"melee mode" discussion

[Quillion]

I've mentioned several times the issue with this though. High Gravity completely messes up a lot of characters' jumps (especially up b's). There would need to be another toggle to increase vertical movement to balance for the gravity increase. Also, the gravity option would benefit from a slider toggle cause it might be a bit too much gravity by default. And then there's the issue of attack endlag which either needs to be decreased, or hitstun needs to be increased as we talked about, which can also have a slider toggle.

Those 3 slider toggles would do the trick I think.

I get what you mean. I kinda wish jumping was calculated as a distance and not as a force in any of the Smash engines. Just adding plain fastfalling is something that I've wanted from HG mode for a while.

 

[TheTrueBrawler]

Even though this is at least the forth time I have had to say this, I will say it again. Having two modes to balance would be astronomically difficult for the development team considering that they couldn't even get it right in Smash 4.

Also, Nintendo didn't even like how Smash Melee turned out. That's why they went in a different direction with Smash Brawl even though they went too far that way. If they did like the game they made, then Smash Melee HD or Smash Melee V2 would be a thing by now.

As much as the Melee fan base wants this Melee mode so they can enjoy their beloved game while simultaneously getting new content to play around with, there is no way on earth it is going to happen. Melee mode just doesn't belong in a game that has been moving on from its past for 17 years. Besides, the Melee fan base won't accept a Melee mode unless it has all of these changes in it.

Spoiler: Changes

- Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik, Peach, Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon, Luigi, Ice Climbers, Yoshi, Samus, Doctor Mario, and, Ganondorf all identically restored to their melee movesets. This means Sheik and Zelda have to transform into each other, Yoshi can't jump out of shield, ICs being able to wobble, etc.
- All important movement and technical mechanics are 1 to 1 with melee:
Wavedash/land, dash dance, analog light shields (impossible to do with Ultimate's engine btw), same gravity, same aerial drift, same ledge mechanics, slow air dodge + instant helpless after, slower rolls than Ultimate, shield health depleting way faster than Ultimate, L-canceling, slide off mechanics, same hitstun/shield stun, no hitstun cancelling, etc.
- NERFED recoveries for brawl/sm4sh movesets. Only jigglypuff was the only character in melee whose recovery seemed ridiculous. Most brawl/sm4sh movesets had way too forgiving recoveries because of the ledge mechanics, gravity, aerial drift, and their actual recovery.
- Dreamland being restored to melee size, and the other stages having the same sized blastzones as their melee counterparts.

 

[Polan]

For the love of god. What don't you people understand? We want to play a game with melees pacing with the ultimate roster.

I have a hilarious comment I'm going to begrudgingly omit right now to avoid any flaming accusations.

well if you don't like ultimate's pacing, that's too bad. smash ultimate isn't melee and it doesn't need to be melee. play PM if you want more characters or one of the smash clones like RoA if you want a modern melee-styled game. don't force melee on a game that is clearly not meant to be melee. also post your hilarious comment.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

I honestly believe that Ultimate will eventually get a Project M style mod but by the time it happens, there might be another Smash game in development. In that case, it'll die out like Project M did. Sakurai isn't gonna make another Melee game and I doubt Nintendo would want one either. I think the best option is to get the community to do it.

orwaitformeleehd

Friend, project m is absolutely not dead lol. The only unfortunate thing that happened was the devs stopped developing it cause they wanted to make money. The things they had planned for it were amazing and it pains me that they stopped - though I understand why they needed to. But it is absolutely not dead. People still play pm heavily, and the community is still making mods for it.


Also TheTrueBrawler , and for people feleing bad for Sakurai and everything, I get it, he's working hard. But he's doing his job. Are you gona feel bad for someone working hard building a house properly? Are they supposed to do a half assed job? He's doing his job and he's being paid damn well for it.

That said, I do appreciate his work very much and I think he's doing agreat job overall. But he has all the tools and rsources to do anything he wants relatively easily. Me (with no previous coding or animating experience) being able to figure out how to mod brawl and take time to make project ganon come together, and prior to me, the community being able to backwards manufacture the game to be able to mod it in the first place tells me that Sakurai really can do anything. A group of 50 random ppl were able to make project m happen. U teling me sakurais well paid proffesional game creating team can't do literally anythng? Of course, the pmdt had the games' engine to work with (they didn't create from scratch), but so does sakurai at this point, and he doesnt have to learn how to use the engine! Plus with dlc they've got us paying for new content indefinitely. Why does anyone expect anything less than EVERYTHING?

 

[b2jammer]

As a mid-level Smash 4 player, I'l like to throw my two cents into the discussion as well. First, I'm against the "high-level play mode" toggle for many reasons people have already brought up in this thread (balancing would be a nightmare, only appeals to a niche audience, etc), so the major changes would have to be to the engine as it already exists.

L-canceling is entirely redundant seeing as landing lag has been shortened so much already (and besides, having to press a button just to land correctly just raises the skill floor without adding any actual depth whatsoever). Edge-hogging would be excessive, seeing as edge-guarding seems to be a bit more forgiving to the edge-guarder than it was in Smash 4. I think the gameplay speed and gravity are largely good as they are in Ultimate, but I wouldn't mind a little more hitstun to compensate for the balloon knockback, and I'm okay with the return of the directional air dodge, especially since it helps to compensate for the heavy nerfs that the dodging system received as a whole.

Of course, with the directional air-dodge comes the whole Wavedashing problem; Melee fans love it for the increased movement and spacing options it adds to the game, while Brawl/4 fans like myself don't care for its somewhat counter-intuitive input (short-hop then air-dodge for a grounded movement option just sounds a little silly, and this is in a game where the most difficult input would (should?) normally be "tap a direction and A at the same time to do a smash attack"). As for how it could be implemented into Ultimate, it's mostly covered already. The ability to dash-cancel into just about any ground move covers most uses of wavedashing forwards, and I can't think of any good reason to wavedash straight down when you could just dash-dance or spot dodge.

That just leaves wavedashing backwards, which could be simulated by giving every character a backwards initial dash animation (a backdash, if you will). Unless you held the stick through the entire initial dash or pressed A to perform a dash attack, the character would step back without turning around, allowing you to tap backwards and then follow up with a spaced ground attack or short hop. If you needed to vary your distance for spacing purposes, just use a shorter or longer tap. It's simple to use (just tap a direction), easy to learn about (a player can visibly see their character shuffle backwards before having to turn around), and there's some precedent to the mechanic (as Ryu's Focus Cancel has a very similar effect).

 

[Union of Darkness]

That said, I do appreciate his work very much and I think he's doing agreat job overall. But he has all the tools and rsources to do anything he wants relatively easily. Me (with no previous coding or animating experience) being able to figure out how to mod brawl and take time to make project ganon come together, and prior to me, the community being able to backwards manufacture the game to be able to mod it in the first place tells me that Sakurai really can do anything. A group of 50 random ppl were able to make project m happen. U teling me sakurais well paid proffesional game creating team can't do literally anythng? Of course, the pmdt had the games' engine to work with (they didn't create from scratch), but so does sakurai at this point, and he doesnt have to learn how to use the engine! Plus with dlc they've got us paying for new content indefinitely. Why does anyone expect anything less than EVERYTHING?

This is such a lack of understanding. Sakurai can do anything? Don't be so naive. I apologize for sounding harsh, but it makes me absolutely sick to see people grossly simplify the concept of game development like this.

 

[Kabutops]

People need to stop saying "go play Project M." It's dead and illegal.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

People need to stop saying "go play Project M." It's dead and illegal.

Wrong. The game is far from dead. People still play it very competitively. And people are still making mods for it. The only reason the pmdt stopped making it was so they can make their own game and make some money. And it's hardly illega lol. That's hillarious.

 

[SmashShadow]

Honestly, the only thing I would want back is edgehogging. Ledge trumping is probably my least fav mechanic introduced in Smash 4.

 

[Kugelhagelfisch]

So this is basically "Wouldn't it be awesome if this next version of Smash was perfect and everyone would be happy with it?". Yes, it would be.
The notion that "people" don't want Melee seems to be wrong, listening to Melee players in general. I don't think it's controversial to say that they very much do want Melee, just more characters, better graphics, more stages and have everything be viable for tournament play. That they want something that's just "like Melee" is a pretty exclusive opinion and one that will likely not be catered to by the developers.

Just because "wouldn't it be cool" is a very easy thing to think up and just because you're infatuated with that idea of yours and aggressively insist on it being the way to go, doesn't mean that anybody will realise that vision of yours or that it's even possible to be done.

 

[Kabutops]

Wrong. The game is far from dead. People still play it very competitively. And people are still making mods for it. The only reason the pmdt stopped making it was so they can make their own game and make some money. And it's hardly illega lol. That's hillarious.

I meant dead as in it's no longer being developed. And I don't know what "hardly illegal" is supposed to mean. Is it legal or not? Also, what is PMDT currently working on? Have they revealed anything?

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

I meant dead as in it's no longer being developed. And I don't know what "hardly illegal" is supposed to mean. Is it legal or not? Also, what is PMDT currently working on? Have they revealed anything?

It's not really illegal. No one's getting in any trouble for playing it. And pmdt are working on a game called "icons: combat arena". They've revealed some stuff u can look up.

 

[Zoa]

Oh hey, BGG. Are you still working on that Project Ganondorf mod? Haven't checked in a long time, but I'd like to have magic based Ganondorf in without having to remove Luc. He's one of my primary characters I play. :V

On topic, I do agree I'd like to have a more Melee-esque game. Not a 1:1 port mind you. Just some changes in Ultimate, and I'd be down to play it. Just reduce the landing lag on the directional air dodges to 10 frames like a wavedash in Melee, and have it go off platforms, and boom you've got a movement option lots of players have been looking for. However, I'm much more interested in proper dash dances making an appearance again. This was used a lot more in neutral than wavedashes.

But I do have some serious qualms that are preventing me from buying Ultimate until I have answers. Hitstun canceling being the biggest one. This shouldn't exist period. It was horrible in Brawl, but still existed in Smash 4, and still ruined combos. It occurs on frame 40 with an air dodge, and 45 for an aerial in Smash 4. Frame 13 for air dodge in Brawl >.>. Also IIRC, the hitstun formula in Smash also had hitstun last one less frame unless the attack was an electric hitbox. I don't want this to come back ever.

I like a lot of the changes so far in Ultimate with its universal three frame jump squat, some character revisions, etc., but it looks like gravity is still too floaty. Would love some higher gravity overall. Also removing how gravity affects vertical launch power would be awesome.

And I know this'll sound bad, but remove the grab timer. Not a fan of it, but I understand why it was implemented. Some chaingrabs were okay because they weren't excessive. Maybe balance this out, too, so nothing is too rewarding for a grab. Ganondorf's chaingrab, for instance, I think was fair given how short his grab range has historically been.

Remove the absolutely ridiculous jank. Zamus' Boost Kick having over 200 BKB (or is it KBG? I forgot which.), Luma killing with uair on Zard or Diddy at 20%, Bayo's extremely toxic kit overall and incredibly broken combo/punish game in relation to the rest of the cast, etc.

Gut recoveries across the board. Smash 4 is too lenient with them. You should be at a serious disadvantage off the stage.

Just some things off the top of my head.