Melee Techniques Being Left out of Brawl

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Oh god, that arrogant ******* Play to win ****?

I ****ING HATE IT!

WHO THE **** DOESN'T PLAY TO WIN?!?!

When I pick up a controller, my first thought isn't "Hey, I plan on losing this match!"

****ing *******.

 

[TheMuffinMan0311]

One thing I really love about you guys, is your usage of "Scrub", because Scrubs origins comes from someone who 'scrubs' away all the features and options in a game into a barebones shadow of what it once was.

Now, you use it to say "lol ur a scrub cuz teh imense depth of teh WAVEDASH iz 2 much for you', and never bother you look in the mirror and see "NO ITEMS, NO SPECIAL MODES, FOX ONLY, WAVEDASHING INTO A SHFFL'D AERIAL ON FINAL DESTINATION, BECAUSE IT'S GREAT ALMIGHTY FLATNESS ALLOWS FOR THE MOST SKILL" of how you play

You're the ones 'scrubbing' away what makes Smash unique. If you want the source of your skill to come form proper timing and a series of exact button presses, play MVC or Street Fighter

 

[Junpappy]

You're the ones 'scrubbing' away what makes Smash unique. If you want the source of your skill to come form proper timing and a series of exact button presses, play MVC or Street Fighter

.....then what defines skill in smash bros? Your ability to do dash attacks into your opponents and then using a forward smash and hoping it hits?

 

[Angrylobster]

Oh god, that arrogant ******* Play to win ****?

I ****ING HATE IT!

WHO THE **** DOESN'T PLAY TO WIN?!?!

When I pick up a controller, my first thought isn't "Hey, I plan on losing this match!"

****ing *******.

How can you say you're playing to win when you aren't using every tool at your disposal to accomplish this?

 

[TheMuffinMan0311]

^Maybe because some people aren't so ego-dependent that their sole reason to play a game is winning?

Reminds me of Dylan_TNGA "What's the point of playing a game if I'm not winning and I'm not making money?"

 

[Angrylobster]

^Maybe because some people aren't so ego-dependent that their sole reason to play a game is winning?

Reminds me of Dylan_TNGA "What's the point of playing a game if I'm not winning and I'm not making money?"

Then that would mean he isn't playing the game to win, so he shouldn't say that he is

And jsut like the article says, playing to win IS fun. Its what breeds new strategies and techniques. If you're just playing for fun thats fine, but the game is going to become stagnant if you don't try to push the envelope.

 

[Blatherskite]

Ogre, your problem had to do with Tiers, not advanced techs.

Muffin, you forget that scrubs are marked by their self-serving bias. They scrub features away because they can't win if people use them. Tournament rules favor everyone. We don't play by them because we're scared of losing.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

How can you say you're playing to win when you aren't using every tool at your disposal to accomplish this?

I can also say I'm playing to win because my intent isn't to lose. Any more than that and you're just trying to moralize something that is totally ****ed up.

 

[Zephyr]

Ogre, it's not worth it. Just leave. They're not going to change and they're not going to see reason.

 

[Angrylobster]

I can also say I'm playing to win because my intent isn't to lose. Any more than that and you're just trying to moralize something that is totally ****ed up.

Your intent isn't to lose, but your mind set is holding you back from playing to win. Not everyone is going to follow your "moral code" and you shouldn't expect them to

 

[TheMuffinMan0311]

Ogre, it's not worth it. Just leave. They're not going to change and they're not going to see reason.

I find it funny because Ogre isn't on your side of the argument

I feel like I'm in a Karate Kid movie, "YOU MUST BELIEVE IN YOURSELF, YOUR MIND IS HOLDING BACK YOUR POWER, UNLOCK YOUR POTENTIAL BY BELIEVING THAT YOU ARE THE BEST"

It baffles me that people are this way about a video game. Why not put that effort towards planning for your future, investing stock, setting up a 401K?

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Okay fine, maybe not having the intention to lose isn't the same as winning, but as long as I have the intention of winning, that should be all that matters.

 

[Zephyr]

He holds my attitude on playing to win. That's good enough for me.

By the way, a word's connotative meaning changes easily when used from group to group. Ex: The N-word. That shouldn't be that hard to figure out.

 

[Junpappy]

It's a shame I've never met one of you(people who call everything they don't do cheap) in person.

 

[Dogenzaka]

.....then what defines skill in smash bros? Your ability to do dash attacks into your opponents and then using a forward smash and hoping it hits?

Time Limit - Get the most KO's in the time limit.
Stock match - Be the last one alive.

Technically if you can do that, you have the most skill.

Tournament rules favor everyone.

They usually don't.

It's a shame I've never met one of you(people who call everything they don't do cheap) in person.

So because I think wavedashing/L-canceling is a cheap technique, it means I don't know how to do it? Really?

You take away advanced tactics from any decent tournament player, and he will still beat anyone who's never heard about advanced tactics or anyone who's never practiced them.

Of course he will, but at least his win won't include the factor "I use unnecessary and hidden tactics to make myself faster and cancel out lag".

 

[Angrylobster]

It baffles me that people are this way about a video game. Why not put that effort towards planning for your future, investing stock, setting up a 401K?

How does that have anything to do with the argument?

 

[Zephyr]

No, it means you don't do it. Don't twist his words, especially when they're right above what you're typing. That's just plain idiocy, no lie. =/

 

[Junpappy]

Time Limit - Get the most KO's in the time limit.
Stock match - Be the last one alive.

Technically if you can do that, you have the most skill.

But what if someone achieves those goals using "cheap" tactics or moves?

So because I think wavedashing/L-canceling is a cheap technique, it means I don't know how to do it? Really?

It's a shame I've never met one of you(people who call everything they don't do cheap) in person.

Where did I even mention anything about knowing how to do those things?

 

[TheMuffinMan0311]

(people who call everything they don't do cheap)

I'd say right about there

See:

"And I'm not saying this because I can't do it, I play SSB64 and Melee at a competitive level and can L/Z-cancel and Wavedash just fine, but when I'm playing with friends and they can't commit time and practice towards Wavedashing and the like...they're not going to be having an enjoyable time playing against someone who does."

He's not calling it cheap because he can't do it, he's calling it a glitch/exploit that it is, and that it rightfully should be left out.

Also see:

"You can accept that you lose to someone because you messed up or you acknowledge that the person you're playing is better than you, it's harder to do that when it seems like you lost because he's exploiting something to get an advantage that you're not."

You're absolutely right. If you're good at this game, you'll win regardless, but not because you exploited something your opponent did not.

 

[Dogenzaka]

Bad at mindgames? If it wasn't for the fact that my main is so ****ed slow, I could mindgame people left right front and center! (Link BTW) And even without speed, I can still play a vicious game with him (Minus the adv. techs). I seriously do not think I'm that bad, but when Fox comes zipping at my face at 90 MPH and 0-Death waveshine's me, something's SERIOUSLY wrong.

I'm getting the feeling the internet has turned the phrase "mind games" into a meme-ish word that can now be used as a verb and I am afraid to ask what it means.

But what if someone achieves those goals using "cheap" tactics or moves?

And that's where the problem lies.

How does that have anything to do with the argument?

It doesn't, necessarily, but he brings up a remarkable point.

Anybody has the capability to bring a gun to a Sword spar, that doesn't change that I was entering the ring with the intention of a Sword spar, and you brought in something simply for the sake of winning

The average guy is going into Smash bros expecting some good 'ol fun, but when they hit the Online they'd be hit with Lag-cancels, wavedashes, things that they don't even understand what is happening to them. Is the game on Lightning Mode? Why is everyone moving so fast? Why can they all hit me and shine me with no break in between?

They'll be forced to adapt to the 'advanced' playstyle simply if they want to have a chance at a fun experience online, otherwise they'd have to abandon online entirely. Hence why Mario Kart DS is one of the least played Nintendo Wifi titles nowadays, Snaking ruined the online for anyone that couldn't commit the time and wreck their thumbs just so that they wouldn't get lapped 2 times over, so most people just abandoned trying to play Online

The entire point, the major factor why Dogen even has these views, is because of online play. If there wasn't online, go crazy with the Advanced Techniques, not like I have to deal with you unless I'm actually going to a Tourney, or if me and my buddies want to play that way. However, Online Play changes that, because how this "Metagame' plays out really affects the Online experience, and you have to take into consideration how much the Metagame would wreck anyone's enjoyment of Online play who can't commit to it as much as you can.

Once again, Muffin said it all for me.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

OK, well, don't play online then.

We do not want to play you there anyway.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

OK, well, don't play online then.

We do not want to play you there anyway.

And you plan on stopping people?

 

[TheMuffinMan0311]

Ruin online of the majority for the sake of the minority, great idea!

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Ruin online of the majority for the sake of the minority, great idea!

I did with Mario Strikers Charged. I may as well continue...

 

[Dogenzaka]

Jesus, you people john too much for me to handle.

Since when is "John" a verb?

OK, well, don't play online then.

We do not want to play you there anyway.

That's the thing. I shouldn't have to miss out on a large gameplay mode simply because of people who like to zip around the stage and cancel lag like as if the whole level was a giant oil slick. I shouldn't have to miss out on Mario Kart's online mode because of snaking, but I do, because the only way people are winning now is "who can snake the best". I can snake, not the best, but it's still a stupid mechanic that the game could have been without.

Also, thankfully, wavedashing and L-canceling IS out of Brawl, as far as we know, so that Nintendo doesn't have their customer support lines buzzing with on-hold calls about "PEOPLE ARE CHEATING IN MY BRAWLZ ONLIEN. THEYR LIEK MOOVIN AROUND ALL FASTZ AND EVERYTHINGS ON ECSTASY. REFUND NAOW."

Just watch, you'll quote this and give me a strawman argument and I'll laugh and go back to what I was doing.

K

 

[Junpappy]

(people who call everything they don't do cheap)

See:

"And I'm not saying this because I can't do it, I play SSB64 and Melee at a competitive level and can L/Z-cancel and Wavedash just fine, but when I'm playing with friends and they can't commit time and practice towards Wavedashing and the like...they're not going to be having an enjoyable time playing against someone who does."

He's not calling it cheap because he can't do it, he's calling it a glitch/exploit that it is, and that it rightfully should be left out.

Where did I even mention anything about knowing how to do those things?

Are you intentionally ignoring my post?

Also see:

"You can accept that you lose to someone because you messed up or you acknowledge that the person you're playing is better than you, it's harder to do that when it seems like you lost because he's exploiting something to get an advantage that you're not."

You're absolutely right. If you're good at this game, you'll win regardless, but not because you exploited something your opponent did not.

In that case, you lost because you chose to not exploit something that your opponent DID choose to exploit.

 

[Angrylobster]

The entire point, the major factor why Dogen even has these views, is because of online play. If there wasn't online, go crazy with the Advanced Techniques, not like I have to deal with you unless I'm actually going to a Tourney, or if me and my buddies want to play that way. However, Online Play changes that, because how this "Metagame' plays out really affects the Online experience, and you have to take into consideration how much the Metagame would wreck anyone's enjoyment of Online play who can't commit to it as much as you can.

Isn't that what friends lists are for? If someone using all the techniques available to them annoys random guy so much, he can find people on gamefaqs with a similiar mind set to play with online.

 

[TheMuffinMan0311]

Are you intentionally ignoring my post?.

You: "'Shame Ive never met one of you (people who call everything they don't do cheap) "

Let's see here, you say "one of you", and then what do you state 'one of you' is? "Someone who call everything they don't do cheap"

Well, let's see here, he's said multiple times throughout the thread that when in a competitive environment, it's either Wavedash or be shunned by everyone else, so clearly he DOES do it, therefore your statement of him being "Someone who calls everything they don't do cheap", is incorrect

In that case, you lost because you chose to not exploit something that your opponent DID choose to exploit.

Point being the 'exploiting a glitch' part

Isn't that what friends lists are for? If someone using all the techniques available to them annoys random guy so much, he can find people on gamefaqs with a similiar mind set to play with online.

Or, it could not be there at all, and that way everyone wins.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Dogenzaka, they don't care about morals or any of that stuff. To them, it's all about winning and everything else can go down the crapper. People have to match their level of play in order to compete. Don't argue, you won't go anywhere. Just sit down and hope that maybe Brawl will give some of the better casuals a chance.

 

[Dogenzaka]

Isn't that what friends lists are for?

I guess if my friends aren't online at that particular moment I'm forced to not play at all huh? That's not how it should work.

 

[Angrylobster]

I guess if my friends aren't online at that particular moment I'm forced to not play at all huh? That's not how it should work.

Don't casual players hugely outnumber the more hardcore players? Your chances of finding new friends with a similiar mind set to yours is rather large admittedly.

 

[FalconPunch]

Before I post in this thread I would like you all to know that I have read all 18 pages of this "argument" (more like a slaughterhouse). I can't understand most of the reasonings that Dogenzaka has. First, you say that the wavedashers make up the minority the 2% of the smash community, yet you say that when the casual gamer goes online, he's suddenly bombarded with these said wavedashers. They contradicts your own minority argument so that can be thrown out the window. Secondly, I personally feel that if a technique is performable by both people than how is it unfair. It's basically choosing whether you want to use it or not. I would also like to know your definition of a glitch. Also let's say there are 2 games: Melee1 and Melee2. Now Melee1 is exactly like Melee2 except in Melee one you can wavedash and l-cancel. Now you the so-called 98% of people don't know about it then what is the difference between Melee1 and Melee2? I'll post more later, but tis is all I can remember for now. I am open to having a discussion and I will not flame you.

 

[Dogenzaka]

Don't casual players hugely outnumber the more hardcore players? Your chances of finding new friends with a similiar mind set to yours is rather large admittedly.

And as usual I probably have a limited amount of friends I can add.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Before I post in this thread I would like you all to know that I have read all 18 pages of this "argument" (more like a slaughterhouse). I can't understand most of the reasonings that Dogenzaka has. First, you say that the wavedashers make up the minority the 2% of the smash community, yet you say that when the casual gamer goes online, he's suddenly bombarded with these said wavedashers. They contradicts your own minority argument so that can be thrown out the window. Secondly, I personally feel that if a technique is performable by both people than how is it unfair. It's basically choosing whether you want to use it or not. I would also like to know your definition of a glitch. Also let's say there are 2 games: Melee1 and Melee2. Now Melee1 is exactly like Melee2 except in Melee one you can wavedash and l-cancel. Now you the so-called 98% of people don't know about it then what is the difference between Melee1 and Melee2? I'll post more later, but tis is all I can remember for now. I am open to having a discussion and I will not flame you.

Well, the adv. players may be a minority, but there will still be quite a number of them. Smash Fans are a VERY large group. Even 1000 out of 1000000000 is still quite a bit. And think of it this way. I'm willing to bet my left shoe that 90% of them will be playing online in order to "pwn n00bs"

 

[Junpappy]

Point being the 'exploiting a glitch' part



Or, it could not be there at all, and that way everyone wins.

Its your own **** fault if you choose not to exploit something that someone you're playing against DOES choose to exploit. If you lose because of it, you shouldn't call your opponent cheap, because you have the ability to exploit it just as much as he does.

Dogenzaka, they don't care about morals or any of that stuff. To them, it's all about winning and everything else can go down the crapper. People have to match their level of play in order to compete. Don't argue, you won't go anywhere. Just sit down and hope that maybe Brawl will give some of the better casuals a chance.

Casuals still won't stand a chance against the "immoral(ROFL)" players because they're only going to play the way they want to play it, not the way that is most effective. I'm also sure that most of them won't ***** about losing to someone who does stuff that they don't do, simply because they most likely won't care enough to ***** like you guys do. If you have friends, who are ACTUALLY friends, then you can play without using your advanced tactics when you're with them, and play with advanced tactics if you actually enjoy playing smash the way the swf community plays it. If you don't like playing smash that way, then don't ***** about it and ruin it for the people who DO like using advanced tactics. You don't HAVE to play the way the creators of the game want you to play. Ever hear of DotA? The most popular game on Battle.net? It's an application for WarCraft III that Blizzard didn't intend for. Does it make it cheap? Does it make it wrong and immoral to play that map or any other map that Blizzard didn't make?

 

[FalconPunch]

Well, the adv. players may be a minority, but there will still be quite a number of them. Smash Fans are a VERY large group. Even 1000 out of 1000000000 is still quite a bit. And think of it this way. I'm willing to bet my left shoe that 90% of them will be playing online in order to "pwn n00bs"

I think it's gonna be the exact opposite. They'll either play IRL or with a friends list to avoid the newbs. I doubt it will be fun for them to easily win without trying. 1000 out of 1000000000 is still hugely favored against them and as I said, most of them wouldn't even be in random to begin with. (Especially after seeing the GBD boards lol)

 

[Zephyr]

I don't like playing noobs because, honestly, it's just a slaughter. Much of life is the search for equals in whatever one strives for. I always try to play against those equal to or greater than my skill level, otherwise I just get bored and my gameplay deteriorates due to lack of the challenge necessary for me to keep my egde.

 

[Angrylobster]

Oh yeah, Dogenzeka I know I read a post by you where you consider combos a fair aspect of play. Its funny that you say that, because the first time that combos were included in a fighting game, they were a glitch/unintentional. This fighting game is Street Fighter 2. Now my question is this, since most every fighting game has taken the building blocks from Street Fighter 2 (including smash) would you consider combos unfair in smash? Would you call combos unfair if they were used in street fighter?

 

[TheMuffinMan0311]

Its your own **** fault if you choose not to exploit something that someone you're playing against DOES choose to exploit. If you lose because of it, you shouldn't call your opponent cheap, because you have the ability to exploit it just as much as he does.

Point being that 'unfairly exploiting a glitch' part

See; Gun to a Sword fight

Oh yeah, Dogenzeka I know I read a post by you where you consider combos a fair aspect of play. Its funny that you say that, because the first time that combos were included in a fighting game, they were a glitch/unintentional. This fighting game is Street Fighter 2. Now my question is this, since most every fighting game has taken the building blocks from Street Fighter 2 (including smash) would you consider combos unfair? Would you call combos unfair if they were used in street fighter?

Well first off that is entirely stupid, because Street Fighter is not Smash Bros, so why say that "Street Fighter does this, and Smash is in the same genre as Street Fighter, so OMG!1!"

Also, Combos are detailed in both the Manual and How to Play video, and are part of experimentation within the games alloted abilities. Exploiting physics glitches to eliminate the lag that attacks were intended to have, slide across the ground giving unnatural speed to characters, etc. were not

 

[Dogenzaka]

yet you say that when the casual gamer goes online, he's suddenly bombarded with these said wavedashers.

Will not these wavedashers (hardcore players) play online as soon as they can?
Also, I didn't say bombarded, I said that people will come in contact with them, just like people come in contact with snakers in Mario Kart, even though the minority of Mario Kart players know how.

It's basically choosing whether you want to use it or not.

Some people can't learn it or pull it off or don't have time to do it. They just want to play.

Now you the so-called 98%

Never made that statistic.

Thanks for having an open discussion and not flaming.

Its your own **** fault if you choose not to exploit something that someone you're playing against DOES choose to exploit. If you lose because of it, you shouldn't call your opponent cheap, because you have the ability to exploit it just as much as he does.

If it's such a legit and fully fair technique tell me why someone "created" it and why Nintendo hasn't talked about it?

Casuals still won't stand a chance against the "immoral(ROFL)" players because they're only going to play the way they want to play it, not the way that is most effective.

Holy ****. Most effective? Nobody's trying to find the most efficient way to pwn in a video game. It's about having fun. Or at least that's what video games used to be about.