or up air, so there's not much to do.

 

[EndlessRain]

Look for tippered dtilts, utlits, weak-hit nairs, the last bit of Illusion, and jabs. These all combo into kill moves (which kill moves is MU-dependant, DI-dependant, and whether-or-not-they-tech-dependant. Punish rolls with running usmash and dsmash. Usmash OoS. Uthrow, read their airdodge, DI, etc. and uair them.
Problem with getting kills as Fox is that sure, you have all these safe setups n stuff but past like 130-ish percent they don't work. You need to finish them as soon as possible, or it will start to get HARDER for you to kill since your setups won't work and you can't rush in in case a random rage-powered dsmash sends you into orbit. The instant they hit kill percent, you have to switch to going for kill combos (and usmash punishes). Any attacks you land at this point are actually helping them rather than you if they don't kill.

 

[Snackss]

I figured that out last night. Sux.
All I've been able to rely on lately is neutral air to up smash. Sometimes forward tilt to up smash even works.