Melee Techniques Being Left out of Brawl

[Noypi_GjD]

Flaming much?

Not only is it flaming. He is making an incorrect generalization of the posters in this thread, way to show off your intelligence Digital Angel. Wait... did you just call yourself an idiot?

 

[Dogenzaka]

FAIL

That is all.

Get out if you're not going to discuss properly without flames.

Wavedashing is not a glitch. L-canceling is an official technique.

Wavedashing is an unintended and cheap technique then, and L-canceling is a game mechanic that was only fixed just now. Happy?

So, the game should cater to you?

I can L-cancel and wavedash. I'd be fine with other people doing it with me. But it doesn't cater to the others out there. So how does that cater to me?

I agree, but you want everyone to suck so you can win more.

How does that make sense? We'd all be on the same playing field, distinguished only by skill.

Using L-canceling means I'm unskilled? It just means I have a brain >_>

It means you took the time to learn it when we're just the minority of Smash players that know how to do it.

Exactly, so you should be able to win without so many cheaters getting in your way.

If people have to cheat to win then that's pathetic.

Exactly, so you should be able to win without so many cheaters getting in your way.

I know how to wavedash and L-cancel lol.

Which ones? Wavedashing is supposedly out, but L-canceling is probably still in.

I thought someone here said it was out?

Where are these people who supposedly agree with you? I know they are out there, but they are not very outspoken.

Check pages 1, 2 and 3. I think 5 too.

You are basically saying that if you went one-on-one with the world's best basketball player, his advantage is "unfair" because he has played in the NBA for X number of years.

If someone used a cheap technique to make themself faster in NBA 08 for Xbox 360, I'd consider that unfair.

 

[Goldkirby]

Hey Dog, I don't think you realize that even if they take out the current advanced techniques, people who are good at the game will just find new techniques to exploit, making the playing field a so called "unfair" in your opinion.

Guess what? Life in general isn't fair. If you think that life is "fair" then you are deluded. In the working world people who get promoted aren't always the ones most qualified for the job, it really depends on how many allies they make, and how visible they make themselves.

You also probably aren't a true competetive player of any game, since you seem to think that these advanced techniques are not fair. It is also not really knowing how to do advanced techniques that helps you, but the application of these tactics. I've seen lots of stupid people who know how to wavedash and shffl, but they will wavedash and shffl right into my smashes. That doesn't seem to provide any advantage there, it actually hinders them. I would say every other fighting game probably has more of a gap between pros and newbies. Take Capcom vs. SNK 2 for example, there is a little glitch called roll canceling, which basically gives you invincibility for the first 20ish or so frames of a special move. Marvel vs. Capcom 2 is possibly more broken then any other game still played today, after all it has semi-infinites and other techniques that would overwhelm new players, a type of guard crush glitch that with meter, makes you eat a super if you are in the air, and lots of other little quirks. There is no such thing as a fair game, and it's either step up and embrace the competition, or shut up.

I know that as soon as the game comes out, I will be looking for new glitches to give an advantage over other player, along with learning the system of the game and what has priority over other attacks. That is what the smart player does. If anyone plays you and calls you cheap, then you are doing the right thing, as long as you are not doing some glitch that makes the game unplayable such as freezing the game, freezing the other character, or something of that extemity. Wavedashing isn't even the most important technique in Melee, L-canceling is probably more important, and it was put in the game on purpose.

You seem to think that the game should be made as an even playing ground for all people, but realistically it's never going to happen. There are going to be things that the developers never intended that will become a part of the high-level metagame eventually. I recommend that you read David Sirlin's "Playing to Win" book, which is available to read on his site for free. Maybe then you will realize that the mentality you have towards the game right now is a scrub mentality. It doesn't matter that you think you are a competetive player, since the actual MENTALITY that you have is that of a scrub. Also scrubs are different from newbies. If you don't know the difference, google that ****.

I actually don't care if they leave Melee techniques out of Brawl, since I know myself and the rest of the true competetive community will just find new ways to play the game and make it so called "unfair" in your opinion. We will also thoroughly enjoy doing so.

 

[Xengri]

No, that's just a flamebait not an argument.

Can you blame me? I actually tried to have a decent argument with this guy, but instead he just quotes some of my phrases which btw "conveniently" happen to not have any of my arguments in them. So forget this, why should I care with he thinks anyway? He obviously just wanted attention, which i sadly rewarded him with....

Maybe if he finds some good counter arguments ito my earlier post, then I might actually reply with something serious.

 

[kilroy]

isn't this all sort of moot now?

 

[Empty-_-]

Get out if you're not going to discuss properly without flames.



Wavedashing is an unintended and cheap technique then, and L-canceling is a game mechanic that was only fixed just now. Happy?

http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm
This has been posted all over but you somehow have never read it I guess.
QQ more.

 

[Toesrus]

"a decent player and a decent player that knows l-cancelling and wavedashing."
if he knew l-cancelling and wavedashing, he would be more than decent compared to the other. it still takes skill to pull off the techniques and when to use them. and if someone cant do them, they do not have enough skill to. justl like snakers in MKDS. ive tried it and its very hard. they have the skill in that game which i dont.

 

[twerk_face]

But if you're not good, you can't L-cancel or wavedash.

Get the picture?

IMO, it just is way too big a gap. Like, i have friends who are incredible at the game, about as good as you can be without l-cancel/wavedashing. i'm not. i love this game intensly, and have tried to learn to wavedash, and honestly think that it is just too hard for me. now you may just say "well ok then your bad" well i kinda think yeah, but the margin from someone like my really good friend w/o wavedashing to people who can wavedash is just too big. the time input needed to learn to WD is just so high that it leaves really good casual players at way too much of a disadvantage. Its kinda like the whole WoW thing with raiding. Even dedicated players have to raid once they hit 70 or the games over for them. and raiding is hela hard and time consuming. it would just make it more fun for more people. i totally agree w/ whoever started this thread.

 

[Red Exodus]

You can learn WD in 30 minutes or an hour. If that's too much time for you then the tournament scene is not for you.

 

[Dogenzaka]

Hey Dog, I don't think you realize that even if they take out the current advanced techniques, people who are good at the game will just find new techniques to exploit, making the playing field a so called "unfair" in your opinion.

I realize this, but hopefully it's not as dramatic of something like wavedashing.

If that's too much time for you then the tournament scene is not for you.

But it's unfair to those who want to take advantage of random player matches in Brawl.

Can you blame me? I actually tried to have a decent argument with this guy, but instead he just quotes some of my phrases which btw "conveniently" happen to not have any of my arguments in it. So forget, why should I care with he thinks anyway? He obviously just wanted attention, which i sadly rewarded him with....

Yes I can blame you. You're not allowed to flame period. I'm frustrated with you but I haven't flamed you, and if you want a decent argument, try not sounding like a rude flaming poster.

I quote ALL of your phrases. If you don't care what I think, you wouldn't post here.

You're not one to say whether I wanted attention or not, I simply wanted to post my opinion. I could technically say you're just posting here for attention, but that'd be unbased considering I don't know your intentions.

IMO, it just is way too big a gap. Like, i have friends who are incredible at the game, about as good as you can be without l-cancel/wavedashing. i'm not. i love this game intensly, and have tried to learn to wavedash, and honestly think that it is just too hard for me. now you may just say "well ok then your bad" well i kinda think yeah, but the margin from someone like my really good friend w/o wavedashing to people who can wavedash is just too big. the time input needed to learn to WD is just so high that it leaves really good casual players at way too much of a disadvantage. Its kinda like the whole WoW thing with raiding. Even dedicated players have to raid once they hit 70 or the games over for them. and raiding is hela hard and time consuming. it would just make it more fun for more people. i totally agree w/ whoever started this thread.

For those wondering, another person who agrees with me.

This has been posted all over but you somehow have never read it I guess.
QQ more.

I don't know what QQ is, and I've never heard of that site.

Maybe if he finds some good counter arguments in my earlier post, then I might actually reply with something serious.

If you can't be serious at all, leave now.

 

[greenblob]

It means you took the time to learn it when we're just the minority of Smash players that know how to do it.

You can apply a countless number of techniques/tricks to a countless number of sports/recreational activities. How is Smash any different? I mean, if someone took the time to work out, of course it should pay off in football or something like that.

One main problem is defining what "advanced techs" are. I mean, if someone doesn't know how to recover, does that mean for his sake, we should take out recovering?

 

[Adi]

I've taught my 10 year old brother who has never touched Smash to WD in 15 mins. Please cry more.

 

[Dogenzaka]

And yet someone on the last page can't learn it himself. Someone here already said, we're all different.

You can apply a countless number of techniques/tricks to a countless number of sports/recreational activities.

Wavedashing is not a fair technique. It's cheap and unneeded and bull****.

One main problem is defining what "advanced techs" are. I mean, if someone doesn't know how to recover, does that mean for his sake, we should take out recovering?

That's an intended fair technique. Hell recovering is in the Tutorial video in the Melee menu. How does that compare to techniques that make you unfairly faster and cancel out lag?

 

[greenblob]

And yet someone on the last page can't learn it himself. Someone here already said, we're all different.



Wavedashing is not a fair technique. It's cheap and unneeded and bull****.

Please clearly define the last three adjectives in a non-arbitrary manner. What is "cheap?" What is "unneeded?" What is "bull****?"

 

[sugarpoultry]

Wow... its so incredible how wrong you are.

 

[Empty-_-]

And yet someone on the last page can't learn it himself. Someone here already said, we're all different.

So a one armed man should be on the level playing field as everyone else. And that blind guy. And don't forget his two year old son, he wants to win against people who better themselves through practice too.
Like I said, play rock/paper/scissors or something. You're either blatantly trolling or blatantly ignorant, either way it's a waste of time for every person posting in here trying to tell you how dumb you sound.

Edit: Sorry, but your OPINION is WRONG.

 

[Red Exodus]

Lol WD is ch33p. Dog must not even know what a WD looks like.

I bet if I teach my 3 year old sister to WD she'll be able to 6 stock him in a 4 stock match.

 

[Goldkirby]

I realize this, but hopefully it's not as dramatic of something like wavedashing.

I don't know what QQ is, and I've never heard of that site.

If you can't be serious at all, leave now.

1. Wavedashing is that that dramatic. It's not an automatic "I win" type of button. It takes a long time to learn how to use it EFFECTIVELY.

2. It't the blog of a guy who works at Capcom and also happens to be one of the best Super Street Fighter II Turbo players in the US. I suggest you read up on that link.

3. This is a public forum, telling people to get out isn't going to do anything, and if you are expecting to not get flamed by this board, you are expecting too much. Hell, I would say that you are flame baiting by telling people to get out. Probably half of it is made up of immature 15 year old kids who want to look like intraweb tough guys.

 

[jambre]

it's already on the same playing field

wavedashing is fair as both players can use it.

all non character specific advanced techniques are fair as both players can use it
character specific advanced techniques are as fair as the character is, and as both players can use that character it is THE SAME PLAYING FIELD.

what allows a better player to beat a worse player is skill. Advanced techniques come under 'skill'

 

[Noypi_GjD]

[now you may just say "well ok then your bad" well i kinda think yeah, but the margin from someone like my really good friend w/o wavedashing to people who can wavedash is just too big. the time input needed to learn to WD is just so high that it leaves really good casual players at way too much of a disadvantage.]

Again with the wavedashing... me and my brother are 'advanced' players or at least we try to be, attending tournaments and such. He plays IC/Doc... he needs the wavedash, I main Puff and Peach and so I don't even both putting the effort for the wavedash. Again I don't understand why the 'wave dash' makes people so anal, me and my bro are slightly equal, I can beat him and he can beat me, although his dedication to learn the techniques do show between our matches. People who complain about wavedash and claim that it is 'more fun' without them seems to miss the point. If you simply want to have fun and not bother learn than stay at the casual level, no one is making you learn these. However learning advance techniques is fun, I enjoy the idea of improvement and my crew plays with items and low-tier time to time, advance techs do not make them less fun.

 

[Dr.Saturn]

If you don't know the techniques just learn them i mean really there not hard.

And its not unfair i mean look at smb64 there is more ownage than melee.

 

[Dogenzaka]

sugarpoultry. Leave. Flaming and insults are unnecessary.

So a one armed man should be on the level playing field as everyone else.

Because he can't unfairly make himself faster makes him one-armed? LMAO

You're either blatantly trolling or blatantly ignorant, either way it's a waste of time for every person posting in here trying to tell you how dumb you sound.

That's your opinion. If you don't wanna discuss, leave. Don't call me dumb. It's flaming. And against the rules, and flamebait.

What is "cheap?" What is "unneeded?" What is "bull****?"

It's like having permament bunny ears in my opinion. Watch a regular Melee match, and one with people wavedashing and L-canceling. The techniques' purposes are to make you faster and to cancel out lag. :/

 

[greenblob]

That's an intended fair technique. Hell recovering is in the Tutorial video in the Melee menu. How does that compare to techniques that make you unfairly faster and cancel out lag?

So...
Fast falling
Short hopping
Shield grabbing
Power shield
Side B recoveries
Missile canceling
SHL/SHDL
JC up b/smash
JC shine

What about those?

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Advanced techniques were fun to use in Melee, but in Brawl it could be a whole different story...

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Dude, you do not even know how to define "cheap" and "unfair". I'll leave "cheap" to you; you tell me what "cheap" means. As for "unfair", you are completely wrong because these "cheap" techniques are available to everyone. "Unfair" implies one player is hacking the game in such a way that the opposing player cannot respond even if he knows everything about the game.

 

[Dogenzaka]

So...
Fast falling
Short hopping
Shield grabbing
Power shield
Side B recoveries
Missile canceling
SHL/SHDL
JC up b/smash
JC shine

What about those?

I won't comment on them because I can't pull them off and it'd be biased.

 

[Red Exodus]

If you can't be serious at all, leave now.

When you start being serious I will, right now you sound like some scrub that got lost on the way to a site that has FFA item tournaments.

 

[sugarpoultry]

sugarpoultry. Leave. Flaming and insults are unnecessary.

LOL! And being a whiny baby about WD and other skills isn't? You seriously have no idea what you are talking about. I like what Buzz said about Candyland.

Somebody please get this guy Candyland so he'll be happy in his own little world.

I can't pull them off

Well, I think we all knew that.

 

[Shai Hulud]

Get out if you're not going to discuss properly without flames.

You've been here, what, two weeks, and you're deciding who should get out, and how the game should be adjusted to your noob *** preferences?

You get out for FAILING.

"Cheap" has NO MEANING in competitive games. If you're just interested in your scrub FFAs with your friends, then why do you care? And if you actually think you would be good without advanced techniques, then lol, because you clearly are a scrub who would never dishonor the way the game was meant to be played (dash attack combos, FJ Link dair, B attack spam) by actually learning how not to be terrible.

You do realize tournaments have no meaning with a level playing field, right? The outcome would be RANDOM. But I don't know, maybe that's what you want.

 

[Red Exodus]

Dog why did you come to a site that supports these techniques? Do you think?

It's like going to a mosh pit and asking people to not beat the **** out of each other.

Seriously, make your own site with your own rules and your own tournaments instead of trying to change thousands of people.

 

[Dogenzaka]

"Unfair" implies one player is hacking the game in such a way that the opposing player cannot respond even if he knows everything about the game.

LOL

un·fair (n-fâr)
adj. un·fair·er, un·fair·est
1. Not just or evenhanded; biased: an unfair call by an umpire.
2. Contrary to laws or conventions, especially in commerce; unethical: unfair trading.

When you start being serious I will, right now you sound like some scrub that got lost on the way to a site that has FFA item tournaments.

Insults. Flaming. You've been reported.
I AM serious, and I'm seriously discussing. Discuss on a mature level or get out.

LOL! And being a whiny baby about WD and other skills isn't?

I'm not whiny. I'm debating, and I have an opinion. That's not against the rules.

You seriously have no idea what you are talking about.

I do.

Somebody please get this guy Candyland so he'll be happy in his own little world.

Nope. I have SSB64, Melee, and a pre-order on Brawl. I'm fine thanks.

You've been here, what, two weeks, and you're deciding who should get out, and how the game should be adjusted to your noob *** preferences?

You get out for FAILING.

My time here =/= my right to post an opinion or debate.
And now you've been reported for flaming as well.

If you're just interested in your scrub FFAs with your friends, then why do you care?

Because wavedashing is cheap and should be out.

You do realize tournaments have no meaning with a level playing field, right?

Yes they do, because then it comes down to how powerful you are.
Although tournaments are usually on a level field because most people in tournaments can wavedash/L-cancel, so both opponents have the same advantages.

 

[Noypi_GjD]

Combos aren't glitches.
Wavedashing is.

Lets discuss the logic of this.

Washdashing is a glitch
Waveshine infinite is a combo
Waveshine involves wavedash
Therefore: Combos are glitches?

 

[Sandwich]

=\
There's probably going to be some new, hippie advance tech that I'll have to take 5 months to learn, anyway.
I do think Dogenzaka was a ****** for posting this genuine flamebait, but all this "debate" is fail.

 

[Xengri]

Yes I can blame you. You're not allowed to flame period. I'm frustrated with you but I haven't flamed you, and if you want a decent argument, try not sounding like a rude flaming poster.

I quote ALL of your phrases. If you don't care what I think, you wouldn't post here.

You're not one to say whether I wanted attention or not, I simply wanted to post my opinion. I could technically say you're just posting here for attention, but that'd be unbased considering I don't know your intentions.

I just can't believe you're serious....
you quoted my entire post? maybe if that was true I would have continued actually taking you seriously.

But you know what? I'm at fault for actually taking you serious in the first place. My first assumption was right, this thread wasn't worth responding to.

Tell you what. Go back to page 3 of this thread, reread my post. Look at your second post on page 4. See if that "I quote ALL of your phrases" thing that you said true or not. Then if you try again, and actually do a better job, I'll actually try taking you seriously again.

 

[Empty-_-]

He's just trolling to see if he can spam report people. Don't bother wasting intelligent words on it.
Oh that's right he kicked us all out of his thread anyway.

 

[Dogenzaka]

Dog why did you come to a site that supports these techniques? Do you think?

Because I'm a Smash fan. I don't have to be a wavedash supporter to be a member here. That wasn't in the terms of agreements.

It's like going to a mosh pit and asking people to not beat the **** out of each other.

I realize that but they're going to have to grow up and realize the game doesn't revolve around the pro players, it revolves around the good of everyone.

Lets discuss the logic of this.

Washdashing is a glitch
Waveshine infinite is a combo
Waveshine involves wavedash
Therefore: Combos are glitches?

Well if it involves glitching in order to achieve a combo, I believe it's kind of like glitching and unfair.

I do think Dogenzaka was a ****** for posting this genuine flamebait, but all this "debate" is fail.

You don't have to insult me. If opposing opinions are considered "flamebait" and banworthy there'd be no healthy discussion on the internet. It's honestly not my fault someone doesn't have self-control when they hit post and can't refrain from insulting me. I shouldn't get in trouble because someone decided to flame me.

I just can't believe you're serious....
you quoted my entire post? maybe if that was true I would have continued actually taking you seriously.

Show me something I didn't quote and I'll do my best to respond.

But you know what? I'm at fault for actually taking you serious in the first place. My first assumption was right, this thread wasn't worth responding to.

But then it must be worth responding to because you did.

Realize I'm posting against probably 7 members disagreeing with me. I can forget who I'm quoting, and it is hard to type this much this fast. Carpal Tunnel anyone?

 

[Stak]

This is the worst thread in the history of forums

When you start being serious I will, right now you sound like some scrub that got lost on the way to a site that has FFA item tournaments.

And this is the worst post unless you're kidding somehow

This whole argument makes my head hurt

 

[Xengri]

He's just trolling to see if he can spam report people. Don't bother wasting intelligent words on it.
Oh that's right he kicked us all out of his thread anyway.

Everybody has some amount of intelligence. I have the time, So I'll try and bring it out of this guy. It may look hopeless but, meh... the thread will eventually get locked anyway.

Besides, +1's right?

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

LOL

un·fair (n-fâr)
adj. un·fair·er, un·fair·est
1. Not just or evenhanded; biased: an unfair call by an umpire.
2. Contrary to laws or conventions, especially in commerce; unethical: unfair trading.

I told you to define "cheap". Besides, that definition only supports my position. The game is just, evenhanded, and unbiased. The same tools are available to everyone. If we were talking about controller port 1 having subtle priority over controller port 2, then we'd be getting somewhere.

Regardless, you are right about one thing: one who knows the advanced techniques clearly has an unfair advantage over one who does not. However, the advanced techniques are open to the one who has not learned them yet. So, the game is still fair.

 

[sugarpoultry]

Nope. I have SSB64, Melee, and a pre-order on Brawl. I'm fine thanks.

Then why on earth do you care? Go play your games and stop complaining.

Because wavedashing is cheap and should be out.

It's only cheep because you can't do it, and it pisses you off to know that others can do it and we will ALWAYS BEAT YOU. Sucks to be you doesn't it?