Meta Knight

[jigglover]

He looks like a butterfly.

A butterfly with a christmas cracker!

 

[N3ON]

If MK's original design is not an available costume in the next Smash, I'll be sad:

BADASS.

I actually like that design alot. I'm not holding my breath for it to show up in Smash, but it's diverse enough from MK's final design that there might be a possibility it could show up as a unique character in a future Kirby game. Developers often like to go back and revisit old dropped elements/designs (though I won't be holding my breath for that either -- but I can hope, lol).

 

[Claire Diviner]

Developers often like to go back and revisit old dropped elements/designs (though I won't be holding my breath for that either -- but I can hope, lol).

Off topic a little bit, but look at Cloud of Darkness from Final Fantasy III:

Original Amano design:

NES in-game sprite:

DS/iOS in-game model:

Dissidia/Dissidia 012 design:

As you can see, Could of Darkness looked different in her original NES sprite, even though Yo****aka Amano's original concept was far different in design. I'm guessing maybe color and graphical limitations, but as a result, his design never saw the light of day until Tetsuya Nomura decided to use Amano's design to represent Cloud of Darkness's appearance for Dissidia. Who is to say they won't use Meta Knight's original concept as a costume idea, be it already available or as DLC for Smash 4?

 

[N3ON]

Off topic a little bit, but look at Cloud of Darkness from Final Fantasy III:

As you can see, Could of Darkness looked different in her original NES sprite, even though Yo****aka Amano's original concept was far different in design. I'm guessing maybe color and graphical limitations, but as a result, his design never saw the light of day until Tetsuya Nomura decided to use Amano's design to represent Cloud of Darkness's appearance for Dissidia. Who is to say they won't use Meta Knight's original concept as a costume idea, be it already available or as DLC for Smash 4?

Exactly, good point. I'm still not going to expect this design in Smash or anything, but it's not an impossibility, especially if Sakurai was behind this original design. Or if alternate outfits are widely used in SSB4, like you said, though I still think there's a much greater chance this design won't be used than will, considering I'd wager MK's alt costume (if he gets one) will probably be based on Galacta Knight.

 

[Master Knight DH]

Some easy fixes:
*Fireballs! AHAHAHAHAHAHA! Mach Tornado - change the KB reduction from stale move negation to be more set values. It's spammable because KB stays about the same, but more set value KB reduction will silence that as characters who do flinch minorly from the tornado won't be stunned again for a while. Once that is fixed, make the Tornado's startup a little faster. It's iffy otherwise.
*Giant Meteor! HERE IS TRUE POWER! Shuttle Loop - nothing too noticeable about it beyond punishing you for letting Meta Knight stay too close for extended periods.
*Drill Rush - if anything, tone down, but nothing noticeable, just make it less spammable. Not quite sure what to do.
*Dimensional Cape - yeah, definitely get rid of the IDC shenanigans. However, do make DC itself a little faster. I'm fine with Meta Knight being susceptible to counterattacks, but DC is just too slow to see decent use.

And as a whole, make it plausible to make use of defensive power or simple tanking to counteract Meta Knight's shenanigans.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Meta Knight recolors...

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[SmashShadow]

When was drill rush spamable?

 

[Claire Diviner]

When was drill rush spamable?

^ This.

Some easy fixes:
*Fireballs! AHAHAHAHAHAHA! Mach Tornado - change the KB reduction from stale move negation to be more set values. It's spammable because KB stays about the same, but more set value KB reduction will silence that as characters who do flinch minorly from the tornado won't be stunned again for a while. Once that is fixed, make the Tornado's startup a little faster. It's iffy otherwise.

Forgive me for the noob question, but what is KB?

*Giant Meteor! HERE IS TRUE POWER! Shuttle Loop - nothing too noticeable about it beyond punishing you for letting Meta Knight stay too close for extended periods.

Not really sure what you mean.

*Drill Rush - if anything, tone down, but nothing noticeable, just make it less spammable. Not quite sure what to do.

It's definitely not spammable. What it needs is for its priority to be toned down. Otherwise, it's fine.

*Dimensional Cape - yeah, definitely get rid of the IDC shenanigans. However, do make DC itself a little faster. I'm fine with Meta Knight being susceptible to counterattacks, but DC is just too slow to see decent use.

Well, IDC is a glitch, so there's a good chance they'll get rid of it for Smash 4. Even then, it's banned in tournament play anyway. Also, it isn't slow. Maybe as an offensive option, but as a recovery move, it's actually pretty fantastic.

Meta Knight recolors...

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I'm definitely loving the purple and black one.

 

[nessokman]

nerfing meta-

Weaken aerial attacks
slow him
lower number of jumps to 3
GET NEW, LESS SPAMMABLE DOWN SPECIAL!

 

[gothrax]

Who here thinks that meta night's Dair should be changed?

Cuz IMO its one of his most boring moves, and its kind of just... well his Uair flipped?

Anyway what if they considered taking from canon
and changed his Dair to something similar to IC Dair?
Were he spikes downward With a rigit vertical speed,
And maybe a little horizontal control like GW.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Who here thinks that meta night's Dair should be changed?

Cuz IMO its one of his most boring moves, and its kind of just... well his Uair flipped?

Anyway what if they considered taking from canon
and changed his Dair to something similar to IC Dair?
Were he spikes downward With a rigit vertical speed,
And maybe a little horizontal control like GW.

I like that idea, actually. It will make it so that MK can't have so much control with spacing. I mean, I don't think his Dair as it currently stands is boring, since it's still a great move and a wonderful gimp tool, but I do believe it's just too good.

 

[SmashShadow]

nerfing meta-

Weaken aerial attacks
slow him
lower number of jumps to 3
GET NEW, LESS SPAMMABLE DOWN SPECIAL!

I'm all for nerfing meta knight but seriously, you guys are going overboard. 3 JUMPS!!
The man has wings for christ-sake.

Edit: Pit can't even fly and he has more jumps than that.

 

[Master Knight DH]

KB = Knockback

Okay, so spammable isn't the right word to describe Drill Rush. Maybe it should deal low damage though, to make it suffer net punishment if used poorly.

I find DC bad for approaching, which it is supposed to do. I'm not concerned about recovery when Meta Knight's recovery is strong to begin with.

Speaking of, I don't find nerfing Meta's recovery necessary, to say nothing that it doesn't fit because he flies better than Kirby himself in the Kirby games. Just make his bad base KB actually matter as a critical problem that leaves him not too difficult to contest via defense power tactics, and make sure he dies OUTRIGHT in general from decent abuse.

 

[jigglover]

When was drill rush spamable?

On a stage like final destination you can spam drill rush down the only land, turn round and spam it the other way.

 

[Claire Diviner]

On a stage like final destination you can spam drill rush down the only land, turn round and spam it the other way.

It's not really as annoying as Nado though. Not sure if it's easier to punish though.

 

[SmashShadow]

On a stage like final destination you can spam drill rush down the only land, turn round and spam it the other way.

Seeing as the last hit knocks the opponent back it wouldn't make any sense for you to turn the other direction and drill rush when there is nobody there. Also, a blocked or dodged drill rush is easily punished by fast/medium speed characters. Most of what you described is just noob behavior.

 

[jigglover]

I know, it was just how you were asking how it could be spammable. I've never done or seen anybody do that, but I just thought that somebody could do it, and it would rack up damage fairly quickly.

 

[Claire Diviner]

No one's ever done it because it wouldn't really yield anything good. It's not all that much of a damage racker compared to other options.

 

[Jon Farron]

If MK's original design is not an available costume in the next Smash, I'll be sad:

BADASS.

Omg, is that for real? Lmao.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Omg, is that for real? Lmao.

That was more-or-less my initial reaction too. I tell you what: If they do decide to bring in that design for MK in Smash 4, I may use him again in that game. If not a main, then definitely a secondary.

 

[Master Knight DH]

nerfing meta-

Weaken aerial attacks
slow him
lower number of jumps to 3
GET NEW, LESS SPAMMABLE DOWN SPECIAL!

That I will agree with, on some level. If anything, mechanics need to better accommodate defensive power.

DO NOT SLOW HIM. That defeats the very point of him. Just make sure he has bad base KB that actually matters.

And have him less mobile than Kirby when that isn't the case in the Kirby games. NO! Just make him actually die fast enough.

Why? And since was DC spammable to begin with?

Who here thinks that meta night's Dair should be changed?

Cuz IMO its one of his most boring moves, and its kind of just... well his Uair flipped?

Anyway what if they considered taking from canon
and changed his Dair to something similar to IC Dair?
Were he spikes downward With a rigit vertical speed,
And maybe a little horizontal control like GW.

Aerial smashes should be added. More variety makes Meta Knight easier to balance. There's a reason why he's at his most dangerous in Kirby's Adventure.

The Up Air needs to be plausible to punch through at the very least.

Hey, good idea for an aerial down smash.

 

[Ussi]

MK shouldn't jump up after drill rush is over, just fall straight down. Gliding needs to be nerfed so that you can't always arc down and up over and over again. All aerials need more post-lag. Tornado should not gain aerial speed. Possible a nerf to his range in all moves like Marth.

Lastly, his entrance should not be his taunt.

 

[Master Knight DH]

MK shouldn't jump up after drill rush is over, just fall straight down.
Sound good.

Gliding needs to be nerfed so that you can't always arc down and up over and over again.
That brings up something: SSB4 should have a stamina system so that intentionally being off stage for extended periods can't work.

All aerials need more post-lag.
What all aerials need is to have to deal with mechanics that favor defensive power better.

Tornado should not gain aerial speed.
Tornado again needs to at least deal with mechanics that, again, favor defensive power better.

Possible a nerf to his range in all moves like Marth.
Not needed if defensive power can actually, you know, WORK.

Lastly, his entrance should not be his taunt.
What's that have to do with anything?

What should be kept in mind is that Meta Knight is probably meant to be a subtle "conquer yourself" character. Which is all the more reason why defensive power should be able to function.

 

[Steam]

all you need to do to balance MK is make nado so it can't be clashed with (any hitbox that hits MK causes a trade), make his aerial shuttle loop not have such a ridiculous launch angle and base knockback, and tone down his glide options. they could slow down his uair by a few frames too.

though tbh after dealing with him for so long I wouldn't mind seeing him nerfed to the ground lol.

 

[Master Knight DH]

all you need to do to balance MK is make nado so it can't be clashed with (any hitbox that hits MK causes a trade), make his aerial shuttle loop not have such a ridiculous launch angle and base knockback, and tone down his glide options. they could slow down his uair by a few frames too.

though tbh after dealing with him for so long I wouldn't mind seeing him nerfed to the ground lol.

Tornado needs to be more plausible to hit from above and also plausible to just punish with proper counterattacking.

Shuttle Loop should have an air penalty, yeah.

Why tone down his glide options?

Up Air should be plausible to punch through at least, so that he can't plank.

And Meta Knight doesn't have to be nerfed to the ground. The stuff that supports him, perhaps, but Meta Knight himself? NO!

 

[Ove]

Although I think Meta Knight has a moveset that really suits him, I think Sakurai should change some moves and definitely nerf the most of them.

For instance, his Dair could be changed to a move similar to Toon Link's dair (he has a downthrust in the Kirby games, iirc).

 

[jigglover]

If MK's original design is not an available costume in the next Smash, I'll be sad:

BADASS.

I don't care how crap he'll be in smash 4, i'm gonna main this butterfly with a Christmas cracker!

 

[FooltheFlames]

Strike him down with like 100 super NERF missiles, only then can you let him return!

 

[firebro17]

God please either nerf him to death or don't bother putting him in at all. I'm sick of going to tournaments watching MK winning 85% of them. =/

 

[SmashShadow]

-They should make forward tilt his jab and make his regular jab a mash.
-Get rid of his second glide because there's no need when he has Shuttle Loop.
-Nerf knockback of shuttle loop.
-Nerf Nado.
-Get rid of transcendent priority on 90% of his moves.
-Slow up aerial by a couple frames(3-5).
-Fix infinite dimensional cape glitch.
-Give a FS that doesn't suck both visually and in usefulness.

 

[peeup]

As long as they fix shuttle loop being so stupidly useless, I'll be satisfied.

 

[Diddy Kong]

You know, I always wondered why the Shuttle Loop even did damage. It doesn't need to do damage, especially not so much. And indeed, nerf his Tornado, priority, kill power and make his aerials slightly slower. He's a cool character, but we could deal with less of him.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

God please either nerf him to death or don't bother putting him in at all. I'm sick of going to tournaments watching MK winning 85% of them. =/

Brawl's physics are the main culprit though. Meta Knight could remain unchanged for Smash 4, but end up being much less uber, if Smash 4's physics don't work to his favor.

 

[peeup]

Brawl's physics are the main culprit though. Meta Knight could remain unchanged for Smash 4, but end up being much less uber, if Smash 4's physics don't work to his favor.

I never got into melee competitively so this is just guesswork, but with added hitstun wouldn't MK be like twice as overpowered? Like he's be able to combo and WoP till the cows come home.

 

[SmashShadow]

You know, I always wondered why the Shuttle Loop even did damage. It doesn't need to do damage, especially not so much. And indeed, nerf his Tornado, priority, kill power and make his aerials slightly slower. He's a cool character, but we could deal with less of him.

I wouldn't say nerf his kill power though. He really only has a few kill moves(nair, side smash, down smash, and shuttle loop) and 3/4 of those have below average knockback. This might be the one area he needs a buff in. Shuttle loop ony does 9% damage but the knockback is too much on this move.

 

[Ove]

You know, I always wondered why the Shuttle Loop even did damage. It doesn't need to do damage, especially not so much. And indeed, nerf his Tornado, priority, kill power and make his aerials slightly slower. He's a cool character, but we could deal with less of him.

It does damage in the actual Kirby games, so it makes sense.

They could change it into a grab, I guess...

 

[Diddy Kong]

You know. Everyone was anxious Meta Knight would become overpowered when we saw him revealed...

 

[SmashChu]

Just a quicky.

The hard part of balancing Meta-Knight is making sure he doesn't become awful in a free-for-all or team setting. In a larger brawl, he's not as strong (not bad, mind you). Two big changes to look at.

-His Tornado can be pretty mean. Making it less resistant to everything might be good. However, it is beatable by simply blocking. It would be hard to do a work for this, but it would be something to look at.

-His down smash is too strong for it's speed. Meta-Knight's weakness should be KO power, but a move like this gives him a lot. It's as strong as Mario's down smash and VERY quick. I think it should be a fast sweep, but it shouldn't kill characters at such low damages.

Other changes should be small from here. It's generally balancing his fast speed and attack power. Either way, he's always be strong in competitive Smash just because of his attack speed.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Only thing thats bothering MetaKnight in free for all is that he's rather light. And people would probably team up on him for being MetaKnight. Otherwise, he has no problem at all in free for alls.

He could use less priority, and some of his moves should be weak that even mid weighted characters would not flinch so much when he lands a blow.

 

[SmashChu]

Only thing thats bothering MetaKnight in free for all is that he's rather light. And people would probably team up on him for being MetaKnight. Otherwise, he has no problem at all in free for alls.

He also lack any solid KO moves. Meta-Knight is very good at controlling the match, but that's much harder to do when you have to fight three other people. He lack crowd control and most of the cast has more reliable KO moves. He can kill with standard air, forward smash, down smash and Up special, but most characters have better moves that KO at much lower percents. Generally, from my time playing Meta-Knight in free for all, they tend to have a lower score because I can KO far better than they could ever hope for. It's also a lot harder to "gimp" players with other players constantly fighting you. He also has an awful final smash.