Metaknight iz zo brokn!!!!!!!!!!!!

[viparagon]

Worst Uair is NOT Jiggs. You know "the Wall of Pain"?

that's not the WoP, but it still isn't a bad move...

@ the PT main: Another PT main was the one to tell me to list it as the worst, and I agree with him

 

[Ussi]

Why did you remove Ike's usmash? I have already explained this before.

 

[brinboy789]

why is MK grab STILL on it? i understand its just his grabs, but snakes grabs and DK's beat him in almost every way...

 

[viparagon]

Why did you remove Ike's usmash? I have already explained this before.

Sorry, I added charizard then forgot which thing I replaced >__>


I'm also thinking about adding a new category... Character specific ATs!

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I think there are some missing:
Fsmash: Zelda (last time i checked you couldnt SDI out of it, now im not sure)
Usmash: Charizard... its really good
Dash attack: Ivysaur.. it even kill decently
Utilt: charizards kills very well, and squirtles comboes like crazy
Charizards uair is soooo far from the worst... i would say the worst is... jigglys??
How is zeldas the worst dair???

Zelda's Fsmash can be DId out of... which sucks for us... but it doesn't happen most of the time and the fact that it has amazing range, lingering hitboxes and very low cooldown along with above average knockback make it good. But I wouldn't say top ten... uness it's barely top ten.

Charlie's usmash is good... but I wouldn't say that it's any better than anyone on that list. IT's probably pretty middle of the road as far as Usmashes go really

I <3 Ivy's dash attack... but I tend to think of it as a more extreme version of Zelda's dash attack. Both have good killing power, both come out very quick... both have a lot of cooldown. I wouldn't put either top of the list for that... though, considering both are punishable enough, I'll take ivy's extra cooldown for his extra kill power. It's good... maybe top 10... not anywhere high in top 10... but maybe.

I'm less than impressed with charlie's utilt... squirtles is nice though. not the best, or even close, but it's fast, and can combo at low damages.

jigglypuff's uair is better than charlie's. it's less powerful, but it is has more utility all around.

Zelda's dair is nowhere near the worst. it spikes... and it's one of the most powerful spikes in the game. ZSS, Sheik and IC's have much worse dairs

 

[viparagon]

Zelda's Fsmash can be DId out of... which sucks for us... but it doesn't happen most of the time and the fact that it has amazing range, lingering hitboxes and very low cooldown along with above average knockback make it good. But I wouldn't say top ten... uness it's barely top ten.

Charlie's usmash is good... but I wouldn't say that it's any better than anyone on that list. IT's probably pretty middle of the road as far as Usmashes go really

I <3 Ivy's dash attack... but I tend to think of it as a more extreme version of Zelda's dash attack. Both have good killing power, both come out very quick... both have a lot of cooldown. I wouldn't put either top of the list for that... though, considering both are punishable enough, I'll take ivy's extra cooldown for his extra kill power. It's good... maybe top 10... not anywhere high in top 10... but maybe.

I'm less than impressed with charlie's utilt... squirtles is nice though. not the best, or even close, but it's fast, and can combo at low damages.

jigglypuff's uair is better than charlie's. it's less powerful, but it is has more utility all around.

Zelda's dair is nowhere near the worst. it spikes... and it's one of the most powerful spikes in the game. ZSS, Sheik and IC's have much worse dairs

the hitbox is just so small, tho...

at leasts sheiks, ics, and Zerosuit's can hit... and provide a relatively safe way to return to stage if they are knocked high, plus, they help prevent ceiling KOs, did you take that into account?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

the hitbox is just so small, tho...

at leasts sheiks, ics, and Zerosuit's can hit... and provide a relatively safe way to return to stage if they are knocked high, plus, they help prevent ceiling KOs, did you take that into account?

they are no better at preventing ceiling KOs than a fast move you can throw out to momentum cancell... in fact, they are worse at it because they are so slow... and, as long as you are in motion from being hit, they do not have any special effects on momentum.. that's a fallacy.

dude. Zelda's Dair is much stronger than falco's and is only slightly more difficult to hit with.

also, there's not much "safe" about Sheik's or ZSS's considering how weak they are and the RIDICULOUS amount of landing lag they have. not to mention that sheik's and IC's have some startup lag and that none of the attacks (especially ZSS's) can be used off the stage when the foe is below you because YOU, not them, will die.

I play sheik and ZSS lots. and trust me. Zelda's dair is better than both of theirs. ICs I don't play so much, but it doesn't seem to have many more redeeming qualities.

Zelda's dair can be used off the edge for some REALLY low damage KOs thanks to it's amazing spike power, and the fact it's still a weak spike even it it doesn't sweetspot makes it at least semi effective and hard to punish if you sourspot. Speaking of which, on the stage, sourspotted-autocancelled dairs into buffered attacks are legitamate setups for zelda.

basically, all sheik's, ZSS's and IC's dairs do is get you to the stage quicker. they don't set up for anything, they don't finish off anyone and they are not always safe moves. they are bad.

 

[Kirby Redux]

You have to come up with one that's worse.

Ok, ZSS's is worse.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Charizards uair is fast, has some good range, and lingers, i dont see as the worst, but i still have to come out with which one is worst.... maybe peach's,bowser's or wolf's???
I agree totally with sonic-the-edgedawg.. zelda's dair is pretty good... the only thing i have to add is that maybe IC's is better, because it has crazy priority
And i find hard to believe that pika's bair is the worst

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Charizards uair is fast, has some good range, and lingers, i dont see as the worst, but i still have to come out with which one is worst.... maybe peach's,bowser's or wolf's???
I agree totally with sonic-the-edgedawg.. zelda's dair is pretty good... the only thing i have to add is that maybe IC's is better, because it has crazy priority
And i find hard to believe that pika's bair is the worst

bowser's and Wolf's are both much better than charlie's; they kill very well. Peach's tends to work better as well because it's harder to punish but it's not much better.

Iunno. charlie's isn't exceptionally strong, but it has the lagginess of a strong KO move. I never use it, I'll use FLY to kill before I'll use Uair

 

[Nanaki]

I didn't feel like wading through 68 pages, so it might have been mentioned already, but how is Squirtle's dthrow not top 5? It's one of the only dthrows that can KO at legit %. Granted, D3/Falco/IC's get CG's with theirs, but lack of Squirtle on dthrow seems like an oversight to me, and I don't even play PT much.

Edit: I suppose I should say which on that list it's better than. I think it's better than Lucas' for sure, and possibly Snake's (although his can be a ledge infinite, can't it?). I certainly think it warrants being above Lucas' because of it being one of Squirtle's better KO options.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I didn't feel like wading through 68 pages, so it might have been mentioned already, but how is Squirtle's dthrow not top 5? It's one of the only dthrows that can KO at legit %. Granted, D3/Falco/IC's get CG's with theirs, but lack of Squirtle on dthrow seems like an oversight to me, and I don't even play PT much.

Edit: I suppose I should say which on that list it's better than. I think it's better than Lucas' for sure, and possibly Snake's (although his can be a ledge infinite, can't it?). I certainly think it warrants being above Lucas' because of it being one of Squirtle's better KO options.

indeed. both charlie's and squirtz's are much better than lucas's

 

[Nanaki]

indeed. both charlie's and squirtz's are much better than lucas's

Yeah, forgot about Charlie's too, good call. His is beast, and if looks count for anything, his dthrow wins. Coolest looking dthrow with the possible exception of Kirby/MK hippity-hops.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Yeah, forgot about Charlie's too, good call. His is beast, and if looks count for anything, his dthrow wins. Coolest looking dthrow with the possible exception of Kirby/MK hippity-hops.

only in slow motion to the peanut butter jelly rap.

but yeah. squirtle and charlie are about even with snake for Dthrow.

 

[viparagon]

sorry to spoil the fun, but lucas's Dthrow is more powerful than either of those{ check the throw list)

 

[viparagon]

Ok, ZSS's is worse.

lol I was considering it for top ten... It and uair are her best aerials


EDIT:*facepalm*srryfordoublepost(SFDP in future)

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

sorry to spoil the fun, but lucas's Dthrow is more powerful than either of those{ check the throw list)

lucas's throw kills at lower damage non DI'd from the center of the screen.

Charlie's and Squritle's send you out at an angle meaning that they are already about as favourable as DI is going to be, you can't take the edge off. and they kill at lower damages than lucas's near the edge because they send them outwards.

 

[viparagon]

lucas's throw kills at lower damage non DI'd from the center of the screen.

Charlie's and Squritle's send you out at an angle meaning that they are already about as favourable as DI is going to be, you can't take the edge off. and they kill at lower damages than lucas's near the edge because they send them outwards.

conversly, tho, they'll kill later if zard and squirtle are facing away from the edge

 

[xoxokev]

Don;t try to argue with viparagon... your opinions don't matter to him

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

conversly, tho, they'll kill later if zard and squirtle are facing away from the edge

in which case you wouldn't use it. I'd assume that's a given. who would attack toward the stage?

with that logic, moves which kill off the top are always better than those which don't because they are allowed to attack in the wrong dirrection.

you merely said lucas's killed lower. I said that's not always true. DI'd I don't think it does. and I know it doesn't near an edge.

 

[xoxokev]

if you're talking about killing with throws... sometimes it depends on the stage... Lucas' dthrow can kill at about 140% on Final Destination, but not on Smashville

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

i don't think zelda's dair is the worst when done right is a strong spike. Its a hard more to hit and is not a very good move but i don't think its the worst.

here is a video of it being used and working very well
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuEaAWD2vFY

 

[Browny]

but can you name a worse dair?

almost every other spike that doesnt have a sweetspot at least has a large amount of knockback and/or damage (dk/yoshi fair, ness/lucas dair). Zeldas spike is not only extremely hard to land, but it serves no purpose other than to spike, in which case its pretty high up there for worst damage-dealing dair in the game.

 

[jalued]

sheiks jab is awsome, leads into everything, means u can ftilti lock, dtilt, nair, fair, combo the hell outa the opponent tbh, and its faster than nearly every other move

 

[Judge Judy]

sheiks jab is awsome, leads into everything, means u can ftilti lock, dtilt, nair, fair, combo the hell outa the opponent tbh, and its faster than nearly every other move

Sheik's jab is good but it isn't anything all that special; lots of characters have good 2 frame jabs that can jab cancel into other moves.

 

[ungulateman]

Pika's Bair is worse than zelda's. LAG.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Squirtle's dthrow is better than lucas' IMO, it can kill sooner (i think), can be hydrograbbed and squirtle has less lag when missing the grab, charizards is not as good as some people think, its easy to DI it because its not that strong and it takes sometime to perform the throw while charizard flames the oponent (i could say the same for lucas)... but still its soooooo cool

 

[viparagon]

lucas's kills sooner, but

hydrograbbiin' would go into a ranking of Character-specific ATs, and thats grabbed anyway

@hedgedog

I'll probably change it, but my only point was that lucas's can kill anywhere on the stage...

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

but can you name a worse dair?

almost every other spike that doesnt have a sweetspot at least has a large amount of knockback and/or damage (dk/yoshi fair, ness/lucas dair). Zeldas spike is not only extremely hard to land, but it serves no purpose other than to spike, in which case its pretty high up there for worst damage-dealing dair in the game.

Actually, I can name 3.
Sheik, ZSS, Ice Climbers.

Zelda's spike is ridiculously strong. only ike and ganondorf outpower it. Falco's requires some precision as well and is considerably weaker, but look where it ranks.

also that's not its only use. on the stage, it can be autocancelled and buffered into several attacks making it a good damage dealer because it leads into legitimate setups for zelda. And, because, because, unlike the others, Zelda's dair doesn't send her plummeting, it means she actually has defenses against attacks from below if she's off the stage.

Sheik, ZSS and IC's have no setups out of their dairs, almost no killing potential with them. they are terribly predictable, they broadcast themselves so they aren't easy to hit with and they have lots of landing lag making them very punishable.

explain to me how any of them are better than zelda's

 

[The_Blue_Bomber]

Once again I still don't see why Ness is not on the Up+B list, PK Thunder is amazing and PKT2 kills at insane percents.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

also, Squirtle's Fsmash > ZSS's Fsmash

it's not even close

 

[viparagon]

it may rack up 20 damage in the air, but its a bad recovery...

and Zelda's dair is off the list...

The traffic sure has gone down as the list has improved!

how bout the character specifc advanced techs? any suggestions?

 

[Judge Judy]

Once again I still don't see why Ness is not on the Up+B list, PK Thunder is amazing and PKT2 kills at insane percents.

Here's a better question, why is DK's Up B on the list and not Mario's?

 

[viparagon]

Here's a better question, why is DK's Up B on the list and not Mario's?

recovery, maybe?

 

[Judge Judy]

recovery, maybe?

Maybe, but we've had this discussion before:

DK's gets great horizontal distance but it's an easy atk to intercept and gets horid vertical distance. Mario's gets good vertical distance, has a huge ledge sweetspot, invincible startup, very high priority, powerful stage spike, and comes out in 3 frames. The downsides to Mario's Up B as a recovery move is that it doesn't get great horizontal distance and it is farily easy to edgehog without cape stalling.

 

[Negi-Kun]

I disagree with almost all of this...

 

[viparagon]

Maybe, but we've had this discussion before:

DK's gets great horizontal distance but it's an easy atk to intercept and gets horid vertical distance. Mario's gets good vertical distance, has a huge ledge sweetspot, invincible startup, very high priority, powerful stage spike, and comes out in 3 frames. The downsides to Mario's Up B as a recovery move is that it doesn't get great horizontal distance and it is farily easy to edgehog without cape stalling.

It may seem easy to gimp for us mario mains, but other good gimpers such as MK find it to be one of the most difficult. the ledge sweetspot is very useful, but a smart opponent can guage the distance if it's going to be close and legdehog. Dk's lingering hitbox makes it alot harder. On stage, mario's is better, but DK's is still formidable with inviniciblilty frames (or super armor, don't recall) and the 20% it will often do when it hits. plus it has more range.

I disagree with almost all of this...

I'm sorry to hear that. Care to elaborate?

 

[Judge Judy]

It may seem easy to gimp for us mario mains, but other good gimpers such as MK find it to be one of the most difficult. the ledge sweetspot is very useful, but a smart opponent can guage the distance if it's going to be close and legdehog. Dk's lingering hitbox makes it alot harder. On stage, mario's is better, but DK's is still formidable with inviniciblilty frames (or super armor, don't recall) and the 20% it will often do when it hits. plus it has more range.

DK's Up B has some SA frames during its startup and the atk has good priority around the sides of the move, but has no priority around the top and bottom of the move. Also, you can SDI out of DK's Up B more reliably than Mario's.

 

[viparagon]

DK's Up B has some SA frames during its startup and the atk has good priority around the sides of the move, but has no priority around the top and bottom of the move. Also, you can SDI out of DK's Up B more reliably than Mario's.

very true, but as of roight now I'm afraid DK should stay...

 

[Judge Judy]

very true, but as of roight now I'm afraid DK should stay...

I understand, give me a call if you change your mind though.