Melee Techniques Being Left out of Brawl

[sugarpoultry]

pro·fes·sion·al (pr-fsh-nl)
adj.
1.
a. Of, relating to, engaged in, or suitable for a profession: lawyers, doctors, and other professional people.
b. Conforming to the standards of a profession: professional behavior.
2. Engaging in a given activity as a source of livelihood or as a career: a professional writer.
3. Performed by persons receiving pay: professional football.
4. Having or showing great skill; expert: a professional repair job.
n.
1. A person following a profession, especially a learned profession.
2. One who earns a living in a given or implied occupation: hired a professional to decorate the house.
3. A skilled practitioner; an expert.

tour·na·ment (trn-mnt, tûr-)
n.
1. A series of contests in which a number of contestants compete and the one that prevails through the final round or that finishes with the best record is declared the winner.
2. A medieval martial sport in which two groups of mounted and armored combatants fought against each other with blunted lances or swords.

LOL, just because you know how to find dictionary.com and type in the word, doesn't mean jack.

 

[MVPaintballer]

this thread is full of johns lulz....

Wavedash and L-cancel is out there for everyone. Don't cry bc u lose

Honestly you noobs who think they should be out (mainly talking to those with a post count lower than 100) need to stop QQ. This thread is tl;dr and its probably the same scrub bull**** repeated over and over again. Really if you don't want to then don't wavedash but dont try to bring the rest of us down with you like a little *****.

 

[Dogenzaka]

LOL, just because you know how to find dictionary.com and type in the word, doesn't mean jack.

It technically means I know what the definition of a word is, which was your inquiry.

this thread is full of johns lulz....

Wonder what that is.

Source?

Explained already. Over 8 million Smash Bros. Melee copies have been sold. If you add the Nsider + Smashboards member count, it's not even 100,000 people, and that's assuming everyone of them knows how to wavedash/l-cancel/etc. That's a minority right there.

Define 'naturally.'

In my opinion or the online dictionary?

 

[Red Exodus]

Dog wants to show off his copy and pasting skillz. I think we should remove copy and paste because most people don't know how to use it.

*laughs at the fact that Dog wants the tournament scene to consist the majority of players*

 

[sugarpoultry]

This thread is going almost as fast as IceDrifters'. LOL at MVPaintballers post.

Tis a fact. I cried because I lost, because I didn't know how to do it. But now that I know how to do it, there is no excuse for my loses but my own skill.

 

[greenblob]

With my friends. With advanced players I'm FORCED to.

We could be talking about curveballs/spitter balls/etc. and baseball.

 

[Junpappy]

Why is including/excluding wavedashing "catering to the pros"?

 

[Dogenzaka]

Dog wants to show off his copy and pasting skillz. I think we should remove copy and paste because most people don't know how to use it.

You're being ridiculous. Be serious or get out.

To be honest, I don't really give a **** about Online play, sweet its there, but I enjoy taking the time to journey around the city to meet smasher in person, in person they are a lot more reasonable and the atmosphere is more cheerful. Online has always been, for the most part full of scrubs whining and talking out of their *****.

That's your opinion.

Guys, get some self control. Insulting and cursing at one another is not admirable or makes you intelligent.

Why is including/excluding wavedashing "catering to the pros"?

Well who else would it cater to?

We could be talking about curveballs/spitter balls/etc. and baseball.

Uh ok?

anyways, brb, chiropractor appointment.

 

[MVPaintballer]

O Noes People Are Getting Too Good We Should Reduce The Game Down!

 

[Red Exodus]

Copy and pastin' from dictionary.comz don't make you smart either but you still do it.

<3 internets

 

[Junpappy]

Do you realize that Nintendo WON'T make a perfect fighting game? Do you not realize that EVERY fighting game has "advanced tactics", that the majority of game owners will never learn? If it's not wavedashing, it will be something else.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

But that's not a glitch o.o

Spinning the ball is every bit as much a glitch as wavedashing is. Wavedashing causes no abnormal results. When a character air dodges into the ground, they slide. Players like to jump and air dodge very rapidly to move along the ground. I don't think the creator of ping pong intended for players to use rubber-padded paddles to grip the ball and apply spin to it.

Right, but this forum =/= the majority of the population's opinion >.>

But you act like you speak for the casual majority. Honestly, most casual players I come across think I am really good and never say I "cheat" or am "cheap". Frankly, they just see that I spend way too much time playing this game and that they would rather do other things with their time. You, on the other hand, speak for a group that is smaller than the competitive community. You speak for the borderline community of smashers who want to be good without having to work for it. I know because I played one guy like that recently. He called my edge-hogging dishonorable and insulted every technique I used. He was a decent Sheik player, and I could tell he probably beats any non-competitive person he comes up against, but I absolutely destroyed his ego. That is the group you represent.

Aren't items usually disqualified in tournaments? lol.

Yes, they are. I talked about them because you brought them up. Wavedashing is available to both players from the very start of a match. Items are not.

Perhaps.

Indeed. You are not going to change the competitive community with your baseless opinions.

 

[Shai Hulud]

Dogenzaka, you seriously must either be 8 years old or ********, to keep pushing this "argument" of yours when it is so blatantly obvious your points are nothing but johns, johns, and more johns.

You're terrible. It's not fair. Sad stuff, I know. I don't know of any "fair" games that hold competitions. If you just play for fun then that's fine. Play for fun. But what the hell are you trying to prove coming into a competitive forum and telling everyone that they should play IN TOURNAMENTS how you play for fun? I.e., without such tactics as wavedashing, short-hopping, fast-falling.

How can you not fast-fall? Are you missing fingers? I'm sorry if you are but you can't expect all of us to lose fingers to accommodate you.

And I laugh at you thinking there is anything remotely original about your post. The only reason I'm even posting in your sad thread is because I'm passing the time waiting for some meaningful reports about Brawl.

 

[Red Exodus]

I think Dog doesn't realize it's hard for us to take him seriously. It's unfair for me to mindgame him so I have to come down to his skillz level.

 

[Dogenzaka]

I think Dog doesn't realize it's hard for us to take him seriously. It's unfair for me to mindgame him so I have to come down to his skillz level.

I don't think you understand. Your sly sarcastic failed attempts of an insult don't budge me or add anything to the debate. Leave.

Dogenzaka, you seriously must either be 8 years old or ********, to keep pushing this "argument" of yours when it is so blatantly obvious your points are nothing but johns, johns, and more johns.

Insulting. Flaming. :/

what on earth are johns?

Be a bit more like Buzz. At least he's more civil than most of you.

Anywho, like I said. Be. Are. Be. Chiropractor appointment.

If it's not wavedashing, it will be something else.

True, like L-Canceling, but L-canceling isn't a glitch. Wavedasing is.

Copy and pastin' from dictionary.comz don't make you smart either but you still do it.

<3 internets

It means I know word definitions.
Learn to spell.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

In Dog's defense, some of you are attempting to flame/mock him out of his position when all he has done is present his case in a straightforward manner. Sure, many of us disagree with him, but he is playing by the rules, and I wish more of you would represent the community better than this.

 

[Noypi_GjD]

[Explained already. Over 8 million Smash Bros. Melee copies have been sold. If you add the Nsider + Smashboards member count, it's not even 100,000 people, and that's assuming everyone of them knows how to wavedash/l-cancel/etc. That's a minority right there.]

I didn't ask for an explanation. Nsider...is a joke, and half the smashboards people here don't even count for the people who can use advance techniques. I would even say its less than 1% of smashers that know how to play with the advance techniques.


[That's your opinion.
Guys, get some self control. Insulting and cursing at one another is not admirable or makes you intelligent.]
Your opinion of the game is the original post of this thread, why is it that I cannot say my opinion?

And yes, all these words of 'wavedash' or 'smash bros' can be replaced with athletic jargon and provide a better analogy. A high jumper who doesn't want to be modern and learn the fosbury flop, or a basketball player who doesn't want to learn how to do a layup should be considered as scrubs.

And again, it appears you are only nitpicking comebacks that you can make an excuse for, there are plenty of good points you have just ignored.

 

[sugarpoultry]

Dogenzaka, you seriously must either be 8 years old or ********, to keep pushing this "argument" of yours when it is so blatantly obvious your points are nothing but johns, johns, and more johns.

He is like the KING OF JOHNS.

 

[Dogenzaka]

In Dog's defense, some of you are attempting to flame/mock him out of his position when all he has done is present his case in a straightforward manner. Sure, many of us disagree with him, but he is playing by the rules, and I wish more of you would represent the community better than this.

Well thank you. Also I apologize if I'm not replying to everyone's post as quickly as possible. I'm kind of busy at the moment and with 8 people posting for every post I make, it's hard to keep up.

 

[Shai Hulud]

In Dog's defense, some of you are attempting to flame/mock him out of his position when all he has done is present his case in a straightforward manner. Sure, many of us disagree with him, but he is playing by the rules, and I wish more of you would represent the community better than this.

I don't see why we should be nice to scrubs who come in and talk down a community by telling us the way we play the game is cheap and dishonorable.

Honestly, **** that ****.

 

[Noypi_GjD]

In Dog's defense, some of you are attempting to flame/mock him out of his position when all he has done is present his case in a straightforward manner. Sure, many of us disagree with him, but he is playing by the rules, and I wish more of you would represent the community better than this.

Hahah, I agree somewhat. The dictionary provides a formal definition of a word, why is it being looked down upon when someone quotes from it.

 

[Dogenzaka]

I don't see why we should be nice to scrubs who come in and talk down a community by telling us the way we play the game is cheap and dishonorable.

I never described you or your way of playing as cheap or dishonorable, I haven't personally mentioned anyone so far.
You should respect me like I'm respecting you, regardless of my opinion towards you, because it's in the rules and is civil. Please be nice.

 

[greenblob]

Uh ok?

The point is, advanced techniques are no different from advanced techniques in sports. If they're in sports, why shouldn't they be in Smash?

 

[Grand Mango]

Let me explain, WHY, I think they should be out, for the fairness of the community, not to cater to the Pros.

The minority of Smash players know how to pull off these techniques. It's much easier to level out the playing field by taking them out, rather than forcing the majority of Smash players to learn these techniques.

SSBM has sold nearly 8 million copies, even if you assume that every member of SmashBoards and the old Nsider forums were avid Wavedash/L-Cancel users, the headcount combined hardly surpass 100,000

The community happens to be us, people who use the techniques. What other smash forums have the other 8 million smashers?

I would call that a minority. Therefore, I doubt they are going to cater these techniques and glitches to the minority that know them, especially when the profit comes from casual gamers nowadays, which is the expanding market.

These techniques leave the people who can pull them off at an advantage. A decent player and a decent player that knows L-cancelling and wavedashing, who has the advantage?

I hate to say it, but there's no such thing as a decent player that doesn't know how to do said tactics.

I'm sure I speak for many when I say I don't want the Smash Bros. Brawl online community to become that of Mario Kart DS and snaking. Sure, it leaves those who knows these techniques at an advantage, but it leaves every one else at a disadvantage, and is just no fun when you see people zipping around the track at a million miles per hour, just like how it wouldn't be fun for this majority of Smash players who don't know techniques like wavedashing, L-canceling, etc. to join an online match and be pummeled by people zipping around the stage and canceling out the lag.

I'm not sure what to say here, fine, true, whatever, but honestly most of the good people who play this have plenty of friends from SSBM to play against rather than join a random match. I for one will probably not play random matches often at all. If the majority of good players will play each other, then there really isn't a problem for those little kids who want to play the game "how it was meant to be."

Even though you can say "Just learn to do it!" doesn't change that a Wavedash/L-Cancel user is the one with the Advantage because of exploiting something in the game, even if both players are equally skilled, the one doing the exploiting gets the advantage

So, no items, fox only, final destination, mirite? What you are saying here is basically that everything is equal, but the truth is, ie. ssbm, that a Link spamming up b player will most of the time beat a running up to and trying to usmash fox. To be honest, you'd think the fox would wait it out, but unfortunately at the level you are talking about, they would just run right into the up b, especially since they don't have as much control of their characters as advanced players do.

And I'm not saying this because I can't do it, I play SSB64 and Melee at a competitive level and can L/Z-cancel and Wavedash just fine, but when I'm playing with friends and they can't commit time and practice towards Wavedashing and the like...they're not going to be having an enjoyable time playing against someone who does.

If you can't commit time to learning the advanced tactics, why are you going to tournaments? You aren't going to tournaments? Well then why are you complaining to us?

I personally think SSB's experience would benefit from it being taken out, making it so that people like my friends can have more fun with the game even if playing against someone who puts more effort into the game like me. You can accept that you lose to someone because you messed up or you acknowledge that the person you're playing is better than you, it's harder to do that when it seems like you lost because he's exploiting something to get an advantage that you're not. It levels out the playing field.

I'm sorry, my YOU ****ING MORON alarm is going off. Competitive smash IS fun, for us, we don't want to play random scrubs all the time. I'm particularly sure that if a competitive smasher goes and plays against a ton of random scrubs without any good competition, that one lone smasher wouldn't be having much fun always wining. Competition makes things fun.

Those are my two cents.

And those of you who are going to be like "Zomg not again" and flame me, don't bother to post.

The bolded are the comments, would appreciate if you replied.

 

[Noypi_GjD]

I never described you or your way of playing as cheap or dishonorable, I haven't personally mentioned anyone so far.

You bolded this -.-;;;
6. Worthy of no respect; vulgar or contemptible: a cheap gangster.
7. Stingy; miserly.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I don't see why we should be nice to scrubs who come in and talk down a community by telling us the way we play the game is cheap and dishonorable.

Honestly, **** that ****.

I understand where you are coming from, but logic and reasoning go much farther than attempting to verbally abuse the guy. If you want him to see our side of the spectrum, just explain yourself in a direct, concise manner. If he does not want to listen then maybe you should abandon the debate.

 

[Red Exodus]

I wish I could speak the language Dog speaks, because he doesn't understand I can't take him seriously.

Dog. Red X. Not. Take. You. Seriously. Please. Make. Sense.

Let me try this one more time:

Look at the site you are on. See it? Good.

Watch some smash vids posted on this site. See them? Good.

Does it look like we care about what you want? We are well established and you're making a very stupid, very futile effort to change something that was around far before you knew it existed.

Don't go into a vegetarian's fridge and expect to find meat.
Don't go to a desert and expect to find snow.
Don't go to a tournament site and expect to find casuals.

EDIT: Buzz I tried being reasonable before, unforunately some scrubs are deaf to the voice of reason. Personally, I could care less about where he stands. I just find it extremely stupid to try to change a community that has been around so long.

I also find it very insulting when people take the time to reason and all he can do is take crap out of context and go around in circles while whining about his opinions and whatnot.

 

[sugarpoultry]

Don't go into a vegetarian's fridge and expect to find meat.
Don't go to a desert and expect to find snow.
Don't go to a tournament site and expect to find casuals.

QFT!!!!!!!

 

[Elefterios]

I wish I could speak the language Dog speaks, because he doesn't understand I can't take him seriously.

Dog. Red X. Not. Take. You. Seriously. Please. Make. Sense.

Let me try this one more time:

Look at the site you are on. See it? Good.

Watch some smash vids posted on this site. See them? Good.

Does it look like we care about what you want? We are well established and you're making a very stupid, very futile effort to change something that was around far before you knew it existed.

Don't go into a vegetarian's fridge and expect to find meat.
Don't go to a desert and expect to find snow.
Don't go to a tournament site and expect to find casuals.

well said.

 

[The___cheese]

Sigh Dog is still thinking in terms of Melee. He wants a Melee 2.0 don't flame the poor fool. He thinks that taking the things the players brought to Melee out will keep the game as the how to play video commands.

Brawl will see just as big a change as Melee did if not more when its in our capable hands. People like him will be left in the dust clutching their instruction manual wondering why they suck.

Seriously though. Stop with these tired *** threads please for the sake of humanity.

 

[Shai Hulud]

I never described you or your way of playing as cheap or dishonorable, I haven't personally mentioned anyone so far.
You should respect me like I'm respecting you, regardless of my opinion towards you, because it's in the rules and is civil. Please be nice.

Wavedashing is an unintended and cheap technique then, and L-canceling is a game mechanic that was only fixed just now. Happy?

Wavedashing is not a fair technique. It's cheap and unneeded and bull****.

Because wavedashing is cheap and should be out.

cheap (chp)
adj. cheap·er, cheap·est
1.
a. Relatively low in cost; inexpensive or comparatively inexpensive.
b. Charging low prices: a cheap restaurant.
2.
a. Obtainable at a low rate of interest. Used especially of money.
b. Devalued, as in buying power: cheap dollars.
3. Achieved with little effort: a cheap victory; cheap laughs.
4. Of or considered of small value: in wartime, when life was cheap.
5. Of poor quality; inferior: a cheap toy.
6. Worthy of no respect; vulgar or contemptible: a cheap gangster.
7. Stingy; miserly.

Yeah, the level of respect is just palpable.

 

[Junpappy]

Keep in mind, even if you took away advanced tactics from a competitive smasher (someone who ACTUALLY goes to tournaments and uses advanced tactics), they would utterly **** someone who doesn't use advanced tactics because the way they approach the game is completely different than the "majority". Advanced tactics aren't what make them better players; competitive smashers flat out play more effectively than non-competitive players.

 

[Noypi_GjD]

Don't go to a tournament site and expect to find casuals.

I'm pretty sure there are a few of them lurking these forums lol.

 

[Red Exodus]

I think Dog would take much better to wobbling than WDing.

EDIT:Noypi, I sure there are some here, but at least those few either accept us for who we are or try to avoid unnecessary conflicts over nothing.

You can be casual without a community. You can't be pro without a community.

 

[sugarpoultry]

Keep in mind, even if you took away advanced tactics from a competitive smasher (someone who ACTUALLY goes to tournaments and uses advanced tactics), they would utterly **** someone who doesn't use advanced tactics because the way they approach the game is completely different than the "majority". Advanced tactics aren't what make them better players; competitive smashers flat out play more effectively than non-competitive players.

I know I asked Buzz to stop doing all that stuff, and he still killed me. O_O

 

[launchpadmcqak13]

The advanced techniques don't make it who wins or loses. Because the one who plays the most against the most people wins. Not the "advanced" tactics. The only thing that they do is extend the limit at which you can get better at the game.

As far as your argument against people not knowing, what if they put it in the beginning training video? Then would you be concerned that its in there? I think the only argument is that it is hidden, which I agree with, open it up to everyone. Sounds good.

 

[spikehappy07]

Brawl is a new game, all I gotta say. New stuff is in, some old stuff is out. Don't think competitive smashers aren't gonna find out new tactics on the first week of play. Besides, that's why there's INTERNET! People like Wak make videos so you can at least know some advanced tactics. As far as I know, this is another thread that's filling up space- and I'm wasting time. Late.

 

[DoH]

Dog, you are not debating. Seriously. You are making claims, but you can't provide warrants to substantiate those claims, thereby invalidating the aforementioned claims.

Here is an example:

Wavedashing is an unintended and cheap technique

Why do you say wavedashing is unintended? You conceded Buzz's argument about how if you look in the debug mode, the action of wavedashing is noted as 'landfall special' by the developers. Thus, they recognized the exploitation of physics, gave it a name, and kept it in. The same goes for l-cancelling, as it was transferred from SSB to Melee. You should never argue 'framer's intent' as a way to evaluate new situations; the developers had no idea what we would come up with. It's analogous to the US Constitution; it was framed over 200 years ago, and now we have issues before us that the founding fathers wouldn't have faced, such as internet privacy, the rights of minorities, terrorism, and the threat of nuclear annihilation. If we were to adopt a framework of the founders, than not only would it be flawed because a)we're not the founders, and b) they would have no conceptualization of what any of these issues are and how they affect our world today.

Your interpretation that you and your friend should be on equal footing is inherently flawed, because you can never be on equal footing with another person in any aspect. As long as there are differences between you, there can never be true equality. Your friend chose not to learn how to play with advanced techniques, and therefore is less skilled than you, as you come equipped with l-cancels and wavedashing. You attempt to limit us to pure natural talent, which mitigates the promise and rewards of hard work; if people want to be good at something, they practice. Your wish for smash reduces playing to virtually everyone's first match, where no one is really skilled at the game; this logic is horrible because it discourages growth and development, as well as removes depth from the game which not only adds to replay value, but makes it being a competitive fighter possible.

People playing on wifi will have a few options; one they can refuse to adapt and just play amongst their friends and if they run into someone who is more skilled than them, they will most likely lose. If losing becomes a problem, then they can either quit, play only with their friends, or get better by adopting advanced techs.

Even if Brawl's online scene does become dominated by advanced users, what is so wrong with that? Even if people feel discouraged by the dominance of others online, Nintendo will still have churned out a great game with lots of depth that we can enjoy for 7 years, and that's a great accomplishment. Out of all the 8 million people who bought Melee, how many of them still play on a regular basis? Probably not a lot, but to those dedicated fans who seek to become better at a game that they love, having depth is essential.

So in conclusion, your opinions about the game are arbitrary and unfounded, and therefore, in a sense, your a opinion is wrong and has no factual basis.

 

[Dogenzaka]

You bolded this -.-;;;
6. Worthy of no respect; vulgar or contemptible: a cheap gangster.
7. Stingy; miserly.

I'm talking directly about wavedashing, not your play style in general.

EDIT: Buzz I tried being reasonable before

Not here.

Yeah, the level of respect is just palpable.

To individual members? I'm respecting them.
Yet I'm still allowed to post what I think about the technique.

The advanced techniques don't make it who wins or loses. Because the one who plays the most against the most people wins. Not the "advanced" tactics.

It's not the deciding factor in who wins, but it's an advantage.

Here is an example:

That's called an opinion. You have one too.

Anyways, I just got back from my Chiropractic appointment and just like you wouldn't, I don't have the stamina to reply to 7 different posters everytime I make 1 post. It's a 7x1 ratio, and my fingers won't forgive me for it.

 

[Stormkeeper]

It comes down to two situations: skill vs luck. Either you have a game where the winner is determined by skill, or you have a game where the winner is determined completely by randomness. Games that are random are fun for the beginners who can sit down and win instantly with little or no practice ands games that are based on skill are fun for 'pros' who take the time and pay the price to become good. I personally believe that smash bros is a game that falls into the second category. I have always prided it on the fact that it is NOT a button masher!

Dogz, you say you want to even the playing field by removing 'cheating' advanced techniques so that palyers can win from skill. That is really silly and doesn't makes sense beacuse advanced techniques are harder to use and thus require skill. They in no way make a player that can use them 'God Mode'. Nor is it always an advantage. Anyone who's missed a WD either by the edge or simply air-dodged in the middle of the field knows the penalties.

So these techs are not without cost. They are a risk - meaning that if you use them correctly you can do some impressive things but if used improperly then they are actually a DISADVANTAGE! Everytime you wavedash there is a chance you'll miss it and leave yourself open. Same thing with L - cancelling because if you hold the button too long you'll end up with your shield on unexpectently which screws up your pace and movement.

I've seen LOADS of Fox players who can waveshine, drillshine etc get three stocked by nub Marth or Peach players beacuse of D-Smash and a freaking long sword with a separate hit-box (haha what do you think about these unfair advantages that require NO skill?)

What about using moves for things that aren't their obvious use such as Mario's cape or Samus' bombs as a return mechanism? Is this an unfair advantage because a player knows both that he can do this and how to execute it? Come on dude. Get with program.

Bottom line: Pros should have advantage from all angles including depth of game, secrets of the game, and control of the game.

PS There is this neat feature in the game that does exactly what you want without removing the ease of use from the noobs and the advanced depth from the pros. It's called Handicap. I recommend setting it to auto. Try it.