demonictoonlink
Smash Master
Snake
Oh Meta Knight vs. Snake…The classic brawl matchup. These are pieces of great posts that hopefully give a good understanding of the match up. I'm not exactly sure I'm doing this right
Important aspects of this matchup:
MK doesn't REALLY gimp Snake...He puts him in a terrible position offstage, but a good Snake shouldn't be getting "gimped" per se.
If he nade pulls and doesn't shield drop it and cooks it/runs to you to grab/shield, Dtilt is amazing here. If it hits, he has like no options. And it can really only be punished if he perfect shields it. And Dtilt won't blow it up.
Juggling is really important in this matchup. He’ll probably wavebounce a nade when he’s going in one direction, so be weary of that. Tornado can be helpful when he is in the air, but be careful of his BAir from above if you nado.
Rethrowing his nades back at him is a viable option, but situational. He can shield drop another one and you’re ****ed, so be careful. Learn to instant throw (you should know how to do this for the Diddy matchup, too). But remember, be careful with throwing his nades.
If you get a stock lead (or even a good percent lead maybe) you CAN camp him and possibly time him out.
Mostly everyone already knows this, but in case new MKs read this, when Snake uses his cypher, you can aerial up-B him, and you’ll knock him away, and you’ll hit the cypher and be safe.
Fairing right outside of Snake's ftilt area is good because:
-Beats dash attack
-Catches Snake's who like to walk forward with a grenade (facing away)
-Catches Snake's Ftilt limbs from the correct distance.
The best "kind" of grenade Snake can use on MK is the soft lob, it's annoying, if it touches you it's %2 or so. Believe it or not, lobbing dmg adds up! Especially if you start getting blown up by them. The trajectory limits MK's mobility on the floor, if you run you might get Ftilted and so on.
Snake downthrows in certain stage positions are scary sometimes, during those situations the MK should probably use the options least expected. Even if it's stupid. Here's why:
-A Snake downthrow with the MK facing the edge is practically death, he holds shield and waits for any roll, get up attack etc. You're dead. You might as well try something silly like staying on the floor and wait for his shield to get small enough to poke him with the getup attack. You're dead anyways, might as well take the riskiest route to get out of that kind of situation. You have nothing to lose.
ecently, Snake's have been using upairs and bairs, if you expect them then you'll probably never get hit by them. I honestly think Snake's aerials are amazing, they just require specific knowledge of when and how to use them.
When juggling, take the position that you know if he keeps going you will upair him. If he wave bounces, you can land and run quickly to his landing and punish. It's a presence control of the stage, even if Snake isn't near yet it still serves purpose to punish the possibility of Snake's trajectory.
To be honest, Tornado isn't great vs Snake, there are better options. Everyone expects it anyways, it's only useful vs a landing Snake. But I would personally rather grab any day. Or use it with the Dair bait. Nothing special.
Amazing post by The Unable Table...or whatever his name is now.
[COLLAPSE=Great Post]
[/COLLAPSE]I only noticed Ally getting ***** by nado from Ksizzle at pound 4, and then in that Brinstar match at Orlando.
It's a good option in this matchup. Don't just approach with nado, but in some situations it's really really good.
Havok gave me some advice in this matchup a few months ago, actually.
If he nade pulls and doesn't shield drop it and cooks it/runs to you to grab/shield, Dtilt is amazing here. If it hits, he has like no options. And it can really only be punished if he perfect shields it. And Dtilt won't blow it up.
And simply walking up is a good approach. I mean don't do it blindly, but walking up and tilting him works surprisingly well.
Dair camping can kinda work.
His nade pull has endlag, so you can punish him for pulling a nade if you're close (won't happen much, but still).
Make sure you learn the timing for the omnigay. It's reaaaaaaaaaally situational, but it happens, and when the opportunity comes up it's good to get a free stock.
One thing I’ve noticed recently that’s a really good mixup is if you land a dash grab right at the ledge, do an Fthrow immediately, then jump and nair at them. They have like no options if they don’t DI it right (and since buffering an Fthrow is faster than human reaction, it can happen).
If the nair hits them, they’re further off stage and in a bad position, if they air dodge it they’re below the stage, which is a REALLY bad position.
I mean if they DI away from you I think they might be fine, but it’s still a good mixup to think about.
FD isn’t reaaally bad. I’d rather go to FD than Halberd, anyways. For CPs, Brinstar is incredible. Just watch Ally vs M2K from Orlando and you’ll see why. But it’ll probably get banned by the Snake (or if you’re in a really stupid region, or have a stupid TO, it might be banned anyways). So RC is probably your best bet if they ban Brinstar. Delfino is good too.
DON’T dash attack him. The risk just isn’t worth the possible reward most of the time, and if you can punish him with it, a grab would be better anyways.
Make sure you can jab lock with your Dtilt consistently, every once in a long while a Snake might DI your Dthrow away and not tech/AD. The huge punish helps against Snake. It’s not hard to Dtilt lock, just practice it for a few minutes in training and you’ll have it down forever. It’s a really situational, but amazing when the situation comes up, trick that applies to every matchup.
Whatever the **** you do, don’t get grabbed. His Dthrow tech chase game is stupid.
Juggling is really important in this matchup. He’ll probably wavebounce a nade when he’s going in one direction, so be weary of that. Tornado can be helpful when he is in the air, but be careful of his BAir from above if you nado.
Tilts are good in this matchup. Your tilts are more disjointed than his, and they’re faster.
If you’re on the ledge/planking, watch the **** out for his C4. It has a CRAPTON of range and can hit you while you’re planking. (I didn’t know it could hit me while planking until it actually happened to me lol. So might as well mention it and hopefully save some new MK player from getting punished by C4 for playing gay )
Rethrowing his nades back at him is a viable option, but situational. He can shield drop another one and you’re ****ed, so be careful. Learn to instant throw (you should know how to do this for the Diddy matchup, too). But remember, be careful with throwing his nades.
Learn to SDI his nair and dair. Again situational, but dair OoS is dumb if you don’t SDI it. You’ll die stupidly early.
Don’t approach with nado or you’ll get *****, especially if you’re at high percents.
Don’t play TOO scared around his nades. Walking up is a surprisingly good option because his nades aren’t really dangerous for 3 seconds. You still have to be smart around them, but don’t be too scared to walk past a nade that’s only been on the ground for a second.
If you get a stock lead (or even a good percent lead maybe) you CAN camp him and possibly time him out.
If you’re gimping him, watch out for his forward air. They rarely use it, but it CAN hit since you rarely ever expect it. Just a little dumb mixup that Snake can do that you need to watch out for.
Mostly everyone already knows this, but in case new MKs read this, when Snake uses his cypher, you can aerial up-B him, and you’ll knock him away, and you’ll hit the cypher and be safe.
And if he cyphers near the stage, if you grab him and air release without pummeling, he can’t up B or jump again (but he can C4, unless you get hit by his cypher during the grab and auto-ground release him).
Learn the spacing of nado so that if he grenade pulls, you hit him without hitting the grenade.
I’d say that the ratio is probably around 55:45, maybe better or worse depending on the ruleset. With MLG rules it’s definitely in the 55:45-60:40 range, but with a really conservative ruleset, it’s probably closer to 50:50.
So, basically, tilts can be good, don’t get grabbed, gimp him, juggle him, make sure not to get punished (as in don’t throw out really risky stuff, he punishes you stupidly hard), don’t be too scared of nades, punish him hard whenever you have the chance, and tornado is good but don't be dumb with it. Watch Ksizzle vs Ally from Pound 4 and M2K vs Ally from Orlando on Brinstar to see generally good usage of nado. But, really, just read the whole post
Another great post by Havok
[COLLAPSE=Havok's Post]
[/COLLAPSE]The MK should adjust to whatever the Snake does.
Fairing right outside of Snake's ftilt area is good because:
-Beats dash attack
-Catches Snake's who like to walk forward with a grenade (facing away)
-Catches Snake's Ftilt limbs from the correct distance.
^ Table is right about the Dtilt, spacing it when Snake tries to control the matchup with grenades is gold! Loses to dash attack and Ftilt though.
Personally, I like to rack up dmg as quickly as I can with Nairs, grabs (which puts him in the air for) and Upairs. A good Snake will never get shuttle looped to death, it's almost obsolete unless the Snake makes a mistake and is placed outside of the stage at an early percent.
I save the Downsmash to kill around %150-160, It sounds like alot and a bit absurd but it's not because:
-You have psychological advantage because of (hopefully) percent lead.
- At high percents Snake's will usually be in the air because they take so long to recover from everything so they will usually either...
A. Grenade "land" - Which you can Dsmash the FEET
B. Aerial - Shield, dsmash
C. Airdodge - Regrab or Dsmash
Someone probably already mentioned this, Snake's who leave grenades on the floor = Shuttle loop from the floor and use the invincibility frames to blow them up.
Grabs are HUGE to gain/build momentum, a pummel + Down throw = about %14. It's not hard to grab Snake! Just don't try to when he has a solid footing on the ground, it usually happens when he lands.
Buffer dash attack landings is nice when you read airdodges.
Personally I do not like, Dair camping. It doesn't accomplish much, both players don't get hit, however, it gives MK a bait (wait for uptilt - tornado). That's it! I would rather stay grounded and look for opportunities etc etc.
Offstage, a fresh Dair knocks Snake off his cypher, the rest after that do not. Be creative, Dair, Nair, Nair, wait, shuttle. Dead. A good Snake won't die from something like this, they'll probably take the c4 recovery route forcing the MK to get back to the stage. In this scenario, simply keep the Snake offstage for more dmg (which is why racking up dmg is very easy) or try to footstool his C4 recovery.
The best "kind" of grenade Snake can use on MK is the soft lob, it's annoying, if it touches you it's %2 or so. Believe it or not, lobbing dmg adds up! Especially if you start getting blown up by them. The trajectory limits MK's mobility on the floor, if you run you might get Ftilted and so on.
Snake downthrows in certain stage positions are scary sometimes, during those situations the MK should probably use the options least expected. Even if it's stupid. Here's why:
-A Snake downthrow with the MK facing the edge is practically death, he holds shield and waits for any roll, get up attack etc. You're dead. You might as well try something silly like staying on the floor and wait for his shield to get small enough to poke him with the getup attack. You're dead anyways, might as well take the riskiest route to get out of that kind of situation. You have nothing to lose.
If Snake is on the edge, the best option would be dtilt and fair because they knock Snake AWAY from the stage. Tornado, ftilt, grounded upB will only lift him up... allowing an opportunity for him to get to the center of stage and perhaps the floor.
If you're caught in Snake's Nair, you can Upair in it sometimes.
MK's ftilt beats Snake's spotdodge pretty badly and knocks him into the air for a juggle or bait to regrab the airdodge.
Recently, Snake's have been using upairs and bairs, if you expect them then you'll probably never get hit by them. I honestly think Snake's aerials are amazing, they just require specific knowledge of when and how to use them.
When juggling, take the position that you know if he keeps going you will upair him. If he wave bounces, you can land and run quickly to his landing and punish. It's a presence control of the stage, even if Snake isn't near yet it still serves purpose to punish the possibility of Snake's trajectory.
To be honest, Tornado isn't great vs Snake, there are better options. Everyone expects it anyways, it's only useful vs a landing Snake. But I would personally rather grab any day. Or use it with the Dair bait. Nothing special.
An important aspect of matchup is the stage control on the floor, while Snake can limit the MK's ability to move across the floor, it means very little if the Snake begins to corner himself near the edge. A dash grab would mean gimp, a dtilt might knock him off the stage, etc etc. This process is slow, it takes a few sets of grenades, a few jumps and pokes.
The old discussion can be found here:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=179463
From Snake's perspective:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=274541