Meta Knight

[Funkmasterblitz]

MK is light and can be grab released into crap by a few characters. But yeah, nothing very crippling.

 

[DukeofShorts]

I hope Meta Knight gets redesigned so he looks like he did in Return to Dreamland—simpler colours and less evil-looking. Although I do like his cape.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

I hope Meta Knight gets redesigned so he looks like he did in Return to Dreamland—simpler colours and less evil-looking. Although I do like his cape.

At most they'll probably give him his real feet instead of giving him some kind of iron boots. Otherwise I've always loved how Meta Knight and Dedede look in Brawl, where as they look a bit too fluffy and cute in Return to Dreamland. Of course they'll be getting more saturated colors which is awesome, but I don't feel that they need to give them much of a model upgrade.

 

[Lemonwater]

My changes I'd make to MK:

-Tornado moves slower, doesn't last as long, and has less priority
-Increased ending lag on d-air, u-air, and d-smash
-Decrease his grab range a little bit
-Add a bit of starting lag to f-air
-Make each of his jumps a little lower

 

[MasterOfKnees]

My changes I'd make to MK:

-Tornado moves slower, doesn't last as long, and has less priority
-Increased ending lag on d-air, u-air, and d-smash
-Decrease his grab range a little bit
-Add a bit of starting lag to f-air
-Make each of his jumps a little lower

I actually like all of these changes, because they nerf him but don't change his moveset. I love Meta Knight's moveset, I just hate how they went all out with the numbers and his overall speed and gimp-potential. Though I think he'd need a bit more nerfs on top of this too, probably change the angle in which the opponent flies from being hit by d-air too, to make it a less successful gimping tool.

 

[Viceversa96]

That just means he's more of a secondary character for you. That's not really weird.

As for MK, nerfing him will be quite a project. For starters, they'd have to nerf his Special Moves. Dimensional Cape and Drill Rush are fine as is, in my opinion, so it comes down to the other two.

Mach Tornado: This needs to be heavily nerfed somehow. The way I can think of for nerfing it would be to down the priority significantly, so that more attacks can hit him out of it, and make it so that once he starts to move in one direction, it will be very difficult to stop momentum to move in the other direction. Honestly, that's the best I can think of.

Shuttle Loop: The speed of Shuttle Loop is fine, as is its power. What needs to change is the knockback of the aerial Shuttle Loop. Rather than give it powerful horizontal knockback, it should have the same knockback at a grounded Shuttle Loop.

Any thoughts or critiques?

Or they can do something similar to what Project M did.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Or they can do something similar to what Project M did.

That too. Just remember my post precedes Project M.

 

[Ghostbone]

Reasons why MK's possibly too strong in Brawl

1. He doesn't suffer from RCO lag on any of his specials. Whereas character's like Marth and Falco have to deal with RCO lag when they ledge snap with their specials, MK suffers from no such drawback, making getting back on the stage unpunished way easier.
2. Up-b has stupid levels of base knocback, killing people on the side of the stage at percents as low 80, which is stupid considering its speed, and the fact he can attack and glide out of it. It plainly just, shouldn't kill like that. At 160%? Sure
Grounded up-b being autocanceleable just by fast falling as soon as you can is also silly, it should have landing lag (really glide attack should have landing lag too, but it's shield grabable already so it's not that big of a deal)
3. Tornado beats out so many moves because of its refreshing hitbox. It makes sense as a shield pressure move when their shield gets low from your aerial pressure. It's also basically the best move at punishing landings in the game because of how much space he can cover with it. It's generally a balanced move in the ditto, because MK's aerials are transcendent allowing tornado to be beaten out on the approach. If any move could beat out tornado in the same way (so if tornado had transcendent priority), it wouldn't so heavily polarise many of MK's matchups.
4. Ledge mechanics in brawl are dumb in general, MK is the best abuser of them. How the game should work is that your ledge invincibility decreases every time you grab the ledge until you land on stage (not on a platform) Planking isn't a fault of MK's specifically though, hopefully next smash fixes ledge mechanics (hey Ike had a limit to how many times he can up-b on the ledge, so obviously Sakurai at least anticipated ledge camping...somewhat)
5. Best air-dodge in the game. I don't know why air-dodges aren't standardised, but for some reason MK's invincibility starts a frame earlier (and lasts till the same point as other air-dodges, he doesn't have more lag). That should be standardised.

He doesn't need any heavy nerfs. Nerfing all the top tiers into trash tier is just bad game design, everyone should be buffed up to his level. Up-b and Tornado needs nerfs, RCO lag shouldn't exist (but if it does, MK should have it), but that's all the changes he would need to be balanced. He also doesn't care as much about stale moves as some characters, since D-smash, Nair and up-b (aerial or grounded) all work as kill moves, in an environment where knockback doesn't decrease when a move's stale, like in Melee, that's one less advantage for MK.

Of course, none of these necessarily apply in Smash4, we have to wait to see what the game physics are like. If falling speed is increased like is rumoured, while the brawl air-dodge remains, juggling will barely exist in the next game, and MK relies on his aerial frame traps, so he may be heavily nerfed just because of that change in game physics. Similarly, if hitstun cancelling doesn't exist, MK won't be able to abuse the fact he has the fastest momentum cancel in the game (uair > DJ > possibly more DJs), another nerf.

Edit: People saying to take away his transcendent priority, that would be a buff to all his aerials. It's also MetaKnight's unique trait, it'd be a shame if they took it away.

 

[BaPr]

Reasons why MK's possibly too strong in Brawl

1. He doesn't suffer from RCO lag on any of his specials. Whereas character's like Marth and Falco have to deal with RCO lag when they ledge snap with their specials, MK suffers from no such drawback, making getting back on the stage unpunished way easier.
2. Up-b has stupid levels of base knocback, killing people on the side of the stage at percents as low 80, which is stupid considering its speed, and the fact he can attack and glide out of it. It plainly just, shouldn't kill like that. At 160%? Sure
Grounded up-b being autocanceleable just by fast falling as soon as you can is also silly, it should have landing lag (really glide attack should have landing lag too, but it's shield grabable already so it's not that big of a deal)
3. Tornado beats out so many moves because of its refreshing hitbox. It makes sense as a shield pressure move when their shield gets low from your aerial pressure. It's also basically the best move at punishing landings in the game because of how much space he can cover with it. It's generally a balanced move in the ditto, because MK's aerials are transcendent allowing tornado to be beaten out on the approach. If any move could beat out tornado in the same way (so if tornado had transcendent priority), it wouldn't so heavily polarise many of MK's matchups.
4. Ledge mechanics in brawl are dumb in general, MK is the best abuser of them. How the game should work is that your ledge invincibility decreases every time you grab the ledge until you land on stage (not on a platform) Planking isn't a fault of MK's specifically though, hopefully next smash fixes ledge mechanics (hey Ike had a limit to how many times he can up-b on the ledge, so obviously Sakurai at least anticipated ledge camping...somewhat)
5. Best air-dodge in the game. I don't know why air-dodges aren't standardised, but for some reason MK's invincibility starts a frame earlier (and lasts till the same point as other air-dodges, he doesn't have more lag). That should be standardised.

Not gonna argue with this. I don't see any reason why when I agree. Meta knight is really OP.

He doesn't need any heavy nerfs. Nerfing all the top tiers into trash tier is just bad game design, everyone should be buffed up to his level. Up-b and Tornado needs nerfs, RCO lag shouldn't exist (but if it does, MK should have it), but that's all the changes he would need to be balanced. He also doesn't care as much about stale moves as some characters, since D-smash, Nair and up-b (aerial or grounded) all work as kill moves, in an environment where knockback doesn't decrease when a move's stale, like in Melee, that's one less advantage for MK.

I am unsettled by this. Why is Metaknight a top tier? Fast attacks, insane recoveries, great Momentum cancelling, high priority, fast and powerful KO moves, barely any start up/end lag, and other stuff. If all characters were like him, we'd have balance, but it would just be spam everywhere. Not saying I don't want other chars to be buffed, but not to Metaknight's level.

Of course, none of these necessarily apply in Smash4, we have to wait to see what the game physics are like. If falling speed is increased like is rumoured, while the brawl air-dodge remains, juggling will barely exist in the next game, and MK relies on his aerial frame traps, so he may be heavily nerfed just because of that change in game physics. Similarly, if hitstun cancelling doesn't exist, MK won't be able to abuse the fact he has the fastest momentum cancel in the game (uair > DJ > possibly more DJs), another nerf.

True, I guess we will have to wait

Edit: People saying to take away his transcendent priority, that would be a buff to all his aerials. It's also MetaKnight's unique trait, it'd be a shame if they took it away.

Not sure how taking away priority would buff his aerials, so could you explain that to me? Also, I think it would be best to hand that unique trait to chars who could actually benefit from it like the LoZ cast.

 

[SpaceJell0]

Meta Knight's speed and recovery fit his character so he shouldn't lose it. What I would do is give him less killing power in some, but not all, of his moves.

 

[BaPr]

Meta Knight's speed and recovery fit his character so he shouldn't lose it. What I would do is give him less killing power in some, but not all, of his moves.

Especially his Up B. That move is way too powerful IMO

Anyone else want Metaknight to have a Galacta knight colorscheme (with the way the mask opens).

 

[kesterstudios]

u should look at balanced brawl.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

u should look at balanced brawl.

I think it did a good job balancing him, but that's more so because they brought every other character up by a lot too. Meta Knight saw few but heavy nerfs in Balanced, which took him down to what would be high tier in Brawl, and that's where all the other characters are gathered anyways (except Jiggs who still sucks )

 

[Chandeelure]

*Perfect Metaknight for SM4SH!
-Nerf a lot in knockback his down smash and up b.
-His tornado need to be slower and with a lot more ending lag.
-Buff in knockback forward smash,side b and dimensional cape slash.
-Make him more light in weight.
-

 

[Angiance]

Meta Knight, having trance priority on 9O% of his moves, gives the impression that his slashes are faster than the speed of sound; as cool as that is, we can all agree that it'd be more fair as regular priority, Ex. as Pikachu, against Meta Knight's Glide Attack, I can N-Air through it, and hit Meta Knight; being able to clash with all of Meta Knight's moves, in itself, would make a MASSIVE difference in terms of balance. As for Mach Tornado; it's Meta Knight's Grand Finale, I honestly don't understand why it was based off of Tornado Kirby this time around (Tornado Kirby is actually ridiculous in any game it's in, as silly as that is).

 

[BaPr]

What are you talking about? Metaknight needs as many buffs as he can get!

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Meta Knight, having trance priority on 9O% of his moves, gives the impression that his slashes are faster than the speed of sound; as cool as that is, we can all agree that it'd be more fair as regular priority, Ex. as Pikachu, against Meta Knight's Glide Attack, I can N-Air through it, and hit Meta Knight; being able to clash with all of Meta Knight's moves, in itself, would make a MASSIVE difference in terms of balance. As for Mach Tornado; it's Meta Knight's Grand Finale, I honestly don't understand why it was based off of Tornado Kirby this time around (Tornado Kirby is actually ridiculous in any game it's in, as silly as that is).

The Mach Tornado acts much like it does his Kirby Super Star fight, just instead of going downwards like he does in Super Star he goes upwards. It basically is just a reverse Tornado ability.

I'd like to see his big Mach Tornado move from Metaknightmare Ultra become his new final smash though.

 

[Angiance]

Yes, I was thinking the exact same thing for Mach Tornado! It'd reach as high as Pikachu's Thunder.

 

[BaPr]

Yes, I was thinking the exact same thing for Mach Tornado! It'd reach as high as Pikachu's Thunder.

I never knew it went that high!

 

[Phan7om]

You know how Sheik went from Top Tier in Melee to Mid-Low Tier in Brawl just because some of her options were gone. The same could be done for MK.

• Give Shuttle Loop significantly less knockback
• Significantly decrease the priortity on Mach Tornado
• Cooldown on U-air so its about the same as D-air
• More startup on F-air, F-Tilt, D-Tilt,
• Nerf N-air

 

[Medaka444]

When a sequel is made, developers often overdo nerfing overpowered fighters, making them so weak they're nearly useless. Good thing that hasn't happened in SSB yet (except Kirby).

 

[MSmariosonic]

Just nerf MK a bit..and it will be great

 

[Thor]

Eh, my thoughts on this character (whom I actually like... so you may think I'm not doing much nerfing):

uair does 4% fully fresh, 3% if not fully fresh, 2% staled by about 6+ uses - make this move far less damaging. Leave frame data alone?
Make Tornado's knockback almost horizontal (so it can be DIed straight-horizontal) and add in extra SDI multiplier the later the Tornado is - makes it easier to SDI out later and reduces odds of off the top KOs (which were dumb, even if escapable). Lower knockback on it as well and add in 5 - 8 frames of ending lag - it should be more punishable at the end.
Don't weaken Dsmash too much - lower base knockback and % but not scaling, and make the angle a little more diagonal (by this I mean it sends a little less far total w/out DI then it did in Brawl w/out DI and it should then be less punishing when the surprise lands because the angle is less dangerous in terms of side blast-lines). Don't slow it down though.
An odd one but strengthen usmash - it should do 15% uncharged if all blows land - a minor recovery for what he loses.
Fsmash shouldn't get hit too much - minor reduction in damage output (12% - 18% for uncharged to charged)?
Shutltle Loop - just make this angle diagonal so it can be DIed nearly straight-up or almost fully horizontal - I'm not opposed to KOs with the move but the early KO potential was kind of silly. Maybe nerf knockback a bit but not too much.
Glide attack - same range, but 8% damage and about 83% knockback of Brawl.
Dair - slightly more ending lag so that it's harder to WoP. less damage (6% fresh, 5% if not fully fresh).
Not sure about most other moves...

Other ideas could also work, I just don't want to see MK make the transition that Kirby had from SSB to SSBM.

 

[DrMcNugget]

some of my thoughts

Metaknight:
- Tornado is SDI-able throughout the entire attack.
- More landing lag after tornado.
- Shuttle Loop always has vertical knockback. Making it harder to get low percent kills near the ledge.
- Down throw does less damage.
- Up tilt no longer has a sweetspot hitbox.
- Up air now comes out on the same frame as down air
- Decreased knockback on Down Air.
- Down smash is a few frames slower.
- Down smash no longer has a tipper hitbox.
- Decreased knockback on Down Smash.

 

[Chandeelure]

some of my thoughts

Metaknight:
- Tornado is SDI-able throughout the entire attack.
- More landing lag after tornado.
- Shuttle Loop always has vertical knockback. Making it harder to get low percent kills near the ledge.
- Down throw does less damage.
- Up tilt no longer has a sweetspot hitbox.
- Up air now comes out on the same frame as down air
- Decreased knockback on Down Air.
- Down smash is a few frames slower.
- Down smash no longer has a tipper hitbox.
- Decreased knockback on Down Smash.

Well,we don't want garbage-knight ,so I think that he need that nerfs BUT this buffs :
-Stronger Forward smash (for some reason it is weaker and slower than down smash).
-Stronger Down B (This attack is garbage).

 

[SchAlternate]

Statistics aside, do you think Meta Knight should remain a starter or become an unlockable?

I think he should be unlockable. He just feels too mysterious to be a starter.

 

[-TAG-]

The only huge nerfs I see for Meta Knight is reducing his killing power and re-working Mach Tornado. He can keep his speed, its what makes Meta Knight unique. Taking his fast moves away would make him feel like a regular sword user. I guess some of the damage on his other moves can be adjusted as well, especially his Mach Tornado.

 

[grizby2]

someone should make a list of all nerfs/buffs given to meta knight that everyone agrees on so far.
so far ive heard:
- decrease shuttle loop knockback
- decrease D-smash knockback
+ increase side-Smash knockback
+ increase dimentional cape knockback


im definitely ok with those.


personally, I think his u-throw and d-throw should be different to set him more apart from Kirby.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Here's hoping that Sakurai reveals our masked knight for Halloween. You know, since he has a mask and all.

 

[JamesDNaux]

Nah, Meta Knight is too OP, he should be replaced with Metanite.

 

[TeamFlareZakk]

I agree Meta Knight should be nerfed, but you have to admit, he's pretty awesome to use, I just recently started using him again and I admit I love playing as him.

I prefer him over Kirby.

 

[Thor]

I'd miss MK feeling like MK if he was nerfed TOO much, but I'd hate to see another ban on him. My (superfluous?) ideas:

Change the angle Dsmash launches - missing DI should be less harsh on a Dsmash (like a 35 degree angle, not 10 degrees [exaggerating but I think you get the point, or else I somehow DI his dsmash to be extra lethal when I don't intend for that at all]). Can nerf knockback a bit I guess, mainly base.
Shuttle Loop should have 45 degree knockback so that up top it can be DI'd almost straight horizontal and off the sides it can be DI'd almost straight vertical - reduces early KO power but keeps it usable at high percents. Still reduce base knockback too (by about a 1/5?).
Boost knockback scaling of fsmash.
Boost knockback of cape - maybe KOs around 140% (on another MK)?
Nair should have less knockback - I'm okay with 19% (...maybe...) but lower knockback scaling for sure.
Mach Tornado should NOT hit less, but it should be easier to SDI - it should be a game of chasing SDI rather than just sucking someone in/reading where they obviously have to go - SDI through the tornado should be viable while only taking like 6 or 7%.
Uair should only do 5% fresh, and 4% if not totally fresh. Eventually should decline to 3% (after like 4-5 uses?)
Throws are fine. If you want to change a throw, uthrow would be easier to change (can't think of a dthrow), where MK tosses them up (like Falco except distance is really short) and hits with three upward jabs (still on ground) for 2% each, the final one having low-medium knockback and rather low scaling.
Drill Rush should be...changed. Somehow. Maybe like P:M, maybe not, but that move is not good, and MK shouldn't have a move where the announcers are like "OH TECH ERROR!" or whatever (I've never understood how to properly recover with it, so maybe someone can explain that to me...).

And if I'm too nice on MK, then swap MK's meteor cancel timing with Wolf's (only sort of kidding...).

 

[ShichibukaiJimbe]

MetaKnight was revealed i that early image along with Marth, GW and Wario, I'm sure it will be revealed soon

 

[Pheta Ray]

MetaKnight was revealed i that early image along with Marth, GW and Wario, I'm sure it will be revealed soon

I want to see the source on this.

Also, if they did everything Thor said, what would happen if they gave him a meteor smash or a spike move?

 

[SchAlternate]

I want to see the source on this.

He means the concept art:

Not that it truly confirms him, but there's still that.

 

[Pheta Ray]

All aboard the train for a buffed Metaknight.

 

[TranqJim]

i don't know about metaknight being announced i too would like a source for that piece of info

 

[Deleted member]

I just noticed something about that whiteboard pic.

That's Master Hand and Crazy Hand in the back, outstretched as if they were giving us a gift. (Master behind Marth, Blue Pikmin, Pit, etc., and Crazy behind Link, Wario, Sandbag, etc.)

Best example I could find of what I mean:

It's probably been said before, but whatever.

 

[Pheta Ray]

Bringing back old Master Hand and Crazy Hand, eh? I can't wait to see how they'll work.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I found out the new Kirby 3DS game is being released on January 11th in Japan. Seems like a good chance for a reveal don't you think?