Mission Complete! A guide on Fox in brawl+ UPDATED 10/20/09

[BG3]

Just a guess.

 

[Jam23]

wow this site is dead, so what you guys think of Fox 6.0, how much has changed?

I'd definitely say Fox is best at this point.

Changelist? I still have 5.00.

I havent read a lot of this topic but I have a small little problem with Fox.

I love everything about him so far except for one thing.... I remember in the 5.0 version fox was able to jab-cancel to a grab which (to me) added a lot of depth in his play style. I wish this would return for the final version.

The good news is that Fox can JC shine multiple times depending on if the opponent can tech properly. Its a pretty cool way of thinking you're wave shining (IIRC in vBrawl it was called Shine Dash). Fox can also JC shine to an Up-smash which is pretty useful. At first I had a bit of a problem trying to use his shine in combos for some reason but then I found out that you can easily combo into the shine with Neutral-Air and Down-Air.

 

[Kei_Takaro]

We didn't record the Near Gold changelist sadly
I'd like the jab-cancel to grab back too, lol I wish that came with Sonic XD

 

[_Yes!_]

Latest brawl+ fox is garbage. I'm not bothering with such an awful shell of what used to be an amazing character. Dropping him for Snake/Wolf.

 

[kr3wman]

wolf is also a shell of his former self.

 

[Alphatron]

Latest brawl+ fox is garbage. I'm not bothering with such an awful shell of what used to be an amazing character. Dropping him for Snake/Wolf.

I remember seeing vids of your Fox in the past. Care to elaborate on this?

 

[_Yes!_]

Nair/utilt don't combo into anything anymore. Dthrow's damage output was halved and doesn't combo into anything anymore. Bair's damage output was reduced by a third, and fair's damage output was reduced also. His lazer does 1-2 instead of 2-3 now. He's really weak, and isn't worth using.

 

[Bandit]

You mean he was balanced and all his auto-combo easy mode stuff was taken away.

JC Shine is his game now.

 

[Veril]

Q.Q

I'd talk about the Fox changes more were I the one who made them. "Makes note to discuss Fox with Cape..."

Yes! if you've got a specific suggestion you should PM me. The majority of the changes to fox coming into 6.0 were a result of the change in hitstun keep in mind.

So who wants to take over this guide?

wolf is also a shell of his former self.

I can't take you seriously.

 

[VietGeek]

i think krewman meant wolf's nair is a shell of its former self

then maybe we'd be inclined to agree

 

[Veril]

the 5.0 nair was one of the worst things to ever come out of this project. EVER

 

[BG3]

the 5.0 nair was one of the worst things to ever come out of this project. EVER

*Cough* Lucario's Up-B *Cough*

 

[VietGeek]

don't tell anyone i said this (because most ppl here are literate enough in english to read this): but i think the wbr was just having too much fun with Conditional Action Modifier that one fateful summer's night

and it stuck

because no one plays this game and definitely no one plays lucario

obv

 

[kr3wman]

yeah exactly viet.

 

[matt4300]

*Cough* Lucario's Up-B *Cough*

*Cough* seconded ... *Cough*


Honestly yes!.... Foxes damage percents and auto combos were strait up cheap... Normaly I would say "too good" or "OP" or some other smashboards freindly term, but not for this. When you do more damage than ganondorf your CHEAP.

Utilt- 10% (what?)

Usmash-17

Bair-15 (thats heavy character damage

Uair 16 (it still does AND it combos into itself multiple times)

Dair- 21!!! (gay)

fair- 23... no seriously 23



Fact is when you are one of the fastest characters in the game with beyond ganondorf damage output, auto combos, a spammy projectile, and crazy low percent comboable kill moves. Your gonna get nerfed hard. Fox is balanced now and still has a **** good moveset.

 

[iLink]

I don't get whats up with all the QQ'ing about Lucario's upb. You KNOW Lucario isn't going to go for the ledge so his recovery is obvious. If you are getting hit while he recovers, then block first >.>

I think Fox is fine now, I thought his Dair was silly when it did 21%. If anything, I think his bair was slightly overnerfed.

 

[matt4300]

I don't get whats up with all the QQ'ing about Lucario's upb. You KNOW Lucario isn't going to go for the ledge so his recovery is obvious. If you are getting hit while he recovers, then block first >.>

I think Fox is fine now, I thought his Dair was silly when it did 21%. If anything, I think his bair was slightly overnerfed.

I would have nerfed it to 12 damage ... but thats just me. Its not like you can combo out of it.

Seriously its not how gay it is for recovering. Its that if he wants some chars cant even hit him... It aids his recovery (makeing it one of the best) his killing, His pressure game, his camping, and his gimping.... Its has so many amazing uses ON TOP OF the fact that he is already high tier vbrawl and has had little to no nerfs....

Probley shouldnt discuss this on the fox thread.

 

[Alphatron]

Fox bair wasn't even that good if you ask me. Then again, I'm spoiled by Falco and Wolf's bairs. Yes! would know more about Fox than I would but I still thought he was

Fact is when you are one of the fastest characters in the game with beyond ganondorf damage output, auto combos, a spammy projectile, and crazy low percent comboable kill moves. Your gonna get nerfed hard.

THE FIGHT IS ON! YOU'RE NOT READY YET!

 

[SillyGrampa]

Seriously I don't know how Pit hasn't come up in this conversation yet, he hands out damage like it's his job and is still a fairly mobile character. If anyone needs a nerf I think it is Pit.

 

[JCaesar]

lolwut ?

 

[Veril]

If anyone needs a nerf I think it is Pit.

Blind would be soooo POed

On a more serious on topic note:

Hey Veril can you make fox not suck?

Thanks

if you can convince more than half of the people in the B+broom and have concrete evidence that fox is genuinely bad, not just "less ****", without referencing 5.0 (arguments based on 5.0 aren't valid. I'm using 6.0 as the baseline/point from which to proceed to gold). Yes, in that case its totally possible. The old fox changes weren't my decision, but I can't say that I disagree with them any more than I could say I disagreed with MK's nair nerf (though it made me very sad).

Edited for ease of reference and clarity.


At this point I don't see Fox ever winning a tourney.


The damage output nerfs were fine, but removing any sort of combo game he had is pretty bad.

1. Fox's combo game is limited. He has no safe way to start a combo.
a• Dair can lead to utilt/grab but that's about it, no further combos after that.
b• Nair doesn't combo into anything except shine, and the 5% is not worth the risk.
c• D-throw now leads to a tech chase a-la melee, but it won't lead to any combo'ing
d• U-throw to uair is very situational and highly unlikely.
e• No way to combo into up-smash other than shff fair.

2. The damage output on most of his moves have been weakened.
a• dthrow does 5 instead of 9
b• bair does 10 instead of 15.
c•fair does 18 instead of 23
d•laser does 1-2 instead of 2-3.

1. The reduction in comboability was largely the result of the global reduction in hitstun, which hit fox harder than most, moreso than any of our changes directly. D-throw's change is fine imo as it mirrors many many other d-throws. People could argue whether 1a, b, or e are genuinely major problems (though personally I think b is dumb if true), but since I don't want to argue Fox with you subjectively, I have to address the factual truth of a, b, d, and e. Not to say I don't believe you, but... its me, I am more than capable of getting the data to be 100% certain (and its my job), so I will be doing so tomorrow post-smashfest.

2. I agree with all of the damage nerfs and don't think reverting the damage is a possibility.

Anything underlined needs to be clarified.

"to be continued after science"

 

[MacKellarTeam1]

Does no one use shine combo's. If you get someone and they do not tech quickly enough it can lead to a quick up smash finish. Or a running combo for more damage. Thats how I do it with fox. Although I did kinda ditch him for Yoshi.

 

[GHNeko]

People still play Fox?

 

[iLink]

I play fox : (

 

[MacKellarTeam1]

I play fox : (

Don't worry you are not alone!
Just almost alone I guess...

 

[goodoldganon]

I've been looking at playing Fox recently but I just don't know. From my playtime with him he just feels like everything is almost there. Maybe I just need to be a little faster, but it just seems like he has no true combos. I'll practice more though

 

[Talon]

I've been looking at playing Fox recently but I just don't know. From my playtime with him he just feels like everything is almost there. Maybe I just need to be a little faster, but it just seems like he has no true combos. I'll practice more though

Master Fox's Bankai and flashstep will be all yours.lol. On a serious note, I've found many varieties of combos that give him high speed. His JC shine does wonders for me linking comboes.

 

[Plum]

Fox feels so **** now. I don't play him, but I've seen him in action a few times.
It's scary how early he's able to kill with the lower ceilings. He's probably among the characters who the stage boundaries affected the most because they mostly consisted of the lowered ceilings.

Might just be me, but it seems like he went from "**** into **** into run around until I can get a lucky kill" to "**** into **** into rapekill."

I think that Fox was probably the worst of the space animals last set, but this time around I don't know if I can say that anymore. The percents his Usmash kill at alone are frightening.

 

[MacKellarTeam1]

Fox can be pretty **** but can also get ***** and gimped pretty easily due to his gravity and predictable recovery. But I still main him.

 

[Talon]

His chained combos rack up heavy damage quickly if the opponent isn't fasst enough to get out of them so it's like hand Fox a nice 32 oz rare steak on a silver platter. lol

 

[Veril]

Might just be me, but it seems like he went from "**** into **** into run around until I can get a lucky kill" to "**** into **** into rapekill."

I think that Fox was probably the worst of the space animals last set, but this time around I don't know if I can say that anymore. The percents his Usmash kill at alone are frightening.

Yeah, the only Fox player who's complaints I ever listened to was Yes! The other people complaining weren't good with Fox to begin with.

Eventually I'll get around to writing up my report on the fox research I did (school/work/project johns). Suffice to say it will be eye opening for anyone who thinks Fox sucks in this set.


Oh also...

Fox's up-smash
hits frame 8
kills 69-99 no DI FD. Jiggs - DK.

****!

 

[GHNeko]

Dair combos into Shine 100%, right?

Like it's an inescapable thing when frame perfect.

 

[Veril]

Assuming you aren't factoring in perfect SDI, which requires you predict the dair. Of course that's not realistic... so yes, frame perfect execution of dair shine is a combo.

But? Nobody ever said d-air shine didn't work, and I've never seen a properly executed dair shine fail (and really, its f***ing easy to do, why would someone mess it up?). Didn't bother testing what Yes! cited as one of the two reliable combos from dair (shine and grab). I focused on what he said didn't work...

 

[shanus]

Assuming you aren't factoring in perfect SDI, which requires you predict the dair. Of course that's not realistic... so yes, frame perfect execution of dair shine is a combo.

But? Nobody ever said d-air shine didn't work, and I've never seen a properly executed dair shine fail (and really, its f***ing easy to do, why would someone mess it up?). Didn't bother testing what Yes! cited as one of the two reliable combos from dair (shine and grab). I focused on what he said didn't work...

I may have this wrong as I did this in frame advance long ago and didn't write this down, but I believe for dair -> shine to actually *register* as a combo you need to land within hitting 2 or 3 frames for it to register. With my fancy no buffered powershield code, this is significantly less of a problem though since now you can shield pressure better with it since they can't dair -> buffered powershield to avoid the shine, they'd actually have to time it frame perfectly for it to work or else you'll come out mostly even.

Since the dair poke on shield was for a long time one of fox's best approach move, the removal of buffered powershields is actually a substantial buff to foxes pressure game in B+.

With that said, he is still boring

 

[GHNeko]

Veril would you happen to know Frame Advantaged shield with Shine?

 

[Veril]

Veril would you happen to know Frame Advantaged shield with Shine?

ugh. I found that a while ago for Cape. Its... really good. I'm gonna have to find the notebook I wrote it down in.

I may have this wrong as I did this in frame advance long ago and didn't write this down, but I believe for dair -> shine to actually *register* as a combo you need to land within hitting 2 or 3 frames for it to register.

Oh nos. People have to FF with a Fox aerial?! BLASPHEMY! I can't think of any other characters that suffer as terrible a blow as needing to press down during an aerial to gain the maximum advantage framewise. That's assuming this is true... which I'm not completely convinced of. Maybe you tested it in GSH1? That would explain it.

And yes, the no powershield buffering code is indeed the s***.

 

[shanus]

Oh, I wasn't complaining, just tossing data out there and saying that the advantage is very low for a true combo, but stating how the latest code actually makes it less of a disadvantage.

 

[Veril]

Oooo, ok.

Do you remember whether you tested using the final hit or linking hits? Landing within 3 frames of hit with the linking hits is really really easy since the linking hits are spaced 3 frames apart ;p

A true combo with tight timing is still a true combo. You also have to keep in mind that testing on any given grounded character at 0% is not a good measure of a moves advantage window.

 

[GHNeko]

Couldnt it still be buffered Shanus?

 

[Veril]

Couldnt it still be buffered Shanus?

couldn't what be buffered?

Powershield: no.

Shield: only if you mess up. If Shanus was right about landing within 3 frames, than all you have to do is land during the linking hits or right after the final hit. That's so easy >.<