Mission Complete!- Fox Discussion Thread

[Skarfelt]

Especially against a player like EOE - his float spacing is bloody brilliant. Uair can beat Dair but it's certainly a challenge.

Incidentally, I went Battlefield all five games against him. Was this a good choice or should I have taken him to Town and City/FD?

 

[EndlessRain]

I believe T&C would have been the better choice. Battlefield is fantastic for Fox, but the low ceiling/high platforms combination of T&C, in tandem with Peach's inherent floatiness contribute greatly to obnoxiously early kills. Though the FD-like portion favours Peach imo. I think Fox likes plats too much to really want to pick FD ever.

 

[RPK]

So...What do you guys think about the videos that I've been posting? I'm planning on releasing more content during the week as well, but don't have a clear idea on what to release next. If you guys have any suggestions, I'm more than open to them.

 

[Skarfelt]

I personally find a lot of those types of videos pipe dreamy - setups like that aren't consistent enough to be used in play and I also personally love Fox for how creative his mixups can be. I'd like to see more videos like that Bair one, though, they're really good quality and shows how creative the character can be.

 

[RPK]

Well one, I just found out this combo starting with Dair LITERALLY 2-3 months ago. SO the reason why it isn't seen in competitive play is cause it has never been known till now. Can't really apply something you don't know right? I've also never disclosed that Dair>Fair>F-tilt lock>Dair>Fair>Footstool combo to the public with the exception of a few people in northern california since I wanted to be the first to bust it out in tournament.

 

[M@v]

What percent are you starting it at, and how are they Ding dair? Because I can't think of too many situations where dair links into fair unless they di up or try to jump after dair.

 

[Skarfelt]

It's more that I generally feel the startups are very unsafe, especially on shield, but they're really awesome and creative. Personally I don't see much use for stuff like the 0% footstool KO but I could definitely stand to be corrected.

 

[RPK]

What percent are you starting it at, and how are they Ding dair? Because I can't think of too many situations where dair links into fair unless they di up or try to jump after dair.

Well Dair pops them up at the right height, and the game registers it as a true combo when you chain Dair to Fair. The combo starts at a low percent and can start anywhere from 0-5 and can go up to 40% which is when they start flying up too high. I haven't had a chance to sit down with someone and practice it with DI involve. I have pulled it off in matches before though against real people. They normally dont go far enough away at that low percent, and arent able to jump out of it since its a true combo. I have the combo in my 0-death thread that doesnt seem to have too many replies T~T

It's more that I generally feel the startups are very unsafe, especially on shield, but they're really awesome and creative. Personally I don't see much use for stuff like the 0% footstool KO but I could definitely stand to be corrected.

The dair that I perform is actually lagless. So as long as they dont jump up and intercept you coming down, they won't be able to punish the lag as there is none. You can also perform it as a cross up if it ends up getting blocked. Its pretty great. Though I'm working on a different combo starter that leads into the dair footstool combo.

 

[Ffamran]

Probably known and asked about, but have people been using RAR Bair after his D-throw or whatever? RAR Bairs in general are just badass and powerful tools for characters.

 

[RPK]

Probably known and asked about, but have people been using RAR Bair after his D-throw or whatever? RAR Bairs in general are just badass and powerful tools for characters.

Its usually best at 0 when they DI away after a D-throw

 

[Skarfelt]

Lagless Dair is pretty heavily communicated, though. Props for finding a use for it, though, I just use it on Battlefield after a KO cuz it looks cool lol

RAR Bair is your most consistent followup out of DThrow and if you condition them to avoid that then you can start following up with dash attacks or Up Smashes. RAR Bair in general is an insanely good pressuring tool Fox should be using more. If you just stand there spamming Bairs at the ledge, they can't jump or attack you and there's little enough lag for you to punish a regular/roll getup. It's also one of your safest ways of catching someone as they land. Bair is gahlike and we all need to use it more. I'm only just now reintroducing it to my game properly and it's been so effective.

 

[RPK]

Lagless Dair is pretty heavily communicated, though. Props for finding a use for it, though, I just use it on Battlefield after a KO cuz it looks cool lol

Oh yeah, you could also do it on battlefield since full jump dair onto the platform is also lagless.

 

[Dream Cancel]

I have a question for Fox Mains:

How do you deal with shielding players at percentages that are within the kill percents for your RAR Bairs (maybe Up airs) and Smashes?

I ask because it seems that Fox doesn't have much shield pressure, and on top of that Fox's grabs cannot kill until well past the early kill percentages of his smashes. Even RAR Bairs need to be at least at the kill percent of his Smashes to kill. Additionally, Fox can't do a whole lot off stage besides to try and stage spike with his Bair or gimp with his Nair/Fair, and that is inherently risky for Fox, especially in close matches. I would also risk being hit by an Uair since it's typically difficult to land.

Obviously I'm ignoring the ability to bait opponents or getting good reads for earlier kills. But I'm asking about this when playing against a good opponent who is doing a respectable job of mix-ups and basically making your life difficult when it comes down to finishing off their stock.

Lastly, even if the opponent dodges RAR Bairs, it seems like it's somewhat difficult to follow-up RAR Bairs with any smash, (Fox's tilts and jabs don't scare me much) thus giving opponents a safe landing option if they air dodge.

Essentially, it seems to me that the shield is the best option against Fox at high percents because without Smashes or RAR Bairs, Fox struggles to finish off opponents.

Percentages under kill percents is a different story though. Also I may not be playing the greatest Fox players, but some of them are worthy opponents though.

 

[Virgule]

So...What do you guys think about the videos that I've been posting? I'm planning on releasing more content during the week as well, but don't have a clear idea on what to release next. If you guys have any suggestions, I'm more than open to them.

Those videos are great, they show how much we can be creative with fox moveset. Unfortunately i don't have any suggestions to make, i guess you can keep the same model as it is.

 

[EndlessRain]

Bair is pretty safe on shield against most characters, and the surprising number of things it sets up is definitely something to take advantage of.

 

[RPK]

Im personally new when it comes to releasing content on video so I'm just hoping that the content that I've put out has been good so far T~T

 

[Dark Dire Wolf]

A coupleof questions:
1. How do I deal with the FG Little Mac's. I've assumed the role of counterpuncher and am having more success, but its still very difficult. What moves are easier to bait and punish?
2. Regarding the double jab > smash. I am using the twice button press method for the jabs, then flicking c-stick. Though sometimes when pressing the button twice the kicks come. Am I pressing the buttons or flicking c-stick too fast?

 

[Dream Cancel]

A coupleof questions:
1. How do I deal with the FG Little Mac's. I've assumed the role of counterpuncher and am having more success, but its still very difficult. What moves are easier to bait and punish?
2. Regarding the double jab > smash. I am using the twice button press method for the jabs, then flicking c-stick. Though sometimes when pressing the button twice the kicks come. Am I pressing the buttons or flicking c-stick too fast?

1) Just camp out in the corner of the stage and force their apporach with your blaster. Just don't shoot too much because Little Mac can easily punish you with his dash attack. Just poke him once with one laser here or there to send the message that if they (Little Mac players) want to win, they must meet you at the ledge.

Next, grabbing out of shield is your best friend here, since his dash attack is easily punishable by combos (namely Grab out of shield ---> Dthrow ---> Fair) If he dash grabs you, so be it. He can't follow-up any of his grabs and he can't contest you off-stage. Also, your Up-tilt strings can be countered or DI'd out of, so you need to see his response to your combos and adjust accordingly. For example, if he's countering your 3rd Up-tilt, then wait after your second one and charge a Smash.

Your Fair/Nair and especially your RAR Bair (if you can pull it off) are good enough to gimp Little Mac. Just pay attention to what he does when recovering. Does he counter? Does he air dodge? Does he recover high? Does he fast fall into Up B right under the ledge? If you can read his recovery patterns then you can get an easy two-stock on him.

However, you need to wary of him breaking your shield, Little Mac's smashes put a good dent into your shield, and if your shield is low enough, a well-timed Fsmash from him will ruin your day.

If he's using a lot of smashes, I recommend rolling away or jumping away and reposition. His Down smash will catch anyone rolling around him so you need to be careful about rolling behind him if he's using his D smash. If he's mainly using tilts and jabs, your shield is a safe option. If you're uncomfortable with Mac being in your space, your Fox Illusion (Side B) can come in handy here.

Lastly, your D-smash is very strong against Little Mac because of the low trajectory of the attack. Heck, even your F-throw at the ledge can be enough to finish him.

2) Fox's Double Jab Combo (YouTube link)

You're tapping A too fast. An alternative to pressing A twice is pressing and holding A until Fox throws out his two jabs, then releasing A. Rinse and repeat.

 

[Dark Dire Wolf]

Excellent response, I really appreciate it! Also, do you fast fall the RAR bairs or get the most out of the distance by letting the jump complete naturally?

 

[EndlessRain]

I recommend SHFFing to autocancel them, which means you lose out on a little distance but you're a lot safer.

 

[Smash_Phenom92]

I have a question for Fox Mains:

How do you deal with shielding players at percentages that are within the kill percents for your RAR Bairs (maybe Up airs) and Smashes?

I ask because it seems that Fox doesn't have much shield pressure, and on top of that Fox's grabs cannot kill until well past the early kill percentages of his smashes. Even RAR Bairs need to be at least at the kill percent of his Smashes to kill. Additionally, Fox can't do a whole lot off stage besides to try and stage spike with his Bair or gimp with his Nair/Fair, and that is inherently risky for Fox, especially in close matches. I would also risk being hit by an Uair since it's typically difficult to land.

Obviously I'm ignoring the ability to bait opponents or getting good reads for earlier kills. But I'm asking about this when playing against a good opponent who is doing a respectable job of mix-ups and basically making your life difficult when it comes down to finishing off their stock.

Lastly, even if the opponent dodges RAR Bairs, it seems like it's somewhat difficult to follow-up RAR Bairs with any smash, (Fox's tilts and jabs don't scare me much) thus giving opponents a safe landing option if they air dodge.

Essentially, it seems to me that the shield is the best option against Fox at high percents because without Smashes or RAR Bairs, Fox struggles to finish off opponents.

Percentages under kill percents is a different story though. Also I may not be playing the greatest Fox players, but some of them are worthy opponents though.

I usually like to grab and pummel (then release and try to get a read) if my opponent is doing a good job of avoiding my smash attacks so I can rack up more percent. It makes it easier on me because I will have a better chance of killing just off punishing my opponent's mistake if needed. Also, being around your opponent and not attacking (like a empty hop or running past them) may force a reaction as well. Patience and mixing up grabs are key when you have your opponent at high percents because you don't want your opponent thinking they can just hold shield at death percent all the time against you.

I hope this was good information and sorry for the late response. I haven't been on here much but I want to become more active on Smashboards in the future!

 

[M@v]

I have a question for Fox Mains:

How do you deal with shielding players at percentages that are within the kill percents for your RAR Bairs (maybe Up airs) and Smashes?

I ask because it seems that Fox doesn't have much shield pressure, and on top of that Fox's grabs cannot kill until well past the early kill percentages of his smashes. Even RAR Bairs need to be at least at the kill percent of his Smashes to kill. Additionally, Fox can't do a whole lot off stage besides to try and stage spike with his Bair or gimp with his Nair/Fair, and that is inherently risky for Fox, especially in close matches. I would also risk being hit by an Uair since it's typically difficult to land.

Obviously I'm ignoring the ability to bait opponents or getting good reads for earlier kills. But I'm asking about this when playing against a good opponent who is doing a respectable job of mix-ups and basically making your life difficult when it comes down to finishing off their stock.

Lastly, even if the opponent dodges RAR Bairs, it seems like it's somewhat difficult to follow-up RAR Bairs with any smash, (Fox's tilts and jabs don't scare me much) thus giving opponents a safe landing option if they air dodge.

Essentially, it seems to me that the shield is the best option against Fox at high percents because without Smashes or RAR Bairs, Fox struggles to finish off opponents.

Percentages under kill percents is a different story though. Also I may not be playing the greatest Fox players, but some of them are worthy opponents though.

I gave Fox mains this same advice in brawl, but the best option is to just take the free grab. Many people did the same thing vs Fox in Brawl; turtling in their shield. Eventually it's going to stop working, because if they keep shielding and giving you free grabs, you are going to kill them with a faster move, such as uptilt or even fthrow on the edge, quite quickly as the damage racks up. The other easy to learn, yet effective way to deal with it is to bait them to come out of their shield then punish. An easy but great one is to land right in from of them then immediately walk back. This can bait out a whiffed shieldgrab, a spot dodge, or even an attack. If its the first 2, free fsmash. An attack? Shield and upsmash Out of Shield or grab.

There are many more mixups then that, but that's one of the easiest to learn and practice, and it works even at higher levels.

 

[Ffamran]

I have no idea what he did here, but it's insane: https://youtu.be/sEeITWgmn4A. Fair spike, force get up with Ftilt, and a finisher with Wolf Flash!

Edit: Have people been full hopping Impact Blaster? You can continually jump and fire Impact Blaster while rising. I don't know if you can move forward as in jump forward and shoot, but it's something since Fox's jump isn't as massive as Falco's and he could potentially close off aerial approaches with this.. Basically, full hop laser.

 

[VenommousPig]

Hey fox boards I'm new here I have a few questions if anybody could help it would be greatly appreciated!

It had came to my attention awhile back that your aireal momentum is halted when you use an aireal with a C-stick. I have become accustom to using Air attacks with the C-stick because it is more comfortable however is this hindering my abilities when it comes to spacing Bairs and Fairs into Uairs? Would switching it up to "attack" on C-stick help me connect some strings better? Or does this In fact help fox in some way?

My last question is what are the inputs to a lagless SHFF Uair? Is it strictly timing? Or is the C-stick use stoping me from getting all the air time I can with in the short hop? Because when I SHFF an Uair it brings me down too quickly and causes lag apon landing? I suppose my question is what are the inputs when somebody like Larry or any other high level fox snags the kill and then flexs their tech skill? Im not in it for showboating I just want to know how to create a lagless Uair!

 

[Ffamran]

Wasn't this a problems if you hold the C-stick instead of flicking it? I don't know why this is a problem, but it might have to do with the frame buffer that Smash 4 has. You could switch to having the C-stick be "Attack" and not have to deal with flicking the stick, but I don't really know since I only have a 3DS for Smash 4.

 

[Legato]

My last question is what are the inputs to a lagless SHFF Uair? Is it strictly timing? Or is the C-stick use stoping me from getting all the air time I can with in the short hop? Because when I SHFF an Uair it brings me down too quickly and causes lag apon landing? I suppose my question is what are the inputs when somebody like Larry or any other high level fox snags the kill and then flexs their tech skill? Im not in it for showboating I just want to know how to create a lagless Uair!

Too funny I was just experimenting with this! For starters, I strongly suggest Fox mains use attack as the c-stick to open up options with PP; however, there are many successful Fox mains here who prefer "smash" on the c-stick, so that is personal preference. I use both the c-stick and 'A' when performing aerials to micromanage spacing. It is helpful to use both because they can help you make smaller adjustments by using the c-stick, or larger by not using the c-stick in the air.

The lagless uair is possible, but the timing is stiff. It is not as bad as a lagless dair with Pikachu though, there is some room for error. The uair can be input through up A, but I find it too often will go into a JC usmash. I instead have started using the palm of my hand to hit the c-stick, which has boosted my consistency to at least 80% in pulling off this move. I think lagless uair will make uair-->usmash frame traps possible. I actually was unaware Larry Lurr used it, I'll need to check this out.

 

[Dark Dire Wolf]

Can Fox escape Mario up-tilt lock early or am I not DIing right?

 

[EndlessRain]

@ Dark Dire Wolf We fall very fast, so it works for a long time. Mario can get off 4-5 iirc.

 

[Legato]

@ Dark Dire Wolf DI downward if you are under 15%. Fox can touch the ground and block the next utilt, then punish. If he catches you at 20%, then it's going to hurt.

 

[M@v]

Can Fox escape Mario up-tilt lock early or am I not DIing right?

As Legato stated too, you can block the uptilt if you are touching the ground. If he is able to link it in the air, you are getting combod for a bit. Ding up and away is probably best, but jumping out would be your earliest escape most likely barring a mistake by mario. Watch for upair followups if you try jumping out though.

 

[G-Sword]

So...What do you guys think about the videos that I've been posting? I'm planning on releasing more content during the week as well, but don't have a clear idea on what to release next. If you guys have any suggestions, I'm more than open to them.

So the lagless fair works if it is a full hop and start the fair at almost peak going down? In a match I'm sure u tried it and they sat there and blocked the dair how did that fair out? Do u go for a grab or hit them with another attack?

 

[Legato]

Also, if you are caught in the situation where you must DI away from Mario, be cautious of double jumping too soon. That requires some MU practice to get down, but it is possible to double jump too early then lose your jump. Mario is such a tight MU, perhaps one of the most fun though since both chars can enter great combos against each other.

 

[Dark Dire Wolf]

Any tips on getting the jab to hit. Fox has such short range I find it difficult to get anything going with the jab.

 

[Ffamran]

Any tips on getting the jab to hit. Fox has such short range I find it difficult to get anything going with the jab.

Besides mashing it and have Fox march along like he's working out?

Fox is fast enough where you could just Ftilt or Dtilt out of it if you realize you screwed up the spacing or you could delay the second jab and let them rush in only to get jabbed again. Eh, I don't know. Maybe it's just a thing you learn after a while during your play with Fox. For me, I'm used to getting in which leads to really stupid spacing with characters like Ike, Marth, and Samus; I'm so used to attacking close up that it just bites me back with characters who have range or tipper mechanics like Marth and Sheik's Bair. At the same time, I get used to Falco's range which makes me whiff Fox and even Captain Falcon's since their jab range is just a bit shorter than Falco's jab.

 

[RPK]

So the lagless fair works if it is a full hop and start the fair at almost peak going down? In a match I'm sure u tried it and they sat there and blocked the dair how did that fair out? Do u go for a grab or hit them with another attack?

Depends on where I land with the Dair. If its in front of them, I'm probably going to end up getting grabbed if I dont roll quickly, or if they do something before I hit the ground. If I land behind them then its infinitely safer. Usually if I miss, I normally try to get out of there, but again, its completely situational.

Any tips on getting the jab to hit. Fox has such short range I find it difficult to get anything going with the jab.

I cheat and set my c-stick to attack and then just walk forward and jab using the c-stick

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

What options are best up close vs characters with fast jabs? Often times I'm getting jabbed back after my first two jabs before I can put another move in there.

 

[G-Sword]

Depends on where I land with the Dair. If its in front of them, I'm probably going to end up getting grabbed if I dont roll quickly, or if they do something before I hit the ground. If I land behind them then its infinitely safer. Usually if I miss, I normally try to get out of there, but again, its completely situational.


I cheat and set my c-stick to attack and then just walk forward and jab using the c-stick

Im gonna start messing around with it during FG. Try using jab since its only 2frames if u land in front. If behind utilt. I think this will be great to mix up between using a fast fall dair and the normal fall lagless fair just to throw them off.

Foxs walk is deadly since its one of the fastest in the game, its one of the best moves u can do because people anticipate u running all the time or rolling and get thrown off by walking. Even going from mid to power walk works great. Fox is all about punishing the crap out of people up close. Running away is the safest route to go to avoid attacks but u can't punish. Rolling away is the next best thingthing to avoid attacks and you can so what punish people depending on the situation. Now walking away is not the safest but it offers the best option for punishing. Walking is what seperates good fox players from the best.

Honestly to me fox is easily the best in the game. But u have to be extremely technical and precise. U can't just fling attacks hoping they hit like certain characters have the ability to do that and not get punish for it. Since fox is deadly up close he can punish anyone for doing that better than anyone. U have to know certain moves u can combo into and what u can't just throw out so u don't get punished. Have good reads and punish them for every small mistake that's what I love about fox. He has the ability to cut out anyone's bull crap and kick them til there butt falls off. U just have to outsmart your opponent,keep them close, know the spacing and timing of attacks, landing, rolls, etc.

What options are best up close vs characters with fast jabs? Often times I'm getting jabbed back after my first two jabs before I can put another move in there.

What characters u having issues with? Usually its best to block against opponents that have really fast jabs that can attack right after the 1-2 like falcon, falcon, fox

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

Falcon, Sheik, and Falco are three in particular that I play against a lot. I just have to get into the habit of shielding after my jabs because I always attempt to grab or accidentally go into rapid kicks. Falcon in particular destroys me because he just does gentleman -> Falcon pressure which racks up tons of damage.

 

[G-Sword]

Falcon, Sheik, and Falco are three in particular that I play against a lot. I just have to get into the habit of shielding after my jabs because I always attempt to grab or accidentally go into rapid kicks. Falcon in particular destroys me because he just does gentleman -> Falcon pressure which racks up tons of damage.

At low percents like 20% or lower try to avoid any combos or the 1-2 on him. At 0% u do the 1-2 and immediately he can hit u before you get your shield up and I believe before u can go into rapid kicks.

@ STiCKYBULL3TZ I take that back. I think the safest thing to do is actually do the 1-2 into rapid kicks on falcon but u must hold down A. I been testing it out and it works fine. Only thing is if he is crouching and than does his a combo than u will cancel out before u do rapid kicks. This might work best on all the fast fallers except fox. I know u can't do that on him in early %. Fox can shield right before the rapid kicks even if u hold it down

 

[RPK]

Walking is incredibly underrated. All I do is walk, powershield, perfect pivot, fox trot, dash dance, and combine those with the occasional backroll.

EDIT: Oh, and of course just double jump and what not.