Meta Knight's New Match Up Thread: Yoshi

[Yikarur]

Yoshi can auto-snap with downB ;D!

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Best part of any post in this whole thread.

Carry on.

Twas intentional. RD da bess.

No, not really. I wanted to see what other options I could use against Yoshi and I was curious what people had to say. Plus I really believe Yoshi gets overlooked and the main reason bats lose to this match up is from a lack of knowledge on what to do against him.

Edit: Speaking of which, I noticed whenever MK tries for a Dtilt or a Ftilt against Yoshi, Yoshi's grab can pull him from a further range.

The only match I could find of a top MK vs a top Yoshi was a MM between Anti and Polt.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdsKC2PmoTM

I've been posting clips from it for a while. Its legit not a good set at all if you're looking to see what MK should be doing in the matchup. If you want i could tell you what Anti should have been doing in certain situations to avoid losing.

Also that happens because you didn't hit us and you ended up moving into the tongues range. If you were a little bit further in that situation you could have baited the Pivot grab and got a punish. A little bit harder to do but still pretty easy. The tongue can't grab you while retracting if you want something a little more visual.

Okay,
first of all:
Yoshi got more than 3 options while recovering vs. MK.
1. If you got proper DI you shouldnt end up under the stage = you don´t have to waste your DJ. Most of the time you should be able to DI back on stage without using your DJ.
2. You´ve even got lots of basic options, like jumping to the edge from below, coming from above and dodging to the edge etc.; then Yoshi got some specific options, like down B´ing to the edge from above, jumping to the edge and using down b, using neutral b, throwing an egg before DJ or to reach heights, when coming from above etc.
If MK just waited at the edge to up b you, you could just go to the edge and then get back from there. You could even jump above him and make it really hard/impossible to aerial up B you back offstage, if you dodge at the right time.
That´s why MKs wont just stand at the edge, if you are recovering. You can´t just stand there and Up B and throw him back offstage by doing so all the time.
Even if you hit by a grounded MK Up B, Yoshi will get thrown offstage on a high angle, which means you can recover from above and Yoshi isn´t easily juggled, cause of his good airspeed.



Show me any video of a metaknight gimping or offstageraping a good Yoshi the way you stated.

k i was typing an essay to explain all of our options and what not but i give up. I'll just agree to disagree here. We're going in circles.

Im just going to say that Proper DI as you said can land us onstage, assuming you watched us do it and didn't try to intercept. Also eggs are very bad. After the eggs explode, we just got our freedom to move back. And after shielding/spotdodging them. We still need to double jump back up there, towards you, with one of 3 options.

SL covers half of our landing options because we have to do it eventually and we have like 2 ways maybe to avoid it which both get covered by other stuff like Fair/Upair/Nado or grabbing the landing assuming we actually touched down. You don't need to believe me here im done with this whole side of the debate. We've had 4 people explain that we get ***** offstage.

 

[Depster]

Honestly, 95% of all MK mains play the matchup wrong. Kansas has played Polt, Bwett, and me altogether a pretty good amount, and all Domo ever had to do before he quit was just sit at the ledge and wait to grab the ledge, SL, dtilt, or grab me when I was mid/low. And no, It's not because I'm a bad player, it's just almost impossible to recover from there as Yoshi. Btw, Domo wrecks Polt, just in case you guys wanted to talk about him again.

 

[Poltergust]

I've only played him once...

 

[Depster]

And he wrecked you lol

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

I've only played him once...

How'd that go?

 

[Poltergust]

I've forgotten the details, but I do remember he was playing way differently from Dojo (who I just beat earlier in the bracket). He was doing basically everything I just outlined to a really high degree, especially the "Tornado to punish landings" part.

 

[Deleted member]

O my god.

Honestly MKs, i know you like to believe that matchups you actually have to learn are close to even, but really they are not. People used to think snake beat MK too. Then Mks learned how to gimp snake easily.

Same with yoshi. Except yoshi has crappy punishes, cant land vs nado at all (cuz he doesnt have falling nades and up b), and you have run into something dumb to die (or get read out of egg lay).

There are probably quite a few MKs who are not as good a player as polt who would **** him.

He just gets the good ones that try to nado while yoshi is on the ground and dont know how to gimp yoshi.

SL doesn't completely **** yoshi but it is pretty nasty combined with his other gimping options.

Usmash makes this matchup winnable if they are dumb about it.

Depster stop meatriding kansas, worst state in da US :D

Yoshi lol

 

[Depster]

I've forgotten the details, but I do remember he was playing way differently from Dojo (who I just beat earlier in the bracket). He was doing basically everything I just outlined to a really high degree, especially the "Tornado to punish landings" part.

See what I mean fellas? 95% of MKs just don't know the matchup!

Lol Socks, but Kansas is pretty much the only state that knows the MU!

 

[AfroQT]

So we are agreed 95/5 Mk?

 

[Yikarur]

So we are agreed 95/5 Mk?

sounds good!

 

[Judo777]

Probably closer to 7/3ish

 

[Poltergust]

Uh... I thought we were not using ratios anymore? Let's go with the 9-tiered number system.

 

[Chuee]

-9 for Yoshi then.

 

[Judo777]

I think - 3 is reasonable. Strong disadvantage.

 

[Exdeath]

ITT: Sheik and Yoshi boards discussing the Yoshi vs. Meta Knight match-up.

 

[Deleted member]

See what I mean fellas? 95% of MKs just don't know the matchup!

Lol Socks, but Kansas is pretty much the only state that knows the MU!

No not really...
Players know matchups. not states.
stop meatriding

Matchup is prolly like -2 imo

 

[Judo777]

ITT: Sheik and Yoshi boards discussing the Yoshi vs. Meta Knight match-up.

<- knows a pretty large amount about yoshi and play the yoshi MK MU on a very regular basis.

 

[Depster]

No not really...
Players know matchups. not states.
stop meatriding

Matchup is prolly like -2 imo

You know what I mean >_>

I also agree with -2 as Yoshi. I actually don't think that MK is as hard as Lucario for us.

 

[Poltergust]

Yeah, the difference in difficulty between Lucario and every other character in the game is quite astounding. A -2 sounds logical for MK.

 

[Kaffei]

Kaffei, Yoshi's shield can take a full shield breaker from Marth with a full shield lol

Wtf i must test this
fully charged??? wtf

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Strongest shield in the game maaan.

I play my friend's Yoshi all the time and I can definitely say that through playing and observations the MU is -2. Not to say we're amazing players, but still.

 

[Player-4]

We don't need a ratio to strap on this MU, just more insight, keep on that

 

[OverLade]

Lets be real here for like 5 minutes yo.

O my god.

Honestly MKs, i know you like to believe that matchups you actually have to learn are close to even, but really they are not. People used to think snake beat MK too. Then Mks learned how to gimp snake easily.

MK doesn't easily gimp Snake. It's actually MK's superior ground game and juggle abilities why he wins the matchup.

Same with yoshi. Except yoshi has crappy punishes, cant land vs nado at all (cuz he doesnt have falling nades and up b), and you have run into something dumb to die (or get read out of egg lay).

Wtf? MK can't JUST NADO your landings. You can B reverse, and use Egg lay to stall your landings (works especially well with platforms) and of course use Nair or something to get through it. To avoid nair MK has to space his Tornado off to the side slightly, meaning that your B reverse mix up becomes more effective.

And YOU HAVE TO RUN INTO SOMETHING DUMB TO DIE? ARE YOU SERIOUS? CAN YOU SAY GRAB RELEASE TO FRESH USMASH?

There are probably quite a few MKs who are not as good a player as polt who would **** him.

He just gets the good ones that try to nado while yoshi is on the ground and dont know how to gimp yoshi.

And Polt has definitely beaten MKs who are superior players to him. Not dissin my man polt because he's a great player, but he's beaten MK's far superior to me and if it was JUST not knowing the matchup this kind of continued dominatinon wouldn't happen. This matchup is close.

SL doesn't completely **** yoshi but it is pretty nasty combined with his other gimping options.

Gtfo you can't gimp yoshi. Some players can just react to shuttle loop so you're only getting gimped if you get read. Plus his recovery is amazing so you're only dying from Shuttle loop if you don't DI (suck).

Usmash makes this matchup winnable if they are dumb about it.

Same principle with Nado. You can't just chase yoshi from below and get usmashes every time he obviously has mix ups. Aside from what previously mentioned, if you wait until the last possible second to Usmash, yoshi can Down B right before falling into your range. If he doesn't trade so what? The risk reward is in his favor given the speed of hip drop. Dashgrabbing/reverse grabbing his landings in the best opiton.

On a player vs player basis this is DEFINITELY one of MK's hardest matchups because you can't just exploit MK things, you have to actual legitly outplay and read the yoshi player, which isn't true of a lot of his matchups. Yoshi on the other hand has grab releases and projectiles, which are factors that **** regardless of actual player skill.

50/50 *****

edit:
Not serious with the 50/50 thing but I say 55-45 MK at worst probably. I will personally pick up Yoshi to prove this **** to you guys...

 

[Player-4]

****ing love Redhalberd

Realest *****, that post was nothin but real talk

/meatride

 

[Judo777]

Lets be real here for like 5 minutes yo.


MK doesn't easily gimp Snake. It's actually MK's superior ground game and juggle abilities why he wins the matchup.

Wtf? MK can't JUST NADO your landings. You can B reverse, and use Egg lay to stall your landings (works especially well with platforms) and of course use Nair or something to get through it. To avoid nair MK has to space his Tornado off to the side slightly, meaning that your B reverse mix up becomes more effective.

And YOU HAVE TO RUN INTO SOMETHING DUMB TO DIE? ARE YOU SERIOUS? CAN YOU SAY GRAB RELEASE TO FRESH USMASH?

And Polt has definitely beaten MKs who are superior players to him. Not dissin my man polt because he's a great player, but he's beaten MK's far superior to me and if it was JUST not knowing the matchup this kind of continued dominatinon wouldn't happen. This matchup is close.

Gtfo you can't gimp yoshi. Some players can just react to shuttle loop so you're only getting gimped if you get read. Plus his recovery is amazing so you're only dying from Shuttle loop if you don't DI (suck).

Same principle with Nado. You can't just chase yoshi from below and get usmashes every time he obviously has mix ups. Aside from what previously mentioned, if you wait until the last possible second to Usmash, yoshi can Down B right before falling into your range. If he doesn't trade so what? The risk reward is in his favor given the speed of hip drop. Dashgrabbing/reverse grabbing his landings in the best opiton.

On a player vs player basis this is DEFINITELY one of MK's hardest matchups because you can't just exploit MK things, you have to actual legitly outplay and read the yoshi player, which isn't true of a lot of his matchups. Yoshi on the other hand has grab releases and projectiles, which are factors that **** regardless of actual player skill.

50/50 *****

edit:
Not serious with the 50/50 thing but I say 55-45 MK at worst probably. I will personally pick up Yoshi to prove this **** to you guys...

Yoshi's b reverse egg lay is not something to hardly even be considered. You can punish it by waiting for it and walking EVERY TIME. Its so easy to do because egg lay has SOOOOO much cool down. If you run its even easier.

Comparing Polt to beating better player isn't fair either. Polt is expected to win because he knows the MK MU which isn't the case for the MK. So he should be going even with players better than him (and when he isn't its a description of the MU).

Man people crack me up yoshi is not hard to gimp with MK. MK has the typical RPS with yoshi that we have already described. For most chars its trying to footstool or grab him out of a heavy armor attempt, attack if he attacks, wait and punish the airdodge if he airdodges which MK can do even with his horrible airspeed.

The difference is the role SL plays. SL cover both his heavy armor AND attack in one option. So its a 50/50 for you with no risk each time. IF you bait the airdodge you can actually still SL him and even SL him the same direction he came from if he misspaced the dodge. If he spaces correctly he gets hit on stage. So now its figuring out if yoshi will spotdodge or not.If he doesn't SL will kill yoshi past 36%. If he does and you were wrong you get the ledge and ur safe.

Also nado totally ***** yoshis landings. B reverses are SOOOOOO easy to punish especially with MK. I wish Hades would tell you in our last set how many B reverses I DIDN'T punsih. I bet it was 0 because its soo easy if you look for it.

Yoshis grab is actually fairly spotdodgeable on reaction and ESPECIALLY egg lay.

 

[Poltergust]

Er, I don't think you can react to Yoshi's pivot-grab (10 frames), although I guess you could to his other ones.

 

[Judo777]

Er, I don't think you can react to Yoshi's pivot-grab (10 frames), although I guess you could to his other ones.

Yoshi can't go get you with his pivot grab. If you are standing still then pivot grabs aren't a big deal.

 

[Poltergust]

I wouldn't count them out. Pivot-grabs do provide some nice mix-up opportunities for approaches.

 

[Delta-cod]

Wtf? MK can't JUST NADO your landings. You can B reverse, and use Egg lay to stall your landings (works especially well with platforms) and of course use Nair or something to get through it. To avoid nair MK has to space his Tornado off to the side slightly, meaning that your B reverse mix up becomes more effective.

Yes he can. Yoshi has zero options to cover a MK that's waiting below him to Nado. Nothing hits below him to beat Nado except Down B, which gets beat out by mediocre Nado spacing. B reversals have end lag which get them punished by Nado. Egg Toss stalls are awful because of the MASSIVE DURATION of the move. If a MK can't REACT to an egg toss stall, he's bad. The move is like, 60 frames AND it keeps us in the air longer, so even if you jumped or whatever, you can land and reset your counter. It gets us some slight breathing room at best. Egg Toss stall is only best when recovering because in order to exert pressure on it MK has to spend 2-3 jumps and chase you far out, giving you more room between him and the stage.

Nair has practically no vertical range below. All MK has to do to juggle Yoshi is follow him on the ground and nado when he gets close. Hell, you can even jump up, Uair to bait something/hit us, THEN nado if you wanted. We have no options to punish Nado when landing, and a MK who does this well (Gunblade recently) makes me want to throw a controller.

And YOU HAVE TO RUN INTO SOMETHING DUMB TO DIE? ARE YOU SERIOUS? CAN YOU SAY GRAB RELEASE TO FRESH USMASH?

You either have to run into a pivot grab/Nado poorly to get Usmashed. If a MK plays safe, you won't kill him. I've had MKs live to like, 160% because they don't get grabbed and all I can do is jab/tilt them to reset spacing. Pivot grab is SO EASY to see coming. What else are we gonna do to block your transcendent priority, safe on block approaches? Fsmash? A mix up might work here and there, but they're not good for leading into kills and aren't NEARLY as rewarding as a CG.

And Polt has definitely beaten MKs who are superior players to him. Not dissin my man polt because he's a great player, but he's beaten MK's far superior to me and if it was JUST not knowing the matchup this kind of continued dominatinon wouldn't happen. This matchup is close.

No, it's not knowing the match up. I see MKs do stupid things against Yoshi all the time.

And as a counter example, I've had MKs who are inferior players to me beat me. No disrespect to some of them, but I do believe I'm a better player and I just end up getting ***** by MK, not the player. All a MK player has to do to beat Yoshi is think a little and know the easy counters to his options. And they ARE easy. The more a MK tries to do, the worse he ends up doing, I've found.

Gtfo you can't gimp yoshi. Some players can just react to shuttle loop so you're only getting gimped if you get read. Plus his recovery is amazing so you're only dying from Shuttle loop if you don't DI (suck).

Yo, that recovery without a Double Jump is amazing. Did you SEE all the height he got off that Up B? Broken **** right there.

MK's SL effectively makes us afraid to abuse what makes our recovery good: DJ flexibility. With a move that knocks us out of it at extremely low percentages, covers a lot of space, AND is safe to use, we can't use our typical RPS of options: Armor, Attack, Air Dodge. Instead, we're limited to: Air Dodge or Risk Getting gimped by an early SL.

The Risk/Reward is MASSIVELY disproportional.

Same principle with Nado. You can't just chase yoshi from below and get usmashes every time he obviously has mix ups. Aside from what previously mentioned, if you wait until the last possible second to Usmash, yoshi can Down B right before falling into your range. If he doesn't trade so what? The risk reward is in his favor given the speed of hip drop. Dashgrabbing/reverse grabbing his landings in the best opiton.

Why is MK upsmashing an airborne Yoshi? Or at all? O.o

On a player vs player basis this is DEFINITELY one of MK's hardest matchups because you can't just exploit MK things, you have to actual legitly outplay and read the yoshi player, which isn't true of a lot of his matchups. Yoshi on the other hand has grab releases and projectiles, which are factors that **** regardless of actual player skill.

Sorta true. You don't abuse normal MK things. Instead, you learn the easy Yoshi specific things and **** him with that. But since we're talking about the MU being played correctly on both ends, the confusion should be taken away and MK should be abusing the hell out of Yoshi. Thus, Yoshi gets *****.

edit:
Not serious with the 50/50 thing but I say 55-45 MK at worst probably. I will personally pick up Yoshi to prove this **** to you guys...

If you do that and come to Tristate and do well Yoshi only, I will take back everything I have ever said about this match up. Ever.

Er, I don't think you can react to Yoshi's pivot-grab (10 frames), although I guess you could to his other ones.

But there's no need to react because the option is really obvious. There are some mixups you can do with it, but it's really not an option that's hard to see coming.

 

[Poltergust]

But there's no need to react because the option is really obvious. There are some mixups you can do with it, but it's really not an option that's hard to see coming.

I was talking about reacting, not reading.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Lets be real here for like 5 minutes yo.

Wtf? MK can't JUST NADO your landings. You can B reverse, and use Egg lay to stall your landings (works especially well with platforms) and of course use Nair or something to get through it. To avoid nair MK has to space his Tornado off to the side slightly, meaning that your B reverse mix up becomes more effective.

Yes he can ._. I watched one of your games with polt. This was from like July last year but still. From what i say the only times you nado'd was when he was Standing still, on the other side of the stage, more than comfortable enough to either beat it out straight up or Shield and then beat it out.

Judo said it but B reverse egglays are not that good here. Especially if you know we can do it. You can punish those on reaction more or less. And after a while off of pure prediction.

We cannot stall with egglay. You probably mean eggtoss and we should NEVER eggtoss above you because that is exactly 54 frames we can't do anything and the egg couldn't have hit you in the first place. You also in this set never actually tried to cover a landing. You followed him to the top of the stage usually and went for an upair. Dumb idea. We can easily get down if you're doing stuff like that.

And YOU HAVE TO RUN INTO SOMETHING DUMB TO DIE? ARE YOU SERIOUS? CAN YOU SAY GRAB RELEASE TO FRESH USMASH?

You ran into the grab didn't you? In the same game you getting grabbed was due to bad spacing on your part. Abuse that diagonal up Weak point by his nose.

And Polt has definitely beaten MKs who are superior players to him. Not dissin my man polt because he's a great player, but he's beaten MK's far superior to me and if it was JUST not knowing the matchup this kind of continued dominatinon wouldn't happen. This matchup is close.

Who were some of those MK's? Only one i recall was Anti. And lets be real for like 5 seconds. Anti had no idea what was going on. I mean this matchup is close in the sense that i'd take MK over lucario any day. Its still really difficult when the other guy knows what he's doing. Yoshi's are expected to know this Matchup. Meta Knight isn't. At some tournament polt was at (Not even bashing polt here he's just like legit the only yoshi i've seen on stream) some of the commentators were like "Wtf is this grab release stuff actually legit?"

Gtfo you can't gimp yoshi.

I was skeptical about reading on after that.

Some players can just react to shuttle loop so you're only getting gimped if you get read. Plus his recovery is amazing so you're only dying from Shuttle loop if you don't DI (suck).

See the thing here is i don't see why you guys are talking about gimping. We can actually get gimped with a semi decent read which isn't
hard considering how linear shuttle loop makes our recovery if you guys use it right, but we aren't talking about that. We're talking about not getting back to the stage without taking like 60%.

You weren't edge guarding polt right in that game either btw. You were too afraid of something. You also missed some pretty easy ledge hogs (that probably wouldn't have lead to a kill with his extra eggtoss but would have at least tacked on an extra nair.)

Same principle with Nado. You can't just chase yoshi from below and get usmashes every time he obviously has mix ups. Aside from what previously mentioned, if you wait until the last possible second to Usmash, yoshi can Down B right before falling into your range. If he doesn't trade so what? The risk reward is in his favor given the speed of hip drop. Dashgrabbing/reverse grabbing his landings in the best opiton.

Well don't upsmash. If you didn't you could have done something else to send us back up. Down b'ing to the ground under most circumstances is a dumb idea if MK is grounded. You gave a pretty dumb example real talk. You named like the only time when down b'ing to the ground while you're down would be a good idea. Even then i'd probably AD away and get a free grab.

The thing with nado is if you space it properly we kinda just have to try to avoid it. We aren't beating it out, we aren't DJing through it because we dont have one and we can't AD because you'd get us either before or after the invincible frames are up. We could nair dair or Down B you if we go down the middle but if you clip us with the sides we're just gonna get popped back up. Which sets up a salty runback of the same situation.

On a player vs player basis this is DEFINITELY one of MK's hardest matchups because you can't just exploit MK things, you have to actual legitly outplay and read the yoshi player, which isn't true of a lot of his matchups. Yoshi on the other hand has grab releases and projectiles, which are factors that **** regardless of actual player skill.

So its a hard matchup because you actually have to play? Interesting. It gets a lot easier if you know what you're doing. You also have a lot of leeway with the reading thing. Once you show us that with one of your moves we only have 1 option to get away without %'s, we tend to go for that option a lot more. We have to read you a lot more than you have to do to us.

65:45, -2 whatever P 4 apparently doesn't even want a ratio.

Yoshi's Free

Edit: btw i was looking at this game http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2YTM0y0a4M

Anything newer or better i can use for reference?

 

[Delta-cod]

I was talking about reacting, not reading.

And I said there's no reason to react since it's a very readable option and you should never have to react to it.

Naturally I'm exaggerating a bit, but it really isn't as threatening as we'd like.

 

[Poltergust]

I think you're missing the point, Delta.

 

[Player-4]

Lol ratios don't win you the MU

Honestly I only like terms like "advantage", "slight advantage", "even", etc. but it doesn't really matter

 

[Poltergust]

Uh... the number system is exactly that, P4.

 

[Judo777]

I wouldn't count them out. Pivot-grabs do provide some nice mix-up opportunities for approaches.

Oh no no no I'm am not by any means saying pivot grab isn't very useful as a mixup option its a good option. I'm just saying that its use is primarily for defensive and mixup option and not much of a staple offensive move.

Ganons flame choke is a decent mixup option (at least for him) but its still not what you worry about (granted I'm not trying to compare yoshis good pivot grab to flame choke, I'm just using it to illustrate my point)

 

[Poltergust]

The thing is, it's a mix-up option that can kill you because of the CG -> up-smash. It can indeed become a threat once you reach 125% or so.

(Incidentally, Ganondorf can Flame Choke Yoshi into a jab/f-tilt/d-tilt/iDA, so it actually is a little worrisome. )

 

[Player-4]

Uh... the number system is exactly that, P4.

No Polt... It's not the same.

 

[Poltergust]

Well, numbers are basically shorthand for what you just wrote.

+2: Advantage
+1: Slight Advantage
0: Even

The number system was created because there was ambiguity in making match-up ratios; someone's 60-40 could be exactly the same as another person's 55-45 or 70-30. With numbers, at least the meaning behind each number is set in stone.