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If you want essentially a new game within Ultimate, why not just make a Melee-like game a secondary Smash series? I'd honestly support that more than shoehorning a mode that changes the whole game into something that's clearly not a purely esport-oriented game.
Because Nintendo's not likely to do that. But they already have had modes where you can tweek a lot of things. So I'm just suggesting an extension of that, as an alternative. I think an extra game like youre talking about would be fine.
It would very much so infringe on the game. You're asking them to balance a game that currently has 73 fighters-and will probably have 80 fighters by launch-twice over, and that's before DLC. They could never do that, it's impossible, and furthermore it would split the fanbase again; what gets played at tournaments, or online play? Both? The base game? The Melee-like side mode? Why is no one asking for a 64 mode or a Brawl mode, or even a Smash 4 mode? Let Ultimate be Ultimate, they're not going to add a Melee mode, the game won't play like Melee, it will play like Ultimate. If people want to burden themselves by staying in the past, then let them, Sakurai is catering to Smash Bros. fans, not just Melee fans.
Nintendo is intent on splitting Pokémon into Let's Go (for newcomers) and the main series (for established fans). I think a secondary Smash series with a complete focus on competitive would work.
Except Let's Go is for getting the people who like Pokemon GO into the series with a hybrid game, not splitting their fanbase with 2 sets of games. Smash shouldn't do that, why would it need to? Smash is a unique game that can pander to both audiences.
But the mechanics I have in mind that could build from Melee (separate Wavedash button+air dash, universal jump cancelling most moves, more low-knockback moves dedicated to building combos) wouldn't serve a casual audience well. In fact, balancing around those mechanics would be very difficult due to the amount of parameters involved.
That's why I'm actually putting another option here, which is to have a mode to change the physics and more, and just give it in the players' hands to make some modes, rather than trying to balance an official one.
Yup, I agree, it's not impossible, but pokemon go is BIG. big big big.
I'm not saying we should have a mode in Smash or combine the 2 in any way. I don't want a game catering to the Melee people at all, except for maybe a port on a newer system, I want the two communities to join together, and something pandering to the Melee crowd just doesn't sit right with me. I get that Melee is the more popular game competitively, but I want Ultimate to join the communities, not split them, and a Melee - like game really just breaks us apart further.
The problem is that Nintendo would need to make it, in order to have good relations for tournaments (unlike what happened with PM)
Nintendo doesn't need to make such a game, not directly anyway. All they need to do is outsource the work to someone else like Capcom or ArcSys who thrives on competitive fighters. Only have the Sora Ltd. staff around to supervise.
I wonder if that's something they'd consider. It should be technically feasible. You know that might be detailed enough to campaign with, tbh.
I mean I wouldn't mind something like that. But then again, why does it have to be like Melee to be more competitive? Wouldn't it be good for competitive Smash to have each game bring its own flavor to the table?
Isn't that exactly what they did with Smash 4 and Ultimate? Sora brought in Bandai Namco, developers of the Soul Calibur and Tekken series, and have been balancing each game based on the input of the competitive community.
At this point I don't see it as having to be like melee to be 'more' competitive, but rather some people have come to love the type of competitiveness that's in melee, and there's want for more of it like that. It's ok and good for each game to bring its own flavor, but these people are hooked on its mechanics. It's a decently large community too, so it's worth noting.
You're right about this. I honestly don't want a game like Project M, which is too much like Melee. But there are a lot of concepts in Melee that arise out of emergent interactions that could be turned into real, legitimate mechanics. I'll post part of one of my earlier posts:
And how about another one: wavedash canceling could even be a better replacement for L-Canceling. Instead of pressing the shield button to reduce landing lag, you could jump out of your landing lag and wavedash out of it. It would actually give aerial landing lag some real depth to whether you want to poke or continue a combo.
Sora and Namco are actively collaborating for Smash 4 and Ultimate. If there would be a secondary Smash series with a competitive focus, Sora should only supervise, allowing them to work on whatever they want in the meantime.
Because Melee is a good game.
Quillion
, the wavedash canceling sounds like an awesome idea.
Wait, how does this work? Do you mean you are able to wavedash DURING landing lag? If so, I'm not against that in principle, I just hope we still keep the idea of wavedashing staling out like dodges do now. But when you consider dodge staling is just adding more frames to the end, how exactly would this function in the same vein? Would it add to the landing lag, or have its own "staling" lag? I bring this up because for an example with Charizard, if you wavedash cancelled NAir, and wavelanding by default had 12 frames, yet you autocancelled the NAir, does this mean Charizard is wavedashing while not in lag? And what if you have stale dodges? Would that waveland cause the autocancelled NAir to add inactivity because you did a stale wavedash? And what about a move with high landing lag for balance purposes, like Charizard's BAir? What if the landing lag is much longer than even a stale waveland? At that point, nothing changes and you will then ALWAYS want to waveland for those particular aerials, leading to the non-choice issue L-Cancelling brings, though admittedly not as bad since you can choose direction.
Because Melee is a good game.
Why is it so difficult for players to acknowledge that?
It’s s good game.
It’s flawed, which is expected, because none of the games are perfect. But Melee does a lot right, and gives you freedom of control in the ways you play.
No one wants a Brawl mode because it literally borrowed Melee’s mechanics and just gutted it. Hit stun canceling as well as tripping for running and doing forward smashes isn’t very well received. I would love platform canceling, though. And Brawl Meta Knight, despite how busted he was, is actually really fun.
Smash 4 mode isn’t wanted because it borrows from Brawl, but racks on rage, removes A LOT of DI, guts SDI, C-stick jab / nair, the inability to freely use momentum in the air when your c-stick is set for smash attacks (which was never fixed for some reason), ledge magnets, weak neutral game, easy combos, broken set knock back on some moves. The game is still fun and really good with these issues at hand, and I still play it, personally.
Melee gives players freedom.
If I want to instantly drop off a ledge and waveland off of it and waveland back onto the stage and grab my opponent, I can.
If I want to pillar and multishine on shield and potentially break it or shine grab, I can.
If I wanted to follow my opponents DI by wave landing on platforms and stylishly use my tilts to carry my opponent across the stage and dunk them, I can.
If I want to play an incredibly safe neutral and utilize my mobility, I can
If I want to to tonohawk waveland and wacedash around my opponent on wake up to force and option instead of just standing there and waiting, I can.
If I can imagine executing something in Melee, I can do it, and that in itself is incredible fun and liberating. I like being able to fully utilize my tool kit to do something bizarre or technical, even if it’s for a simple punish, it makes you play for those moments where you completely outplayed your opponent while also just doing the most. And if you don’t want to play that way, you don’t want to, that’s the beauty of the game. Hell the meta is still evolving to this day because of how fluid it is, and so many players have there signature play style. Armada the Swedish sniper, Mew2King being frame perfect and shutting down options, or just having an amazing Marth in general. Mango doing the Mango, which is whatever he wants and it just works, Westballz incredibly flashy and technical Falco, Plup’s smooth *** Samus. There’s a lot to enjoy about the game.
Notice that I’m talking about the game and it’s mechics, and not the community, which is something that I feel like a lot of players emphasize when they speak about the game itself. I couldn’t care less, as annoying camel jockeys exist in every gaming community; don’t let that cloud your judgement of the game itself, unless you’re just trying to fit in, which is fine, but there are more important things to worry about then what sub-committee in Super Smash Bros. you belong to.
I enjoy all the games, I play them all. I love Melee because it gives me what I want as a smash game and a fighting game. That’s pretty much it.
EDIT: Not changing anything, but excuse the errors. Auto correct is garbage.
Also
Oh and while you’re at it, why not look at the list of characters that have won nationals in smash 4 compared to Melee
Rocket Raccoon
And this is why I want a Melee-like secondary series of Smash, and I want said secondary series to have a smaller cast.
And I wouldn't be opposed to such a thing. I see why people want Melee mechanics. It just should not interfere with the game that is Smash Ultimate as balance for that game is based around a completely different set of mechanics. There would be no successful middle.
See, you did it again. You took that criticism of Melee and then tried to find an equivalence with Smash 4 to criticize that same point with. I get it, everybody gets it. You write all of these paragraphs yet still ignore the main point that manageable balance would be off the table with how many characters there would be. The point is that neither Melee's nor Smash 4's situation is ideal, and let's not get started with Brawl.
You sure PM wasn't more popular because they actually tried to do their own thing and thus it basically felt like another game separate from Melee? And it's funny how you say the melee mode would be "small changes" and then go on to list a bunch of characters that need to be "reverted", thus changing up a bunch of hitboxes and stats, changing a crap ton of physics, changing the stages, changing the balance of said characters, and not even to mention all the other characters that weren't in Melee, or do they not count? After all, I've seen so many people who support these sorts of mods say that Sheik, Fox, Falco, Peach, Jiggs, Cpt. Falcon, etc have to be better than other characters instead of caring about the others.
Hey no one’s saying Smash 4 is balanced, I admit full well Bayonetta (and I guess Cloud to a lesser extent, if you really care to split hairs, but irrelevant here) was an awful addition that tarnished the competitive scene forever, and Melee’s top tiers are definitely more balanced. It’s just that, well, Ultimate could never be balanced if it tried to have two metas, but if it focused on one meta, it could potentially have more viable characters than any game in the history of the series.
I merely listed all of the integral things that make Melee, Melee. Otherwise you just can't call it a Melee mode. For the record, I'm not saying it has to happen. 4xM tried to recreate it, and it didn't take off like PM did. Which imo should stay that way. A melee mod shouldn't get Nintendo's attention.
Your idea of a “Melee mode” is basically taking an HD carbon copy of Melee and then spicing it with content Smash Ultimate is already bringing. I’m not even joking. That’s how specific your request is. I can’t plausibly see your idea of this happening. I honestly can’t see Melee mode in any form happening at all to be honest.
I'm starting to think no one actually read the first part of my post. Lol
Yeah, I'd rather we look to "make Melee better" than just "make Melee again".
Going from only what you listed:
Why though? And to what degree? Do you mean they have to be coded in a one to one way? Because if that's the case, then that means multihits become trash again, chain grabbing becomes a thing, causing stage imbalance, landing lag becomes atrocious again, Falco becomes a full clone again, Ganondorf becomes a full clone again, etc. This isn't really a direct flaw here, but it brings into question do we bring the terrible stuff I mentioned with the good too? Why would we want to do that?
Ah, and then, even if anyone who likes Melee cared about balancing Zelda, would have to wait five years to transform between them at the cost of two good special moves they've acquired. Wonderful.
For all the talk about giving players freedom, this seems like quite the effort to take away freedom from Yoshi players, right? But it's from Melee so it's a "good game design decision" to have one character not be able to do something literally every other character can, right?
So what you want is for one punish in a stock to mean you lose that stock guaranteed? Literally no other fighting game players ever ask for stuff like this when infinite combos are said like they really are. Do you want a character to be able to literally get three/four (depending on stock size) punishes on you and then automatically win? And please don't say, "just balance Icies to be terrible in everything except this infinite", because that's such poor game design it actively hurts me to see people vehemently supporting it.
As a whole, I support the ideas of these, but not in the way Melee does them. Wavedashing is far too spammable to be really used skillfully. What's more hype: a constant wavedashing forward and back and punish, or a dash forward with a wavedash back and punish? When you give useful tools like wavedashing limits to their power, it makes it all the sweeter for both player and audience to see the one moment it was used at the right time and have it capitalized on. Something called sensory satiation or whatever, idk.
Neutral on these. I've honestly thought of increasing gravity in my upcoming Ultimate mod, whenever it's possible lol.
So back to edgehogging then? So we just gonna make sure offstage player interaction has the ability to devolve into just taking the ledge, and thus a stock was taken without actually fighting said player? And if they actually take the ledge, you basically have to let them be because of infinite invincibility? Who wants interaction between players taken away? Honestly, ledge trumping was one of the few things I can safely say Smash 4 did right not just for that game, but the entirety of the series. Now bad recoveries aren't a complete death sentence. Now player interaction is about both offstage play AND ledge reads rather than just one. Sure, Smash 4's ledge mechanics could use some ironing out, like the ledge timer, but the more player interaction you can achieve, the better your competitive game overall.
Yeah, let's reduce player interaction more by having what could potentially be an awesome play on the dodger's part mean jack. Honestly, I loather Smash 4's airdodge spam, but this is a close second, because it removes most of the reason you'd want to add an air dodge in your game in the first place. Ultimate's system of one air dodge without helpless is honestly the sweetspot for maximum player interaction.
Neutral on both of these too, though I have a thought on shield breaks. Not really a Melee thing, but a Smash thing. Why is shield break so long, when in a game with high shield pressure like Pokken, it's so short? I feel like it turns shield breaks into certain death, when a game should really not do that. Hell, Pokken counts whatever broke the shield as hitting the opponent, meaning it starts scaling your subsequent combo early, which gives the overall effect of making shield break combos far less damaging than raw combos of the exact same string of moves.
I think a good quote from an L-Cancelling thread from way back will help highlight this terrible mechanic:
And rightly so on the last point. What fighting game player from any other series would welcome being forced to constantly press a button at the right time for some arbitrary action like jumping, else the game plays in a subpar manner? Why not you have to press L every time you hit an enemy within 2-3 frames, else the hitstun would be cut in half and your combos would fail? Where has any fighting game community other than the small playerbase of an even smaller playerbase of only like minded individuals within said smaller playerbase ever wanted this?
Like wavedashing/landing, fully endorse, but not in the way Melee does it. Simplest solution? Make it just so you hold the button and slide off the ledge and if you let go before your character gets to the edge, they don't. We don't need this specific spacing crap, just make it a blatant feature.
Fully endorse more hitstun full stop. More shieldstun I'd rather say depends on the move and character, but overall, totally fine.
****ing YES!!!!
Overall neutral on this, but I'd rather have differing things to nerf on recoveries, as well as ways to buff a few that are lackluster. I'd rather not just make all recovery moves objectively worse across the board.
Neutral, leaning towards yes. More tight blastzones = more stocks taken. More stocks taken = more stocks available. More stocks available = more chances at comebacks and upsets. More comebacks and upsets = more hype game. Simple calculs.
Sakurai's philosophy for this game appears tk be able to make things easier and more accessible to casual players as well as to new players who want to get in to the competitive scene.Oh and while you’re at it, why not look at the list of characters that have won nationals in smash 4 compared to Melee
So Smash 4 has 10, and Melee has...8? huge difference. And the cast of smash 4 is double that of Melee, correct? And if I recall correctly, grand finals of EVO 2018 was double Bayonetta, and also marked as one of the more controversial grand finals in the games history. I don’t think the statistics and public reception bode well for your argument—but you know what Melee is, right?
I can recall Plup beating the EVO champion Leffen with Samus, and Hungrybox tearing up the Meta was the sole Jigglypuff player in the circuit. Grand finals for Super Smash Con was Marth vs Peach, a match up, that people a decade ago was unwinable, with Peach taking the tournament. That’s because the game has the propensity to evolve due to having solid mechanics that help players usurp characters who are dominant. Even with all of the Fox on Final Destination jokes floating throughout the net, I guarantee you they can’t even short hop with him, much less have the technical prowess and dexterity to play a mechanically sound fox with suiciding, getting death comboed, or gimped.
Please don’t imply that you know what Melee is, because the fact that you would resort beating the proverbial dead horse with a dated argument, that only a few characters can win a tournament, then you don’t understand the game at all. I don’t even understand the full game, and I have been playing the game at an advanced level for nearly a decade, so don’t waltz in and imply that. You can say:
“from what I understand, only a certain amount of characters have been deemed tournament viable in Melee, however, I do not know if that information is sound or if the game has changed in the time it was reintroduced to major fighting game events”
This is at least how I would go about it if I were to approach potential players and seasoned ones alike when I’m entering a public forum.
And even if that is the case, tournament viability, or lack there of, doesn’t mean something is not as enjoyable. amsa, a Japanese Yoshi player, was in top 8 at Super Smash Con, and went toe to toe with Armada in their set. Players who are skilled, intelligent, and dedicated to their character will succeed no matter what, like Kameme in Smash 4, who made it to EVO grand finals playing Sheik, Megaman and Yoshi. Unexpected characters like Rose and Adon in Street Fighter 4 have taken EVO before, but these characters aren’t what you would expect to be tournament viable.
There are some exceptions, though. Bayonetta is far too dominant, and in a game with little to no DI, there’s not many other options in countering her after she gets a hit, that plus Bat within and witch time. There will never or seldomly be a situation where a Ganon can take out Bayo, unless the Ganon does everything right at the right time, which is improbable.
But since we’re on the subject, enlighten me as to what Smash 4 and it’s predecessor, Brawl, is, as you have proven that you are quite insightful.
And pray tell what exactly is his design philosophy, or are you doing what many do on here and proclaim to play oracle for him?
Nah man, dude is still getting over 70 dollars from me, he’s not doing me any favors. He’s not going to magically show up in the hood and hand me a personally crafted copy of his game. So as far as I’m concerned he can do whatever he wants, I’m just thinking wishfully.
I’m going to play smash no matter what because I love the game, and of course I’m happy that he’s willing to accept criticism from other players, especially with how hard it is for Nintendo to accept game design advice from outside sources, but I’m not gonna belly up and be satisfied by what someone is throwing at me just because. That’s weak.
I make these comparisons to Melee because it not only made me fall in love with smash and fighting games, but that I wish that each installment would have the competitive mettle and longevity that Melee has. It’s nothing out of spite, contrary to what most people say on here, but then again, most people can’t argue their way out of a cardboard box, so don’t take what people say en mass and read, and think critically about what each person is truly trying to say.
https://www.theguardian.com/games/2...hiro-sakurai-35-years-gaming-history-nintendo
http://www.nintendolife.com/news/20..._about_competitive_aspect_of_super_smash_bros
Hitstun Cancelling wasn't actually that bad in Smash 4 as the window to act out was signifigantly reduced from Brawl. All Hitstun cancelling does really is just make combing at high percents more limited.
