Metaknight Officially Banned In Italy.

[MBlaze]

Hell?!? This isn't the NS2 marioblaze i know

I am, I'm the only Marioblaze around. Who are you?

 

[Cirno]

If we're still claiming to be playing the Smash Bros. series competitively, a massive amount of comment in this thread do not make sense.There are things floating around like "not fair" , "no below even match-ups" and "cheap" which are often phrases we consider scrubbish.I keep seeing references to Street Fighter and Sirlin's playing to win article.If we agree on things like these then the question of MK's ban should have been shot down at first mention. As someone who loves to study and play with human responses I definitely appreciate that we'll be getting updates to how things go over in Italy, no matter how much I disagree with their decision, but I have to say, for all the gamers in Italy, I'm sorry--sucks to be you.


Based on our community created Tier lists, we have agreed that as far as 64 is concerned Pikachu is the best. Of course, if a Link player is better than a Pikachu player he will win, but he is disadvantaged, and in high levels/equal levels of skill he and several others are considered non-viable in tournament play.

On to Melee, Fox was the tier-decided best as many of us know. Some people say he was disadvantaged when it came to Marth and Peach-- the main attribute to this speculation was his weakness as a space animal, being that his falling speed set him up for chain grabs.

Despite that, according to to CunningKitsune's Complete Guide to Fox McCloud, Fox has no disadvantaged matchups. Only technical mistakes that can be punished by higher tier characters. Yes, I did search and find a Mewtwo that beat a Fox, but that does not change the fact that he and everyone else in the low-bottom tier were considered not viable for tournament play.

Oh, and as for flocking towards a character, there are more Foxes than Roys by far. Which is logical in a competitive scene. People are going to choose the character that gives them the best chances to win, this would be Fox. "Fox is used as a secondary if not main by the top three smashers in the East Coast of the US: KoreanDJ, PC Chris, and Mew2King. "

-Smash Wiki​

And finally we have our somewhat backwards progression to the latest game-- Brawl, whose top tier is currently Meta Knight. The similarities between the effect the top tiers in all three games have by now should be undeniable, but lets continue for comprehensive sake. Weakness wise(as with Fox) he is light weight, thus he has an obvious disadvantage against Snake who's utilt's distance and power will always destroy a Meta knight who makes the mistake of getting hit by it. Has incredibly low aerial movement speed aside from his glide, which adds another weakness for several other characters to take advantage of if the MK player lets them do so. All Link players should have seen the Deva v.s DSF fights by now and seen that Link beat both MK and Snake. But, as with Pikachu in 64, as with Fox in melee, as with Akuma in alpha 3, Cervantes in SC III, Eddie in GG XX, Sion in MB, and F1 in mugen--as far as the community is concerned half the cast stands no chance against the top tier character.


The beautiful thing about tier lists however are that they are never permanent, or fate deciding, they are mere representations of the amount of potential we have viewed certain characters to have. The IC's have proved this time and time again.

So go ahead, don't pick up Meta Knight, some people's style simply don't work well with certain aspects of a character that are required to play well with them. Please, main Captain Falcon and dominate tourney after tourney with your incredible skill and sheer will to achieve victory.


Win or lose you have the right to say it was an unfair battle, it was uphill, this that and the third--

BUT​

Know now that in a competitive scene such as the one we have created, no one cares. If you are playing to win you knew full well from before you even started training your main to be tourney ready that you were at a disadvantage. You knew from September 01, 2008 that your best chances lied with also picking MK or someone in the same tier. You should know from before you even want to play any competitive anything anywhere that the decisions made with the tools brought into a competition will ultimately decide the results.

Yes MK is currently the best character in the game. Yes a good player can protect the few weaknesses he has. Yes, a good player will make most people believe that half the cast is not considerable for tournament play. Yes you will have to be a considerable amount of higher skill to beat a player who can use MK(and the rest of the top tiers) well.

If you can't except that you are a scrub by definition.Don't cry if you get shot bringing a knife into a gun fight.

NO JOHNS​

 

[Ijuka]

There are even match-ups. But everyone knows MK-matchup better than MK knows his match-ups if they play around the same amount of Brawl, since the other player will face more MKs than the MK-mainer will face, say, Donkey Kongs. And thus, although the match-ups are 50-50, the DK players should know the MU better, since they play against so many MKs. And because of that, they'll beat the MKs because they know the match-up well. Simple.

 

[salaboB]

Know now that in a competitive scene such as the one we have created, no one cares. If you are playing to win you knew full well from before you even started training your main to be tourney ready that you were at a disadvantage. You knew from September 01, 2008 that your best chances lied with also picking MK or someone in the same tier. You should know from before you even want to play any competitive anything anywhere that the decisions made with the tools brought into a competition will ultimately decide the results.

Yes MK is currently the best character in the game. Yes a good player can protect the few weaknesses he has. Yes, a good player will make most people believe that half the cast is not considerable for tournament play. Yes you will have to be a considerable amount of higher skill to beat a player who can use MK(and the rest of the top tiers) well.

If you can't except that you are a scrub by definition.Don't cry if you get shot bringing a knife into a gun fight.

NO JOHNS​

Deciding the ruleset has nothing to do with Sirlin's much-overquoted article, and you're not a scrub if you support banning MK. If you go to a tournament where he is allowed to be played and lose to him and then whine about it, that makes you a scrub. Your statement is also wrong about the tier you have to choose from, inasmuch as nobody is on the same tier as MK so your available characters to pick for that are exactly one.

Tell me, do you honestly believe that banning Akuma made everyone involved a scrub? Because it's something related to ban MK, he's bad for competition and provides significantly reduced options if you're "playing to win" because you must choose him or suffer the consequences. A tournament scene that becomes just one character primarily thrown at another is a scene that's not going to have a good lifespan, and so in the best interests of the smash community if Meta Knight is going to become that he is in fact better off banned.

Play to win all you want, but recognize that setting up the rules (That include limitations on who is a valid choice of characters to play) is not part of your actual playing.

Otherwise we may as well enable all the stages, because why not? You're not good enough to overcome the random significant advantages certain stages provide some characters? Banning stages for providing too much of an advantage is not playing to win!

NO JOHNS​

 

[DMG]

There are even match-ups. But everyone knows MK-matchup better than MK knows his match-ups if they play around the same amount of Brawl, since the other player will face more MKs than the MK-mainer will face, say, Donkey Kongs. And thus, although the match-ups are 50-50, the DK players should know the MU better, since they play against so many MKs. And because of that, they'll beat the MKs because they know the match-up well. Simple.

What if the MK player plays against a good DK everyday? Besides, you shouldn't include a lack of matchup experience for either side as a factor in deciding real matchup numbers.

 

[XIF]

If we're still claiming to be playing the Smash Bros. series competitively, a massive amount of comment in this thread do not make sense.There are things floating around like "not fair" , "no below even match-ups" and "cheap" which are often phrases we consider scrubbish.I keep seeing references to Street Fighter and Sirlin's playing to win article.If we agree on things like these then the question of MK's ban should have been shot down at first mention. As someone who loves to study and play with human responses I definitely appreciate that we'll be getting updates to how things go over in Italy, no matter how much I disagree with their decision, but I have to say, for all the gamers in Italy, I'm sorry--sucks to be you.

But characters are banned for being unfair, so how the heck are we supposed to argue that a character is ban worthy without stating the obvious that he's unfair? Look, people think they have THE absolute argument winner by citing sirlin. Sirlin doesnt state that one should never ban a character. He gives very specific reasons why one would need to ban a character or tactic. Things on paper like damage output, ability to die, deal damage, priority, abilities, etc all factor in to this. But the most important idea is that a character or tactic needs to be banned when if the character is kept the top metagame is reduced to that character versus that character, or that tactic vs that tactic. This is exactly what is happening, as more and more people are simply dropping other characters in favor of metaknight, and of the top top players the ones who play metaknight are winning. Ankoku has solid evidence of how much metaknight is placing better and being used more. Far and away moreso than snake, the second most dominant. Sirlin's playing to win and game balance articles in this case support the idea to ban metaknight.

Based on our community created Tier lists, we have agreed that as far as 64 is concerned Pikachu is the best. Of course, if a Link player is better than a Pikachu player he will win, but he is disadvantaged, and in high levels/equal levels of skill he and several others are considered non-viable in tournament play.

SSB64 is a terrible example because there arent nearly enough large tournaments and the entire scene is dominated by Isai rather than characters. But for the record, most SSB64 players assert that the entire roster is basically playable except for samus, but none of it matters in the face of Isai. The game itself is just fundamentally imbalanced, with certain strategies just being too good.

On to Melee, Fox was the tier-decided best as many of us know. Some people say he was disadvantaged when it came to Marth and Peach-- the main attribute to this speculation was his weakness as a space animal, being that his falling speed set him up for chain grabs.

Despite that, according to to CunningKitsune's Complete Guide to Fox McCloud, Fox has no disadvantaged matchups. Only technical mistakes that can be punished by higher tier characters. Yes, I did search and find a Mewtwo that beat a Fox, but that does not change the fact that he and everyone else in the low-bottom tier were considered not viable for tournament play.

Oh, and as for flocking towards a character, there are more Foxes than Roys by far. Which is logical in a competitive scene. People are going to choose the character that gives them the best chances to win, this would be Fox. "Fox is used as a secondary if not main by the top three smashers in the East Coast of the US: KoreanDJ, PC Chris, and Mew2King. "

-Smash Wiki​

With fox though he did have one glaring weakness and that was when you make a mistake with Fox you are absolutely boned, almost every character has 80%+ combos on the guy. At the very least you can heavily punish fox. In brawl, because of metaknight in particular and the game mechanics he is better ability wise than melee fox but FAR AND AWAY better than fox overall because you cannot punish him effectively at all. And I dunno where you got the idea that Peach has an advantage over Fox, it is easily her worst matchup. Between that and your SSB64 comment, you seem fairly ignorant about the smash scene.

And finally we have our somewhat backwards progression to the latest game-- Brawl, whose top tier is currently Meta Knight. The similarities between the effect the top tiers in all three games have by now should be undeniable, but lets continue for comprehensive sake. Weakness wise(as with Fox) he is light weight, thus he has an obvious disadvantage against Snake who's utilt's distance and power will always destroy a Meta knight who makes the mistake of getting hit by it. Has incredibly low aerial movement speed aside from his glide, which adds another weakness for several other characters to take advantage of if the MK player lets them do so. All Link players should have seen the Deva v.s DSF fights by now and seen that Link beat both MK and Snake. But, as with Pikachu in 64, as with Fox in melee, as with Akuma in alpha 3, Cervantes in SC III, Eddie in GG XX, Sion in MB, and F1 in mugen--as far as the community is concerned half the cast stands no chance against the top tier character.

half the cast would be fine. If metaknight made only half the cast an uphill battle it'd be fine. The fact is that metaknight removes all but 3 or 4 characters from the brawl equation period.


The beautiful thing about tier lists however are that they are never permanent, or fate deciding, they are mere representations of the amount of potential we have viewed certain characters to have. The IC's have proved this time and time again.

So go ahead, don't pick up Meta Knight, some people's style simply don't work well with certain aspects of a character that are required to play well with them. Please, main Captain Falcon and dominate tourney after tourney with your incredible skill and sheer will to achieve victory.


Win or lose you have the right to say it was an unfair battle, it was uphill, this that and the third--

BUT​

Know now that in a competitive scene such as the one we have created, no one cares. If you are playing to win you knew full well from before you even started training your main to be tourney ready that you were at a disadvantage. You knew from September 01, 2008 that your best chances lied with also picking MK or someone in the same tier. You should know from before you even want to play any competitive anything anywhere that the decisions made with the tools brought into a competition will ultimately decide the results.

Yes MK is currently the best character in the game. Yes a good player can protect the few weaknesses he has. Yes, a good player will make most people believe that half the cast is not considerable for tournament play. Yes you will have to be a considerable amount of higher skill to beat a player who can use MK(and the rest of the top tiers) well.

If you can't except that you are a scrub by definition.Don't cry if you get shot bringing a knife into a gun fight.

NO JOHNS​

OBVIOUSLY if the rules allow it you should expect others to use everything in their power to win, but that isnt the argument. Everyone plays to win, but playing to win in a game with metaknight being as dominant as he is is simply just not a good fighting game. The point is to make it fair, because MK takes it well beyond the point of broken. You shouldnt HAVE to be way better than your opponent in order to win just because they picked a naturally good character.

10 characters.

 

[XIF]

There are even match-ups. But everyone knows MK-matchup better than MK knows his match-ups if they play around the same amount of Brawl, since the other player will face more MKs than the MK-mainer will face, say, Donkey Kongs. And thus, although the match-ups are 50-50, the DK players should know the MU better, since they play against so many MKs. And because of that, they'll beat the MKs because they know the match-up well. Simple.

I think this logic made me throw up a little in my mouth.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

There are even match-ups. But everyone knows MK-matchup better than MK knows his match-ups if they play around the same amount of Brawl, since the other player will face more MKs than the MK-mainer will face, say, Donkey Kongs. And thus, although the match-ups are 50-50, the DK players should know the MU better, since they play against so many MKs. And because of that, they'll beat the MKs because they know the match-up well. Simple.

omfg...fail logic fails. MK players are aware of DKs threat...

 

[-Jumpman-]

I have no idea why people think MK should be banned. Most people who second MK don't even play him good enough to place that high. People like DSF or M2K are exceptions. Most MKs that place high are mains. So why do people have have a problem with people picking MK when their opponent just lost? They probably won't be as good as their main.

 

[salaboB]

I have no idea why people think MK should be banned. Most people who second MK don't even play him good enough to place that high. People like DSF or M2K are exceptions. Most MKs that place high are mains. So why do people have have a problem with people picking MK when their opponent just lost? They probably won't be as good as their main.

All you need to do to get an idea of why is actually read the thread.

Or even the last page or two.

 

[Chis]

I'm not going to lie, but I think we're going nowhere with this. I think everyone's over reacting a little. Also the chances are that they may unban him, It's only been 7 months right?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

If you can't except that you are a scrub by definition.Don't cry if you get shot bringing a knife into a gun fight.

NO JOHNS​

As long as people know what a scrub is.

That Sirlin article misuses the definition of what a scrub is. A scrub is a player who thinks they are hot stuff but sucks, intellectually or in playing skill. Not someone who doesn't play to win.

Otherwise that places everyone who is new or casual into the scrub category.

Trying to advance Captain Falcon's game and then testing it in a tournament, doesn't mean the person is a scrub. If they go about shouting, Captain Falcon is god tier and claim to be the best player in the world, then they are a scrub.

 

[Master Raven]

I don't think Sirlin meant to be that strict with the definition to the point where advancing Falcon's metagame was scrubbish. I'm sure he meant someone who does not play to win the sense that they hold back because they don't want to use the "cheap" stuff such as chaingrabs/spam/etc.

 

[C.Olimar788]

I must say I barely understand that logic. No one went around banning Fox or Falco in Melee, why would Meta Knight (or Snake, who's also often complained about) be banned?

This same logic fits all the people who complain about said characters. :/

 

[salaboB]

I must say I barely understand that logic. No one went around banning Fox or Falco in Melee, why would Meta Knight (or Snake, who's also often complained about) be banned?

Because they had bad matchups and could be competed against by the other top tier characters.

This isn't the case with MK (And to a lesser extent Snake).

/third time's the charm?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

^ Read the posts above.

Melee Fox still had to compete with Falco, Sheik, Marth and Peach.

MK stands alone at the top, there is a difference

 

[brinboy789]

^ Read the posts above.

Melee Fox still had to compete with Falco, Sheik, Marth and Peach.

MK stands alone at the top, there is a difference

im sorry, i think you forgot the entire top tier. and yes they are close to him.

 

[brinboy789]

I'm not going to lie, but I think we're going nowhere with this. I think everyone's over reacting a little. Also the chances are that they may unban him, It's only been 7 months right?

nope 2 months for italian community. and not even a tourney >.<

 

[Ulevo]

Ankokus results don't factor in all the Meta Knights that lose tournaments, only the ones that win. If you have an abnormal amount of players using the same character that is substantially higher than another characters overall use, you are going to have more wins for that character simply because it is a wider scale to drive results from.

If 5000 players use Meta Knight, but only 500 manage to win Tournaments with them, that means 10% of all Meta Knight users are winning or placing high. If you compare that to say the 2000 Marth mains when 400 of them win, which is 20% of the players, you see that the difference in tournament results isn't so drastic as people would like to believe.

This isn't solid numbers, and is mere speculation based on how popular Meta Knight is compared to other characters, but it still stands to reason that you can't use his Tournament results alone to justify the need to ban him.

On another note, most people that ***** and complain about Meta Knight are those who do not compete on high level play. They are beginning or novice players struggling to adapt to the current environment that is Meta Knight filled. Rather than finding solutions to win, they john, quite, or use Meta Knight as well.

Whenever I have watched high level play matches, I never see matches go horridly wrong between two players of near equal skill because of this massive advantage people claim Meta Knight to have when another character is used.

The fact is that Meta Knight is not broken as of yet, he will likely never be broken, and he is here to stay, so people need to start making the decision on whether or not they wish to continue playing. It's that simple people.

 

[ETWIST51294]

I must say I barely understand that logic. No one went around banning Fox or Falco in Melee, why would Meta Knight (or Snake, who's also often complained about) be banned?

This same logic fits all the people who complain about said characters. :/

Well, MK can't be chain grabbed, you can't gimp his recovery, you can't really outrange him, and MK is probably the best edgeguarder in the game. And all that stuff you can't do to MK you can do to Fox. And they better not ban Snake!

 

[Master Raven]

Actually he can be CGed by Falco.

 

[salaboB]

Whenever I have watched high level play matches, I never see matches go horridly wrong between two players of near equal skill because of this massive advantage people claim Meta Knight to have when another character is used.

Many of the matchups are considered 6:4 in MK's favor. It's not enough that you'd see it going horribly wrong, but it's enough that the opponent of MK will have to be playing better than the MK to pull off reliable wins. That's also enough to discourage people from playing that character against MK.

And saying he's better isn't entirely based on the tourney results, those are just showing that people are recognizing his effectiveness and swarming to play him. Saying he's better is largely based on the matchups that people are constantly working on for him (And get a great deal of evidence for, given how many people play as him.)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

im sorry, i think you forgot the entire top tier. and yes they are close to him.

Close? Take a look at the tournament results. The 2nd best characters is 500 points behind him...that's not what I call close (most char are mx 50 points seperated...)

 

[Talvi]

I never liked Italians, or Italy.

Fortunately, the smash community here at Spain isn't full of morons, and MK won't be banned unless something big happens. Also, did they really banned him, or it was just a decision of a bunch of scrubs?

 

[salaboB]

Fortunately, the smash community here at Spain isn't full of morons, and MK won't be banned unless something big happens. Also, did they really banned him, or it was just a decision of a bunch of scrubs?

According to Sirlin (Which yes he misused the term but this is how he used it) complaining about the rules makes you the scrub.

 

[TheGODehT]

Fortunately, the smash community here at Spain isn't full of morons, and MK won't be banned unless something big happens. Also, did they really banned him, or it was just a decision of a bunch of scrubs?

Hopefully USA doesn't follow suit either..... that would be terrible.

I honestly believe a good game and watch or diddy player could beat a good metaknight player at the pro level.

 

[Tyser]

Italy sucks. Man up and just play this god awful piece of crap game.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Italy sucks. Man up and just play this god awful piece of crap game.

Couldn't have said it better myself!

 

[Master Raven]

I never liked Italians, or Italy.

Fortunately, the smash community here at Spain isn't full of morons, and MK won't be banned unless something big happens. Also, did they really banned him, or it was just a decision of a bunch of scrubs?

I'm not sure, they haven't even started tournies yet LOL

Hopefully USA doesn't follow suit either..... that would be terrible.

I honestly believe a good game and watch or diddy player could beat a good metaknight player at the pro level.

I think MK has the advantage vs GW, but not by much (55:45 if you ask me). Diddy is definitely an even matchup though.

 

[TheGODehT]

I think MK has the advantage vs GW, but not by much (55:45 if you ask me). Diddy is definitely an even matchup though.

Yea... I'm probably just not good enough to deal with GW yet. I still can't tech out of his d-throw combos xD

Originally I thought they (not they as Italy, but they as in the higher ups in the smash community) were going to ban dedede from tournaments because of his chaingrab.... I guess there aren't many people who attempt to abuse it?

Also, I don't think the first post mentioned MK's infinite cape.... I can see the reason for banning that, but banning the whole character seems pretty ridiculous.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Diddy is 60:40 for MK - just because NL beats M2K once, doesn't mean he has the advantage

 

[Master Raven]

Diddy is 60:40 for MK - just because NL beats M2K once, doesn't mean he has the advantage

LOL I'm not basing it on NL's victory against M2K, I'm basing it on personal experience vs good Diddies.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Ok then...I still think you're wrong here...

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I don't think Sirlin meant to be that strict with the definition to the point where advancing Falcon's metagame was scrubbish. I'm sure he meant someone who does not play to win the sense that they hold back because they don't want to use the "cheap" stuff such as chaingrabs/spam/etc.

I'm guessing you mean the people that yell, "Wavedashing is cheap, L-canceling is unfair,etc." and try to hold to an honor code of sorts.

The problems with the article are still apparent.

He isn't even making a difference between competitive players, casual players, and the middle, even applying the scrub term to the group he obviously isn't associated with.

He's appearing as an elitist prick who wants everyone in the world to play by his "rules" or be labeled a scrub.

I see a message of the "lol cheap" but for the most part, he using poor word choice and derogatory terms unjustly.

 

[Semmick]

I find this hilarious!! Too bad you guys cant use MK though, they banned him for those reasons?

 

[Chaco]

I love it, kudos to you Italy for being the first, although your reasons are a little off.

 

[rebd121]

I'd hate to see Meta banned in America... It'd prevent me from having a chance to figure out how to counter the little ball of godly essense.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

^ Use Jiggs as a replacement?

 

[DanGR]

Actually he can be CGed by Falco.

Not after maybe two grabs though. You get out by using upair.

Edit:

On another note, most people that ***** and complain about Meta Knight are those who do not compete on high level play. They are beginning or novice players struggling to adapt to the current environment that is Meta Knight filled. Rather than finding solutions to win, they john, quite, or use Meta Knight as well.

When you use MK because you want to beat MK, that doesn't mean you're a novice by any definition. If you're playing to win, it means you're smart.

 

[brinboy789]

Yea... I'm probably just not good enough to deal with GW yet. I still can't tech out of his d-throw combos xD

Originally I thought they (not they as Italy, but they as in the higher ups in the smash community) were going to ban dedede from tournaments because of his chaingrab.... I guess there aren't many people who attempt to abuse it?

Also, I don't think the first post mentioned MK's infinite cape.... I can see the reason for banning that, but banning the whole character seems pretty ridiculous.

infinite cape has been banned ever since its discovery, because of the hidden potential thati t has for stalling :O. and i dont think a single MK player complained about it being banned lol because it should be banned. besides. i can barely hold one for more then 5 seconds