Melee Techniques Being Left out of Brawl

[Dogenzaka]

That is really silly and doesn't makes sense beacuse advanced techniques are harder to use and thus require skill. They in no way make a player that can use them 'God Mode'.

I know but it still leaves them at an advantage that shouldn't be there in the first place.

PS There is this neat feature in the game that does exactly what you want without removing the ease of use from the noobs and the advanced depth from the pros. It's called Handicap. I recommend setting it to auto. Try it.

It removes wavedashing and L-canceling? I've actually never used handicap.

 

[choknater]

haha DoH we should start calling it LAND FALL SPECIAL!

yo guys i'm pro i can LFS so much!

LFS FOR BRAWL!!!!

 

[Junpappy]

Why do you consider the ability to wavedash to be something other than skill?

 

[red stone]

everybody just remember that it's still a demo. i don't want anyone walking out of here thinking that the demo represents the game exactly. the characters could all easily be revamped, l-canceling put in, and a load of other stuff could change. you should consider the demo as a good rep for the game but don't expect the real thing to be a ditto

 

[Dogenzaka]

Because it's an unintended glitch that unnaturally makes the user faster.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Because it's an unintended glitch that unnaturally makes the user faster.

You really ought to reply to my last full post. I addressed this issue in detail.

 

[TheMuffinMan0311]

DaRkNeSsOfHeArT, you seemed to have left out the part where the Debug mode names any action interrupted by landing on the ground as "Landfall Special" (IE, D-Air into the ground, Teching, Fast-Fall, an Air-Dodge)

Also, this entire thread is senseless, because Wavedashing and L-Canceling are both gone. So no matter how much arguing takes place, Dogenszaka got what he wanted.

Will there be new advanced techniques, a new Metagame, possible new things for the Tourney scene to exploit? Most definitely, so you can all have your precious Metagame, and stop crying over it not being a cookie-cutter mold of Melee's

 

[Red Exodus]

Dog read Alpha Zealot's thread, you need it.

 

[Junpappy]

Because it's an unintended glitch that unnaturally makes the user faster.

That doesn't explain why it doesn't take skill to wavedash.

Will there be new advanced techniques, a new Metagame, possible new things for the Tourney scene to exploit? Most definitely, so you can all have your precious Metagame, and stop crying over it not being a cookie-cutter mold of Melee's

The metagame would exist regardless of whether people played the game competitively or not. Metagame IS NOT the use or existence of hidden tactics that the majority of people don't know about, don't use, or actively refuse to use.

 

[TheMuffinMan0311]

Metagame IS NOT the use or existence of hidden tactics that the majority of people don't know about, don't use, or actively refuse to use.

'Metagame' is a broad term usually used to define any strategy, action, or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game. To say more appropriately, to 'take something to the next level'

I was saying that you shouldn't baww your eyes out over the "Next level" not being achieved by the same exact means as Melee, or that your "next level" from Melee didn't automatically transfer when you picked up the controller and popped in your Brawl disc.

Brawl will have it's own Metagame, it's own "next level" to achieve, so don't have a tantrum because in some ways you're starting anew and have to work your way back to a new Metagame

 

[Junpappy]

I can't speak for others in this community, but I for one don't give a **** whether they keep wavedashing in or not. I realize that Brawl will have it's own set of tricks, combos, and strategies to discover and I don't care that it won't be the same as melee.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Purists will play Smash 64.

Dylan will play Melee.

The rest of us will play Brawl.

 

[TheMuffinMan0311]

Thus, my comment was not directed at sensible players such as yourself =P

Also, I love Smash 64, I play it as much (if not more) than Melee

Dylan will play Melee.

SAKURAAAAAIIIIII

*charges DBZ type attack*

 

[Dogenzaka]

Ah. Muffin is here to save the day.
And to whoever asked, I would reply to your post, but can you condense it into a smaller version for me? I really detest having to reply to 7 or 8 different poster's arguments.

PS: I also, prefer 64 to Melee, especially its physics engine.

 

[TheMuffinMan0311]

I just got everything to settle down slightly and you're going to start the whole thing up again, Dogen <.<

 

[Dogenzaka]

Oh uhh...........sorry that wasn't my intention :< sorry.

 

[Junpappy]

PS: I also, prefer 64 to Melee, especially its physics engine.

LOL!!!!!

Melee's physics engine is MUCH better than 64's physics engine. In the 64, there are WAAAAAY too many zero-to-death combos. Have you ever seen Isai playing the game? That's way more cheap than a couple of tactics that make people move faster.

 

[Dogenzaka]

Melee's physics engine is MUCH better than 64's physics engine.

It might be better in your opinion, I still like it though.

Have you ever seen Isai playing the game?

Nope.

 

[Junpappy]

Then you really need to learn more about what you're discussing before you try to explain to people that know a lot more than you about this game why we're wrong.

 

[TheMuffinMan0311]

Uhh, did he claim to know it's inner workings and everything about it? No, he said that he PREFERRED it

You're going to try and tell him what his preferences have to be now?

 

[greenblob]

I'm pretty sure he'll hate the fact that you can't DI after playing a round with someone who can combo.

 

[Dogenzaka]

Then you really need to learn more about what you're discussing before you try to explain to people that know a lot more than you about this game why we're wrong.

Muffin basically said it for me.

Also, SSB64 is a game. Simply because I have never heard of a video which you are talking about, doesn't mean I can't talk about SSBMelee, or that I have no clue what I'm talking about.

 

[Junpappy]

Muffin basically said it for me.

Also, SSB64 is a game. Simply because I have never heard of a video which you are talking about, doesn't mean I can't talk about SSBMelee, or that I have no clue what I'm talking about.

...but you call advanced tactics cheap, and you also call them glitches. That to me is proof that you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Linkster47]

Now before anyone replys to my post, I agree with CREA, I don't care if WD is removed. I only use WD for Marth and J Puff, not my main, Link. However, I am still going to argue that they should be in, even if it's already determined that they're not.

Well, I do not understand why you think they being an advantage should make them removed. Smash is full of differant characters, some better than others, with differant moves. Every character is unique and that in itself is an advantage. You getting to pick the stage is an advantage as well. Even being better than someone is an advantage in it's own way. AD techs can be used by any character, not useing them would be like playing someone else who uses your character and saying them useing a move you don't is an advantage.

 

[Dogenzaka]

...but you call advanced tactics cheap, and you also call them glitches. That to me is proof that you don't know what you're talking about.

To me it's evidence that you don't know what you are talking about.

Wavedashing is a glitch. L-canceling is a hidden technique that probably wasn't intended in the first place, and in my opinion, it's good that both of these are out of Brawl.

Well, I do not understand why you think they being an advantage should make them removed.

Simply because that. It's an advantage one shouldn't have. Canceling out the natural lag and making yourself unnaturally fast is an advantage that shouldn't be there.

I just spent a few hours competitively enjoying SSB64 online with my friends. We didn't use any of these techniques, not even L-canceling, and we still had a lot of fun and it was clear Muffin was the best out of us. Yet somehow some of you believe it's impossible to be competitive without these techniques in the game.

 

[Junpappy]

To me it's evidence that you don't know what you are talking about.

Wavedashing is a glitch. L-canceling is a hidden technique that probably wasn't intended in the first place, and in my opinion, it's good that both of these are out of Brawl.

You're going to have to go to dictionary.com again and define "glitch" because I don't know anyone that I consider to be knowledgeable about Melee that considers wavedashing a glitch. L-canceling has been around since SSB64; the only reason they would remove it is to cater to people *****ing about it being there to begin with.

 

[greenblob]

We have more fun playing competitively than by playing "un-competitively" (or however you want to word it).

Besides, both players have that advantage. You might as well say that something as simple as grabbing the ledge is an advantage that shouldn't be there.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

I has a question.

Why is it that whenever it is said that tourney players don't win because they use advanced techniques, they then turn right around and say that the casual's cant win because they DON'T use advanced techniques? Am I the only one seeing this...slight hypocracy?

 

[Junpappy]

I has a question.

Why is it that whenever it is said that tourney players don't win because they use advanced techniques, they then turn right around and say that the casual's cant win because they DON'T use advanced techniques? Am I the only one seeing this...slight hypocracy?

What's hypocritical about that?

 

[Dogenzaka]

You're going to have to go to dictionary.com again and define "glitch" because I don't know anyone that I consider to be knowledgeable about Melee that considers wavedashing a glitch.

Accept it.

L-canceling has been around since SSB64;

And? Melee had a 10 month development cycle. I haven't even heard of L-canceling until about a year ago, and I'm an avid internet poster. If Sakurai's team is so busy, what makes you think they've even heard about L-canceling that they needed to take it out? They have lives you know.

Why is it that whenever it is said that tourney players don't win because they use advanced techniques, they then turn right around and say that the casual's cant win because they DON'T use advanced techniques? Am I the only one seeing this...slight hypocracy?

I didn't say that, but you lost me there o.o

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

It's hypocritical because it's like this. Tournement players say they don't need advanced techs to win, while saying that casuals do. Now think about it.

If tournement players don't NEED them to win, why should Casuals? Maybe there are some casuals out there who are ****ed good at the game, but are just short of WDing and L-canceling? There's just something strange about the entire situation. Maybe hypocritcal isn't the right word, but it doesn't seem right to me.

P.S. And I never said you said anything Dogenzaka. It was a general response I've seen in many threads and I've happened to ask it here.

 

[Junpappy]

Accept it.

Is that the only thing you have to say when I ask you to explain why wavedashing is a glitch?

Casuals don't need advanced tactics to win, neither do tournament players. Tournament players approach the game much more intelligently than casuals do, thus they usually beat the casuals.

 

[Dogenzaka]

Is that the only thing you have to say when I ask you to explain why wavedashing is a glitch?

There are other things others and I could call it. Like invisible bunny ears. Or the oilslick technique.

Have you ever seen a bunch of wavedashers in a match together? It's nothing but zipping around the stage with an occasional combo until somebody dies lol.

Realize I'm slightly joking around now before you get all defensive.

Tournement players say they don't need advanced techs to win, while saying that casuals do. Now think about it.

Ah yes, I understand.

If tournement players don't NEED them to win, why should Casuals? Maybe there are some casuals out there who are ****ed good at the game, but are just short of WDing and L-canceling? There's just something strange about the entire situation. Maybe hypocritcal isn't the right word, but it doesn't seem right to me.

I do agree. There were a few here saying they don't need wavedashing or the other techniques to distinguish them as good or make them a good player, but then they say that everyone else needs to learn them if they want to be worthy of being called a "good player".

 

[Angrylobster]

To me it's evidence that you don't know what you are talking about.

Wavedashing is a glitch. L-canceling is a hidden technique that probably wasn't intended in the first place, and in my opinion, it's good that both of these are out of Brawl.



Simply because that. It's an advantage one shouldn't have. Canceling out the natural lag and making yourself unnaturally fast is an advantage that shouldn't be there.

I still don't understand how its an unfair advantage when ANY player has the ability to learn how to do it.

 

[Junpappy]

There are other things others and I could call it. Like invisible bunny ears. Or the oilslick technique.

Have you ever seen a bunch of wavedashers in a match together? It's nothing but zipping around the stage with an occasional combo until somebody dies lol.

Realize I'm slightly joking around now before you get all defensive.



Ah yes, I understand.



I do agree. There were a few here saying they don't need wavedashing or the other techniques to distinguish them as good or make them a good player, but then they say that everyone else needs to learn them if they want to be worthy of being called a "good player".

Ok, seeing as how you completely avoided addressing why wavedashing is a glitch, I'm going to assume that you don't know why you think it's a glitch, other than the fact that it's not in the instruction manual, the "How to Play" video, and because the majority of people who own this game don't know about it.

Advanced tactics make people faster, but more importantly, it changes their mindset and their outlook on how to play melee. You take away advanced tactics from any decent tournament player, and he will still beat anyone who's never heard about advanced tactics or anyone who's never practiced them.

 

[Blatherskite]

Tournament players don't need advanced techniques to beat casuals because casauls are less experienced and have poor mind games. Casuals need advanced techniques to beat tournament players because in light of my first statement, they need all the help they can get.

 

[TheMuffinMan0311]

Anybody has the capability to bring a gun to a Sword spar, that doesn't change that I was entering the ring with the intention of a Sword spar, and you brought in something simply for the sake of winning

The average guy is going into Smash bros expecting some good 'ol fun, but when they hit the Online they'd be hit with Lag-cancels, wavedashes, things that they don't even understand what is happening to them. Is the game on Lightning Mode? Why is everyone moving so fast? Why can they all hit me and shine me with no break in between?

They'll be forced to adapt to the 'advanced' playstyle simply if they want to have a chance at a fun experience online, otherwise they'd have to abandon online entirely. Hence why Mario Kart DS is one of the least played Nintendo Wifi titles nowadays, Snaking ruined the online for anyone that couldn't commit the time and wreck their thumbs just so that they wouldn't get lapped 2 times over, so most people just abandoned trying to play Online

The entire point, the major factor why Dogen even has these views, is because of online play. If there wasn't online, go crazy with the Advanced Techniques, not like I have to deal with you unless I'm actually going to a Tourney, or if me and my buddies want to play that way. However, Online Play changes that, because how this "Metagame' plays out really affects the Online experience, and you have to take into consideration how much the Metagame would wreck anyone's enjoyment of Online play who can't commit to it as much as you can.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Bad at mindgames? If it wasn't for the fact that my main is so ****ed slow, I could mindgame people left right front and center! (Link BTW) And even without speed, I can still play a vicious game with him (Minus the adv. techs). I seriously do not think I'm that bad, but when Fox comes zipping at my face at 90 MPH and 0-Death waveshine's me, something's SERIOUSLY wrong.

 

[Junpappy]

People will most likely suck it up and adapt to the advanced gameplay, or most people will end up only playing with Friends, as a result of not enjoying playing against people of their skill level (both casuals and tournament goers alike).

 

[Zephyr]

It took me FIVE MINUTES to master snaking. MASTER it.

Jesus, you people john too much for me to handle.

By the way, anyone who thinks that we're a seclusive little community that doesn't want anyone to join it, ask yourself: How the hell did I get here?

I'm not going to bother crushing arguments made against competitive play since the link posted to Sirlin.net in this thread has gone COMPLETELY UNACKNOWLEDGED, making arguing against you scrubs a complete waste of my time.

Just watch, you'll quote this and give me a strawman argument and I'll laugh and go back to what I was doing.