Meta Knight Officially Banned!

[Black Mantis]

I do =]

 

[Divinokage]

It's going to be funny if there's no MKs in Top 8 at Apex just because they all sandbagged just to show that MK is not OP.. or something like that. lol.

 

[stingers]

no, if there are no MKs in the top 8 at apex then its just proves that mk never should've been banned b/c he's obv. not broken
and if there are 8 mks in the top 8 its obv. just because everyone forgot the MU due to the ban

obv

 

[Divinokage]

no, if there are no MKs in the top 8 at apex then its just proves that mk never should've been banned b/c he's obv. not broken
and if there are 8 mks in the top 8 its obv. just because everyone forgot the MU due to the ban

obv

Hehe, that could be another reason!

 

[Orion*]

1.) If they're good with that character, and you are able to beat other MKs, you show evidence of that (which doesn't matter much at this point, but it supports your anti-ban arguments)

It's already been proven that mk isn't broken mechanic in game, but moreso just overcentralized, so giving false hope to people like "if you beat mk we wont be salty anymore" is a **** move. There is no evidence for either side of this even moreso now pointless debate.

I'm just convinced most of pro ban will be salty ****s anyway, you get you're way and most of you are still just complaining at everything. LMAO

scrubby *** mindsets

 

[Metakill]

apex GF: Europe (Mr R) vs Japan(Nietono)
USA players will know that they don't know how to play against MK.

more realistic...

Ally, M2K, Anti, Nairo in top 5.

lol

 

[Vinylic.]

And if I were in top 5?

 

[Orion*]

apex GF: Europe (Mr R) vs Japan(Nietono)
USA players will know that they don't know how to play against MK.

more realistic...

Ally, M2K, Anti, Nairo in top 5.

lol

I think ramin will place very well at apex.
I could see nietono winning the whole thing.
I also expect high placings from kakera and otori

Ally vs Mr.R was game 5 both sets they played so I don't think it's unreasonable for ramin to beat US MKs. Especially considering EC ones don't know the MU....
I'm more worried about him playing ADHD/DEHF/IC mains

 

[Vyse]

I'm trying to phrase this as rationally as possible and I don't want this to bother anyone.

This MK issue really shows how harmful ninty's refusal to treat you guys like a real competitive community is to the game. Think of any real life competitive event. Pro sports implement rule changes relatively frequently, SF games are re-released and updated frequently, and even the piece movements in chess have changed over centuries. Magic, the most successful trading card game ever, has new sets constantly being released and cards that have proven to be overpowered constantly hitting the ban list. Good games NEED balancing and tweaks over time when good players hunt out the most effective strategies and start to break the game (when a game is broken is always a matter of debate, but it's always once the decision making process needed to win becomes oversimplified and rote).
I'll admit, some games are lucky miracles from the start and turn out rather well (MvC, melee?), but games that don't aren't lost causes and can really shine with help (like Brawl). Nintendo isn't providing it. It might not be necessary yet, but the survival of the long term core brawl community would be helped a lot by adopting something like Balanced Brawl (plus this awful divisive MK ban debacle would also be nicely sidestepped). You'll lose a lot of casual players but a solid community will probably always be there developing the carefully balanced meta.

Two options: play a bad game, ban characters to make it fun again, or play a better game that isn't necessarily what sakurai wanted.

(I understand that there are tons of tournament logistical issues and problems getting sponsors or w/e when you start "hacking" [lol file on SD card > open stage builder > success] your Wiis so uh maybe forget about it.)

I am fundamentally opposed to the ban, but I like this post since it more or less conveys why it's not such a bad thing.

Like how I think ptad is a great stage, but can accept it being banned so take that for what its worth

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'm trying to phrase this as rationally as possible and I don't want this to bother anyone.

This MK issue really shows how harmful ninty's refusal to treat you guys like a real competitive community is to the game. Think of any real life competitive event. Pro sports implement rule changes relatively frequently, SF games are re-released and updated frequently, and even the piece movements in chess have changed over centuries. Magic, the most successful trading card game ever, has new sets constantly being released and cards that have proven to be overpowered constantly hitting the ban list. Good games NEED balancing and tweaks over time when good players hunt out the most effective strategies and start to break the game (when a game is broken is always a matter of debate, but it's always once the decision making process needed to win becomes oversimplified and rote).
I'll admit, some games are lucky miracles from the start and turn out rather well (MvC, melee?), but games that don't aren't lost causes and can really shine with help (like Brawl). Nintendo isn't providing it. It might not be necessary yet, but the survival of the long term core brawl community would be helped a lot by adopting something like Balanced Brawl (plus this awful divisive MK ban debacle would also be nicely sidestepped). You'll lose a lot of casual players but a solid community will probably always be there developing the carefully balanced meta.

Two options: play a bad game, ban characters to make it fun again, or play a better game that isn't necessarily what sakurai wanted.

(I understand that there are tons of tournament logistical issues and problems getting sponsors or w/e when you start "hacking" [lol file on SD card > open stage builder > success] your Wiis so uh maybe forget about it.)

I spoke before why adopting a game-altering change doesn't work for everyone. You have to remember that not every Wii can use all those hacks. Some are already unable to due to updates.(which could be from WiiConnect 24, or other new video games that does an automatic update.)

This means that in order for everyone to do it, they'd have to not only buy an SD card, but possibly but a new Wii just to play the game like that. And it's more than just Tournaments Organizers that do this, it's also every single person who wants to play in the Tournaments. Also, what would happen if they don't have a computer that can use SD cards? Like a very old one. That's a huge amount of money they have to spend just to play a hack.

And besides that, if we have to hack the game to fix a broken character, then it's just the character that is the problem here. The rest of the game is perfectly fine, albeit not to everyone's tastes. It's just one overdominant character that is the sole problem. We can ban items/stages/characters and still play the game just how it can be played without any game-altering changes. This isn't a bad thing, after all.

And yes, it sucks that we can't have OFFICIAL updates to the game, but taking it into our own hands by doing hacks isn't exactly a great route either. Also, many people prefer to play the game without hacks do to morals. There's nothing wrong with that. If they have to be forced to essentially do something illegal or close to just to be competitive, that's not very fair to them, now is it? A player choosing another character isn't a bad thing, and it means they have to try new things to stay competitive. This is how many games work. And it's just right. Bans are not bad by default. I admit, I would rather play with most things on, but that's not good in very competitive tournaments with money on the line. If one character being played takes the money most of the time, then it's just the character who is dominating. You get rid of that, and the gameplay changes. Now, we don't know if there would be a top six, or another single topper. But considering nobody has a powerful matchup like MK does, so far, the best we can get is that there'll be variety. In other words, it's possible a similar thing could happen, but our current statistics prove otherwise.

 

[Big Moose]

I spoke before why adopting a game-altering change doesn't work for everyone. You have to remember that not every Wii can use all those hacks. Some are already unable to due to updates.(which could be from WiiConnect 24, or other new video games that does an automatic update.)

.

Ever heard of stack smash?

 

[Ghostbone]

I spoke before why adopting a game-altering change doesn't work for everyone. You have to remember that not every Wii can use all those hacks. Some are already unable to due to updates.(which could be from WiiConnect 24, or other new video games that does an automatic update.)

Since when does updating your wii not allow you to play hacks using the Brawl stage builder method?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

^ And ignoring that, you forgot the other points that exist. I admit I never used it before. So let's erase that specific sentence. Thank you for pointing that out.

 

[Ussi]

Since when does updating your wii not allow you to play hacks using the Brawl stage builder method?

Ever heard of stack smash?

Not everyone keeps up with how easy the wii is to hack. But yea, any wii can play a modded brawl, you just need 1 SD card and a working copy of brawl.





Also when we hacked the game, we made it more fun too, giving buffs to weaker characters, slightly altering good ones to make them great. (BB)

Or make everyone broken (B-)

or change the system altogether (P:M)

 

[Dr. R.O.Botnik]

I love how the Melee players always start ***** with Brawl players whenever possible and then completely deny it when confronted, or better yet, admit it and act like it was justified. Seriously, just go play your game and let us be. Your attempts to convert us are not working.

 

[Shadic]

I spoke before why adopting a game-altering change doesn't work for everyone. You have to remember that not every Wii can use all those hacks. Some are already unable to due to updates.(which could be from WiiConnect 24, or other new video games that does an automatic update.)

This means that in order for everyone to do it, they'd have to not only buy an SD card, but possibly but a new Wii just to play the game like that.

Wrong. Smashstack works on all Wiis. It's a coding error in Brawl itself that allows it to function.

Sorry, just tired of misinformation.

Not to mention the fact that we're past the point where something like Balance Brawl just tweaks Brawl's content to make it better. It's now essentially has a character (Metaknight) that the competitive scene lacks. Add the better character balance and improved stage roster, and its clear which game is easier for competitive play.

As for people who whine about having to load the game through a hack? They can put their man-pants on. Playing Smash competitively already requires people to pay hundreds of dollars to travel cross-country (Or even internationally) A $5 SD card and 30 seconds of worry the first time they load a mod up pales in comparison.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

time for a different set of wings to rule over brawl

 

[Hylian]

This is a sad day for me.

I really love this community. I've met a lot of amazing people through it and had some great experiences. I've been in the competitive smash scene since I was 13, I am now 22. It's been a very big part of my life.

Despite all of that I am very disappointed in the brawl community. I've defended brawl and worked to bring the smash community closer. I took part in all of the mk discussions until the URC one. I could have but chose not to as I'm not really part of the URC. It's understandable that people don't like the character but I've never had anyone convince me in the slightest that he needs to be banned.

I understand this is a decision that the URC made and it will affect their tournaments, so I will respect that and not throw pointless banter at them. I'm more disappointed in the community as a whole, whose constant complaints led to this. I implore people to host mk legal tournaments if they disagree with the decision. Bashing the URC will do nothing, and sure your tournament won't be sticked, but who cares? For those who wanted mk banned, enjoy, though you could have been hosting mk banned tournaments this entire time(I know of them, but the are very few comparatively).

I personally, am pretty much done with this community. I will still go to local tournaments, and travel with my girlfriend to a few tournaments just to see friends that I've made and have a good time, but I won't be taking the tournaments seriously. In that regard I am going to pick up melee again.

I look forward to seeing new results and such, but it's something I never wanted to look forward to. I never expected to be disappointed like this by this community but I guess I should have.

Enjoy brawl.

 

[Black Mantis]

I love how the Melee players always start ***** with Brawl players whenever possible and then completely deny it when confronted, or better yet, admit it and act like it was justified. Seriously, just go play your game and let us be. Your attempts to convert us are not working.

this^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

This is a sad day for me.

I really love this community. I've met a lot of amazing people through it and had some great experiences. I've been in the competitive smash scene since I was 13, I am now 22. It's been a very big part of my life.

Despite all of that I am very disappointed in the brawl community. I've defended brawl and worked to bring the smash community closer. I took part in all of the mk discussions until the URC one. I could have but chose not to as I'm not really part of the URC. It's understandable that people don't like the character but I've never had anyone convince me in the slightest that he needs to be banned.

I understand this is a decision that the URC made and it will affect their tournaments, so I will respect that and not throw pointless banter at them. I'm more disappointed in the community as a whole, whose constant complaints led to this. I implore people to host mk legal tournaments if they disagree with the decision. Bashing the URC will do nothing, and sure your tournament won't be sticked, but who cares? For those who wanted mk banned, enjoy, though you could have been hosting mk banned tournaments this entire time(I know of them, but the are very few comparatively).

I personally, am pretty much done with this community. I will still go to local tournaments, and travel with my girlfriend to a few tournaments just to see friends that I've made and have a good time, but I won't be taking the tournaments seriously. In that regard I am going to pick up melee again.

I look forward to seeing new results and such, but it's something I never wanted to look forward to. I never expected to be disappointed like this by this community but I guess I should have.

Enjoy brawl.

You do realize that brawl isn't the first FG to ban a character. *sigh* w/e though I guess. It's funny though how much **** brawl when it's scene is no different from any other FG. Enjoy whatever you do after brawl though.

 

[san.]

I didn't personally like MK that much, but he was tolerable for me. I just couldn't stand his negative effects on the community, and the mindsets created because of it (elitist or defeatist).

I felt that MK was harming the community, and this problem should have been addressed more seriously a long time ago instead of being dragged out because of a select few silencing the vast majority of users.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

dude, to everyone who isn't even gonna give this ban a chance and totally over-react to it and ***** whine moan and complain. you know what xyro would say at a time like this?

DEAL WITH IT

*doesn't care about this thread, but will see who posts what after this post for one page*

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I didn't personally like MK that much, but he was tolerable for me. I just couldn't stand his negative effects on the community, and the mindsets created because of it (elitist or defeatist).

I felt that MK was harming the community, and this problem should have been addressed more seriously a long time ago instead of being dragged out because of a select few silencing the vast majority of users.

Na son it's the communitys fault not MK if this community was more like the SF community then we'd be some where. But the brawl community is so immature etc etc etc..../sarcasm.

 

[SmashChu]

Yeah, you can't really compare Brawl to something like BB.

BB (and other fighters) have game updates to look forward to, we don't. We're stuck with Brawl as is. There's not going to be some Brawl Arcade Edition or what have you.

I wouldn't call SmashChu a troll, mind you. But he needs to stop comparing this game to other series. They only share one thing in common: Being a fighting game with characters. I mean, I can understand the Street Fighter analogy, since we're talking about 1 on 1(player-wise), but the games are still played completely differently anyway. The Smash Bros. series is closer to a beat-'em up than a Traditional Fighting game anyway.(Power Stone, for example) Yes, the competitive scene plays a bit more like a traditional game, but it's honestly not one.(atleast not Brawl and Classic. Melee has a bit of a traditional style t it)

Translation: Whaa Whaa, stop comparing it to other games because there is no way for us to argue against it.

Smash is a fighting game,, and even one of the post above me said so. But trying to ignore other fighting games is a cop out so you don't have to actually argue it. I'm looking at other fighting games because they make a good comparison. And I'm going to keep doing it because the point isn't wrong and is backed up by something more than "internet smart."

If you don't want to look at these other games, especially fighting games, than Smash Brothers is not a fighting series. But when you guys want to start calling it a fighting game, get ready to play in the big boy pool.

Ehhhh no. That match-up chart is just wrong (and likely also outdated).

Second, Blazblue CT was a billion times more balanced than Brawl is and Rachel and Nu did have (many) match-ups there were worse than 6-4.

Let's actually compare match-up charts shall we.

BlazBlue
Brawl

Rachel has one match-up where she is slightly disadvantaged. The rest are all good and most of them are 60-40 with two 70-30. She has a 45-55 against one other character who is also top. She pretty much dominates the rest of the case. Meta-Knight is slightly advantaged against a good number of the cast, but has a lot of evens as well. his overall ranking is that he has an advantage where most of the top characters have a slight advantage. Note that against none of the top characters does he have a large advantage and many of them are slight if not even. It only gets bad against the bottom of the cast, but they get stomped by the top anyway. Basically, it is not unwinnable and Meta-Knight can be beaten as very few of the top characters really have a large disadvantage.

See, there is a difference between being over powered and broken. Broken means there is no other reason to pick another character over them. Over powered means they are really damn good. Meta-Knight does have a lot of advantages, but very few where he dominates. He is no different than Sagat who did very well against the top cast. meta-Knight instead does Ok against the top, if not has a slight edge. Of course, better play mitigates it. Improving of the character's meta-game will also mitigate it.

Basically, I'm saying that the arguement are kid of bull. Yeah he's strong. Is he as unbeatable as you all think he is? No. This is more likely a few players being upset that they can't deal with Mutas Meta-Knight.

 

[Krystedez]

I implore people to host mk legal tournaments if they disagree with the decision.

Enjoy brawl.

I am planning on hosting MK legal tournaments in the future when my college work is done and I have time or money to do it. Just for the people who are really wanting to make sure their skills in the MK matchup are sharp. Not because I don't want MK banned. I have for a long time hoped for a tournament standard, simply because the tournament environment is better without him. Have you ever tried a MK-banned tourney?

Otherwise I'm supporting MKbanned tournaments, and if the community disappointed you that much Hylian, I don't see why you were even giving it a chance in the first place.

 

[san.]

Data about Meta Knight has been gathered extensively for the past 2 years. Tournament data, region progression, community trends and debates, ect. included. Maybe some people's reasoning on the matter is deeper than you think it is.

 

[SpongeJordan]

Exactly. He has, at worst, even matchups. Do you know what that MEANS? EVEN matchups. EVEN. Not "I eliminate every other character in the game simply by existing." The entire community has designated that he has EVEN MATCHUPS. EVEN. MATCHUPS.

The BBR even has a matchup chart showing just that. At an equivalent skill level, an even match up implies that it could go either way, it's up to the players to best one another.

Seriously, **** this party game bull****, lol. You kids should probably grow up rat her than complain.

 

[Ussi]

There is no reason to use a character other than MK. Using another character leaves you liable to character CPs and stage CPs.

 

[SpongeJordan]

There is no reason to use a character other than MK. Using another character leaves you liable to character CPs and stage CPs.

That's why all top 8 at Nationals are MK mains, right?

 

[Ussi]

That's why all top 8 at Nationals are MK mains, right?

Human nature to be different/stand out gets the better of people

 

[Flayl]

The BBR chart also says MK has +2 against mario and is even against Pikachu

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Translation: Whaa Whaa, stop comparing it to other games because there is no way for us to argue against it.

Smash is a fighting game,, and even one of the post above me said so. But trying to ignore other fighting games is a cop out so you don't have to actually argue it. I'm looking at other fighting games because they make a good comparison. And I'm going to keep doing it because the point isn't wrong and is backed up by something more than "internet smart."

If you don't want to look at these other games, especially fighting games, than Smash Brothers is not a fighting series. But when you guys want to start calling it a fighting game, get ready to play in the big boy pool..

It is a fighting game....it's not a traditional fighter but it's still a fighting game.


Let's actually compare match-up charts shall we.

BlazBlue
Brawl

Rachel has one match-up where she is slightly disadvantaged. The rest are all good and most of them are 60-40 with two 70-30. She has a 45-55 against one other character who is also top. She pretty much dominates the rest of the case. Meta-Knight is slightly advantaged against a good number of the cast, but has a lot of evens as well. his overall ranking is that he has an advantage where most of the top characters have a slight advantage. Note that against none of the top characters does he have a large advantage and many of them are slight if not even. It only gets bad against the bottom of the cast, but they get stomped by the top anyway. Basically, it is not unwinnable and Meta-Knight can be beaten as very few of the top characters really have a large disadvantage.

See, there is a difference between being over powered and broken. Broken means there is no other reason to pick another character over them. Over powered means they are really damn good. Meta-Knight does have a lot of advantages, but very few where he dominates. He is no different than Sagat who did very well against the top cast. meta-Knight instead does Ok against the top, if not has a slight edge. Of course, better play mitigates it. Improving of the character's meta-game will also mitigate it.

Basically, I'm saying that the arguement are kid of bull. Yeah he's strong. Is he as unbeatable as you all think he is? No. This is more likely a few players being upset that they can't deal with Mutas Meta-Knight

If the only thing that mattered in brawl where MU's then I'd agree with what you're saying to an extent however, stages can more than nullify MU's and changes ****. If you want to talk SFIV then can you please bring up Yun/Yang/Fei/Viper and how they totally dominated SBO.

The problem because when the mK's continue to improve their meta-game and grow as well. It's not as though they're staying still and not getting better either. What we know now is pretty much what we've know a long time MK is by far the best character in the game and we only make arbitrary rules in an attempt to through up road blocks to try and slow him down. Take away the LGL and allow people to camp with MK give him some of his CP's back and then let's talk about how fair he is. There's some **** that's can't be overcome.

 

[JPOBS]

Bashing the URC will do nothing, and sure your tournament won't be sticked, but who cares?

Wait, tournies that don't support the ban/ruleset dont get stickied? Who the **** died and made these guys the overlords of the community.

 

[FoxBlaze71]

This is ********.

We can't change the ban, and it's largely fair to the community.

Nothing more needs to be said.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I am planning on hosting MK legal tournaments in the future when my college work is done and I have time or money to do it. Just for the people who are really wanting to make sure their skills in the MK matchup are sharp. Not because I don't want MK banned. I have for a long time hoped for a tournament standard, simply because the tournament environment is better without him. Have you ever tried a MK-banned tourney?

Otherwise I'm supporting MKbanned tournaments, and if the community disappointed you that much Hylian, I don't see why you were even giving it a chance in the first place.

Kryst I'd advise against this. I'd really hope the brawl community can come together and agree on something like this. If the community becomes ban / anti ban in the tourney scene the game will die.

 

[Ussi]

Wait, tournies that don't support the ban/ruleset dont get stickied? Who the **** died and made these guys the overlords of the community.

Well if they leave then we have no tourneys to go to.

Soo... its either go to their tourneys.. or.. not go to tourneys.


though its more incentive to join unity as well

 

[SmashChu]

Exactly. He has, at worst, even matchups. Do you know what that MEANS? EVEN matchups. EVEN. Not "I eliminate every other character in the game simply by existing." The entire community has designated that he has EVEN MATCHUPS. EVEN. MATCHUPS.

The BBR even has a matchup chart showing just that. At an equivalent skill level, an even match up implies that it could go either way, it's up to the players to best one another.

Seriously, **** this party game bull****, lol. You kids should probably grow up rat her than complain.

What? That post doesn't even make sense. Yes, he has, at worst, even match-ups. AND? What's yours point. You never make it.

It doesn't imply him being broken, just him being overpowered. You ban characters when they are broken, when there is no reason to play another character. Meta-Knight still has even match ups and most of them are slight advantage. He's overpowered. Which means play though it if you a competent player. Complain about it if you can't.

Most of the people in this thread are not better than Starcraft noobs who get killed by one base Mutas.

I'd like to get into how this can destroy the community in the long run. Maybe another time.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

SmashChu, let's be clear on something: Brawl is not like those games whatsoever. That's why you shouldn't be comparing them. If you want to use data and reasonings, use it from the ACTUAL single game. Especially since many people on here don't play those games you mention, making the comparison worthless. Ignoring people who never played this game, of course, many have only played Brawl too. Which means everything you says fall on deaf ears. If you want to compare it to Melee or 64, fine. Those are both actually within the same series.

But not everybody plays every game you mentioned, making the comparisons about as useful as comparing a pen to dragon. Smash Bros. is a Fighting Game. And no, your comparisons aren't "good" because you say they are. They only are decent on a very basic level. Atleast compare it to a game that plays somewhat like Smash Bros., which so far is nothing you have listed. Power Stone atleast has somewhat similar gameplay. Hell, Killer Instinct is closer than a Street Fighter game. Compare those instead.

Also, people don't have to play other fighting games to be play Smash. It's just as much of a fighting series as any other game. That doesn't mean the comparisons are even close. Atleast the Soul Calibur argument had something to it. They both have a form of Ring-Outs. That's ACTUAL similar gameplay, don't ya know.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

What? That post doesn't even make sense. Yes, he has, at worst, even match-ups. AND? What's yours point. You never make it.

It doesn't imply him being broken, just him being overpowered. You ban characters when they are broken, when there is no reason to play another character. Meta-Knight still has even match ups and most of them are slight advantage. He's overpowered. Which means play though it if you a competent player. Complain about it if you can't.

Most of the people in this thread are not better than Starcraft noobs who get killed by one base Mutas.

I'd like to get into how this can destroy the community in the long run. Maybe another time.

You do realize that there's about 5 rules for MK and 3 or 4 stages banned because of MK right ? But let's ignore this and keep running MK out there....w/e.

 

[JPOBS]

Well if they leave then we have no tourneys to go to.

Soo... its either go to their tourneys.. or.. not go to tourneys.


though its more incentive to join unity as well

That doesn't mean they have to be discriminatory towards TOs that don't support your rules.

"Agree with us, or we will be ****s and hurt your tournament attendence"