"melee mode" discussion

[BronzeGreekGod]

So we've been discussing this in another thread and I wanted to make a thread dedicated to the topic cause we've hijacked the other thread lol. The idea is, I and I think a number of others would be interested in seeing a mode in "special brawl" that tweaks ultimates mechanics to match melees a bit more. To be clear, we're not really asking for a carbon copy of melee, just something with more fast paced mechanics akin to melee. A bit of a spiritual successor to melee. I was thinking if there were a toggle in special brawl that did this, the toggle could also include 64 mode, brawl mode, and smash4 mode. Again none of these modes would be identical to the originals, but theyd feel similar.

Most of the tweaks needed here would have to do with gravity, jump height, and knockback speed, with a few other small mechanics that could be added in if not too difficult. Reduced endlags to characters would be nice as well to make characters feel less clumsy (if this hasn't already been done).

 

[osby]

Endlags overall reduced but I'm not sure what purpose this will serve. Game developers aim for their game to surpass the previous ones. Why make a new game if you're going to put one like previous ones into it? People can just play old ones.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Endlags overall reduced but I'm not sure what purpose this will serve. Game developers aim for their game to surpass the previous ones. Why make a new game if you're going to put one like previous ones into it? People can just play old ones.

sorry this argument is no good. You telling me that melee with 103 stages and like 70 characters isn't new? Playing melee doesn't cut it. People need to drop this argument. Please stop it. its awful.

And once again im not saying I want a carbon copy of melee. In a perfect world id like melee with a number of improvements to its engine and mechanics, cause melee is not perfect. I actually prefer Project M to melee. So its not that anyone wants MELEE, people want a faster paced game that is more fun.

And reducing end lag on attacks achieves faster, less clumsy gameplay. Play project m and then play smash 4. Smash 4 and brawl literally puts me to sleep.

 

[osby]

sorry this argument is no good. You telling me that melee with 103 stages and like 70 characters isn't new? Playing melee doesn't cut it. People need to drop this argument. Please stop it. its awful.

And once again im not saying I want a carbon copy of melee. In a perfect world id like melee with a number of improvements to its engine and mechanics, cause melee is not perfect. I actually prefer Project M to melee. So its not that anyone wants MELEE, people want a faster paced game that is more fun.

And reducing end lag on attacks achieves faster, less clumsy gameplay. Play project m and then play smash 4. Smash 4 and brawl literally puts me to sleep.

You answered your own question, then play Project M.

 

[Necro'lic]

Alright, I’m gonna say my piece with the little battery I have left on my phone because there’s definity a rift amongst the people who play smash, even though it’s all the same franchise.

First though, for those of you who are reiterating “Sakurai said”, well, he has said a lot of things, many of them contradictory. I can recall posts he made saying villager couldn’t be a fighter, or that Brawl was his last smash game. And while the information is important, it is not set in stone, nor do I, or anyone else for that matter, can truly establish what he has said as fact from small excerpts from interviews he’s conducted. And honestly, it’s kind of irritating when you would site this information out of malice instead of trying to hear what others are saying. That’s weak, man. If you have your personal gripes with whatever game make them be know without attempting to hide behind the words of a man none of us know, or would have never known, if he didn’t make himself visible during Brawl’s development.

As someone who plays all the smash games, but personally loves Melee, I feel like the desire to obtain such a similarity to the game is because it is not only entertaining as a spectator sport, is because the game gives you options. When you are playing Melee, every input you make counts, and with inputs being 1 to 1, no buffer window (except for techs and DI), a refined physics engine, it makes the game feel very good to play, and players optly acknowledge that whether you make a technical error or secure a kill, that it was all on you. This in itself is satisfying, because you aren’t being defeated by an anomaly or systematic error. The mechanics allow for players to fully express themselves within whatever character they choose. You can clearly see if a Fox is either Armada’s or Leffen’s purely based on how they play.

When people say they want another Melee, it’s not just seeking a pure replica of the game; nah. What I believe is that people want what the game has always offered: accessibility, the ability to have control and fluidity with your character, a solid amount of hitstun to make strings and platform based follow ups viable, as well giving characters enough control over DI so that escape is possible, but knowledgeable players can still pursue and follow up (which in congruence creates the amazing combos we see today in Melee).

The problems that occurred with Smash 4 were that it achieved its competitive success by establishing limits on existing techniques, as well as having a neutral game that revolved around landing rogue hits that left an opponent vulnerable in an engine where it is easy to predict and react to.

If you get comboed in Melee, most people can acknowledge this as the comboer having the knowledge and dexterity to follow up, and the comboee being in the right percents, weight, incorrect DI, for a follow up to happen. In Smash 4, it can be something as simple as getting jabbed, and then losing neutral position. This is because it followed the trend that Brawl established, except you had great control over your DI, and the minimal hitstun meant you weren’t screwed over in neutral. Combine the engine with neutered DI and increase hitstun and you have a game that heavily favors a rogue hit momentum swing into trading the right option into a rage KO.

To clarify, if I get SHUFFL Nair comboed across FD in Melee by Fox into a kill, I knew I didn’t DI correctly, and my opponent acknowledged the percent I am at and was able to follow up accordingly while also reading my DI. If I get Nair to Up Smashed by Fox in Smash 4, there was a 1 in 4 chance that I couldn’t tech the follow up, so the game actually killed me (and people say wavedashing is a glitch...). If I get edge guarded and gimped in Melee, I probably didn’t recover right, missed a tech, or my opponents edge play was very strong and intricate, especially when if a player can instantly drop off the ledge, waveland, etc. if I get edge graded in Smash 4, I probably got ledge trumped and lost my invincibility frames, I only have 4 options to get up off of the ledge, and with the ledge timer, I can only get up after so many frames, allowing my opponent to shut down most of my options unless I wait, which then makes me lose my invincibility frames. On top of that, some characters are more susceptible to being punished by holding the ledge more than others because of the games design. really?

Now winding back to why SDI is so important, is because it allowed you to use your DI to position yourself with enough freedom to force your opponent to have to be on point to follow up instead of racking up percent in the same way every time. Lack of proper DI in Smash 4 is why down throw to up air is such s prominent combo, and why Bayonetta can just combo you skyward to ridiculous percents. It makes things predictable and sometimes stagnant.

And yet, I still love the game because it’s fun and it’s smash so I still play it. But please don’t be blind sighted by its flaws because they aren’t as visible as Melee’s ledge hogging or chain grabbing. Recovery latency, inaccurate hit boxes, phone-it-in balance patches, and the game having checker neutral is still there. And while I do acknowledge that the passion for the fans of the game can often be blown out of proportion, I might argue that exists for all games people are passionate about, so stop attacking each other and try to listen.

Wanting what Melee brought to the table isn’t bad, and maybe if the people who attached would research or listen to others, you would know why too.

Or play the damn game, I don’t know.

Quoting you off of the other thread, since this is more appropriate lol.

I think a big disconnect I'm seeing throughout most of this post is that people are ignoring Smash 4's flaws, yet highlighting Melee's heavily. I didn't see that really happening in that thread. And I don't see it happen often. When people point out flaws in Melee, don't think they are somehow implicitly endorsing another Smash game by default, because that's not how that works.

For example, I don't like a lack of a buffer window. All it seems to do is encourage button mashing to continue combos and seems to be more a relic of the past in a bid to try and make the game more execution heavy than it needs to be, due to requiring "frame perfect" precision. Does this mean I endorse the high buffer window of Brawl and Smash 4? No. I'd like a lower buffer window overall so that accidental inputs don't happen too often. But overall I think the existence of a buffer window at all is more favorable than none. Obviously, this would favor Smash 4 and Brawl, but that doesn't mean I don't acknowledge the flaws of that system.

The point I'm making is that you seem to be bringing in some undue hostility towards supporters of Smash 4, acting like they support it while ignoring its flaws while poking holes into an imperfect, yet successful game like Melee, pointing out its flaws and you say they are biased. Funny enough, this attitude for people that point out Melee's flaws will simply create more vitriol and enmity throughout the community, which is quite ironic since you clear want to quell it.

In short, don't assume someone's implicit biases, because assuming makes an ass out of, eh, whatever you get it.

EDIT: To the point of this thread itself, it's so redundant. Why not just make a good competitive game everyone can enjoy casually or competitively without having to have some arbitrary mode that completely changes the physics of the game? It is doable, we are able to do it better than Melee or Project M, so why would we try to create a game within a game? The best competitive games have low skill floor, very high skill ceiling, and very few difficulty spikes. This consistent flow in difficulty in gameplay is done by giving the player explicit knowledge of all their tools very early on, so we need a good tutorial. In a multiplayer environment, it's also done by removing as much execution based balance of the game as possible, such as "frame perfect" being a requirement to even succeed. In a fast multiplayer game, execution will rear its head regardless, so why manufacture it when it isn't needed?

The last, and biggest, way to get a good competitive game is to make sure the high skilled players and low skilled players are playing the same overall game at base. This is why execution based ways to arbitrarily increase skill floor are terrible game design. The biggest example in older Smash games is L-Cancelling, though the lack of input buffer is another one that I mentioned.

Now I have to wonder, will this "Melee mode" bring with it all of these design flaws I mentioned in the last paragraph? By its very nature, it will make it so low skilled players and high skilled players are playing completely different games, which doesn't help competitive growth and also doesn't help spectatorship as much as it could, since casual players of the game will simply look at a competitive match and won't think "maybe I can do stuff like that". All they'll think is, "this isn't like the game I like". It's this disconnect that causes the disconnect with casual players in Melee trying to get into competitive when it doesn't have to be like that. This idea will necessarily cause that same disconnect no matter how much it changes. Just make a good, low skill floor, high skill ceiling game, that's it.

 

[DJ3DS]

I've heard there's a great game out there for people who want their games to be more like Melee.

It's called Melee.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

You answered your own question, then play Project M.

oh my god im sorry but your responses are so frustrating. you just made the same argument as "just play melee". I clearly just stated that that is NOT good enough. I want a "project M" (which doesn't have to be exactly like project m) with 80 characters and 103 stages. I want a new smash that is like melee or project m, that is more refined, with better graphics and more characters with fast paced gameplay. Create a new argument and then respond.

I've heard there's a great game out there for people who want their games to be more like Melee.

It's called Melee.

shutup and read my msg above. comments like these don't belong here.

Quoting you off of the other thread, since this is more appropriate lol.

I think a big disconnect I'm seeing throughout most of this post is that people are ignoring Smash 4's flaws, yet highlighting Melee's heavily. I didn't see that really happening in that thread. And I don't see it happen often. When people point out flaws in Melee, don't think they are somehow implicitly endorsing another Smash game by default, because that's not how that works.

For example, I don't like a lack of a buffer window. All it seems to do is encourage button mashing to continue combos and seems to be more a relic of the past in a bid to try and make the game more execution heavy than it needs to be, due to requiring "frame perfect" precision. Does this mean I endorse the high buffer window of Brawl and Smash 4? No. I'd like a lower buffer window overall so that accidental inputs don't happen too often. But overall I think the existence of a buffer window at all is more favorable than none. Obviously, this would favor Smash 4 and Brawl, but that doesn't mean I don't acknowledge the flaws of that system.

The point I'm making is that you seem to be bringing in some undue hostility towards supporters of Smash 4, acting like they support it while ignoring its flaws while poking holes into an imperfect, yet successful game like Melee, pointing out its flaws and you say they are biased. Funny enough, this attitude for people that point out Melee's flaws will simply create more vitriol and enmity throughout the community, which is quite ironic since you clear want to quell it.

In short, don't assume someone's implicit biases, because assuming makes an *** out of, eh, whatever you get it.

ya so, I don't have a hatred towards smash 4, I just find it disappointing that I don't like it because its too slow for me. I really want a fast paced game with all those characters. I wish I could like it, but it literally puts me to sleep. Seriously.

and a lot of people keep saying we don't need to remake melee. No one is saying remake melee. Melee has flaws!!! Project M is better and im sure it also has flaws! What people want is a game that takes melee, and refines it, perfects it, and changes it to make it better. Rather than changing the engine completely and making it have slower gameplay.

 

[osby]

oh my god im sorry but your responses are so frustrating. you just made the same argument as "just play melee". I clearly just stated that that is NOT good enough. I want a "project M" (which doesn't have to be exactly like project m) with 80 characters and 103 stages. I want a new smash that is like melee or project m, that is more refined, with better graphics and more characters with fast paced gameplay. Create a new argument and then respond.

Then it means you won't be getting it.

I mean, Sakurai obviously moved away from Melee. Later games had succeed without being Melee fast.

Project M done by fans, for fans. It's done specifically with competitive players in mind. If you want a game like this, you won't find it in a mode Of Ultimate.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Then it means you won't be getting it.

I mean, Sakurai obviously moved away from Melee. Later games had succeed without being Melee fast.

Project M done by fans, for fans. It's done specifically with competitive players in mind. If you want a game like this, you won't find it in a mode Of Ultimate.

now we can have a discussion lol

well I don't know if this should be discounted completely. If ur interested, check the thread about the KB mechanics of smash ultimate and if they'll be an issue. we discussed a number of things there. One of the biggest things I think could make this possible is that this game is the ULTIMATE smash. Its quite possible that sakurai will amalgamate previous versions of smash so people can really get the ultimate experience.

Conversely, if there are a lot more refined gravity and kb options in the game, players can adjust those things to make the game feel more like melee on their own.

Also sakurai says a lot of things that contradict things he does. He changes his mind a lot.
Plus in this game he seems to be trying to make gameplay a bit faster as it is. sooo I don't think we should be discounting anything

 

[osby]

now we can have a discussion lol

well I don't know if this should be discounted completely. If ur interested, check the thread about the KB mechanics of smash ultimate and if they'll be an issue. we discussed a number of things there. One of the biggest things I think could make this possible is that this game is the ULTIMATE smash. Its quite possible that sakurai will amalgamate previous versions of smash so people can really get the ultimate experience.

Conversely, if there are a lot more refined gravity and kb options in the game, players can adjust those things to make the game feel more like melee on their own.

Also sakurai says a lot of things that contradict things he does. He changes his mind a lot.
Plus in this game he seems to be trying to make gameplay a bit faster as it is. sooo I don't think we should be discounting anything

Wouldn't adjustable physics make balancing impossible?

 

[DJ3DS]

shutup and read my msg above. comments like these don't belong here.

Comments about not wanting a Melee mode don't belong in a Melee mode discussion? Where are we supposed to post them, in the stage speculation thread? Sorry, I didn't realise what you were actually after was an echo chamber.

SSBU is its own game, with its own mechanics. Unfortunately for you, those mechanics appear to be closer to more recent iterations of the series, though Sakurai has made numerous changes to it through weakening grabs, shields, lag and general speed to attempt to increase the pace a bit to match these complaints.

Here's a thought - Sakurai has included a simply absurd amount of content in SSBU, all of which he is purportedly personally involved in the balancing of. It is a reasonable assumption that this would require balancing for every single mechanic toggle you chose, doubling the amount of work he has to do if he only includes an additional melee mode. It's an absurd request for a niche subset of people, namely those who still attend Melee tournaments. The casual player base likely doesn't really care and would prefer more content.

Of course, it's possible to implement the option for players to toggle these settings themselves, but realistically that isn't going to catch on because online would use the default setting that Sakurai intended, and because the game wouldn't be balanced around that toggle, leaving the mode likely pretty broken if you tried to use it. Not to mention every person would disagree on the precise exact toggled settings which are appropriate.

An "official" melee mode is not necessary. There are multiple fan mods you can use to play it, and you can even use things like Heavy Gravity and Smooth Lander to make the Smash 4 settings closer. Sure, they're not tournament standard, but that shouldn't factor into this discussion given that the probability a tournament would seriously run two tournaments for the same game with different toggled settings is slim at best.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Wouldn't adjustable physics make balancing impossible?

The community can work it's magic and come up with something. They did it for smash 4, but it unfortunately had some funky mechanics cause higher gravity ****ed with up b jump distance really badly for some characters.

Comments about not wanting a Melee mode don't belong in a Melee mode discussion? Where are we supposed to post them, in the stage speculation thread? Sorry, I didn't realise what you were actually after was an echo chamber.

SSBU is its own game, with its own mechanics. Unfortunately for you, those mechanics appear to be closer to more recent iterations of the series, though Sakurai has made numerous changes to it through weakening grabs, shields, lag and general speed to attempt to increase the pace a bit to match these complaints.

Here's a thought - Sakurai has included a simply absurd amount of content in SSBU, all of which he is purportedly personally involved in the balancing of. It is a reasonable assumption that this would require balancing for every single mechanic toggle you chose, doubling the amount of work he has to do if he only includes an additional melee mode. It's an absurd request for a niche subset of people, namely those who still attend Melee tournaments. The casual player base likely doesn't really care and would prefer more content.

Of course, it's possible to implement the option for players to toggle these settings themselves, but realistically that isn't going to catch on because online would use the default setting that Sakurai intended, and because the game wouldn't be balanced around that toggle, leaving the mode likely pretty broken if you tried to use it. Not to mention every person would disagree on the precise exact toggled settings which are appropriate.

An "official" melee mode is not necessary. There are multiple fan mods you can use to play it, and you can even use things like Heavy Gravity and Smooth Lander to make the Smash 4 settings closer. Sure, they're not tournament standard, but that shouldn't factor into this discussion given that the probability a tournament would seriously run two tournaments for the same game with different toggled settings is slim at best.

Your comment was a comment that has been addressed several times. Saying "if u want melee play melee" is a terrible argument. People don't want to play melee, they want to play a new game with more characters and better graphics and more refinement that has similar gameplay to melee. Repeating this over and over gets very very anoying.

Edit: Also, i'll give you another option. You know how online had "for fun" and "for glory"? That could be a setting in normal brawl too. And the "for glory" option can be a gameplay mode that is more fast paced, more akin to melee players (for online and local play).

 

[DJ3DS]

Your comment was a comment that has been addressed several times. Saying "if u want melee play melee" is a terrible argument. People don't want to play melee, they want to play a new game with more characters and better graphics and more refinement that has similar gameplay to melee. Repeating this over and over gets very very anoying.

Edit: Also, i'll give you another option. You know how online had "for fun" and "for glory"? That could be a setting in normal brawl too. And the "for glory" option can be a gameplay mode that is more fast paced, more akin to melee players (for online and local play).

"If you want Melee, play Melee" wasn't an argument, it was a statement.

If you want an argument, I forward you to the balancing issues present in multiple modes that your suggestion of having the melee mode be "for glory" doesn't address. Unless of course the inherent assumption (especially if that were the whole of the "for glory" mode) is that you want this melee mode to be the standard one the game is balanced around, which seems selfish given there is no evidence that this is the majority preferred option.

 

[Necro'lic]

I think my edit in my first post deserves reiteration, since it is directed at the idea of this thread:

To the point of this thread itself, it's so redundant. Why not just make a good competitive game everyone can enjoy casually or competitively without having to have some arbitrary mode that completely changes the physics of the game? It is doable, we are able to do it better than Melee or Project M, so why would we try to create a game within a game? The best competitive games have low skill floor, very high skill ceiling, and very few difficulty spikes. This consistent flow in difficulty in gameplay is done by giving the player explicit knowledge of all their tools very early on, so we need a good tutorial. In a multiplayer environment, it's also done by removing as much execution based balance of the game as possible, such as "frame perfect" being a requirement to even succeed. In a fast multiplayer game, execution will rear its head regardless, so why manufacture it when it isn't needed?

The last, and biggest, way to get a good competitive game is to make sure the high skilled players and low skilled players are playing the same overall game at base. This is why execution based ways to arbitrarily increase skill floor are terrible game design. The biggest example in older Smash games is L-Cancelling, though the lack of input buffer is another one that I mentioned.

Now I have to wonder, will this "Melee mode" bring with it all of these design flaws I mentioned in the last paragraph? By its very nature, it will make it so low skilled players and high skilled players are playing completely different games, which doesn't help competitive growth and also doesn't help spectatorship as much as it could, since casual players of the game will simply look at a competitive match and won't think "maybe I can do stuff like that". All they'll think is, "this isn't like the game I like". It's this disconnect that causes the disconnect with casual players in Melee trying to get into competitive when it doesn't have to be like that. This idea will necessarily cause that same disconnect no matter how much it changes. Just make a good, low skill floor, high skill ceiling game, that's it.

Why make things more complicated? Why not just have the game stand by itself as a low skill floor, high skill ceiling competitive game that not only can anyone get into, but feel like they can improve upon it without going through tedious execution based ridiculousness to just compete? Melee only does the high skill ceiling correctly, Smash 4 does the other two correctly. Why wouldn't we just want to combine the best of both worlds into one, cohesive game that does everything right?

 

[Oddball]

Melee is done. It's gone. It's not coming back.

The idea that they're going to make an entire game, then make a different version of the game that just changes how all the physics work is ludacris. There's no pay off to do this and a lot of work. The only people that want this are the super-hardcore fans of a game that's several systems out of date. It's not even a niche audiance. it's a niche of a niche audiance.

All the time and effort that it would take (which is an incredible amount) to get a mode than the majority of people don't care about would be much better used making new characters, levels, trophies, items, or anythign that the majority of the fanbase actually does care about.

And of course if they DID make that, the hardcore melee fans (the only ones asking for this) would be quick to complain about any flaws or differences that the game had from melee and there will be a lot because the characters and stages aren't designed for melee anymore.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I'd rather them make one game to be honest. You couldn't balance characters for both modes. And they need all hands on deck to work on this enormous roster.

I'm also always hearing "melee mechanics" without hearing any specifics. Do you want wavedashing, worse defensive options, characters that are literally unfinished? I would expect a laundry list of wants before even beginning to unpack what a melee mode could or should entail.

 

[MattOnwheels]

My dude....not again lol

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I've heard there's a great game out there for people who want their games to be more like Melee.

It's called Melee.

I know, it’s great. we’ll keep playing it.

have fun playing Brawl 3.

 

[osby]

I know, it’s great. we’ll keep playing it.

have fun playing Brawl 3.

Thanks, it looks promising so far.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I'd rather them make one game to be honest. You couldn't balance characters for both modes. And they need all hands on deck to work on this enormous roster.

I'm also always hearing "melee mechanics" without hearing any specifics. Do you want wavedashing, worse defensive options, characters that are literally unfinished? I would expect a laundry list of wants before even beginning to unpack what a melee mode could or should entail.

Oh you’re taking a jab at Melee, when all of the games have issues?

We could have smash 4 mechanics, with rage set knock back killing at 0, inconsistent hit boxes with characters missing literally right in front of them, “complete” characters that cost money, down throw to up air being the main combo in the game, situations where certain moves are literally untechable (1 in 4 hits), Greninja not having a functioning Up B, characters flat out having no neutral options. I can go on, as I have played both games for incredibly long periods of time.

You talk about wavedashing as if it’s bad, but you don’t even understand it’s utilility beyond just moving a set distance, where I see it as a microspacing tool, a strong option out of a Tomohawk, a great tool to navigate platforms for evasion and follow ups.

You say Melee has terrible defense options when power shielding allowed you to reflect projectiles, the option to have variable shielding a la light shield allowed you to trade shield pushback for safety, preventing shield stand and aggressive zone era from relentlessly attacking.

You’re talking about broken and unfinished characters when the games mechanics allow characters to utilize and zone properly no matter who you are using. And if you are referring to higher level play, you are going to see as many bayonetta’s as you will see Meta Knights in Brawl or Fox’s in Melee. Smash con grand finals were both Marth vs Peach for Melee and Smash 4, so the variety is definitely there, but people are trying to win.

When people say they want another Melee it’s because the game doesn’t punish you for trying to play the way you want. Limiting mobility, ledge timers , very small amounts of DI, no smash DI, hit stun canceling, and rage means you have a game that only rewards players who are willing to cripple their own intuition and enginuity to succeed. As much as people complained about Brawl I would sooner play that, as I could at least play neutral, and not have to worry about a random dash attacking having so much knock back that it literally sends me in a disadvantageous position, or a jab combo that has a fourth of a chance of sending me into an untechable situation, giving them a free punish into more down throw up air non sense.

Melee is a solid game enspite of its flaws. Why can’t people just accept the fact that players like having options? having less isn’t helping anyone.

 

[Fell God]

But we don't really, I guess...need that? The game is balanced around its own mechanics, not Melee's. Ultimate AKA god's gift isn't even out yet guys.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Melee is done. It's gone. It's not coming back.

The idea that they're going to make an entire game, then make a different version of the game that just changes how all the physics work is ludacris. There's no pay off to do this and a lot of work. The only people that want this are the super-hardcore fans of a game that's several systems out of date. It's not even a niche audiance. it's a niche of a niche audiance.

All the time and effort that it would take (which is an incredible amount) to get a mode than the majority of people don't care about would be much better used making new characters, levels, trophies, items, or anythign that the majority of the fanbase actually does care about.

And of course if they DID make that, the hardcore melee fans (the only ones asking for this) would be quick to complain about any flaws or differences that the game had from melee and there will be a lot because the characters and stages aren't designed for melee anymore.

Melee never left. Where have you been? Lol

Average viewership for this game you claim is outdated is on average higher than Smash 4. Why do you think that Smash 4 finishes before Melee? Because it’s more entertaining, and there is a level of unpredictably and excitement from watching the game because it’s mechanically sound.

So your argument is that because the game is old, it’s obsilete? Having you heard the phrase “ahead of its time”? It clearly applies to Melee since the game is still going strong. You have the internet, do yourself a favor and stop avoiding the truth please it’s embarrasing lol.

I want another “Melee” because I’m not only a smasher, I’m a fighting game enthusiast.

What Melee gave players were options.

options.

options.

say it with me!

Options!!

There are definitely people want a carbon copy of the game, but I believe what people want is a game that offered the breath of creativity the game allows without offering gimmicks or nerfing what made previous installments great.

In Street Fighter, each installment gave characters options, like with Street Fighter 3 giving players the option to dash, also introducing super jumps, and the famous parry mechanic. In Street Fighter 4 dashes were nerfed due to FADC’a being a mechanic that was overwhelming. Even though there was invincibility on back dashes, it was rendered useless because you can just pummel the opponents defense into an oblivion. This also introduced option selecting into the series, which allowed players to buffer inputs for multiple situations. In Street Fighter 5, option selecting was removed, same with 1 frame links for lengthy combos. This made the game very offense heavy, simple, and not as entertaining as it’s previous installments. This decline is due to constantly removing and needing core mechanics in favor of supporting a gimmick like X-factor, or in this case, V-trigger.

Look at Smash in comparison. Melee introduced, multiple throw directions, spot dodging, aerial dodges, directional influence, improved dash dancing, refined L-Canceling, frame one ledge drops were still in, variable shielding was introduced, and couple things I may be missing. The game was later discovered as a success as a competitive fighter and party game. Now look at the trend from Brawl moving forward. Brawl removed the ability to drop from the ledge instantly and introduced the ledge timer, introduced hit stun canceling, removed dash dancing, introduced tripping, and I’m it’s wake introduced final smashes as the main gimmick. And even though I loved the game, it wasn’t meant to thrive. Moving forward to Smash 4, it just touched upon what Brawl had, but severely nerfed DI, forcing combos to work or “patching in” combos, gave some moves ridiculous knock back at low percents just so a characters gimmick can work (this is counterintuitive to the series as a character shouldn’t normally fly after a certain percent), and the games neutral heavily favors random hits, ledge trumping just puts opponents in positions where they have to leave the ledge immediately and get punished with their limited options. All of these things are leading to the same stagnation Brawl suffered from.

I’ve played Ultimate already, and it does feel like a step in the right direction and feels great to play, but I’m not sure if that’s just the part of me that is excited to play another smash or is it truly an improvement. I say it’s the latter, but there are still some limits like the ledge timer and not being able to utilize the air doge to chase on platforms or ledge dash off platforms.

Maybe it’s because I have had the fortune to play Melee during its growth with so many people why I love the game so much, but i find it hard pressed to deny how much the game offers to players. I want Ultimate to build upon what made the smash games great without finding the need to hinder players. I would honestly love it if the ledge nonesense was gone. If you can drop ledge like Melee and 64 you would be able to punish ledge trumps, and when you did get one you truly earned that. I mean, characters with a tether can instant drop ledge, I feel like everyone should, unless they’re gonna pull a Brawl and give only some characters the option to do it like the 3 in the game that could glide lol.

 

[Fell God]

Moving forward to Smash 4, it just touched upon what Brawl had, but severely nerfed DI, forcing combos to work or “patching in” combos, gave some moves ridiculous knock back at low percents just so a characters gimmick can work (this is counterintuitive to the series as a character shouldn’t normally fly after a certain percent), and the games neutral heavily favors random hits, ledge trumping just puts opponents in positions where they have to leave the ledge immediately and get punished with their limited options. All of these things are leading to the same stagnation Brawl suffered from.

What gimmicks

 

[Necro'lic]

E Eternal phoenix Fire

I understand the sentiment of Smash feeling like it's gone backwards from Melee and just playing catch up, but honestly, while Melee does things right, it also does things wrong, sometimes on an objective level. One big one I think we went through a hell of a discussion on was L-Cancelling, which honestly is one out of VERY few issues in Melee I can say with confidence is objectively poor/superfluous design. And it's not because it's in Melee and not Smash 4, either. At the same time, I'd rather have more options to work with, that much can't be argued.

You say Smash 4 favors "random hits", which I'm guessing means safe combo starters that are shot out in neutral? What fighting game doesn't involve the user using safe moves in neutral to get to an advantage state while at the same time giving their opponent little chance to get them into disadvantage? Unless that's not what you're talking about.

As for the ledge, I'm at least glad you aren't supporting the likes of edge hogging (another objective flaw in Melee) and seem to like ledge trumping but not the ledge timer. Honestly, I had no idea there was a ledge timer, but as you point out, it would definitely benefit the game to heavily decrease it, if not remove it. Agreed there. It would definitely still have to include ledge trumping and no ledge intangibility refresh still, since I find those particular mechanics amazing for allowing more interaction and less ledge camping respectively.

I only hope that your bias for Melee isn't clouding your judgment as much as you assume biases other people have for Smash 4 cloud theirs.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Oh you’re taking a jab at Melee, when all of the games have issues?

uhm...no? I didn't express any opinion about Melee in my post. Just listed off three random things that make it unique while asking for the OP to elaborate on what a Melee Mode would even be in Ultimate. Btw still don't have any answers at all. There is no room for constructive conversation until this term gets defined. But for it to get defined, that would require somebody that actually understands the differences and similarities between Melee and later games. Such people are in veeeeeerrrry short supply in the Ultimate Forum.

If I wanted a punching bag I'd sooner target Smash 64 or Brawl. Don't get me started on 64.

 

[Quillion]

You know what? I find that hardcore Melee fans and hardcore Smash newheads are equally bad in the "Melee mechanics" discussion.

Hardcore Smash newheads want to throw the baby out with the bathwater; never wanting to build upon what Melee did right and associating it with its less refined aspects.

Melee fans just want to keep the baby and the bathwater; insisting that the flaws of Melee are "part of the game" and should always be kept no matter how much others dislike it.

So I want to go for a balanced approach. And Ultimate is already doing a lot for a balanced approach: L-Canceling is now replaced with universally low landing lag (more on that discussion here) and Directional Airdodging is coming back without making it nigh-useless like in Melee (meaning that you can BOTH do recovery mixup and actually dodge in midair).

But there are a few things I would like to build upon from Melee. NOT bring back unchanged, but build upon.

I agree with BronzeGreekGod on reducing endlag all around, but I think a better approach would be to have more low-knockback moves that can actually encourage real combos. They should decrease base knockback so that it's easy for characters all around to link moves one into the other. And they shouldn't make it so that only Fox, Falco, Marth, and Sheik can take advantage of it; this should be a universal thing.

And wavedashing is a fantastic concept that can be developed into an actual mechanic. But I also like Ultimate's new airdodge. So why not make wavedashing a separate button? You could still adjust your wavedash length for macro or micro spacing with the control stick, but it wouldn't require having to time your jumping. And they could even introduce an "air dash" mechanic that would essentially be aerial wavedashing. Bayonetta's ladder combos wouldn't be exclusive to her anymore!

And lastly, universal attack jump canceling. I want more characters other than Fox and Falco to be able to cancel certain moves by jumping, which could then lead to wavedashing out of those moves. This way everyone can have combos that are rewarding to practice and pull off, and not just by spamming waveshines all over the place.

Honestly, I think even Project M made the opposite mistake of post-Melee games by sticking way too close to Melee mechanics, warts and all, without really building on it (they just kept a few Brawl mechanics and called it a day). The most ideal Smash game would try to do more with Melee's unique concepts while reconciling them with new Smash mechanics.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I think my edit in my first post deserves reiteration, since it is directed at the idea of this thread:



Why make things more complicated? Why not just have the game stand by itself as a low skill floor, high skill ceiling competitive game that not only can anyone get into, but feel like they can improve upon it without going through tedious execution based ridiculousness to just compete? Melee only does the high skill ceiling correctly, Smash 4 does the other two correctly. Why wouldn't we just want to combine the best of both worlds into one, cohesive game that does everything right?

What is this claim, that the game is so “complicated” that you can’t get into it? You still attack the opponent to increase there percent to knock them off the stage correct? That has not changed.

If you are referring to the technical barriers of Melee, learning to execute an L-cancel, or wave dash, or power shield, or ledge drop, is the same in every game. I’m Brawl, players had to learn to DACUS, which I argue is harder and more inconsistent than a wave dash. You also had to learn platform canceling, and grab release set ups on certain characters. Same with Smash 4 with perfect pivoting and bidou (if you use it). Each game has its mechanics to learn.

What I think you are confusing arbitrary mechanical learning with is an ineptitude to see the game from a different perspective / the inability to adapt / unable to shift your mentality of the game.

We all know how to play the game at a base level, but each is different. In Melee, when you knock an opponent up to a platform, if you are intuitive enough, you have the ability to use your air dodge to wave land on a platform and follow up with a ground option, or even just maintain positioning. This existed in Brawl to an extent on smahville and stages that have platforms which you can platform cancel on like Lylat. The option to do this in Smash 4 is non existent so you only have the option to bait an air dodge.

Basically what I’m getting at is that the mechanics in Melee weren’t just random complications, but existed to supplement the players ability to truly play a platform fighter. Why do the platforms in this game even exist if I don’t have the ability to fully utilize them? ledge dashing and ledge canceling aerials are great unique smash mechanics that sublime red it’s depth and make it a great fighter in its own regard, now everything is being boiled down to being a carbon copy of what other fighting games are doing now; make something obviously punishable, and make the punish obvious. That’s really ****ing boring, and the reason why I personally haven’t bern playing as many games as I used to, aside from the fact that I have much more responsibilities, but I would sooner do something else.

Please, please, please don’t just throw out words like “complicated” because that’s just self-defeatist nonsense that feeds our current generation complacency that breeds individuals who seek pandering as a form of self-help, which is the lowest and most absurd. If people don’t have the physical dexterity to SIT DOWN, and learn some technical mechanics in a game then you don’t need to be playing a competitive game. If you can learn to pass, dribble, free throw, screen, maintain a certain level of physical prowess, then I don’t need you playing on my ball team.

All the smash games function the same at the core level. You should always be expected to put forth more to succeed, assuming that you even can. Just because you learn all the tech doesn’t mean you are going to have player experience, match up experience, composure, the ability to deal with tournament nerves, stage counter picks, reaction time, momentum, analytical ability, which are all very critical to competing. A friend of mine always talked **** about how good they were I’m guilty gear because they can do the combos I’m training mode, then went to EVO and went 0-2.

Knowing the tech doesn’t matter, but taking it all away for people who thinks it does is ridiculous, and also boring.

And as far as smash 4 “doing things right” please tell me what it did correct besides outside of hindering certain core mechanics? Yeah, it has combos, but no DI. It has follow ups and reads, but only because your options are forced. There are comebacks, but that’s because of rage and miss inputs like C-stick jabs / Nair. I can’t think of the game doing a lot right outside of being patched.

 

[Teeb147]

I am FOR melee mode.

Landing lag has already been reduced, but it could be a bit more, and there's tons of other mechanics that could be simulated. besides better wavedashing, there's quite a bit, namely personally what I want is momemtum from running carried to air speed when jumping.

So long as it could just exist with a few tweeks available, fans would figure out what to put in or not for competitive.
It could be simple, and worth it. I'd play regular more probably, but the mode makes sense as an option.

 

[Necro'lic]

E Eternal phoenix Fire

I'm not sure how you went into a huge tirade against my use of the word "complicated". It isn't even meaning what you think it was in that context. I was talking about the idea of the developers making two basically different games by adding a "Melee mode" with completely different physics. It had nothing to do with the complexity of the game proper, just the complexity of creating it for the developers.

And because of this misunderstanding, the rest of your comment is built on a faulty premise that makes it look like you are talking to someone that isn't me. You already understand my general idea of how this game can move forward, so how did you end up saying that I want things to not be complicated gameplay-wise? Why would you think I was against dynamic combos and punish game when I have repeatedly said again and again that I want DI to actually be more prominent? Why would you assume that me not liking certain mechanics being difficult to execute is because they are too difficult for ME to execute? I'm sure I could do it with enough practice like anyone else, and if I cared enough, I would. But that's not why I criticize these mechanics, and you know this.

We have discussed stuff of this nature before, and yet your response is filled with so much vitriol pointed towards me for stuff that I don't support, or if I do, it's not for the reasons you state.

 

[Teeb147]

E Eternal phoenix Fire

I was talking about the idea of the developers making two basically different games by adding a "Melee mode" with completely different physics. It had nothing to do with the complexity of the game proper, just the complexity of creating it for the developers.

In smash 4, there were ways to simulate melee a bit by using equipment, such as faster and little landing lag, and stuff for gravity. Some people had exact ways to tune it, but you needed the right stuff.. I don't like equipment, plus you had to unlock it, but imagine a mode where it's not necessarily melee mode, but one where you can tweek the physics and some things (beyond what we already have), like it but simpler and maybe some presets or even sets that people could make and share (maybe it'd give you a code for the set).

I'm just presenting this idea because I think it'd be great to have, to make new modes and share them with people, as well as figure the best set for people who come from melee. I feel like I've had a vision about this being possible at some point or something
Either that or a melee mode (if nintendo can reproduce it themselves)

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

You know what? I find that hardcore Melee fans and hardcore Smash newheads are equally bad in the "Melee mechanics" discussion.

Hardcore Smash newheads want to throw the baby out with the bathwater; never wanting to build upon what Melee did right and associating it with its less refined aspects.

Melee fans just want to keep the baby and the bathwater; insisting that the flaws of Melee are "part of the game" and should always be kept no matter how much others dislike it.

So I want to go for a balanced approach. And Ultimate is already doing a lot for a balanced approach: L-Canceling is now replaced with universally low landing lag (more on that discussion here) and Directional Airdodging is coming back without making it nigh-useless like in Melee (meaning that you can BOTH do recovery mixup and actually dodge in midair).

But there are a few things I would like to build upon from Melee. NOT bring back unchanged, but build upon.

I agree with BronzeGreekGod on reducing endlag all around, but I think a better approach would be to have more low-knockback moves that can actually encourage real combos. They should decrease base knockback so that it's easy for characters all around to link moves one into the other. And they shouldn't make it so that only Fox, Falco, Marth, and Sheik can take advantage of it; this should be a universal thing.

And wavedashing is a fantastic concept that can be developed into an actual mechanic. But I also like Ultimate's new airdodge. So why not make wavedashing a separate button? You could still adjust your wavedash length for macro or micro spacing with the control stick, but it wouldn't require having to time your jumping. And they could even introduce an "air dash" mechanic that would essentially be aerial wavedashing. Bayonetta's ladder combos wouldn't be exclusive to her anymore!

And lastly, universal attack jump canceling. I want more characters other than Fox and Falco to be able to cancel certain moves by jumping, which could then lead to wavedashing out of those moves. This way everyone can have combos that are rewarding to practice and pull off, and not just by spamming waveshines all over the place.

Honestly, I think even Project M made the opposite mistake of post-Melee games by sticking way too close to Melee mechanics, warts and all, without really building on it (they just kept a few Brawl mechanics and called it a day). The most ideal Smash game would try to do more with Melee's unique concepts while reconciling them with new Smash mechanics.

I gota read through this stil, but to ur initial point, I can't speak for all melee players, but I know melee isn't perfect. I've mentioned this before, project m is better than melee imo. Melee has many flaws and what I want is a game that essentially uses melees engine and improves on it. It doesn't haveeee to use melees engine even. That's just a logical suggestion cause why the f start from scratch? Mele is not eprfect. I'd like to see a game that takes the best from melee and makes a better new game rather than taking from brawl.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

E Eternal phoenix Fire

I understand the sentiment of Smash feeling like it's gone backwards from Melee and just playing catch up, but honestly, while Melee does things right, it also does things wrong, sometimes on an objective level. One big one I think we went through a hell of a discussion on was L-Cancelling, which honestly is one out of VERY few issues in Melee I can say with confidence is objectively poor/superfluous design. And it's not because it's in Melee and not Smash 4, either. At the same time, I'd rather have more options to work with, that much can't be argued.

You say Smash 4 favors "random hits", which I'm guessing means safe combo starters that are shot out in neutral? What fighting game doesn't involve the user using safe moves in neutral to get to an advantage state while at the same time giving their opponent little chance to get them into disadvantage? Unless that's not what you're talking about.

As for the ledge, I'm at least glad you aren't supporting the likes of edge hogging (another objective flaw in Melee) and seem to like ledge trumping but not the ledge timer. Honestly, I had no idea there was a ledge timer, but as you point out, it would definitely benefit the game to heavily decrease it, if not remove it. Agreed there. It would definitely still have to include ledge trumping and no ledge intangibility refresh still, since I find those particular mechanics amazing for allowing more interaction and less ledge camping respectively.

I only hope that your bias for Melee isn't clouding your judgment as much as you assume biases other people have for Smash 4 cloud theirs.

I play all the smash games.

I have played Smash 4 a lot. More hours than the average player on here. I’ve practiced with players winning nationals, and know then on a personal level. Running a friendly gauntlets with players like ESAM, Nairo, Tyrant, K9, FOW, Larry, Void, Xzax, Mr. R, Zero, I can go on. Living with them, you had no choice to play.

I only say these things because I know through experience.

As far as the random hits are concerned I’m talking about moves that have skewed knockback that force you out of neutral position. Instead of having a series of moves a character like Meta Knight can use in a neutral position, he mainly uses dash attack, which follows into a string of up airs. Luigi has his jab that forces you into s position to get fireball spammed or which can lead to getting grabbed, and that’s his entire game. Fox has a dash attack that leads into a frame disadvantage or a string of annoying up tilts that lead into up air strings or just baiting air dodges. And even Marth now with a jab that basically forces you into a 50/50 off the bat, or a free dancing blade/kill confirm. This is suboptimal methods of creating an artificial sense of depth by creating dial-a-combo’s, and with no SDI or ability to maneuver, it gets bland. If I was able to SDI out of Marth’s Jab he would have to be creative with his follow ups. If I SDI far enough for example, he couple probably read that into a tipper down smash, and if there is enough stun he could probably follow up with something. That’s atleast something.

As much as I love smash in general, none of this is bias based on the game I’m playing, but I can easily recognize which games feel better to play.

 

[Necro'lic]

In smash 4, there were ways to simulate melee a bit by using equipment, such as faster and little landing lag, and stuff for gravity. Some people had exact ways to tune it, but you needed the right stuff.. I don't like equipment, plus you had to unlock it, but imagine a mode where it's not necessarily melee mode, but one where you can tweek the physics and some things, like it but simpler and maybe some presets or even sets that people could make and share (maybe it'd give you a code for the set).

I'm just presenting this idea because I think it'd be great to have, to make new modes and share them with people, as well as figure the best set for people who come from melee. I feel like I've had a vision about this being possible at some point or something
Either that or a melee mode (if nintendo can reproduce it themselves)

But then the issue of splitting the competitive and casual communities takes hold, as well as fracturing the competitive community into "camps". It's far better for everyone at all levels to play basically the same game as everyone else, at least within certain rules the game explicitly gives, in Smash's case at least. The lower the amount of changes between competitive and casual, the better. Plus, Nintendo needs to officially endorse these rules (1v1 3 stock, certain stages, no items, etc) as the official "competitive Smash" and it should have as few difference between regular play as possible. Adding even more differences through physic manipulation, which affects how all characters act and how moves work as well as messes with their balance and design, will only hurt in the long run when people start dividing themselves into one or the other camp more and more.

 

[Quillion]

I gota read through this stil, but to ur initial point, I can't speak for all melee players, but I know melee isn't perfect. I've mentioned this before, project m is better than melee imo. Melee has many flaws and what I want is a game that essentially uses melees engine and improves on it. It doesn't haveeee to use melees engine even. That's just a logical suggestion cause why the f start from scratch? Mele is not eprfect. I'd like to see a game that takes the best from melee and makes a better new game rather than taking from brawl.

Yeah, I know most people will say Melee isn't perfect, but I have seen hardcore Melee fans defend everything about Melee, down to its warts and blemishes. That's why I had to attack both extremes.

And PM wasn't for me. I understand recreating a lot of Melee's mechanics in Brawl's engine, but it's still not the evolution of Melee I want, and it went backwards in a lot of ways.

Love your Project Ganondorf, though! I kinda wish you or someone else would make a vBrawl port where I think I would enjoy it more.

 

[Competitively]

Brawl > Melee change my mind

No but seriously sakurai stated multiple times that he doesn’t like melee and believes it’s too technical.

“I think a lot of Melee players love Melee. But at the same time, I think a lot of players, on the other hand, gave up on Melee because it’s too technical, because they can’t keep up with it,” Sakurai said. “And I know there were players who got tendinitis from playing, and messing with the controller so much . . . that really is hard on the player.”

 

[Teeb147]

But then the issue of splitting the competitive and casual communities takes hold, as well as fracturing the competitive community into "camps". It's far better for everyone at all levels to play basically the same game as everyone else, at least within certain rules the game explicitly gives, in Smash's case at least. The lower the amount of changes between competitive and casual, the better. Plus, Nintendo needs to officially endorse these rules (1v1 3 stock, certain stages, no items, etc) as the official "competitive Smash" and it should have as few difference between regular play as possible. Adding even more differences through physic manipulation, which affects how all characters act and how moves work as well as messes with their balance and design, will only hurt in the long run when people start dividing themselves into one or the other camp more and more.

You're right. But I have a feeling that once a set sticks and proves the test of time, it would get better, and some things might be changed or banned, but, it would be fine. And right now we have tourneys with smash 4 and melee. If melee can get phased out by this mode, it would just transfer over to Smash5 and Smash5Melee. I mean, yes, there's a risk for it, at first, but I feel like in this case it'd be ok, things would work out in the end. It'd be simpler with just a melee mode, not as much variance, but I think having the ability to make new modes would be gold, and not phase out the regular physics.. especially for balance as nintendo spent a lot on it, and will patch too.

 

[Quillion]

If we're going to get a newer Melee-like Smash game, I'd rather that Nintendo license it out to a company with experience in competitive fighters like Capcom or ArcSys with Sakurai only serving as a cursory supervisor role. No need to shoehorn it into a game that's not going to fulfill it.

They should develop it with a small roster in mind so that they can balance the characters better, then design the mechanics to be fast-paced, yet more universal so that certain tools like wavedash-cancelled moves can be used by everyone.

It could become a new subseries of Smash. Super Smash Bros. Prime? Super Smash Bros. Masters?

Game Freak is going to split Pokémon into Let's Go and the main series now. So I'd like to see Smash do the same thing.

 

[Necro'lic]

Teeb147 But then at that point, why not just have "Melee mode" be the default? And that's when we get back to what exactly would this "Melee mode" entail? Because even if it's successful in terms of competitive, the big problem of splitting the overall community still remains, so why would we want that? Why would anyone want to watch a game that they don't play? Because if Melee mode is sufficiently different enough, and again, since the main changes seem to be physics of the engine, it will necessarily be VERY different in pretty much all aspects, at that point a Smash Ultimate fan isn't watching a game they play, but a new game within a game they play. It still would cause divide and disconnect when it could be avoided by just having this competitive mode be the main game, so everyone is working with the same base.

But like I said, that brings us back to what exactly will change with this mode. The point is that this entire thing is still pointlessly complicated for everyone involved.

 

[Quillion]

Teeb147 But then at that point, why not just have "Melee mode" be the default? And that's when we get back to what exactly would this "Melee mode" entail? Because even if it's successful in terms of competitive, the big problem of splitting the overall community still remains, so why would we want that? Why would anyone want to watch a game that they don't play? Because if Melee mode is sufficiently different enough, and again, since the main changes seem to be physics of the engine, it will necessarily be VERY different in pretty much all aspects, at that point a Smash Ultimate fan isn't watching a game they play, but a new game within a game they play. It still would cause divide and disconnect when it could be avoided by just having this competitive mode be the main game, so everyone is working with the same base.

But like I said, that brings us back to what exactly will change with this mode. The point is that this entire thing is still pointlessly complicated for everyone involved.

Then like I said just now, let's have a Melee-like spinoff series instead. Farm it out to a new developer with Sakurai supervising. Allow said developer to have open contact with professional Smash players. Let said developer find ways to increase the developmental potential of the game while retaining a low entry barrier and good balance for all the cast.

 

[Teeb147]

Teeb147 But then at that point, why not just have "Melee mode" be the default? And that's when we get back to what exactly would this "Melee mode" entail? Because even if it's successful in terms of competitive, the big problem of splitting the overall community still remains, so why would we want that? Why would anyone want to watch a game that they don't play? Because if Melee mode is sufficiently different enough, and again, since the main changes seem to be physics of the engine, it will necessarily be VERY different in pretty much all aspects, at that point a Smash Ultimate fan isn't watching a game they play, but a new game within a game they play. It still would cause divide and disconnect when it could be avoided by just having this competitive mode be the main game, so everyone is working with the same base.

But like I said, that brings us back to what exactly will change with this mode. The point is that this entire thing is still pointlessly complicated for everyone involved.

Yeh can be a default.. if they do it right.
Ultimate is just not going to be like melee in some respects, so it's either leave it out, or include it in some mode (or the detailed mode-maker I mentioned).
If you leave it out, there will keep being a bigger split between new smash and old smash (melee). If you include it then there's going to be discussion and potential resolution or at least more connection between old players and newer ones. And it'd be up to the individual whether they want to play the mode competitively or stick to the regular game. There could be a symbol on top of the screen or something, a watermark, to say when it's in melee mode, so people would know what they're watching.

And yes, it is kind of a new game within it, but it wouldnt have been as focused on and may not be as balanced. It's like leaving it in the hands of the fans, as a mode, not as a game, to tweek or figure out what or who to ban, or whatever is needed to make it competitive.

Then like I said just now, let's have a Melee-like spinoff series instead. Farm it out to a new developer with Sakurai supervising. Allow said developer to have open contact with professional Smash players. Let said developer find ways to increase the developmental potential of the game while retaining a low entry barrier and good balance for all the cast.

that's a good idea too.