Meta Knight

[Commander]

We've been saying that for a majority of this thread.

All I saw was nerfs. It is impossible to tell what MK's power will be before anyone actually plays the game so speaking of nerfs doesn't seem like it would balance him at all because there are so many different factors that effect ow good a character is and the majority depends on how they move in the physics of the game compared to all the other characters. We don't know how he would move about in Smash4.

 

[Pheta Ray]

Most of this thread has been dedicated to talking about what minor nerfs Meta Knight would need along with what major buffs the other characters would need. But I don't think Sakurai is too bent on making every character A tier material, nor is he interested in tiers at all. Having buffs along with the nerfs that are needed to balance the game is something that is best for Smash 4.

 

[Xyro77]

I pray to every god I've found on google each night so that maybe just one of them will do 1 of 2 things in smash 4.


1. Prevent MK from being in the game.

2. If he is in the game, take away his sword and wings.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Yo boys and girls, just checking in and saving this spot for future use in case it is necessary. Love ya'll

 

[MasterOfKnees]

I pray to every god I've found on google each night so that maybe just one of them will do 1 of 2 things in smash 4.


1. Prevent MK from being in the game.

2. If he is in the game, take away his sword and wings.

Might aswell give that up

He's probably going to be hit hard by the nerfhammer though, so it's not going to matter either way. You can then pray to have important parts removed from whoever is going to S Tier in Smash 4.

 

[Xyro77]

Might aswell give that up

He's probably going to be hit hard by the nerfhammer though, so it's not going to matter either way. You can then pray to have important parts removed from whoever is going to S Tier in Smash 4.

as long as that S tier character can be counter picked by stage or by character, its all good. Mk never could.

 

[ぱみゅ]

YI:M.

 

[CombatScouter]

So I've been thinking of some new moves they could give Meta knight, and here's what I came up with:

Neutral Special - Sword Beam: Self explanatory. I'm thinking it would be a charging move, but I'm not sure what specific type; it could charge over time like Wario's fart or R.O.B's laser, charge and store like Samus and Donkey Kong's respective B moves, or maybe have two stages of power like Zero Suit Samus's B move. Perhaps the Beam could be angled diagonally upwards/downwards when fired in the air?

I haven't decided whether the beam should take the shape of a crescent, or the blade of a sword. If the beam charges like ZSS's, I think the weaker shot should be the latter, while the stronger shot the former.

Down Air - Condor Dive: Meta Knight dives headfirst into the ground diagonally, leaving a very small shock wave. Perhaps this move could have a fair bit of ending lag, and maybe pop him in the air? Maybe it could be angled straight down as well, like Down Thrust in Project M. Speaking of which...

Down Air - Down Thrust: An alternative to the Condor Dive. I imagine this move working similar to how it does in Project M, but maybe without the option to angle it diagonally because Meta Knight can't actually control it like that in Kirby games. However, the inclusion of the variable angle could be looked at as mixing the Condor Dive and Down Thrust into one move, and I like that.

Forward Air - Meta Chop: Meta Knight slices the air in a downward motion. I think this could be a decent KO move -- perhaps with a meteor effect? That may be too powerful on a character like Meta Knight.

Side Special - Meta Quick: Meta Knight stands and charges for a few seconds. When done, he gains a speed boost that last a short time. Perhaps this could compensate for a nerf to his overall speed?

Alternative: This move gains charge depending on the amount of damage (or combos?) you deal out. After all, that's pretty much how it works in Super Star Ultra.

Final Smash - Mach Tornado: Same as in Super Star Ultra.


I didn't go too in-depth with anything, but I'm just throwing ideas around.

 

[Pheta Ray]

So long as we bring back our favorite Shuttle Loop I'll be perfectly content. Unless he gets a down air similar to Sonic/ZSS.

 

[CombatScouter]

So long as we bring back our favorite Shuttle Loop I'll be perfectly content. Unless he gets a down air similar to Sonic/ZSS.

I'm positive Shuttle Loop is coming back, as in Return to Dreamland he had a unique Shuttle Loop that worked more or less the same as it did in Brawl. I'd say it's a staple of his moveset now.

 

[Angiance]

Balancing Meta Knight

#1: Make the hitboxes of some of his attacks non-transcendent

#2: Make F-Tilt's start-up 9 frames, and D-Tilt's start-up 5 frames

#3: Increase D-Smash's afterlag

#4: Mach Tornado is the same as Tornado Kirby (Tornado Kirby wrecks bosses/stages), definitely better off as an FS

#5: Increase U-Air's start-up to 2 frames, also increase U-Air's endlag; increase N-Air's endlag

#6: Decrease the height of his 3rd-5th jump

#7: Decrease the invincibility frames of his airdodge

 

[ぱみゅ]

I would be ok with 3 and 4.
1, 2 and 5 would be unnecessary imo.
As for 6, the jump height isn't that much anyway.
And as for 7, iirc his airdodge is pretty much the same as everyone else's, I think the invincibility starts like 1 frame earlier.

 

[Angiance]

Well, me (as Pika) being able to clash with, say, MK's F-Tilt using my F-Tilt would be pretty nice, instead of having to shield/go around

His tilts coming out on frame 3 is unnecessary, especially considering F-Tilt hits three times

U-Air is absurdly fast, why not slow it down?

 

[ぱみゅ]

To me, as a MK, it is a pain not to be able to deal with Pikachuu's Thunder jolts with anything but shield.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

MK could either:

1. Stay the same but make him the absolute lightest in the game. It fits him since he's always been that type of character when playable.

2. Keep the fast attacks, nerf the killing potential of his aerials. I mean Samus ' Nair can't even kill at 250, so I'm sure they could redesign his hit boxes to be more combo oriented instead of killing. This would mean that MK would have to go through great lengths to secure a kill .

 

[Angiance]

MK could either:

1. Stay the same but make him the absolute lightest in the game. It fits him since he's always been that type of character when playable.

2. Keep the fast attacks, nerf the killing potential of his aerials. I mean Samus ' Nair can't even kill at 250, so I'm sure they could redesign his hit boxes to be more combo oriented instead of killing. This would mean that MK would have to go through great lengths to secure a kill .

Someone else actually had the idea of making all the other characters = to MK instead of dropping MK's speed. Not a bad idear

 

[ぱみゅ]

Making every character better makes things silly on the long run (I mean, look at B- and P:M).
Make him unable to kill (and more difficult gimps) and he's done IMO.

 

[Angiance]

Well, speedy characters like Pikachu and Meta Knight having to consistantly KEEP the speed up to PUSH the opponent into the blastzone via combo is a great idea too

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Shuttle Loop will stay, as someone mentioned earlier, it's also his move in Return to Dreamland.

Fun fact: Shuttle Loop was originally a move from Kirby and not MK. He could perform it when he had the Wings power in Kirby Super Star. MK basically borrowed it from Kirby in Brawl and made it his own.

 

[Oblivion129]

Guys, why nerf MK when they can buff everyone else? I mean, Sakurai is already doing that. Did you see Diddy's arms? http://imgur.com/OvJA1li
I don't think MK should change his moves, only add delay where it is needed if it is needed.

That's just my opinion, though. He's my favorite character since before brawl and I want him to be usable in sm4sh.

 

[Karaoke Man]

Tbh, he needs to be more similar to how he is in the Kirby series. Like "Kirby's Return to Dreamland" for example

We all know his sword is super quick. With that being said, why the **** is that thing so strong? It doesn't even have that much knockback in the Kirby games. Like.... At all.

Shuttle Loop is also pretty ridiculous. Not only cause' it has invulnerabilty frames, but because Shuttle Loop never accended Wing Kirby nor MK that high to begin with. Plus, he has this Glide attack that can legit cut through explosives and practically go completely unharmed through all of it.

I'm not even gonna' go through tornado lol. That probably needs to be nerfed more than anything. It wasn't supposed to be that good.

but yeah, the strength/knockback of like.... all of his moves needs a huuuuuuge nerf. That invulernerabilty on the Shuttle Loop has gotta' go too

 

[FooltheFlames]

Just wait and watch when Sucker Eye trolls us AGAIN when Butterknife gets a major buff lol.

 

[ToothiestAura]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but it seems like steps may be being taken to make Meta Knight less of a monster. (Even if he's yet to have been revealed.)
Sakurai stated in a recent update that infinite combos are no longer a part of Smash, meaning Meta Knight's combo which could rack up serious damage quickly will no longer be present. Of course, it wasn't necessarily a change that referred to Meta Knight (as other characters have trapping combos too). It just made me think of Meta Knight. And it also shows that Sakurai is at least looking into controlling the power of some characters.

Obviously, Meta Knight needs a lot more than the absence of his infinite combo to make him more acceptably powerful. MK has many other ways of racking up damage. Changing his multi-hit aerials to single hit aerials would help a good deal in that regard as well. And decreasing the priority on his Specials or at least decreasing their duration would be nice. Actually giving his Mach Tornado stale move negation would also be helpful (so racking up damage with it would be less easy) or make MK get dizzy/vulnerable if Mach Tornado is used repeatedly could help a bit as well.

 

[Pacack]

Hey, Meta Knight fans! I'm working on a project that you might have heard of called Project: Thank You Sakurai! (If you haven't heard of it, you should check it out.) and I'm currently doing a poll to determine which characters should be on the virtual card that we're making for him. I would appreciate it if you guys would check it out here and vote for who you like. Meta Knight is definitely making it on the card, but there's also a Kirby series section that includes other characters from the series that really needs some more votes. I'd really really be grateful to see you guys voting on that at the very least

 

[ぱみゅ]

I wasn't aware of MK's infinite combo (that doesn't involve items).

Tornado Nerfs are 90% if what he needs to be balanced yet good.

 

[Chandeelure]

I'm tired of waiting!

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

Ok meta knight is a lock now for returning

Past stages are coming back from both brawl and melee and halberd is one of them so with meta knights ship as a stage its a no brainer meta knight is back

 

[Thor]

Sakurai stated in a recent update that infinite combos are no longer a part of Smash, meaning Meta Knight's combo which could rack up serious damage quickly will no longer be present.

He doesn't have infinites. Uair string to nado off the top is a zero-death, but not infinite by any stretch, and his jab lock is garbage (I don't think he can use his ftilt to lock). I assume he referred to Dedede, ICs, and to a lesser extent Pikachu (who has zero-deaths and a (non-jab) lock, but they are far more guaranteed than MK strings).

Actually giving his Mach Tornado stale move negation would also be helpful (so racking up damage with it would be less easy) or make MK get dizzy/vulnerable if Mach Tornado is used repeatedly could help a bit as well.

This is not an attack on you, but the first part is a genuninely terrible idea, because one nado would destale ALL KO moves, which would truly be a buff to MK (even if the nado goes to 0% when stale, many would not mind the exchange because they can dsmash and nair even more without worry, just nado and you can then KO with those moves). The dizziness thing is interesting but it seems like a fix to how the tornado operates would be better. I suggest transcdent priority on the tornado (to make piercing it easier - Mario fireballs?), and while I'm making stuff up that won't happen, a really cool property - the first hit of a tornado as it contacts a player (so it could be the very last hit if the player touches it right at the end) does not flinch the character, so you can safely bair a tornado as Fox in exchange for 1 or 2% - but if they don't react they still eat tornado damage. Actually my original idea of "Just make tornado SDIable and maybe a small increase in endlag" would seem just fine, but maybe it's insufficient.

I made a changelist earlier I thought would help (page 5, I referenced it above). I don't think slowing MK down in the uair or dsmash department is the solution - I think an angle adjustment on dsmash and a decrease in uair damage is better. Shuttle Loop also needs an angle adjustment (45 degrees air or ground in my opinion) and I think I said nair needs a knockback growth nerf. There was other stuff, but I'm not sure it matters much (it got a single like, so it must've been pretty lame).

I don't find MK's long recovery to be exceptionally problematic, and since they removed Pit's ability to glide I think MK will lose that too. I understand MK had the best gimping ability, but it wasn't exactly easy in Brawl vs non-terrible recoveries. Doable, but not nearly so automatic as in Melee (which wasn't automatic either, but it had flow charts, so to speak - most characters had far more mixup options in Brawl than in Melee, while nearly everyone in Melee could edgeguard 80+% of the cast fairly easily).

Brawl- is awesome, kyokoro_pamuyo. It just takes some time to learn and appreciate because we've been accustomed to Brawl and Melee and 64 (if that were the first game to come out, people would've been fine with it - Falco's a bird, Ganondorf is really strong, Zelda has awesome magic, Sheik's a ninja, Kirby is Kirby... Fox would've definitely been a "Huh?" character but that's because of what they did with him...) It's seen as super silly because so many people just use it for FFAs.

I really want MK in the new game.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Uair damage reduction wouldn't work if it doesn't have a base knockback increase (it would combo stupidly easy otherwise).
And Dsmash doesn't really need an angle correction (the angle is alright, and as long as you expect it, you can react to the hit confirm and Di just fine).

As for everything else, it sounds nice (Balanced Brawl actually did the Aerial Shuttle Loop angle and knockback change).


And I'm not saying B- is bad, just that it's silly.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

So with my personal favorite Smash stage ever returning, that of course being the Halberd, the stage is set for the masked king of Brawl's return. After seeing what Sakurai has done with other veterans I'm really interested in seeing what he has done with Meta Knight. If Pit and Charizard are anything to go by, the gliding mechanic is completely cut, so that right there is already quite the nerf, and I'm interested in seeing if he'll get an entirely new Up-B or if it simply won't transition into a glide, hoping for the former personally. I can also see his Side-B possibly being turned into something totally different, it seems that there's quite an emphasis on making characters more faithful to their original counterparts, and since Drill Rush is a move completely original to Smash it could be changed in favor of something else. I'm also expecting a Final Smash revamp, going from the generic 40% cut to the Killer Double Mach Tornadoes of Death from Kirby Super Star Ultra.

Either way, with Ridley out of the picture Meta Knight is the character I'm looking most forward to seeing now. I can only imagine how great he'll look in full HD. Once he's revealed I'll probably drop quickly in from my hiatus to express some of my hype for our swordsman.

 

[Wyoming]

Could see the Halberd being shown in the Direct as the baby steps of announcing Meta Knight. Especially since that on April 24th NES Remix 2 is out in Japan and the collection includes Kirby's Adventure, his debut appearance. Thursday is also a popular day for character reveals...

 

[TumblrFamous]

Here's a question. The Gliding Mechanic is cut. What will this mean for Meta Knight?

 

[ProjectAngel]

Here's a question. The Gliding Mechanic is cut. What will this mean for Meta Knight?

It's a serious nerf for MK's near-godlike air game.

 

[ぱみゅ]

It's not too bad on-stage.
He might get a new Up-Special (just as Pit did) to make up for it.


That is, if Gliding was completely cut off from the game, so far only Pit's was confirmed to be removed.

 

[Thor]

Uair damage reduction wouldn't work if it doesn't have a base knockback increase (it would combo stupidly easy otherwise).
And Dsmash doesn't really need an angle correction (the angle is alright, and as long as you expect it, you can react to the hit confirm and Di just fine).

As for everything else, it sounds nice (Balanced Brawl actually did the Aerial Shuttle Loop angle and knockback change).


And I'm not saying B- is bad, just that it's silly.

The uair thing also entailed a base knockback boost, I just forgot about it. Or else not, but it's nerfed to like 3% so that 5 uairs + stale move negation = ~12%, which will drain all his jumps - that's equal to like a Samus nair or something, which isn't too bad (someone can disagree but that's not that much damage), and yes he might be able to follow up with nair at the end, but he could do that off 1 uair (so I guess base knockback growth might be a solution then...). The base knockback growth would help for KOs off the top, but that's not necessarily a bad thing... strategic positioning and such. The angle adjustment on dsmash is so that dsmash near the sides struggles to KO a bit more (can DI so it's mostly vertical knockback) and such - they need to land an fsmash for that.

I had also suggested a (slight) increase in knockback scaling for fsmash. And a fixed usmash (make it so that announcers on stream don't say "Oh, input error" when someone usmashs - it doesn't have to be great, but usmash having a small use is not a bad thing).

B- is only silly relative to the rest of the games, although I guess since all silliness is relative you're correct in your own mind.

 

[Oblivion129]

If gliding is cut, MK's UpB could change, and that would be enough of a nerf already. Most characters are getting buffs from what I've seen, even Diddy. Give MK a better Upsmash, more ending lag on Dsmash, and that's it, ready for Smash 4.

By the way, is Meta Knight going to appear in Kirby Triple Deluxe? I haven't see him at all in trailers.

 

[OctiVick]

By the way, is Meta Knight going to appear in Kirby Triple Deluxe? I haven't see him at all in trailers.

Not really, only his shadow doppelganger from Amazing Mirror dose.

 

[CombatScouter]

I doubt anybody else really cares, but there are a few changes to Meta Knight's physical appearance that I'd like. For instance, an actual strap for his mask would be nice, in addition to a sheath for his sword.

Spoiler

I'm also partial to his teal/turquoise collar, but grey is fine as well.

 

[Swift Fox]

https://twitter.com/Sora_Sakurai/status/460105372208885760

おーっと、今日はカービィ誕生22周年ですか。気がつかなかった。 お祝いコメントをくれた方、ありがとうございます。 私の人生としてはほぼ折り返し。こんなに遠い昔の話なのに、ついこの前のように感じることもあります。

Whoops, my 22 birthday anniversary Kirby today. Did not notice. The person who gave me a celebration comment, thank you. Is folded back almost as my life. Sometimes though it is a story of the old days so far, and feel as before with this.

So he is aware of Kirby's 22nd anniversary, which is tomorrow (today in Japan) and that which is on weekend. Do you think we'll see Meta Knight on Monday?

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Kirby Triple Deluxe comes out next week in the Americas, perhaps a Meta Knight confirmation is in order for next friday?