Metaknight's Match-up List

[Fizzle]

"At close range Lucario is not only outranged but MK attacks faster. Lucario has nothing to fight MK with at close range. He he has to camp him."

Again, you underestimate Lucario's close range game. Luc's jabs, grabs, and tilts aren't that much slower than MK's. Ftilt has great range and dtilt has IASA frames. Sure, MK's are better, but a smart Lucario won't be taking the fight at close range. Luc's goal in this fight is to space well, keep MK away, and harass him with his long range.

"You keep mentioning Lucario's Bair, but it's really not that good. Range is decent, but it's not all that fast and it's one of Lucario's laggier aerials."

It's the same as fsmash. If Luc is spacing well, then MK can't do jack **** about it.

"How is Lucario going to be killing more reliably? With F-smash? If he is using that to wall MK then it will usually be weakened and MK can still get early gimps before Lucario is damaged enough to get a significant boost."

Again, how often is an MK going to get low % gimps in a competitive match? Gimps are certainly beneficial to MK, but MK can't rely on them to win the match every time. And, honestly, MK doesn't really destroy Lucario all that worse offstage than others. MK gimps everybody, but people still find ways around it.

Onstage, Lucario will live very long and his attacks will be devastating. At high aura, fsmash can kill as low as 80, and bair, AS, and dair will kill well also. Don't forget that BAS does, like, 12%, too. And if attacks start to get stale, then Luc's crazy fast grab pummel can replensish his moves easily. Excluding gimps, Lucario should have a much easier time landing KOs in this match.

The bottom line: MK has advantages over speed and gimps, but Lucario outranges him and lands KOs better. How can anyone say that's not even?

 

[Mmac]

Again with Yoshi's placement?

I won't say what hasn't been said already, but I will say that Yoshi pretty much has an advantage on Flat Stages (Final Destination, Smashville, Pictochat, Castle Siege to an extent) And any stage with a form of Walkoff (Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, Distant Planet, Green Hill Zone, and Maybe Yoshi's Island Melee). Everywhere else is a more or less even matchup between the two.

I actually say that he should be around Borderline Even, 50-50. Yoshi just has more advantaged stages to counterpick, and MetaKnight can't really pick a stage to gain an Noticeable Advantage himself (Except maybe one)

 

[TKD]

And, honestly, MK doesn't really destroy Lucario all that worse offstage than others.

The bottom line: MK has advantages over speed and gimps, but Lucario outranges him and lands KOs better. How can anyone say that's not even?

LOL, MK doesn't really destroy Lucario, EVER. Why be specific? I have seen MK's defensive game outplay Lucario's though, even though people only talk about Lucario's defensive play.

Let's wait for the Lucario boards to argue this matchup out. Maybe their point of view is different from the guys at the MK forum.

Again with Yoshi's placement?

I actually say that he should be around Borderline Even, 50-50. Yoshi just has more advantaged stages to counterpick, and MetaKnight can't really pick a stage to gain an Noticeable Advantage himself (Except maybe one)

I posted it right...Yoshi's match-up chart has MK as 45-55, almost even.

 

[darkspatan117]

Again with Yoshi's placement?

I won't say what hasn't been said already, but I will say that Yoshi pretty much has an advantage on Flat Stages (Final Destination, Smashville, Pictochat, Castle Siege to an extent) And any stage with a form of Walkoff (Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, Distant Planet, Green Hill Zone, and Maybe Yoshi's Island Melee). Everywhere else is a more or less even matchup between the two.

I actually say that he should be around Borderline Even, 50-50. Yoshi just has more advantaged stages to counterpick, and MetaKnight can't really pick a stage to gain an Noticeable Advantage himself (Except maybe one)

I would say 60/40 at the cg is not that good and i'm pretty sure the grab release to spike is not that good and can be avoided

 

[Mmac]

I would say 60/40 at the cg is not that good and i'm pretty sure the grab release to spike is not that good and can be avoided

Define a Chaingrab being good. Of course it doesn't do good damage wise, but thats not what it's suppose to do. What it suppose to do is to put Yoshi completely in control of the match, and puts MetaKnight into a spot he doesn't want to be in. Not to mention that he has a Chaingrab makes Yoshi into a Scary and Dangerous for MetaKnight to face, being on a stage which has a Permanent Walkoff (Distant Planet, Green Hill Zone, Yoshi Island Melee), or stages with a Temporary Walkoff (Castle Seige, Delfino Plaza)

Plus he has plenty of release options, most of which can be done on any stage. The Release off Ledge to Fair Spike has been proved to be inescapable multiple times with proper timing and/or Location of release. Even without that, he still has plenty of ways to Kill and Gather Damage out of a release.

 

[Fizzle]

LOL, MK doesn't really destroy Lucario, EVER. Why be specific? I have seen MK's defensive game outplay Lucario's though, even though people only talk about Lucario's defensive play.

I was exaggerating. From how I read it, Emblem Lord made it sound like MK destroys Lucario offstage, which is hardly the case. Gimps give MK an advantage, but they won't make the matchup in his favor.

Lucario can play a great offensive game, too - in fact, it's almost key to switch styles with aura boost - and I have seen Lucario's offensive game outplay MK's on several occasions, as well. Seriously, the match is dead even. I think M2K was going a little too far with 40-60, but I don't see any reason why this shouldn't be 50-50.

And to respond to your previous point, approaching with tornado won't work for MK. Like, half of Lucario's moveset can go through that move, and Lucario can always just angle shield up and punish like everyone else does.

I doubt you'll get any of the Lucario guys in this thread unless you go around asking.

 

[TKD]

I was exaggerating. From how I read it, Emblem Lord made it sound like MK destroys Lucario offstage, which is hardly the case. Gimps give MK an advantage, but they won't make the matchup in his favor.

Lucario can play a great offensive game, too - in fact, it's almost key to switch styles with aura boost - and I have seen Lucario's offensive game outplay MK's on several occasions, as well. Seriously, the match is dead even. I think M2K was going a little too far with 40-60, but I don't see any reason why this shouldn't be 50-50.

And to respond to your previous point, approaching with tornado won't work for MK. Like, half of Lucario's moveset can go through that move, and Lucario can always just angle shield up and punish like everyone else does.

I doubt you'll get any of the Lucario guys in this thread unless you go around asking.

I read the other character-specific forums. Most of them have quite active character match-up discussions and some have preliminary match-up charts already. What I tried to say was to wait for the Lucario board's matchup odds discussion on MK.

If MK nadoes while you're already f-smashing, you're in the middle of an attack. How can you counter? You just don't. That would be the result of mindlessly spamming fsmash. Fsmash isn't that incredibly great. It's good, but it's not like IC's desynched Blizzard or anything like that.

 

[Timbers]

I doubt you'll get any of the Lucario guys in this thread unless you go around asking.

>_>

Luc's offensive game is just bad against Meta. Meta has answers to any situation to get out of Luc's pressure game. Luc has no safe approaches against Meta, either. So it's kind of hard to actually get the ball rolling on that.

Best bet is playing defensive and keeping the game on the ground, where at least Luc has some hope in taking the win. Meta's airgame shuts down Lucario so hard.

Luc's close range game was never exceptional, and against Meta with the like...4 frame ftilt or some ****, it's not worth trying to combat him at close range. The best you can do is jab or utilt him to get him out of your face and gain some space.

I mean, I guess I can agree on the 50:50, but that can go even more into Meta's favor depending on the stage. Battlefield is brutal for Luc against a Metaknight, as well as Lylat.

 

[DanGR]

Pokemon Trainer isn't listed, and Olimar v MK isn't that advantaged for him. It's more like 60/40.

 

[Fizzle]

Lolz sorry Timbers. I thought I was all alone here..... don't hurt me.

If MK nadoes while you're already f-smashing, you're in the middle of an attack. How can you counter? You just don't. That would be the result of mindlessly spamming fsmash. Fsmash isn't that incredibly great. It's good, but it's not like IC's desynched Blizzard or anything like that.

Your example is just an error of spacing on Lucario's part. If fact, in that case you wouldn't have even needed tornado. If you were that close, a dash attack or grab are much safer options. All Lucario has to do to counter an aerial nado is walk back and fsmash.... or better yet just shield.

Fsmash is Lucario's best spacing tool in this matchup. It's not really the best move in the game or anything, but in this matchup it's gold.

 

[Timbers]

Nados should be used sparingly against Lucario. Luc (surprisingly) can punish it better than most characters. Meta almost always has a better option than nado against Lucario, anyways.

 

[Steeler]

charizard can play a mean defensive game

 

[TKD]

I finally fixed the P.Trainer thing.

 

[Steeler]

i'd say the rating is closer to 60/40 than 70/30 due to the fact that pt can use charizard for two stocks and then split the third between the other two.

i'd be totally open for some reinterpretation on the pt matchups (switching squirtle and ivy's ratings for example), but as it stands right now, pt overall should be at slight advantage mk, 60/40.

 

[Affinity]

How is Charizard 55:45?

65:35 makes more sense to me, considering Squirtle is more difficult to deal with.


Also, Yoshi should be 60:40 at least; he's not as effective against MK as he's been hyped up to be lately.

 

[Mmac]

Also, Yoshi should be 60:40 at least; he's not as effective against MK as he's been hyped up to be lately.

And what makes you say that?

 

[TKD]

OMG, the Yoshi thing again? I've seen enough discussion over that, and seriously, Yoshi does better against MK than Snake and Falco, two characters anciently thought to have advantage over Metaknight.

Tournament results say no to that.

About P.T., it's supposed to go Ivysaur as the easiest (you know it's dead even before it gets played) and Charizard as the hardest (some defensive options). I don't want to disagree with the other boards, I don't think I know better.

I'm rechecking the "Meta Knight's Revenge" thread. Practically everything matches except the Diddy Kong matchup odds, which were taken from the Diddy Kong board for this. Same thing with Olimar too, but it was taken from this thread while it was still in progress.

EDIT: Corrected the King Dedede odds and moved him down from neutral, as stated by the MK board.

 

[Gindler]

How is Charizard 55:45?

65:35 makes more sense to me, considering Squirtle is more difficult to deal with.


Also, Yoshi should be 60:40 at least; he's not as effective against MK as he's been hyped up to be lately.

I kinda agree with you there. I did manage to pull of the guaranteed spike at a tourney yesterday but that and the chain grab don't really break the game into yoshi's favor, MKs just too fast and builds up too much momentum against yoshi during the match

PS: frigate is an excellent counter pick against yoshi as I learned, but Final D the yoshi pretty much wins (so ban that?)

But yeah I can't see PT having an advantage on MK, sure Charizard has a mean defensive game and rocksmash is a pain to deal with since it has some armor and a lingering hit box, and he might be able to break out of nado and hurt MK using the armor in his UpB but other than that IDK. Oh and don't keep IVY out as mk is a master edgeguarder and ivy is the master of being edgeguarded

 

[Mmac]

He doesn't have too much momentum, unless you are playing aggressive, or screwed up your defencive. By playing Defencive, you can put MetaKnight's momentum into a control which you can take advantage on.

 

[Gindler]

Well, I'm one of the more aggressive yoshi that I've seen. Standing back and throwing eggs or waiting for them to come to me isn't really my style...

 

[Mmac]

Well there's your problem. MetaKnight isn't exactly someone you want to go Aggressive against. Not only that, but he will have the free will to go defencive, something you really don't want him to do

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

maybe I'm missing the math somewhere.... but how can MK go
50:50 v Charlie
60:40 v squirtz
and
70:30 v Ivy

and yet go 70:30 v. PT as a whole?

considering that PT only REALLY has to play two characters the entire match... there's no WAY the matchup should be any worse than 60:40

 

[TKD]

Fixed. There is no difficulty rating for Pokemon Trainer as a whole, but that sounds logical.

 

[Olimarman]

No bad matchups, rofl...

Olimar and Mk go about 55/45 Mk. It all depends on which player outsmarts the other. Good Olimars know how to avoid getting gimped.

 

[TKD]

Checked the Olimar thread. That is sick. Well, update time.

 

[Affinity]

After playing a few matches with a good PT main yesterday, my views on PT have changed:

Charizard - 60:40
Ivysaur -70:30
Squirtle - 65:35

I'm now convinced that Charizard is a slightly harder match-up then Squirtle, but there's no way Charizard is 50:50.

 

[TKD]

Updated. Thank you.
In my opinion, Ivysaur belongs in 80/20. Just imagine only fighting Ivysaur the 3 stocks. The Trainer boards state Ivy's odds are 30/70 though.

 

[Gates]

I don't understand how Zelda and Shiek indiviually are 70:30 but combined are 50:50. I've only skimmed the thread, but does someone want to explain this to me? I played Zelda for about a month when the game came out so I know how good her defensive game is, but she can just do that on her own. Do people transform into Shiek as soon as MK gets within range and then try and ftiltlock him or something? If so, what's to stop MK from charging a smash during the transformation lag?

 

[Sinz]

Snake and Falco are still 60:40 in their favor.

Diddy, is 50:50, Lucario is 50:50 GaW is 50:50, 50:50 with DK, and Same with Kirby.

 

[TKD]

Snake and Falco are still 60:40 in their favor.

Diddy, is 50:50, Lucario is 50:50 GaW is 50:50, 50:50 with DK, and Same with Kirby.

And that would be why? Lucario's fsmash is practically unpunishable, his aura sphere also. He can outprioritize everything MK has. He lasts up to high percentages. But he can't handle MK's defensive game. And if Lucario goes on the offensive, he can easily get shut down. G&W is outranged, outprioritized, dies more quickly (it is unusual for G&W to land a smash, we're talking top-level here), isn't even. Kirby's outranged and can get edgeguarded. That's not too much, but some advantage. That pretty much negates him being able to KO as early as 90% when near the edge.

And Snake/Falco beating MK? That's just not right. A lot of people know this, or you could just ask DSF or SK92 about that...no character's known to have an advantage against MK at the moment. Right now, I only think Zelda/Sheik have that chance. Snake may get even, even advantaged, if people prove his intimidating grenade pivot to be that effective.

I don't understand how Zelda and Shiek indiviually are 70:30 but combined are 50:50. I've only skimmed the thread, but does someone want to explain this to me? I played Zelda for about a month when the game came out so I know how good her defensive game is, but she can just do that on her own. Do people transform into Shiek as soon as MK gets within range and then try and ftiltlock him or something? If so, what's to stop MK from charging a smash during the transformation lag?

I'll post a vid up today on Zelda/Sheik vs MK. I think she beats MK, but right now it's marked as even. The Zelda+Sheik tagteam has proven to be much more effective against at least half of Zelda and Sheik's matchups, than only playing as one. Plus, the Sheik boards have marked the MK matchup as 30/70 for both Sheik and Zelda, individually. The odds for the tag team are marked low also, but it may be outdated.

Just in case, I'll recheck all of those matchups right now.

 

[Affinity]

I think you accidentally put Squirtle as 70:30.

 

[TKD]

I think you accidentally put Squirtle as 70:30.

Yes. You said 65/35, and I rounded up the odds. Given that Charizard is harder, Squirtle can't possibly be at 60/40. Besides, have you seen the characters listed as 60/40? They're all high/top tier characters that have a lot of effective options. Squirtle's not in that league.

 

[Affinity]

Yes. You said 65/35, and I rounded up the odds. Given that Charizard is harder, Squirtle can't possibly be at 60/40. Besides, have you seen the characters listed as 60/40? They're all high/top tier characters that have a lot of effective options. Squirtle's not in that league.

Makes sense. In that case you may want to consider putting Ivysaur at 80:20, assuming Ivysaur is a much easier match-up than Squirtle.

 

[TKD]

Stuff updated. I'm only doubting Donkey Kong and Falco right now. DK may be worse than how he's listed, and Falco may be better. There's not much I can do about it though. Both are like...zombie threads. They look alive, but they're not.

 

[Ulevo]

And that would be why? Lucario's fsmash is practically unpunishable, his aura sphere also. He can outprioritize everything MK has. He lasts up to high percentages. But he can't handle MK's defensive game. And if Lucario goes on the offensive, he can easily get shut down. G&W is outranged, outprioritized, dies more quickly (it is unusual for G&W to land a smash, we're talking top-level here), isn't even. Kirby's outranged and can get edgeguarded. That's not too much, but some advantage. That pretty much negates him being able to KO as early as 90% when near the edge.

And Snake/Falco beating MK? That's just not right. A lot of people know this, or you could just ask DSF or SK92 about that...no character's known to have an advantage against MK at the moment. Right now, I only think Zelda/Sheik have that chance. Snake may get even, even advantaged, if people prove his intimidating grenade pivot to be that effective.


I'll post a vid up today on Zelda/Sheik vs MK. I think she beats MK, but right now it's marked as even. The Zelda+Sheik tagteam has proven to be much more effective against at least half of Zelda and Sheik's matchups, than only playing as one. Plus, the Sheik boards have marked the MK matchup as 30/70 for both Sheik and Zelda, individually. The odds for the tag team are marked low also, but it may be outdated.

Just in case, I'll recheck all of those matchups right now.

Please explain to me again why Lucario would have to approach Meta Knight? Lucario has the projectile. You also contradicted yourself. How can Lucario out prioritize everything Meta Knight has, and not be able to cope with his defensive game? I agree the match up is 50/50, but what you're claiming doesn't fly.

G&W is not out ranged. Nothing Meta Knight has out ranges the turtle and Meta Knight has to pick and choose his attacks vs G&W in order to out range him. His aerials don't override the Fair either. The Uair hitbox is huge, not to mention the Nair hitbox. Meta Knights Uair can beat the Dair, but it requires very strict timing and the pay off is rarely ever worth the risk.

Meta Knight does not out prioritize G&W.

As for dying quickly, you are not giving enough credit to a supposed high leveled G&W user, while only giving credit to a high leveled played Meta Knight. The bottom line is, no matter how fast and good the DSmash is, G&W will land Smash attacks on Meta Knight, especially with a skilled player. Even on equal skill, it will happen. And G&W's attacks are much stronger. The only things Meta Knight has on G&W is less lag, a slightly better recovery, and he's slightly heavier. The last two barely even matter.

Falco, again... He out prioritizes almost every option Meta Knight has, and if he gets too close, he receives a guaranteed 60%+. Meta Knight dies at early percents, so that isn't a situation he likes to be in. It's not anymore than a 60/40 match up, but its still not in Meta Knights favour.

I'm not the expert on Snake, but I definitely believe statistically Snake wins. Snakes only downfall is that he's edge guarded easily, which is a weakness that can be remedied.

EDIT:

I just looked at the OP, and I'm dumbfounded. This is getting kinda silly now actually. Can you please explain to me how Sheik and Zelda go even with Meta Knight, as well as Wolf?

Wolf, excluding his Reflector, gets slaughters by Meta Knight due to priority and terrible recovery. Lasers don't even account for anything since they're so slow.

Sheik gets out prioritizes on like... Everything. She has Needles, sure. She also has a Boost Smash and Release Grab that in combination could kill Meta Knight at probably 70%. But I have yet to see anyone master that.

 

[Ace76]

IMO G&W and MK are an even match up. G&W's bair has more range then everyone of MK's moves but f tilt. G&W's foward smash usually kills MK around 90. His down smash also kills MK quickly. G&W's down throw to down smash works on MK, and G&W bacon stops MK's shuttle loop. This is just my opinion though.

 

[-Jumpman-]

IMO G&W and MK are an even match up. G&W's bair has more range then everyone of MK's moves but f tilt. G&W's foward smash usually kills MK around 90. His down smash also kills MK quickly. G&W's down throw to down smash works on MK, and G&W bacon stops MK's shuttle loop. This is just my opinion though.

Mach Tornado beats G&W's bair. G&W's d-throw should be tech'd. No one uses bacon because it is not efficient and has lag.

DOn't forget G&W is also very light, this means G&W is killed just as easily as MK is by G&W.

 

[IceDX]

Mach Tornado beats G&W's bair. G&W's d-throw should be tech'd. No one uses bacon because it is not efficient and has lag.

DOn't forget G&W is also very light, this means G&W is killed just as easily as MK is by G&W.

Thats pretty accurate.......

 

[TKD]

Metaknight has a tough time against Wolf too. Any follow-up or edgeguard attempts against Wolf from below (including Shuttle Loop) can be shined away very easily. Wolf's bair has more, or at least just as much range as MK's fair, so given that they both hit each other, Wolf is hit by the 1st swipe that has no knockback, while MK gets hit by...a bair.

Metaknight can't do much about well placed blasters either, which outprioritize every one of his moves. Wolf can KO from 100% via a near the edge dsmash, at 120% with a forward air and sometimes at 120, maybe more, with an uptilt, which is rarely performed so it usually works.

As long as the Wolf player DIs well and recovers from a bit above stage level, he'll be fine, because again, the reflector's infinite priority on startup can shine away any of MK's edgeguard attempts. Oh, you can shine away a nado too, or if caught in it, you can shine out, if the nado's knockback moment presents itself (it appears somewhere around the middle of the tornado).

Jabs work excellent on MK too. The best he can do is shield them, while the best the Wolf player can do is predict the times MK will shield. I press and hold A, so Wolf keeps jabbing if he misses. It works great against spotdodges.

I think you may be right about Snake, because of his survivability, but he's not worse than D3 or Falco.

I can debate too =)
Both characters have nice strengths against each other.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I'll post a vid up today on Zelda/Sheik vs MK. I think she beats MK, but right now it's marked as even. The Zelda+Sheik tagteam has proven to be much more effective against at least half of Zelda and Sheik's matchups, than only playing as one. Plus, the Sheik boards have marked the MK matchup as 30/70 for both Sheik and Zelda, individually. The odds for the tag team are marked low also, but it may be outdated.

Just in case, I'll recheck all of those matchups right now.

well... Zelda boards don't agree... the shiek boards call zelda vs MK 70:30

but the zelda boards call it 50:50