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Metaknight Johns just got taken to a whole new level

EternalCrusade

Smash Journeyman
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@ EC: Why I think banning MK would be kinda outrageous, what about the actual technique? What are your thoughts on that?
Well, you're right, if anything, the technique will be banned, not MK. Of course, this move seems like it can be very easily abused for stalling purposes (keep in mind my Wii is still broken and I cant play Brawl right now) but I can see this argument going either way at this point. All I know is it seems like there are a lot of judgment calls coming from a tech like this. It'll be near impossible (that means impossible, it won't happen) to monitor every MK at a tournament and make sure they don't exceed any kind of allowed time limit for staying invincible, so if this tech is banned, then there is also the issue of 'Did he just use the dimensional cape tech?' (for a lack of official name) and if he did, who's to say it was for stalling or spacing or something else?

It's a tough call, but I hope they don't ban the technique immediately without allowing it at tournaments first, let us experiment and let the results speak for themselves.
 

Metal_Dave

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Well. I kind of knew there was something to his down B since I use it a lot in my matches for a mind game, or to recover. Since I did notice a couple times where I would be gone longer than the usual time stuck in the down B. I guess maybe I should try it out now, I should be able to get it down pretty quick. -.-
 

Frames

DI
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Look, my policy is to not ban something until it's proven broken.

I have to stick with my convictions.

So that's that. If you lose because of it, well that's your fault. No johns, you lose, you lose.

It will be allowed, just as wobbling is, until it is considered stalling. What is considered stalling?

If you get to a point where the match cannot progress naturally because one opponent is manipulating the situation using a specific move, that is stalling (so basically 20/30 seconds or so).

Honestly if someone is using it to stall, it is YOUR right as a player to speak up and say "Hey, that guy is stalling, etc. etc." Otherwise, it's your own **** fault.
 

Metal_Dave

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So after a nice 15 min run of messing around with this AT...I have to say it's pretty easy to start it, but to hold it for a long time is quite difficult. If you pay attention to the camera how it focuses on the stage you can get an idea of where the MK will appear though and you may be able to punish it(for singles at least).

As for the whole banning case I think it may be too early to call a ban, but it is possible. Me personally I prefer to see how it would effect tournaments first before placing any moves, or restrictions.
 

Frames

DI
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It's a tough call, but I hope they don't ban the technique immediately without allowing it at tournaments first, let us experiment and let the results speak for themselves.
As for the whole banning case I think it may be too early to call a ban, but it is possible. Me personally I prefer to see how it would effect tournaments first before placing any moves, or restrictions.
They have the right idea, this is exactly how we should be approaching this situation.
 

Equi

Smash Ace
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Feb 5, 2006
Messages
767
lol yeah I suppose I'm overeacting. I tried it out and I admit it's punishable and probably not as bad as I think. I misntrepreted the technique.

We'll just wait and see.
 

dguy6789

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Read the original thread on the technique more carefully. It has already been proven broken and only someone who doesn't understand competitive smash would allow it.
 

Equi

Smash Ace
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Messages
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Read the original thread on the technique more carefully. It has already been proven broken and only someone who doesn't understand competitive smash would allow it.
At first I agreed. But unless it's stalling and just used as a few second technique, isn't that acceptable? What about it would make it broken if not used as stalling?
 

dguy6789

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At first I agreed. But unless it's stalling and just used as a few second technique, isn't that acceptable? What about it would make it broken if not used as stalling?
If it is allowed, people will use it for stalling. That's the kind of technique it is. You could try and defend it, but that would be similar to saying the luigi ladder has practical tournament use as well. The technique is basically turn on invincibility and move around, turn off at your leisure. There is no way it will be allowed.
 

Metal_Dave

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At first I agreed. But unless it's stalling and just used as a few second technique, isn't that acceptable? What about it would make it broken if not used as stalling?
Exactly.

But other than that it should be allowed for the time being, and we shall see what the results are and then we can discuss and see if it should be allowed or not.
 

Equi

Smash Ace
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Messages
767
Yeah. It'd be a lot easier just to ban it altogether with a character that's broken enough as. Combine invincibility with tornado and it's just meh. You could not use it as stalling and dissapear occasionally at your leisure, this was my original point. Then we'd have to judge it as a rule and it's just be a pain in the ***.
 

Finch

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Look, my policy is to not ban something until it's proven broken.

I have to stick with my convictions.

So that's that. If you lose because of it, well that's your fault. No johns, you lose, you lose.

It will be allowed, just as wobbling is, until it is considered stalling. What is considered stalling?

If you get to a point where the match cannot progress naturally because one opponent is manipulating the situation using a specific move, that is stalling (so basically 20/30 seconds or so).

Honestly if someone is using it to stall, it is YOUR right as a player to speak up and say "Hey, that guy is stalling, etc. etc." Otherwise, it's your own **** fault.
I actually have been meaning to say something about wobbling but haven't ever remembered until you brought it up. It says on your rules that wobbling past 150% is stalling but that's a pretty low percent considering you can't get a guaranteed kill with it until at least 180-200% on dreamland. The rules should be until past 250%
 

Frames

DI
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Read the original thread on the technique more carefully. It has already been proven broken and only someone who doesn't understand competitive smash would allow it.

Well then, I guess I don't understand competitive smash.

I have read the thread many times (in fact I have it open in another tab), and have paid close attention to the arguments presented in it, I can understand why you would want to ban it, while a lot of good points have been made, no concrete evidence has been presented (i.e. tourney results), since it was just discovered today. If after FAST it is proven a serious problem then I'm sure it will be banned at any future tournaments held.

I actually have been meaning to say something about wobbling but haven't ever remembered until you brought it up. It says on your rules that wobbling past 150% is stalling but that's a pretty low percent considering you can't get a guaranteed kill with it until at least 180-200% on dreamland. The rules should be until past 250%
250 eh? That does sound better actually, I'll look into it.
 

CaptainCrunch

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I don't think it should be banned. executing this move and keeping it is as harder than shdl with fox in melee. i can't see this used for stalling, it is wayyy too difficult to do for more than one run across the stage at a time. I think its a nice addition to competitive smash.

and no tornado span johns. It is avoidable and punishable if you're any good.

If this is banned it will be after ICs are banned. The infinite grabs are far more broken.
 

dguy6789

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Well then, I guess I don't understand competitive smash.

I have read the thread many times (in fact I have it open in another tab), and have paid close attention to the arguments presented in it, I can understand why you would want to ban it, while a lot of good points have been made, no concrete evidence has been presented (i.e. tourney results), since it was just discovered today. If after FAST it is proven a serious problem then I'm sure it will be banned at any future tournaments held.
Evo is also doing items in their Brawl tournament because we at SWF have failed to provide tourney evidence that shows that items hinder competitive play. What about the huge number of stages that have been banned without tourneys being held to see if they were broken or not? Some things don't require tournament results to be shown for what they are.
 

BearsAreScary

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Feb 22, 2007
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Ideas like banning MK/Snake shouldn't be entirely out of the question.

There are reasons why characters are banned in games that are played in tournament:

Shin Akuma/God Rugal/Dark Iori/Evil Ryu in CvS2
Kliff/Justice in GGXX
Akuma in SF2
Chaos Neko Arc in MB?
Custom characters in SC3

I'm sure there are others but I don't really know enough about every game's tournaments to put them here.

Thus, the question is not "Are these characters beatable?", as the argument always exists "Well, if you play well enough, you can beat them." The question is whether or not they are fair in terms of tournament play. The above mentioned characters CAN be beaten by skillful players, although likely less than 50% of the time, but why are they banned? People have decided that at high-level play, they are too hard to beat for people playing the rest of the cast.

I'm not saying that MK and Snake need to be banned, I'm just saying that people should not throw this idea out the window altogether. I personally believe that Brawl is a boring and poor enough tournament game as it is, but with every week a new Snake or MK glitch/exploit coming out that makes them better and better (Grenade stripping, dash attack -> up-smash, tornado spam, and now the cape infinite - not to mention a bunch more minor ones), it should definitely at least be considered.

And yes, I understand there is a fine line between top tiers and ban-worthy characters. I realize that Chun-li, Yun and Ken win all the 3S tournaments, and Fox/Falco/Marth win all the melee tournaments. Perhaps Brawl is like those and people will figure out ways to fight these characters, or perhaps the tournaments will continue to be further dominated by MK/Snake. I guess only time will tell....

I have only one simple solution: let's all play Smash 64 and be happy!
 

dguy6789

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I think the idea should be thrown out the window for now at the least. A character should only be banned when it is only possible to beat it with itself. That as of now is not going to happen with anybody in Brawl. Snakes and MKs don't win automatically, they still lose sometimes, and they aren't even winning 100% of the big tourneys.

Let's play Melee.
 

CaptainCrunch

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Evo is also doing items in their Brawl tournament because we at SWF have failed to provide tourney evidence that shows that items hinder competitive play. What about the huge number of stages that have been banned without tourneys being held to see if they were broken or not? Some things don't require tournament results to be shown for what they are.
Normally when you make arguments I agree but I think you are completely wrong in this.

Stalling: you can't keep it for more than a couple of seconds without messing up and is easily punished by simply keeping track of the camera.

Strategy: once again you can use the camera and you can't keep it for a while. The most useful wa I've seen of using it is as a handing edge recovery technique in which case you can still be punished out of it because the camera reveals your position.

Broken, I think not, the most applicable usage of it is edge recovery which in both the tornado is more effective.
Try it in a match the mindgame applications are narrow.

this is couple with the fact that its really **** hard to do it consitently.
 

CaptainCrunch

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Ideas like banning MK/Snake shouldn't be entirely out of the question.

There are reasons why characters are banned in games that are played in tournament:

Shin Akuma/God Rugal/Dark Iori/Evil Ryu in CvS2
Kliff/Justice in GGXX
Akuma in SF2
Chaos Neko Arc in MB?
Custom characters in SC3

I'm sure there are others but I don't really know enough about every game's tournaments to put them here.

Thus, the question is not "Are these characters beatable?", as the argument always exists "Well, if you play well enough, you can beat them." The question is whether or not they are fair in terms of tournament play. The above mentioned characters CAN be beaten by skillful players, although likely less than 50% of the time, but why are they banned? People have decided that at high-level play, they are too hard to beat for people playing the rest of the cast.

I'm not saying that MK and Snake need to be banned, I'm just saying that people should not throw this idea out the window altogether. I personally believe that Brawl is a boring and poor enough tournament game as it is, but with every week a new Snake or MK glitch/exploit coming out that makes them better and better (Grenade stripping, dash attack -> up-smash, tornado spam, and now the cape infinite - not to mention a bunch more minor ones), it should definitely at least be considered.

And yes, I understand there is a fine line between top tiers and ban-worthy characters. I realize that Chun-li, Yun and Ken win all the 3S tournaments, and Fox/Falco/Marth win all the melee tournaments. Perhaps Brawl is like those and people will figure out ways to fight these characters, or perhaps the tournaments will continue to be further dominated by MK/Snake. I guess only time will tell....

I have only one simple solution: let's all play Smash 64 and be happy!
I just have to add that jigglypuff, sheik, and captain Falcon are also contenders for winning tourneys, Melee is normally determined on skill not char.
Just felt the need to throw that out there.

Edit: Can't forget peach too, she's nasty.

BearsAREscary they have bear powers and nothin besides a human + gun combo beats a bear.
 

dguy6789

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Doesn't matter how hard it is to do, someone can put in enough practice to be able to use it for the length of a match. The stuff in this game and Melee technically are child's play compared to the difficulty of some of the techniques people perform consistently in other fighting games. You can't base things around the enemy messing up. If that were the case, a whole bunch of walk off levels would be legal in melee because wave shining was "hard" and the player would "probably" mess up before they carried you off the stage with it.
 

Jartravious

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I actually have been meaning to say something about wobbling but haven't ever remembered until you brought it up. It says on your rules that wobbling past 150% is stalling but that's a pretty low percent considering you can't get a guaranteed kill with it until at least 180-200% on dreamland. The rules should be until past 250%
Sorry to ask this since it is a little of topic but what is wobbling?
 

EternalCrusade

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Evo is also doing items in their Brawl tournament because we at SWF have failed to provide tourney evidence that shows that items hinder competitive play.
Evo's incompetence will not effect the outcome of this argument. Items are turned off because they spawn randomly and that's not fair.

What about the huge number of stages that have been banned without tourneys being held to see if they were broken or not?
Some stages should obviously be banned, like Wario Ware, because it's random and unfair, but it didn't take very long to decide on Neutral stages. Even now, however, as we go to more and more tournaments and partake in more and more competitive matches, the border line of neutral stages and counterpicks is constantly called into question, with stages like Delfino Plaza and Pokemon Stadium 1. We need to actually learn through experiment if we want to have a fair competitive scene.

Some things don't require tournament results to be shown for what they are.
If we kept items on during tournaments, or allowed every stage, then when we have a winner, whose to say it was or was not because he used an item or because the stage killed his opponent. But with a technique like this Meta Knight thing, it'll be very obvious if we see all or most tournaments being won by Meta Knights abusing this technique.

We have never before faced a technique with this much power or controversy. If this tech is banned immediately without ever being allowed in a single tournament, then I question if we have the right SBR members.
 

CaptainCrunch

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Doesn't matter how hard it is to do, someone can put in enough practice to be able to use it for the length of a match. You can't base things around the enemy messing up. If that were the case, a whole bunch of walk off levels would be legal in melee because wave shining was "hard" and the player would "probably" mess up before they carried you off the stage with it.
Not the same thing, that was a horrible reference. Walk off levels were banned because it was an instant kill, if a fox had enough skill to waveshine.
This techinique doesn't hurt the opponent, and if someone, like you said had amazing zero limit skill and COULD hold it for a while it wont hurt the opponent. Also this is many many times harder than waveshining. I know from experience.

Also if the enemy tries to attack simply shield.
An easy response to an amazing player doing this is just spam roll.
if they attack you shield and get a free grab.
If they don't you roll and the battle sequence resets, either way this is not broken or banable.

This should be better referenced as SHDL because it is about the same difficulty to perform.

Have you even tried to use this technique in a match or just in practice?

it is hard, and has no offensive applications besides mindgames.

also stages are normally banned so characters are not banned.

If we let walled stages exist we would have to ban all characters that could infinate chain grab.

Edit:
If we kept items on during tournaments, or allowed every stage, then when we have a winner, whose to say it was or was not because he used an item or because the stage killed his opponent. But with a technique like this Meta Knight thing, it'll be very obvious if we see all or most tournaments being won by Meta Knights abusing this technique.

We have never before faced a technique with this much power or controversy. If this tech is banned immediately without ever being allowed in a single tournament, then I question if we have the right SBR members.
This being banned is a joke

this tech iis difficult and has little application.

I'll say it one more time,

Unless the enemy stays still and does nothing,

THIS TECHNIQUE CANNOT AND DOES NOT KILL.

in most cases it does not even give you an advantage rather gives the opponents a free hit.
 

Ced5000

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Miami,Fl
Has anyone tested how far this thing can go? and is it easy to control where you will reappear?
 

TheReflexWonder

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Not the same thing, that was a horrible reference. Walk off levels were banned because it was an instant kill, if a fox had enough skill to waveshine.
This techinique doesn't hurt the opponent, and if someone, like you said had amazing zero limit skill and COULD hold it for a while it wont hurt the opponent. Also this is many many times harder than waveshining. I know from experience.

Also if the enemy tries to attack simply shield.
An easy response to an amazing player doing this is just spam roll.
if they attack you shield and get a free grab.
If they don't you roll and the battle sequence resets, either way this is not broken or banable.

This should be better referenced as SHDL because it is about the same difficulty to perform.

Have you even tried to use this technique in a match or just in practice?

it is hard, and has no offensive applications besides mindgames.
If you have a lower damage percentage at the end of the match, then you win.

Just saying.
 

Frames

DI
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Evo is also doing items in their Brawl tournament because we at SWF have failed to provide tourney evidence that shows that items hinder competitive play. What about the huge number of stages that have been banned without tourneys being held to see if they were broken or not? Some things don't require tournament results to be shown for what they are.
Actually the people running Evo decided to do items on their own, because they feel brawl is a new game and they want to take it in a new direction, in spite of the overwhelming evidence provided by the community. Years of tournament results with and without items helped prove items were broken and not suited for competitive play. Also, all those stages came out the same way, from years of debate and testing in tournaments. Nobody ever just looked at a stage and said, "yup it's banned", it only comes from lots of collected data. So i don't know exactly what point you're trying to make, but oh well.
 

CaptainCrunch

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I dare you guys to show me anyone using this to stall. or even in a match showing this technique being used for more than 10 seconds and not getting punished right after wards.

1) don't talk about hypothetical its POSSIBLE to stall when you can't/
2) (has to do with one) before you talk about applicability just try to do it.
3) this can be easily countered by roll dodge to grab.
4) you are not invisible as you can tell the general location of MK by looking at the camera.
5) as far as stalls go down -b/ up B onto edge is more efective. tornado is more effective. Half of MKs arsenal is more effective.
 

EternalCrusade

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I vote Frames for chairman of the entire competitive scene. If he handled all the decisions about tournament play by himself, I'll be happy.
 
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