Metaknight's Match-up List

[Master Raven]

LOOOOOOOOL @ the matchup llist. I'm sorry but the tornado is NOT that ****ing godly, Jesus.

 

[Gindler]

I just like the fact that if MK is grabbed by yoshi at 100% he's a goner...of course a good MK will try and space just out of tongue reach.

 

[Infinitysmash]

You have got to be joking. Please tell me you're joking.

If there's any one thing i know to be true about the matchup between Yoshi and Metaknight it's that he is NOT joking. I play with one of the best Yoshi's in the nation and Bwett constantly gives me problems when I try to get in on his defense.

While I don't agree that Yoshi's D is > Metaknight's O, I do agree that they are pretty equal and that it's virtually impossible to 'get in there' against a good Yoster defense.

 

[Ulevo]

If there's any one thing i know to be true about the matchup between Yoshi and Metaknight it's that he is NOT joking. I play with one of the best Yoshi's in the nation and Bwett constantly gives me problems when I try to get in on his defense.

While I don't agree that Yoshi's D is > Metaknight's O, I do agree that they are pretty equal and that it's virtually impossible to 'get in there' against a good Yoster defense.

We're discussing character statistics and how they effect character match ups, and we're assuming while discussing these match ups that the players in question are at equal skill level. If the best Yoshi in the nation is giving you an issue, it's likely due to him being the better player. I've been ***** by Lucas and I've been ***** by Peach, both while using Meta Knight. I don't see those two on the 5/5 section.

Marth has one of the best defensive styles in this game, and he has an answer for nearly everything. Marths worst match up, despite his defensive prowess, is Meta Knight. He even has a Release Grab of his own on Meta Knight, and still has difficulties. Could you please care to explain to me how Marth can only compete at a 4/6 level vs Meta Knight, and Yoshi goes even, or possibly has an advantage, meanwhile keeping in mind that Marths defensive qualities are much better?

 

[Mmac]

@Infinity:

Well I'm a person who is Pivot Grab Happy (for a lack of a better term), while Bwett is generally plain more aggressive, which I don't approve of much, at least in this matchup (Judging of a video against you two).

My defencive strategy has been working well for me so far against the MetaKnights around here. Bwett does some strange things with him (Trys to fits Neutral B's into his game, He even SHIELD GRABS!) But he's still great with him. And I saw that he got that Release > Fair thing to work on you once

Marth has one of the best defensive styles in this game, and he has an answer for nearly everything. Marths worst match up, despite his defensive prowess, is Meta Knight. He even has a Release Grab of his own on Meta Knight, and still has difficulties. Could you please care to explain to me how Marth can only compete at a 4/6 level vs Meta Knight, and Yoshi goes even, or possibly has an advantage, meanwhile keeping in mind that Marths defensive qualities are much better?

Marth =/= Yoshi, first of all. Yeah, it's Marth, but Yoshi isn't Marth. He too has an answer for every approach MetaKnight has. Pivot Grabs mostly stop everything, while Usmash covers the rest. Marth has Grab Release CG's yeah, but what exactly can he do out of it? Not to mention that Marth is probably going to have an hard time grabbing him in the first place. Yoshi has Multiple Options on release, most of which make it very easy to kill.

Just because Marth has a better defencive style than Yoshi, doesn't mean it will favour him in this matchup. Yoshi does because He can punish a hell of alot more than Marth.

 

[TKD]

Oh my god people, I've tested this game so much...

Donkey Kong has better range than MK on his tilts. An ftilt performed from far away has better range and outprioritizes MK's aerials and tilts. The forward tilt even outprioritizes the Mach Tornado if performed from up close.

So what's the problem with the forward tilt? It outranges so you should perform it from far away. But it only outprioritizes the mach tornado from UP CLOSE, so if the nado is started from far away, it first outprioritizes the tilt and then hits DK. BTW, dtilt gets outprioritized by MK's fair (or MK jumps over the dtilt, something like that).

From a connected Tornado, MK can keep tornadoing DK as DK tries to fall back onto the stage, or try harassing him with aerial moves, since DK's aerials don't protect him in front or below him (dair's slow and has AWESOME landing lag, and fair sucks...and is even slower). Did I mention DK's aerials can't even outprioritize the nado?

MK's nair, fair, dair and shuttle loop all outprioritize DK's recovery move, which makes for a very easy edgeguard.

DK's downsmash can beat MK's nado but not always, and it's so slow you can only rely on prediction. And OF COURSE, predict wrong and you get punished. Besides, the nado thing. DK usually cannot block an entire mach tornado unless he powershielded. If he does powershield, MK can simply get away, which is unpunishable. And if he does block the entire tornado, I assure you he won't do it again with a deteriorated shield.

I KNOW Metaknight beats DK. Donkey just doesn't get ***** as hard.

About Yoshi having a chaingrab...that's really only for KOs and as a "get away from me" technique. He has so many weapons, including his egg toss and a not too laggy upsmash that outprioritizes everything MK can do from above (besides airdodging lolololol). His finishers are hard to pull off (all except the grab release into upsmash), but there are a lot of them, which king of balances it out. His only problem is not being able to outprioritize the tornado from the air. At least not the sides of it. And if tornado hits, it's PRESSURE TIME! Just like with DK.

Lucario and Dedede at even is really too much to say. Dedede can get beaten by unpredictably spamming the nado THE ENTIRE GAME. I have never seen any other character get ***** so hard by the nado. The most usual thing to happen is for Dedede to pull off an outprioritizing uptilt, which is not easy and is only really bad for MK if he's at a high percentage. Oh, and D3 can BARELY only block one whole tornado, if his shield is fresh. If D3 powershields, MK can simply get away unpunished. It's also as easy to tornado a D3 that's trying to fall back onto the stage as it is to do so to a whole lot of other characters (most of the Brawl cast I guess). Oh and the edgeguard. MK easily edgeguards D3, KOing at high %'s. D3 barely edgeguards MK.

Lucario...he has 40% chance to win at equal skill. MK has more weapons. The only way for MK to have a very rough time is for MK to not play defensively. The more defensive, the better (in MK vs Lucario it's even better to bair than to fair, just because of the range). But why not play as defensive as you can if it's the best you can do in that matchup? And while MK can edgeguard Lucario effectively, Lucario can't edgeguard MK. At least not if the MK player isn't careless.

I agree on moving Jiggs up. I actually haven't moved D3 down because I'm still waiting to hear good news about a D3 player beating any great MK. In my experience, D3 never beats MK. In my experience as a Snake and Metaknight player, Snake beats MK only 40% of the time (a MK ditto is harder than fighting Snake).

Ohh and about Yoshi KOing MK at 100%, if the MK player DI's away, the 1st hit of Yoshi's downB move sends MK to far away for the 2nd hit to connect. Also, this combo's timing is already so hard, I think usually holding the block button will save MK. The out of stage spike and nair are hard to pull off, too. As Yoshi, you have to be very well positioned in the place from which you dash outside of the stage.

As MK, I firmly believe Yoshi's harder than Dedede and Lucario. Snake, DK and Diddy Kong are are harder than them too. Maybe there's something I'm missing. I'd like to see some links that change my mind if anyone has them.

EDIT:

This has given me motivation to compiled a complete list of every move and maneuver that can bypass the tornado, just so everyone will stop *****ing about it.

That would help a lot. Even then, most characters usually can't do anything about not getting tornadoed as they try to fall back onto the stage after getting hit upwards.

And moves that outprioritize the nado tend to be laggy enough for MK to punish if he didn't feel like tornadoing that instant. I'm not trying to be a bad sport, the list would still be interesting.

I've been trying to find a character with at least a light advantage over Metaknight by testing, researching and checking results out for a while now. I finished trying. I hope someone else finds it out.

 

[Ulevo]

@Infinity:

Well I'm a person who is Pivot Grab Happy (for a lack of a better term), while Bwett is generally plain more aggressive, which I don't approve of much, at least in this matchup (Judging of a video against you two).

My defencive strategy has been working well for me so far against the MetaKnights around here. Bwett does some strange things with him (Trys to fits Neutral B's into his game, He even SHIELD GRABS!) But he's still great with him. And I saw that he got that Release > Fair thing to work on you once



Marth =/= Yoshi, first of all. Yeah, it's Marth, but Yoshi isn't Marth. He too has an answer for every approach MetaKnight has. Pivot Grabs mostly stop everything, while Usmash covers the rest. Marth has Grab Release CG's yeah, but what exactly can he do out of it? Not to mention that Marth is probably going to have an hard time grabbing him in the first place. Yoshi has Multiple Options on release, most of which make it very easy to kill.

Just because Marth has a better defencive style than Yoshi, doesn't mean it will favour him in this matchup. Yoshi does because He can punish a hell of alot more than Marth.

Marths Grab Release is very effective, and it too has a guaranteed kill move at higher percents through either Fair or Dolphin Slash.

He does not have a guaranteed spike, as much as you would like to believe he does. If you would go into training mode and put it on 1/4 speed and have Meta Knight jump ASAP, you would notice he jumps before he lands. Explain to me how Meta Knight cant react with an Air Dodge below the stage line if he can jump before the stage line?

So that leaves Yoshi with what, USmash? That doesn't sound like a lot of kill options. That sounds like one kill option to me, however still useable.

 

[Mmac]

Marths Grab Release is very effective, and it too has a guaranteed kill move at higher percents through either Fair or Dolphin Slash.

That doesn't kill until the 120's though. Yoshi's kill below the 100's

He does not have a guaranteed spike, as much as you would like to believe he does. If you would go into training mode and put it on 1/4 speed and have Meta Knight jump ASAP, you would notice he jumps before he lands. Explain to me how Meta Knight cant react with an Air Dodge below the stage line if he can jump before the stage line?

You already told me this like 3 times, and I already explained about it. If Yoshi reacts right away, MetaKnight doesn't have enough frames to escape it. Plus it doesn't matter if he can recover above the stage line, the Fair will still hit him. It's alittle disjointed or something, I dunno.

So that leaves Yoshi with what, USmash? That doesn't sound like a lot of kill options. That sounds like one kill option to me, however still useable.

Eh, Release to DownB, Release off Ledge to Nair. He still has 3, which is still alot. Plus he still has a Natural Uair, and a well spaced Fsmash

 

[Ulevo]

Oh my god people, I've tested this game so much...

Donkey Kong has better range than MK on his tilts. An ftilt performed from far away has better range and outprioritizes MK's aerials and tilts. The forward tilt even outprioritizes the Mach Tornado if performed from up close.

So what's the problem with the forward tilt? It outranges so you should perform it from far away. But it only outprioritizes the mach tornado from UP CLOSE, so if the nado is started from far away, it first outprioritizes the tilt and then hits DK. BTW, dtilt gets outprioritized by MK's fair (or MK jumps over the dtilt, something like that).

From a connected Tornado, MK can keep tornadoing DK as DK tries to fall back onto the stage, or try harassing him with aerial moves, since DK's aerials don't protect him in front or below him (dair's slow and has AWESOME landing lag, and fair sucks...and is even slower). Did I mention DK's aerials can't even outprioritize the nado?

MK's nair, fair, dair and shuttle loop all outprioritize DK's recovery move, which makes for a very easy edgeguard.

DK's downsmash can beat MK's nado but not always, and it's so slow you can only rely on prediction. And OF COURSE, predict wrong and you get punished. Besides, the nado thing. DK usually cannot block an entire mach tornado unless he powershielded. If he does powershield, MK can simply get away, which is unpunishable. And if he does block the entire tornado, I assure you he won't do it again with a deteriorated shield.

I KNOW Metaknight beats DK. Donkey just doesn't get ***** as hard.

About Yoshi having a chaingrab...that's really only for KOs and as a "get away from me" technique. He has so many weapons, including his egg toss and a not too laggy upsmash that outprioritizes everything MK can do from above (besides airdodging lolololol). His finishers are hard to pull off (all except the grab release into upsmash), but there are a lot of them, which king of balances it out. His only problem is not being able to outprioritize the tornado from the air. At least not the sides of it. And if tornado hits, it's PRESSURE TIME! Just like with DK.

Lucario and Dedede at even is really too much to say. Dedede can get beaten by unpredictably spamming the nado THE ENTIRE GAME. I have never seen any other character get ***** so hard by the nado. The most usual thing to happen is for Dedede to pull off an outprioritizing uptilt, which is not easy and is only really bad for MK if he's at a high percentage. Oh, and D3 can BARELY only block one whole tornado, if his shield is fresh. If D3 powershields, MK can simply get away unpunished. It's also as easy to tornado a D3 that's trying to fall back onto the stage as it is to do so to a whole lot of other characters (most of the Brawl cast I guess). Oh and the edgeguard. MK easily edgeguards D3, KOing at high %'s. D3 barely edgeguards MK.

Lucario...he has 40% chance to win at equal skill. MK has more weapons. The only way for MK to have a very rough time is for MK to not play defensively. The more defensive, the better (in MK vs Lucario it's even better to bair than to fair, just because of the range). But why not play as defensive as you can if it's the best you can do in that matchup? And while MK can edgeguard Lucario effectively, Lucario can't edgeguard MK. At least not if the MK player isn't careless.

I agree on moving Jiggs up. I actually haven't moved D3 down because I'm still waiting to hear good news about a D3 player beating any great MK. In my experience, D3 never beats MK. In my experience as a Snake and Metaknight player, Snake beats MK only 40% of the time (a MK ditto is harder than fighting Snake).

Ohh and about Yoshi KOing MK at 100%, if the MK player DI's away, the 1st hit of Yoshi's downB move sends MK to far away for the 2nd hit to connect. Also, this combo's timing is already so hard, I think usually holding the block button will save MK. The out of stage spike and nair are hard to pull off, too. As Yoshi, you have to be very well positioned in the place from which you dash outside of the stage.

As MK, I firmly believe Yoshi's harder than Dedede and Lucario. Snake, DK and Diddy Kong are are harder than them too. Maybe there's something I'm missing. I'd like to see some links that change my mind if anyone has them.

EDIT:


That would help a lot. Even then, most characters usually can't do anything about not getting tornadoed as they try to fall back onto the stage after getting hit upwards.

And moves that outprioritize the nado tend to be laggy enough for MK to punish if he didn't feel like tornadoing that instant. I'm not trying to be a bad sport, the list would still be interesting.

I've been trying to find a character with at least a light advantage over Metaknight by testing, researching and checking results out for a while now. I finished trying. I hope someone else finds it out.

DK has a lot more options to beat the Tornado with. DSmash, FSmash, FTilt, DTilt, Bair, Punch... All of these beat the Tornado. Why you only mentioned two is beyond me. And if Meta Knight is stupid enough to try and use Tornado again once DK is popped upwards, he's eating a Dair. That's just playing shot for shot, and that is a game Meta Knight doesn't win at.

Donkey Kong out ranges, out powers, and out weighs Meta Knight in almost every aspect. Meta Knights advantages are his recovery, his speed, and the Tornado. And as I've just stated, Tornado is not a safe option.

Dedede, again, doesn't get ***** by the Tornado. Bair totally and utterly destroys the Tornado, both as a defense against it, and as a reaction from one below. Not to mention Bair kills Meta Knight easily. You can go ahead and spam Tornado all you like, Dedede will just fast fall Bairs into your face until you get the picture. The DSmash does the same thing, and kills Meta Knight at very low %. Dedede can even Dash Grab Meta Knight out of the Tornado. It is also a similar picture with edge guarding him. Bairs out range most of Meta Knights attacks, and Inhale can take a stock if Meta Knight isn't smart about how he recovers.

Like DK, Dedede out ranges, out powers, and out weighs Meta Knight in almost every aspect. And once again, the Tornado is not a safe, spammable idea like everyone seems to believe.

Lucario is like a better Marth with regards to the Meta Knight match up. He has all the tools Marth does excluding a Grab Release except with more power, reliable kill moves, a projectile, and better recovery. Meta Knight can't play defensive reliably on Lucario because Lucario carries Auras Sphere; Meta Knight has to approach at some point. Needless to say, Lucarios defensive abilities are superb and more than capable of matching Meta Knights offensive options.

 

[TKD]

I didn't think the tornado was an incredibly spammable option until I faced a top MK.

And why am -I- arguing? The list isn't even on me. I thought DK and Yoshi beat MK (and so did the DK/Yoshi specific forums) but some other people shut me up. I'll let other advanced players play the arguing game.

 

[Quez256]

Tornado spam doesn't convey skill, so I find it hard to believe you were fighting a top MK who apparently whorenadoed you enough to create a matchup list based solely on that alone.

 

[Gindler]

He does not have a guaranteed spike, as much as you would like to believe he does. If you would go into training mode and put it on 1/4 speed and have Meta Knight jump ASAP, you would notice he jumps before he lands. Explain to me how Meta Knight cant react with an Air Dodge below the stage line if he can jump before the stage line?

So that leaves Yoshi with what, USmash? That doesn't sound like a lot of kill options. That sounds like one kill option to me, however still useable.

I haven't performed this guaranteed spike on an MK (haven't played since i heard about it, well not with yoshi anyway)

Yeah yoshi still has the yoshi bomb (shuttle loopers almost never see this thing coming)

and Fsmash counters glide attack pretty well actually do to the tiny lean back (doesn't sound like it'll work but trust me it has in the past)

Oh my god people, I've tested this game so much...

About Yoshi having a chaingrab...that's really only for KOs and as a "get away from me" technique. He has so many weapons, including his egg toss and a not too laggy upsmash that outprioritizes everything MK can do from above (besides airdodging lolololol). His finishers are hard to pull off (all except the grab release into upsmash), but there are a lot of them, which king of balances it out. His only problem is not being able to outprioritize the tornado from the air. At least not the sides of it. And if tornado hits, it's PRESSURE TIME! Just like with DK.


Ohh and about Yoshi KOing MK at 100%, if the MK player DI's away, the 1st hit of Yoshi's downB move sends MK to far away for the 2nd hit to connect. Also, this combo's timing is already so hard, I think usually holding the block button will save MK. The out of stage spike and nair are hard to pull off, too. As Yoshi, you have to be very well positioned in the place from which you dash outside of the stage.

As MK, I firmly believe Yoshi's harder than Dedede and Lucario. Snake, DK and Diddy Kong are are harder than them too. Maybe there's something I'm missing. I'd like to see some links that change my mind if anyone has them.

Hmmm, well in the air from the sides yoshi can Egg lay to out prioritize the nado. Sure it isn't the easiest thing in the world but hey it's something right?

I have had some people DI far enough away from the 2nd hit to not get killed from it. But only sometimes, and I have had people sheild the first hit and take the shield down and eat the second hit, also broken shields with it (DownB does a pretty decent job of that). I've also just hit with the 2nd hit and not the first knock up hit. So yoshi bomb can be wierd sometimes but yeah not my favorite move for sure.

 

[Master Raven]

How do DK's Fsmash, Dsmash and Dtilt beat the tornado? They have never worked for me and the only way they could possibly work is during the initial frames of the tornado.

Also I do agree that DDD can do well VS MK, regardless of the overrated-as-hell tornado. In fact I find it absurd that some people would base certain matchups on MK's tornado alone.

 

[Takeshi245]

I actually think that Metaknight vs. Mario's actually 8-2 simply because Mario's inability to keep up with him and the way Metaknight can just rush him down even with the fireballs that Mario has to make it more difficult to approach. And as for the Marth vs. Metaknight match-up, it's even. This is what Emblem Lord posted in the Marth match-up thread he made:

Metaknight - A close match. Remember your zoning as always. Pressure his shield if he backs off with well spaced fairs and d-tilts for the most part. Make him approach then when he does force him to get past your fairs, f-tilts and d-tilts. His rushdown is a bit better and so is his pressure. Don't try to aggro him, since you will do better if you force him to take action. If he gets you into air don't panic. You have your counter and your airdodge to fall back on. You could also use neutral b to push you into the air and mess with his spacing/timing. If he is edgeguarding you then you can try to hit him, but it might be rough since he is fast with compareable range. You are better off airdodging or counter. Your up b has alot of speed and priority. It can beat out pretty much anything, so if you are low don't be afraid to use it to plow right through MK. If you want to edgeguard him you have to be precise. I prefer ledge dropping and then double jumped Bairs since they have good knockback. But be careful. Don't try to constantly challenge him since he can use shuttle loop and it can stage spike you. If you think he will use it be sure to hold up as you do your aerial. This way you won't get stage spiked if he uses it and you will DI up. He is light so all your kill moves work well and be sure to punish any mistakes with Dancing Blade. If he approaches with a special move just counter it.-Emblem Lord

I think his point are valid.

 

[Infinitysmash]

We're discussing character statistics and how they effect character match ups, and we're assuming while discussing these match ups that the players in question are at equal skill level. If the best Yoshi in the nation is giving you an issue, it's likely due to him being the better player. I've been ***** by Lucas and I've been ***** by Peach, both while using Meta Knight. I don't see those two on the 5/5 section.

Actually it's because he and I play each other so often that we know each others play styles. He'll tell you himself that I'm better than he is, which makes me feel like a ******* for saying but it's true.

I've been saying this for a while now: the matchups between characters are MUCH less relevant than they were in Melee and the actual ability of the player is infinitely more important. I go into every match knowing that mathematically there is only a 50/50 chance of me winning, so I have to be able to outsmart my opponent in order to win. Regardless of what people complain about the better player is almost always going to win in this game one way or another.

Look at every single argument about character matchups on these boards. People always weigh out advantages their characters have and claim they have some kind of a percentage for a matchup against another character. Let me break this to you: EVERY CHARACTER HAS SOME KIND OF ADVANTAGE OVER ANOTHER CHARACTER. Picking some random number and saying "this is the matchup because I've tested extensively and because of this and this and this" is something that should be left for card game playing noobs. The REAL way to win in this game is to find the advantages you DO have and use them, which is why characters like Yoshi have come out of the blue and all of a sudden become a contender rather than an expected bye in tournaments.

@Infinity:

Well I'm a person who is Pivot Grab Happy (for a lack of a better term), while Bwett is generally plain more aggressive, which I don't approve of much, at least in this matchup (Judging of a video against you two).

My defencive strategy has been working well for me so far against the MetaKnights around here. Bwett does some strange things with him (Trys to fits Neutral B's into his game, He even SHIELD GRABS!) But he's still great with him. And I saw that he got that Release > Fair thing to work on you once

Bwett stopped using pivot grabs as much because I figured out how to move around them and punish him for it. He's more aggressive because that has been working on the other players in our area with surprising efficiency. If you watch the video again, you'll notice he and I have similar play styles: we're both kind of passive-aggressive. We wait for an opening and then attempt to punish it with a flurry of aggressive moves. It's not that he's overly aggressive, he just tends to try and over-punish and it turns around on him a lot.




In regards to Metaknight as a character: he has a giant, glaring weakness that only a few people have found so far and I'm sure even fewer have mentioned. I'm not going to mention said weakness but when this particular setup happens it costs me a lot of my games, which is why I try and avoid it like the plague although once it does happen it's completely unavoidable regardless of who the other character is.

In regards to the OP: I don't believe a single word you're saying, you've left many things out of your arguments in order to make Metaknight sound more and more overpowered. I strongly discourage anyone from listening to what this gentleman has to say until he can back up his arguments properly with facts rather than speculation.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Eh?

Don't quote old info that I said plz.

MK vs Marth is 60/40 MK's favor.

Same with Lucario for that matter. MK's rushdown is more then enough for Lucario's defense.

 

[Fizzle]

Same with Lucario for that matter. MK's rushdown is more then enough for Lucario's defense.

After what M2K said about the matchup a while ago, I'm tempted to say it's even now. MK can gimp Lucario like nobody's business, but if Lucario is spacing well MK is going to have a difficult time approaching. Fsmash and aura sphere are just too good in this matchup. If Lucario is spacing with fsmash, it can go practically unpunished. Of course, MK still has his usual tricks in this matchup, but Lucario can dish it out just as well. Definitely 50-50.

This match here says it all. Watch the fsmashes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJAd_XEqff0

 

[Emblem Lord]

MK can get past Lucario's F-smash spam just as easily as Marth can and Marth has 60/40 advantage on Lucario.

M2K goes by his own personal thoughts. There really isn't any logic in what he thinks it's just his opinion. For the record Azen did say he thinks that MK has advantage on Lucario.

 

[darkspatan117]

Mk is a hard char to shut down he almost have no bad matchup

 

[Fizzle]

MK can get past Lucario's F-smash spam just as easily as Marth can and Marth has 60/40 advantage on Lucario.

Not true. Because of its low ending lag, there are very few characters in the game that can shield and punish Lucario's fsmash. The way most characters get around it is by simply jumping over it and using an aerial. Marth has a higher SH than MK and can simply jump over fsmash and punish Lucario. Marth also has one move with longer range than fsmash - shieldbreaker. MK has none. When MK attempts to SH over fsmash, he just gets ***** by the move's vertical hitbox. You can see Plank attempt to dashgrab Lucario several times after shielding fsmash, but (when well spaced) Lucario has plenty of time to sidestep or shield any attempt at punishing it.

And fsmash isn't the only thing Lucario's got here. All of Lucario's aerials will give MK a hard time landing hits. Bair, I believe, beats most if not all of MK's aerials, and MK's tornado is easily outprioritized. MK still has his usual pros in the matchup, but his greatest problem will be approaching Lucario. And if Lucario isn't getting gimped to death in the match, then he can easily live to high % and reap the benefits of aura boost.

 

[Emblem Lord]

MK can gimp Lucario pretty easily though and MK doesn't need to try to dash grab after an F-smash from Lucario. He just needs to get close and apply pressure.

I don't feel like debating this though so I will leave it alone.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ignore this.

 

[Fizzle]

MK can gimp Lucario pretty easily though and MK doesn't need to try to dash grab after an F-smash from Lucario. He just needs to get close and apply pressure.

I don't feel like debating this though so I will leave it alone.

MK (and most characters) do not have enough time to drop shield, walk forward and do whatever after an fsmash. Lucario's ending lag is already over by the time that happens.

Seriously, the move is too good. Just ask Azen about that one.

I never said MK couldn't gimp Lucario. The MK vs Lucario matchup is sort of like MK vs Snake. If MK is landing low % gimps, then the match gets a nod in his favor. On the stage, however, both characters will (slightly) outperform MK.

Aw, EL doesn't want to debate? That's a first.

 

[Emblem Lord]

If you dash into shield when someone attacks you will slide forward since the momentum of your run is still carrying you. Then once MK is in he can just up b out of shield or drop his shield and punish.

And yeah I don't feel like debating since I don't main MK and MK's match-ups don't mean jack **** to me and ultimately he is still the best character in the game so this is meaningless.

 

[Fizzle]

If you dash into shield when someone attacks you will slide forward since the momentum of your run is still carrying you. Then once MK is in he can just up b out of shield or drop his shield and punish.

And yeah I don't feel like debating since I don't main MK and MK's match-ups don't mean jack **** to me and ultimately he is still the best character in the game so this is meaningless.

Um, que? Unless MK perfect shields the fsmash (which is uncommon, and shouldn't be relied on during matchup discussion), he'll slide back 1-1 1/2 body widths - which is way too far to do anything OOS.

MK is, indeed, the best character in the game, but I play Lucario. The matchup is not 60-40 as I used to think. Many will agree it's 50-50, and you've yet to prove otherwise.

If you don't want to debate, then why are you still debating? Just give it up if the matchup is so unimportant to you.

 

[DanGR]

Olimar doesn't have that large of a disadvantage. It's 65-35 MK at WORSE. Olimar has the ground range and speed to give him some trouble on the ground. MK is weak from below to Olimar and he kills at around 80%ish to upsmash. Upb will hit you through your sideb and tornado, and it will stop all glide attacks as well.

What MK has on Olimar is what he has on everyone- gimpage, laglessness, and speed. It's no different.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ok, something good just happened so now I'm in a good mood.

Fizzle.

Prepare yourself.

I said nothing of merely shielding Lucario's f-smash and attempting to punish. I said if a character dashes forward and shields an attack, the momentum from their dash will carry them forward. This is great way to get past a characters wall/zoning. When MK does this he can safely approach Lucario's f-smash.

Also AS and f-smash are only two moves. It's not enough for Lucario to go even with MK. He has enough speed to render AS less effective then it would be in other matches and if Lucario relies solely on F-smash MK can wait outside of it's range then close in. Could he punish Lucario after the smash?

No.

But he can close in and begin zoning to apply pressure and force Lucario to react. Plus MK can easily outpoke Lucario and gimp him. The only time the fight is more or less at neutral is when they are on on the ground. But MK can get low percent kills easily which puts it in his favor and can put Lucario in disadvantageous situations.

Lucario does not out perform MK on the stage. Not by a long shot. All he has is a defensive game that MK has the tools to circumvent.

Lucario does better then most, but I stand firmly on MK having slight advantage.

 

[Fizzle]

Prepare yourself.

Glad to hear it, Ike. lolz

Wait, I'm unsure what you're trying to say about the shield thing. I tested it. If MK shields an fsmash while running he'll get knocked back significantly. What's the point? I suppose it's a good way to close distance when Luc is using BAS, but Lucario can just walk away and fsmash/sh turnaround sphere/whatever to keep going. Aura sphere forces MK's approach and fsmash stops it cold.

AS is still pretty **** effective in this match. People seem to forget how quickly this move can kill - i.e harassing your opponent isn't its only purpose. Like I said, Lucario will be living pretty long in this match, so AS will be doing monster damage and knockback by then, as will the rest of Lucario's moves. You make it seem like Lucario is a lame duck when MK is close. Lucario still has his great jab mixups, grabs, and quick tilts to keep MK at a distance. If Lucario is being too predictable with AS and fsmash, then he can always approach. SH fair-dair is a great approach that shieldpokes occasionally, especially since MK is so short.

Don't forget that MK also has Luc's air game to contend with. Marth's aerials may be able to beat Lucario's, but I wouldn't say that's the case with MK. Bair is Lucario's mini fsmash in the air. If Lucario is spacing well, there's no way MK's attacks will get through it. Don't forget dair either. ***** tornadoes and renders uair useless. Of course, Shuttle Loop will go through it (as it does with just about anything), but it gets predictable and risky when used onstage.

Gimps are MK's biggest advantage in this matchup, but that's not to say Lucario can't keep him off the stage. Lucario can't gimp him, but he has some great edgeguard options. Watch Azen. Fsmash is unpunishable on the ledge and it lingers, making it easy to hit anyone climbing onstage. Bair can stop recoveries from up high, and fully charged AS will kill low when landed offstage.

MK can kill just about any character at low %, but do you see it happening multiple times a round? Hardly. Like the Snake matchup, MK needs gimps to win against Lucario, but they're not something to rely on every match. Gimping still happens, but I see less and less people getting gimped in tournaments now. Gimping Olimars and ZSSes isn't so easy when you're facing skilled opponents.

Spacing is everything for Lucario in this match. If Luc is using AS, fsmash, and bair correctly, the MK player will be chasing to land hits onstage. Lucario is fairly heavy, so don't expect MK's dsmash to be landing kills easily. MK has speed in this match, but Lucario will be killing earlier and more reliably. MK has the tools to murder Lucario offstage, but smart Lucarios will keep MK at bay and control the match. I stand by 50-50.

 

[TKD]

If MK dashes and shields against Lucario, and Lucario happened to do an fsmash, MK gets inside the fsmash range. Even though it doesn't have much post-move lag, it's more than enough for MK to land an aerial out of the shield. A Mach Tornado from the air can go over the fsmash too.

Aura spheres can get shielded, it's not that complicated. As for getting edgeguarded by the sphere, one gets used to avoiding it without major trouble.

Olimar does have...good weapons on MK, but that matchup is based on luck too. A minor mistake on Olimar's part and he may die, and that can happen early. While minor mistakes on MK's part don't have such harsh consequences.

In my opinion, MK has a 60/40 advantage on Snake, because well, Snake is easy. Compare him do DK, Yoshi and Diddy Kong. He's just too gimpable. I don't think anyone disagrees. But I've never seen anyone's opinion on MK as a light Snake counter.

I have some problems with the list right now. I'll edit the first post and wait to read opinions.

EDIT: Mario has some priority trouble but fresh fsmash into the closest deathwall can KO from 100%. Besides, if he actually was a 20/80, a whole lot of other characters should be too. I don't think so...

 

[Emblem Lord]

Whether or not you get shield push back from a dash in to shield depends on when the shield gets hit. If you shield and almost immediately are attacked then you still retain a bit of forward momentum and you would be close enough to punish.

At close range Lucario is not only outranged but MK attacks faster. Lucario has nothing to fight MK with at close range. He he has to camp him.

You keep mentioning Lucario's Bair, but it's really not that good. Range is decent, but it's not all that fast and it's one of Lucario's laggier aerials.

How is Lucario going to be killing more reliably? With F-smash? If he is using that to wall MK then it will usually be weakened and MK can still get early gimps before Lucario is damaged enough to get a significant boost.

Lucario does have an air game to wall MK with, but MK has his dash attack that he can use to dart in and he has his up b that he can use out of shield.

Overall Lucario has to be more flawless then MK since he has to be very careful and try to keep MK out.

I do not disagree with what you are saying. I just think you over hype the effectiveness of the tactics mentioned.

 

[Brinzy]

TKD, explain Zelda.

 

[Mew2King]

I think lucario has the advantage vs mk cuz of his dair, i don't think it's even anymore at all. lucarios fair outranges mks fair, you can legitly combo mk with fairs, its hard to kill lucario if hes careful and then he'll kill you, lucarios dair ***** unless mk is waiting for it

 

[Timbers]

Metaknight's fair outranges and outspeeds Lucario's fair >_>

 

[Browny]

will lucarios dair stop shuttle-loop no matter where it connects? i figure it will always stop the purely horizontal knockback zone of the attack but dont know about the near vertical part.

 

[Master Raven]

Lucario's Dair completely knocks out shuttle loop in its entirety.

 

[Timbers]

will lucarios dair stop shuttle-loop no matter where it connects? i figure it will always stop the purely horizontal knockback zone of the attack but dont know about the near vertical part.

Err well, as long as the dair actually hits metaknight, and not the sword or something.

I find myself trading hits with the shuttleloop a lot if I try dairing it, which is less than appealing given the knockback and damage from the first dair hit opposed to shuttleloop.

Also heard there's invincibility frames in shuttleloop but it might be a bogus claim.

 

[Master Raven]

I don't think shuttle loop has any super armor, in fact I find that the initial frames of the attack are the most vulnerable.

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

Lol @ anyone thinking MK has a losing match up. Best you'll ever do at this time is get an even one.

 

[CaliburChamp]

People that play MK often, are the ones that realize MK's weaknesses. I have a harder time dealing with Snakes than MK's. I secondary MK, and I know all the tricks with him, so when I fight an opponent who uses MK, I'll know when to run away, and when to attack, knowing the timing of MK's attacks will help, especially if you play as him you'll get a much better idea. Once people get good enough at this game they're realize MK is beatable.

 

[Steeler]

how were these matchups decided? the op's personal opinion or what? i don't see any discussion on it outside of this thread.