"melee mode" discussion

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

So much this. Melee casual content really feels barebones.

Personal opinion. Not to mention, items spawn quicker in Melee due to most of the items having a lower poly count than in the following games. I can still use all I’ve my tech when playing as well, and there are even Melee item combo videos that are on the net. I’ve seen some sick stuff with the umbrella, and even combo an opponent accoss platforms into a home-run bat swing, things you can’t do in other smash games that’s for sure.

I’ve spend hours playing Break the Targets with all the characters, adventure mode is still fun, race to the finish is hype! and while there are definitely more modes in ultimate that I would really love to try, having something simple is fine, like home run contest or all star mode. Smash 4 had smash tour, but you needed to have 4 willing participants sit through the game, and crazy orders / master orders was just a farm fest. Trophy rush was alright. Smash run was actually really fun. Makes the 3DS version worth it.

But there’s nothing wrong with barebones at all. If it was then how come you see so many people wanting break the targets and board the platforms back? I’m all for simplifying rather than just throwing out whacky ideas that stray from the platforming concept of smash.

 

[osby]

Can you please stop pointing out “Melee” players like we don’t all play Smash Bros.? Jesus Christ.

You just constantly say off handed things, “It would take years for Mee players to learn arcade sticks” and any other smash player it wouldn’t? I guess it would be crazy saying that I already play arcade stick in Street Fighter 3 and Tekken. Where are you getting this information? C’mon man.

And no one made Sakurai out all this content in the game, so please chill on this gratefulness thing. It’s not a free game. You still need a switch, the game, and an adapter and controller if you want that experience. I’m not grateful to him, I’m grateful to my job that lets me pay for all that.

I’m sorry if I’m coming across as rude but all this hate towards a specific game in the series is really whack and makes many of you come off as transparent skill wise. If you believe that Melee players are elitist and are clinging to a game because of an inability to adapt or keep up with the meta, of a simpler game following Brawl mind you, then I’m not sure where to assess your skills as gamers.

For people who have took the time to sign up for a dedicated forum for a specific video game series, y’all make it sound like playing video games is really hard. Is it because of all the esports bougeeness? I don’t know, but it’s crazy.

Please, sit down and play the game in question, try to get better, see if you enjoy getting better, then formulate an opinion. But don’t attack the other player because they have a preference. Don’t you think people have already played the games? Most of us want the game to survive, and Melee for some reason is doing that; something not even the Street Fighter series can even achieve by maintaining a strong competitive base for an over 15 year old installment. And it’s not because of the fans aimlessly favoring it. It wouldn’t be smart to invest thousands of dollars for venues to host a game because you just “like it”, it’s successful for a reason.

This isn’t saying Ultimate can’t share the same success but for some reason older Japanese games tend to have longevity, like Melee, MvC2, and Third Strike in some cases. Maybe it was because developers weren’t afraid of taking risks. Maybe that’s what needs to happen; throw all caution to the wind and go nuts with it.

Some people don't play video games to get better, they play to... you know, have fun.

Melee surviving so long is nice but if it's so immortal, why people are asking for a game like that, instead of keep playing it?

 

[Necro'lic]

Can you please stop pointing out “Melee” players like we don’t all play Smash Bros.? Jesus Christ.

You just constantly say off handed things, “It would take years for Mee players to learn arcade sticks” and any other smash player it wouldn’t? I guess it would be crazy saying that I already play arcade stick in Street Fighter 3 and Tekken. Where are you getting this information? C’mon man.

And no one made Sakurai out all this content in the game, so please chill on this gratefulness thing. It’s not a free game. You still need a switch, the game, and an adapter and controller if you want that experience. I’m not grateful to him, I’m grateful to my job that lets me pay for all that.

I’m sorry if I’m coming across as rude but all this hate towards a specific game in the series is really whack and makes many of you come off as transparent skill wise. If you believe that Melee players are elitist and are clinging to a game because of an inability to adapt or keep up with the meta, of a simpler game following Brawl mind you, then I’m not sure where to assess your skills as gamers.

For people who have took the time to sign up for a dedicated forum for a specific video game series, y’all make it sound like playing video games is really hard. Is it because of all the esports bougeeness? I don’t know, but it’s crazy.

Please, sit down and play the game in question, try to get better, see if you enjoy getting better, then formulate an opinion. But don’t attack the other player because they have a preference. Don’t you think people have already played the games? Most of us want the game to survive, and Melee for some reason is doing that; something not even the Street Fighter series can even achieve by maintaining a strong competitive base for an over 15 year old installment. And it’s not because of the fans aimlessly favoring it. It wouldn’t be smart to invest thousands of dollars for venues to host a game because you just “like it”, it’s successful for a reason.

This isn’t saying Ultimate can’t share the same success but for some reason older Japanese games tend to have longevity, like Melee, MvC2, and Third Strike in some cases. Maybe it was because developers weren’t afraid of taking risks. Maybe that’s what needs to happen; throw all caution to the wind and go nuts with it.

I agree with you calling out this bias against Melee here, but please stop trying to equate dislike of Melee with "well they don't like it because they are bad players, obviously. Just git gud and you'll then see how this game is obviously superior in every way. Everyone who doesn't like Melee is obviously mad cause bad, no other reason makes sense".

It makes you look more and more like the worst of the Melee community when I know you aren't actually like that. It also answers why he equates you as a "Melee" player rather than a "Smash Bros" player, because what you are doing right now in this comment is exuding the worst traits of an elitist gamer.

Just stop. Please.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

If you're in a pool and the lifeguard yells, "hey kids, stop running" you don't fire back "I'm a kid and I'm not running." Accept that he's talking about other kids and not ALL kids. Don't go looking for offense where none is meant.

Except when you aren’t clarifying who you are talking about, you are indeed talking about all kids. And when you attach negative connotations to the kids in question, it makes it infinitely easier for someone to react. Especially, if you are talking to kids through a filter that doesn’t translate emotion or tone very well, a la the internet.

Stop trying to cover for other people’s i statements. He knows what he’s saying, and if he wasn’t trying to offend anyone then he would willingly elaborate on what he is trying to say, just as YOU did when it wasn’t warranted. Or you could just as easily speak about smashers as a collective, as we are all playing the same franchise. Pointing people out is just stirring **** up.

There are no amount of superlatives you can use to excuse some dileberately pointing out a group of people.

That’s like someone saying:

I’m tired of you ******

But wait, he didn’t mean all ****** are bad, just the ones that are.

Wtf that just makes it worse.

Once again, please miss me with that.

 

[osby]

When people say "Melee fans", they generally mean people only enjoy Melee (and Project M). Other games don't really have this kind of big fan groups, most people just switch to the new games.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I agree with you calling out this bias against Melee here, but please stop trying to equate dislike of Melee with "well they don't like it because they are bad players, obviously. Just git gud and you'll then see how this game is obviously superior in every way. Everyone who doesn't like Melee is obviously mad cause bad, no other reason makes sense".

It makes you look more and more like the worst of the Melee community when I know you aren't actually like that. It also answers why he equates you as a "Melee" player rather than a "Smash Bros" player, because what you are doing right now in this comment is exuding the worst traits of an elitist gamer.

Just stop. Please.

No no no, don’t do that. I’m merely suggesting something reasonable, to play the game. How is that bad? Is there something inherently wrong with attempting to gain perspective through trial and error? Or would you rather people just hold on to their opinions and potentially dismiss themselves from something they can truly enjoy?

When I first played Brawl and competed, I enjoyed it for a brief period, then realized the direction the game was going towards, adhered to the opinions of the vocal majority and bandwaggoned with the people who talked smack about it. I kept playing Melee, but some time later I gave the game another shot, truly tried to understand the fundamentals of the game and began to enjoy it a lot more than I did before. That’s because I decided to formulate my own opinion, make friends in the community, shared tech, and genuinely had a great time, and I regret none of it.

I’m not perfect, and I openly admit to being a kind of a **** back in the day towards the game, but sooner then later realized that I enjoyed the game because it was smash, it was different, and the community is great. Don’t make it seem like trying to enjoy it is a bad thing lol.

And yes, I firmly stick by my opinion that if you blatantly tarnish players in a series because they decide to play a different one from you, and you have all of these negative opinions and beliefs about a player simply because you have a preference, then you’re trash. Because the skills acquired in fighting games and smash is transitive. I hardly find players acknowledging what made Melee great, and automatically attatch “Melee is great” with “tech” or “wave dash”. No, it’s what cumulatively occurs in the game that makes it what it is. Many players will disregard the opinion of someone who prefers the game and just assume we want “glitches” back, that players rely on having the tech barrier, but no one is talking about the external factors behind competing with players. Adapting to play styles, reading the opponent, player style counter picks , temperament, these are critical components to playing. I was just watching Daigo play with Sagat in street fighter 5, and one game he beat the opponent by using crazy combos and reads, and the next he just through out standing fierce kick and crouching heavy and took 90% of his health in neutral. It’s because the mental game and other external factors are important, no matter what game you are playing.

It’s ridiculous that people can get a pass spreading ill-thought ideas and negativity, and even more ridiculous that people are defending it. And as for you, perhaps instead of breaking down my temperament and my methods of arguing, try to understand what I’m saying, or genuinely try to find a flaw in what I’m saying, or back up what you are saying with experiences or data. I would appreciate that more than you would know.

When people say "Melee fans", they generally mean people only enjoy Melee (and Project M). Other games don't really have this kind of big fan groups, most people just switch to the new games.

Then to avoid confusion, don’t do it.

It’s the same when someone is saying “you people”. What exactly does that mean? It’s still grounds for offense. At the end of the day we’re all playing video games, so targeting others not only looks ridiculous, but it’s pointless, because it’s all smash. This is smash boards lol.

Yeah most people do move on, but most people don’t compete for that long either. Not that it’s the most important thing, but players have the choice to play whatever they want as long as they enjoy it. I shouldn’t forfeit playing Super Mario 64 just because Super Mario Odyssey is out, not should I enjoy it less. But I definitely will play the new installments of games because I love the franchise.

I’ve played Ultimate and know I’m going to love it because it smash. I’m personally interested in competitive longevity, but I’m going to enjoy it for everything it has to offer when I first get it.

So far it’s developers have been pretty good about accepting criticism of the game. I could honestly care less about it having a bunch of Melee tech and having things that will make it stand out as great on its own and giving players more freedom of control. That’s my main issue.

 

[Necro'lic]

No no no, don’t do that. I’m merely suggesting something reasonable, to play the game. How is that bad? Is there something inherently wrong with attempting to gain perspective through trial and error? Or would you rather people just hold on to their opinions and potentially dismiss themselves from something they can truly enjoy?

When I first played Brawl and competed, I enjoyed it for a brief period, then realized the direction the game was going towards, adhered to the opinions of the vocal majority and bandwaggoned with the people who talked smack about it. I kept playing Melee, but some time later I gave the game another shot, truly tried to understand the fundamentals of the game and began to enjoy it a lot more than I did before. That’s because I decided to formulate my own opinion, make friends in the community, shared tech, and genuinely had a great time, and I regret none of it.

I’m not perfect, and I openly admit to being a kind of a **** back in the day towards the game, but sooner then later realized that I enjoyed the game because it was smash, it was different, and the community is great. Don’t make it seem like trying to enjoy it is a bad thing lol.

And yes, I firmly stick by my opinion that if you blatantly tarnish players in a series because they decide to play a different one from you, and you have all of these negative opinions and beliefs about a player simply because you have a preference, then you’re trash. Because the skills acquired in fighting games and smash is transitive. I hardly find players acknowledging what made Melee great, and automatically attatch “Melee is great” with “tech” or “wave dash”. No, it’s what cumulatively occurs in the game that makes it what it is. Many players will disregard the opinion of someone who prefers the game and just assume we want “glitches” back, that players rely on having the tech barrier, but no one is talking about the external factors behind competing with players. Adapting to play styles, reading the opponent, player style counter picks , temperament, these are critical components to playing. I was just watching Daigo play with Sagat in street fighter 5, and one game he beat the opponent by using crazy combos and reads, and the next he just through out standing fierce kick and crouching heavy and took 90% of his health in neutral. It’s because the mental game and other external factors are important, no matter what game you are playing.

It’s ridiculous that people can get a pass spreading ill-thought ideas and negativity, and even more ridiculous that people are defending it. And as for you, perhaps instead of breaking down my temperament and my methods of arguing, try to understand what I’m saying, or genuinely try to find a flaw in what I’m saying, or back up what you are saying with experiences or data. I would appreciate that more than you would know.

The thing is that I agree with most of what you say in terms of overall thoughts on competitive fighting games. Especially stuff like this:

I hardly find players acknowledging what made Melee great, and automatically attatch “Melee is great” with “tech” or “wave dash”. No, it’s what cumulatively occurs in the game that makes it what it is. Many players will disregard the opinion of someone who prefers the game and just assume we want “glitches” back, that players rely on having the tech barrier, but no one is talking about the external factors behind competing with players. Adapting to play styles, reading the opponent, player style counter picks , temperament, these are critical components to playing. I was just watching Daigo play with Sagat in street fighter 5, and one game he beat the opponent by using crazy combos and reads, and the next he just through out standing fierce kick and crouching heavy and took 90% of his health in neutral. It’s because the mental game and other external factors are important, no matter what game you are playing.

This is why I like games like these. But again, until you get into minutiae about a game's mechanics, design, etc., I don't really have much problem with what you argue. The reason I'm seeming like the tone police in this particular case is because despite having these good arguments, you convey them in such a blatantly elitist manner that no one will end up listening to you anyway.

Riddle me this. I suck at competitive games, at least for the most part, yet I have tried to understand them to obsessive degrees in order to understand how games are designed and how they work from many experts on the subject, and have even, on a couple of occasions, worked directly with some developers to see the process firsthand. And yet, from what I've gathered from the way you seem to treat detractors of the Melee community, because I don't like X, Y, or Z in Melee, even if I give my arguments for it irrespective of the community or anything other than what is in the game, which I have tried to do throughout my discussions here in stuff like this, even despite all of that, because I suck at competitive games, my voice doesn't matter.

If I see something I disagree with, I will tell you, and I will argue against it, but I'm not going to try and insult you and belittle your statements over something as petty as how well someone does in a video game. Please give the same courtesy to me and others here.

And as for the rest of your comment about enjoying what you want and formulating your own opinion. I fully agree. But again, would you consider my opinion of certain aspects of Melee (and the others, don't forget I have a little bit to hate for the other Smash games too) invalid off the basis that I don't play at tournaments and don't plan to?

 

[Quillion]

Just gonna say it again because it bears repeating:

Hardcore Smash newheads want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Hardcore Melee fans want to keep the baby and the bathwater.

So how about we spend more time deciding what the baby is and what the bathwater is, huh?

 

[Oddball]

Just gonna say it again because it bears repeating:

Hardcore Smash newheads want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Hardcore Melee fans want to keep the baby and the bathwater.

So how about we spend more time deciding what the baby is and what the bathwater is, huh?

First, I'd like to define what "hardcore Smash newheads" are. How can somebody be hardcore for something new?

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

Can you please stop pointing out “Melee” players like we don’t all play Smash Bros.? Jesus Christ.

If I said Smash players, then that would be grouping in Smash 4 players as well.

You just constantly say off handed things, “It would take years for Mee players to learn arcade sticks” and any other smash player it wouldn’t? I guess it would be crazy saying that I already play arcade stick in Street Fighter 3 and Tekken. Where are you getting this information? C’mon man.

The fact that we've had the Smash Stick for about a year and it isn't revolutionizing the Smash scene. I guess saying Melee is a mishap on my part.

And no one made Sakurai out all this content in the game, so please chill on this gratefulness thing. It’s not a free game. You still need a switch, the game, and an adapter and controller if you want that experience. I’m not grateful to him, I’m grateful to my job that lets me pay for all that.

It sounds ungrateful when someone is gets you a gift and then you want something more because this one isn't how you want it.

I’m sorry if I’m coming across as rude but all this hate towards a specific game in the series is really whack and makes many of you come off as transparent skill wise. If you believe that Melee players are elitist and are clinging to a game because of an inability to adapt or keep up with the meta, of a simpler game following Brawl mind you, then I’m not sure where to assess your skills as gamers.

It isn't even about skill. It's a discussion about a game mode

For people who have took the time to sign up for a dedicated forum for a specific video game series, y’all make it sound like playing video games is really hard. Is it because of all the esports bougeeness? I don’t know, but it’s crazy.

Once again, I am only giving my thoughts on what Sakurai said. Sakurai said

It’s not to say that Street Fighter is failing [by more fully embracing competitive gaming] by any means, but personally, I think any games with command inputs are difficult. The creator side is trying to raise people who do that...it doesn’t beat a game where you press one button to create a special move. I think that’s really easy to pick up for a lot of people.

He feels that Melee isn't accessible enough for new players.

Please, sit down and play the game in question, try to get better, see if you enjoy getting better, then formulate an opinion. But don’t attack the other player because they have a preference. Don’t you think people have already played the games? Most of us want the game to survive, and Melee for some reason is doing that; something not even the Street Fighter series can even achieve by maintaining a strong competitive base for an over 15 year old installment. And it’s not because of the fans aimlessly favoring it. It wouldn’t be smart to invest thousands of dollars for venues to host a game because you just “like it”, it’s successful for a reason.

Ultimate is going to survive. Ultimate doesn't need a Melee mode to live in a competitive scene.

 

[Quillion]

First, I'd like to define what "hardcore Smash newheads" are. How can somebody be hardcore for something new?

When I talk about "Smash newheads", I mean those that want to move on from Melee and have stuck with Brawl, then Smash 4, and now are moving to Ultimate.

They're the ones that aggressively think that Melee's mechanics and concepts, good and bad, should never be retained in any measure.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

It's not that Melee's mechanics and concepts aren't bad but they could definitely afford to be more accessible. I like the DAD and such but wavedashing and such isn't all too appealing to me.

 

[Oddball]

When I talk about "Smash newheads", I mean those that want to move on from Melee and have stuck with Brawl, then Smash 4, and now are moving to Ultimate.

They're the ones that aggressively think that Melee's mechanics and concepts, good and bad, should never be retained in any measure.

I'm sorry. I'm not getting how anyone can be a hardcore fan of moving on to the next thing. I'm pretty sure that's the opposite of being hardcore.

And NOBODY not a single person anywhere thinks that melee's mechanics shouldn't be retained in any measure because EVERYGAME after Melee has retained some of their aspects in one measure or another. It's just that people don't want the mechanics and concepts to be forced into being almost exactly what they were back then.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I'm sorry. I'm not getting how anyone can be a hardcore fan of moving on to the next thing. I'm pretty sure that's the opposite of being hardcore.

And NOBODY not a single person anywhere thinks that melee's mechanics shouldn't be retained in any measure because EVERYGAME after Melee has retained some of their aspects in one measure or another. It's just that people don't want the mechanics and concepts to be forced into being almost exactly what they were back then.

Most people definitely don’t want that, but it’s understandable why, as some see melee as a blue print to a successful game. while there are some mechanics that it could borrow from to encourage competitive play, such as good DI and adequate hitstun, it should be great within its own engine.

Personally, I just want the ledge timer to go away. If I grab the ledge I want the option to instantly let go, and making vulnerability on edge more adequate to make edge guarding effective and encouraged.

 

[Quillion]

I'm sorry. I'm not getting how anyone can be a hardcore fan of moving on to the next thing. I'm pretty sure that's the opposite of being hardcore.

Oh, trust me: they are fiercely dedicated to moving on.

It may or may not be in response to hardcore Melee fans' aggressiveness, but it happens.

And NOBODY not a single person anywhere thinks that melee's mechanics shouldn't be retained in any measure because EVERYGAME after Melee has retained some of their aspects in one measure or another. It's just that people don't want the mechanics and concepts to be forced into being almost exactly what they were back then.

Then I'll give you kudos to not going entirely to that extreme. And I completely understand people not wanting Melee's nigh-useless airdodge back in Smash or unnecessary L-Canceling when we have low landing lag.

But I don't understand how some can't fathom the idea of wavedashing becoming its own dedicated mechanic. Not an emergent property of airdodging, but becoming a real feature.

 

[zabimaru1000]

I think people asking for a melee mode need to understand something like that would be an impossible task for sakurai to do.

Generally as someone that likes Melee but also , I would like the main game for Ultimate to at least meet the following competitive criteria. Doesn't need exactly bring back Melee mechanics. Not sure if some people here agree:

- fast movement in the ground and air (subject to each character of course, but air time would serve to benefit spectators if air mobility is faster)
- less use of shielding in neutral (players just opting to run up shield because shield is too good), and more of neutral being move around the stage and each other.
- Rewarding punish game and rewarding combos when you land a hit and not just a copy/paste grab combo. I want it to feel gratifying when I land a hit. Previous games too me felt like, "oh I landed two or 3 consecutive hits, that's great. Now the opponent is already free to act so I have to read them to get another hit in and if I don't land that one read out of many options, then I have to reset back to neutral." Also felt like Bayonetta broke that very rule when she was released while leaving everyone else limited.
- Recovery game felt way too lax in Smash 4 and overpowered the edgeguard game. I feel like this is a combo of hitstun canceling, lack of viable movement options + moves to intercept people under the ledge, infinite air dodge, huge ledge snap, and forgiving recoveries (Villager, Bayo, Rosalina, fox, etc). I think people just didn't want to risk going out that much anymore and would rather stay on stage most of the time to read their ledge option instead.

overall is it too much to ask for more fast paced, offensive based play and less defensive play?

 

[Oddball]

But I don't understand how some can't fathom the idea of wavedashing becoming its own dedicated mechanic. Not an emergent property of airdodging, but becoming a real feature.

Disregarding any elements of complexity or balance ... I just think it looks really stupid having everybody sliding around like they're on ice all the time.

Just looking at it people can tell it's not supposed to work like it does and that makes the game look glitchy and unpolished.

 

[Quillion]

Also felt like Bayonetta broke that very rule when she was released while leaving everyone else limited.

Disregarding any elements of complexity or balance ... I just think it looks really stupid having everybody sliding around like they're on ice all the time.

Just looking at it people can tell it's not supposed to work like it does and that makes the game look glitchy and unpolished.

And this is why I want a universal air dash + wavedash mechanic so that:
A) EVERYONE gets ladder combos, not just Bayonetta.
B) It increases the depth of an old concept, makes it easier to use, and gives it its own animation (preferably bodily lunging forward a la Mega Man X).

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

N

I played all the Smash games (excluding Ultimate), both casually, and (semi)-competitively, but I have to disagree about Melee being only for competitive play.
With my friends, we played both Brawl and 4 for fun, but at the end we returned to Melee, even for casual play.
The physics in that game are more natural, and especially explosions, they just work better.
You are fighting regularly, with items on: a Bob-omb appears and everything explodes. When this happens in the newer Smash games, it's just frustrating, while in Melee, it makes me laugh, because it's faster, more unexpected, and the effect is overall more hilarious (also because the voices of some characters are more "stupid").
Then, while you are fighting, occasionally a Goomba or a Re-Dead will appear from a box or a barrel, that's hilarious too, way more fun than summoning an assist trophy.
There are a lot of funny situations in Melee that are removed or toned down in the newer Smash games, that's why I think that Melee does better even the casual part... aside of the amount of content and recent games representations, that's inferior for obvious reasons.

Yes to all of this.

Yes but adjusting physical properties would lead to changes in characters' move's attributes. Adding things like more hit stun, character speed, fall speed, etc changes how a character plays dramatically, which would mean every character would need to be balanced a second time to include melee mode. That's my point. Some characters wouldn't translate well to melee mechanics if they weren't touched up. It's not as simple as tweaking physics and calling it a day. This is a lot more complex than special smash mode where we're making everyone metal or wearing the bunny hood. I get you aren't asking for a melee recreation but to do what you want, I can't imagine it would be a quick and easy feat.

But what I'm suggesting was already almost completely attainable in smash4's existing options

I completely agree with E Eternal phoenix Fire when it comes to gaming. Games should be challenging. Games being challenging is what makes them replayable. Should Mario just be a bunch of flat stages everyone can walk through with their eyes closd? Are ppl gona complain when a zelda boss is to hard? Comon ppl. Gtfgood

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Disregarding any elements of complexity or balance ... I just think it looks really stupid having everybody sliding around like they're on ice all the time.

Just looking at it people can tell it's not supposed to work like it does and that makes the game look glitchy and unpolished.

So that’s the issue? If it’s merely aesthetics, then having an individual animation for it may be a good solution.

Personally I think it looks fine, and also kind of cool because most of the time you would want to act out of a wave dash, so if you are sliding backwards doing Marth’s Shield breaker it looks like something akin to an anime like attack. But, to each their own.

Personally, I love wavelanding due to it looking and feeling so smooth.

 

[LaughingLefou]

So don't. You make it sound like Melee wasn't fun for casuals. Nothing is stopping casuals from playing however they want.

Ya but I'm a casual, and I prefer melee and project m. Theyre just better games. Making the game slower for ppl that suck makes no sense. People that suck, play against other ppl that suck. It's al relative

I played all the Smash games (excluding Ultimate), both casually, and (semi)-competitively, but I have to disagree about Melee being only for competitive play.
With my friends, we played both Brawl and 4 for fun, but at the end we returned to Melee, even for casual play.
The physics in that game are more natural, and especially explosions, they just work better.
You are fighting regularly, with items on: a Bob-omb appears and everything explodes. When this happens in the newer Smash games, it's just frustrating, while in Melee, it makes me laugh, because it's faster, more unexpected, and the effect is overall more hilarious (also because the voices of some characters are more "stupid").
Then, while you are fighting, occasionally a Goomba or a Re-Dead will appear from a box or a barrel, that's hilarious too, way more fun than summoning an assist trophy.
There are a lot of funny situations in Melee that are removed or toned down in the newer Smash games, that's why I think that Melee does better even the casual part... aside of the amount of content and recent games representations, that's inferior for obvious reasons.

So much this. Melee casual content really feels barebones.

Guys, guys, the entire point of my comment was simply to say that not all Casuals are competitives just waiting to happen. Some of us don't want to go beyond because we find nothing satisfying about the competitive scene. That was all.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Guys, guys, the entire point of my comment was simply to say that not all Casuals are competitives just waiting to happen. Some of us don't want to go beyond because we find nothing satisfying about the competitive scene. That was all.

Except, none of you are casual players.

Doing something “casually” is to do so on a whim, or do act nonrecrrationally. If you are so invested into something that you decide to come to a dedicated forum and express your opinion on something on the behalf of the competitive, or “hardcore” community, you aren’t a casual player.

Many players in the smash bros community use the term ‘casual’ to mascaraid as someone who doesn’t care much about the game in question, when the fact of the matter is they do, but aren’t willing to admit that, rather that be due to poor performance when competing, or just desire that a game cator to their needs instead of putting forth the effort to accel in the game, it’s kind of like how “nice guys” in dating, aren’t really nice at all. If I’m going to dress casually, I’m not going to go to a fashion forum to figure out where to cop some Marc Jacobs shorts and balenciaga shoes to go outside, that’s extreme. I’ll just put on whatever I have laying around the house.

I know this issue truly wasn’t warranted to bring up, but it does personally irk me a bit. And as far as what potential “casual” players are waiting for, why not start now? Go to a local tournament or Wi-Fi event and start practicing. Play the best players in your neighborhood and make yourself known. Hit the ground running.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Time to drop the semantics. It's clear what LaughingLoufou means(that a lot of the people he is speaking for does not want to go competitive). There is nothing to read beyond that and trying to force a definition as if it has a single bearing on this conversation is pointless. It doesn't matter. Move on and actually reply to the actual argument being made(and it isn't some silly definition).

 

[Necro'lic]

Except, none of you are casual players.

Doing something “casually” is to do so on a whim, or do act nonrecrrationally. If you are so invested into something that you decide to come to a dedicated forum and express your opinion on something on the behalf of the competitive, or “hardcore” community, you aren’t a casual player.

Many players in the smash bros community use the term ‘casual’ to mascaraid as someone who doesn’t care much about the game in question, when the fact of the matter is they do, but aren’t willing to admit that, rather that be due to poor performance when competing, or just desire that a game cator to their needs instead of putting forth the effort to accel in the game, it’s kind of like how “nice guys” in dating, aren’t really nice at all. If I’m going to dress casually, I’m not going to go to a fashion forum to figure out where to cop some Marc Jacobs shorts and balenciaga shoes to go outside, that’s extreme. I’ll just put on whatever I have laying around the house.

I know this issue truly wasn’t warranted to bring up, but it does personally irk me a bit. And as far as what potential “casual” players are waiting for, why not start now? Go to a local tournament or Wi-Fi event and start practicing. Play the best players in your neighborhood and make yourself known. Hit the ground running.

You have a very binary view of what "casual" players are. I highly doubt either you don't care about the game, or you care enough to dedicate much of your time to it. Is there really no middle ground here?

 

[aarchak]

Except, none of you are casual players.

Doing something “casually” is to do so on a whim, or do act nonrecrrationally. If you are so invested into something that you decide to come to a dedicated forum and express your opinion on something on the behalf of the competitive, or “hardcore” community, you aren’t a casual player.

Many players in the smash bros community use the term ‘casual’ to mascaraid as someone who doesn’t care much about the game in question, when the fact of the matter is they do, but aren’t willing to admit that, rather that be due to poor performance when competing, or just desire that a game cator to their needs instead of putting forth the effort to accel in the game, it’s kind of like how “nice guys” in dating, aren’t really nice at all. If I’m going to dress casually, I’m not going to go to a fashion forum to figure out where to cop some Marc Jacobs shorts and balenciaga shoes to go outside, that’s extreme. I’ll just put on whatever I have laying around the house.

I know this issue truly wasn’t warranted to bring up, but it does personally irk me a bit. And as far as what potential “casual” players are waiting for, why not start now? Go to a local tournament or Wi-Fi event and start practicing. Play the best players in your neighborhood and make yourself known. Hit the ground running.

You don't decide what a casual or hardcore player is, there isn't even a dichotomy between 2 groups in actuality. I would consider myself more casual, but that's because I don't compete at all, and I have little interest in doing so right now. I came to this site because I am a fan of the series, not because I want to become a professional Smash player. There are people who are invested in the series without ever wanting to be a hardcore player. I don't want another Melee because it has a huge execution barrier, and I just want to be able to play the game with my friends without going hardcore.

In short, I care about this series, but I don't spend 3 hours a day practicing combos and matchups. I'm not a fan of Melee because it takes so much just to play it at a high enough level to enjoy its depth, and I want an accessible yet deep game.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

You don't decide what a casual or hardcore player is, there isn't even a dichotomy between 2 groups in actuality. I would consider myself more casual, but that's because I don't compete at all, and I have little interest in doing so right now. I came to this site because I am a fan of the series, not because I want to become a professional Smash player. There are people who are invested in the series without ever wanting to be a hardcore player. I don't want another Melee because it has a huge execution barrier, and I just want to be able to play the game with my friends without going hardcore.

In short, I care about this series, but I don't spend 3 hours a day practicing combos and matchups. I'm not a fan of Melee because it takes so much just to play it at a high enough level to enjoy its depth, and I want an accessible yet deep game.

You still aren’t a casual player. If you’re dedicated to the series beyond just playing the game on the off chance that it’s available to play, then you aren’t doing it casually. I’m not dictating anything, logic is.

Your skill doesn’t dictate whether or not you casually enjoy the game, your frequency of play, level of interest, and how much you are invested, does.

And right now you are proving my point, stating that you don’t want another Melee because of X, Y, and Z. But you play casually, so why do execution barriers matter?

Yeah. You aren’t a casual player. You’re being ambiguous.

You have a very binary view of what "casual" players are. I highly doubt either you don't care about the game, or you care enough to dedicate much of your time to it. Is there really no middle ground here?

I never said I didn’t care; I do, difference is I’m not going to hide behind terminology to establish my stance and just let my words do the talking. I’m just approaching the bs for what it is. I would have never signed up for these forums if I didn’t care about smash bros. in the least beyond occasionally playing with my friends. I came here to discuss future installments and more so to improve at the game, because I care. Now, you have players saying they are casual when that’s far from the truth, they aren’t even by definition using the term correctly.

Excuse me if I appear to be rude to others; again, not intentional, but there’s been a steady incline of nonsense that people simply acknowledge that I personally can’t stand for, especially when those who speak of it more often then not have nothing positive to contribute or don’t make an attempt to understand each others arguments, rather resort to sweeping generalizations and memes to do the talking for them. But as soon as someone hits them with that real they change tune real quick.

All of this is off topic, though. I’m more interested in what I’m what Quillion said earlier in establishing a middle ground and deciphering what we want as a community, and what having another “Melee” truly entails.

If we can’t do that, then we are merely arguing in circles and I refuse to do that if no one is contributing to the conversation at hand.

 

[aarchak]

You still aren’t a casual player. If you’re dedicated to the series beyond just playing the game on the off chance that it’s available to play, then you aren’t doing it casually. I’m not dictating anything, logic is.

Your skill doesn’t dictate whether or not you casually enjoy the game, your frequency of play, level of interest, and how much you are invested, does.

And right now you are proving my point, stating that you don’t want another Melee because of X, Y, and Z. But you play casually, so why do execution barriers matter?

Yeah. You aren’t a casual player. You’re being ambiguous.

So, according to your definiton, just because I have a bit of investment in the series, I'm not a casual? Then what am I, a hardcore player? Definitely not. Investment is a spectrum. There are people who play this game for a living on one side and people who just played once or twice at the other side, and there are all sorts of people in the middle. I don't just mash buttons when I play, I do care for knowing what I can do with a character, being able to dive deep enough into the game's depth that I can enjoy the game on a deeper level than just run up and smash attack. Hell, I picked up Shulk, one of Smash 4's most technical characters. But I don't care for MALLC or whatever acronyms the community comes up with for his tech, I just love Xenoblade and want to play as my favorite characters, which is why I eventually picked up Cloud.

I'm not being ambiguous, I just fall into a place in the casual/hardcore spectrum that doesn't really fit the definition of either side.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

So, according to your definiton, just because I have a bit of investment in the series, I'm not a casual? Then what am I, a hardcore player? Definitely not. Investment is a spectrum. There are people who play this game for a living on one side and people who just played once or twice at the other side, and there are all sorts of people in the middle. I don't just mash buttons when I play, I do care for knowing what I can do with a character, being able to dive deep enough into the game's depth that I can enjoy the game on a deeper level than just run up and smash attack. Hell, I picked up Shulk, one of Smash 4's most technical characters. But I don't care for MALLC or whatever acronyms the community comes up with for his tech, I just love Xenoblade and want to play as my favorite characters, which is why I eventually picked up Cloud.

I'm not being ambiguous, I just fall into a place in the casual/hardcore spectrum that doesn't really fit the definition of either side.

How about you just say you’re invested?

I’m not saying there is anything wrong with being a casual player, but being this much into the game implies the contrary.

It’s just a gripe of mine at the end of the day, but I have seen people use the term to spread their opinion because they repeatedly get bopped in tournament and believe that if there changes in the game are taylored to their skill level they will succeed, but then they don’t, and once again fade into obscurity.

This doesn’t apply to you obviously. I just wanted there to be some distinction .

 

[aarchak]

How about you just say you’re invested?

I’m not saying there is anything wrong with being a casual player, but being this much into the game implies the contrary.

It’s just a gripe of mine at the end of the day, but I have seen people use the term to spread their opinion because they repeatedly get bopped in tournament and believe that if there changes in the game are taylored to their skill level they will succeed, but then they don’t, and once again fade into obscurity.

This doesn’t apply to you obviously. I just wanted there to be some distinction .

All right, sure, I'm invested, that works, I just am not competitive.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Drop the semantics discussion or infractions will come out. It doesn't matter who started it. It ends. Now. If this continues, this thread will be shut down due to being severely off-topic.

You have been warned.

 

[WaxPython]

I don't see the point, I love Melee but I want a new game not just Melee V2. Melee lovers will just go play Melee, nothing wrong with that. No need for a gamemode that would only be popular amongst the hardcore, smash ultimate needs its own distinct identity.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I don't see the point, I love Melee but I want a new game not just Melee V2. Melee lovers will just go play Melee, nothing wrong with that. No need for a gamemode that would only be popular amongst the hardcore, smash ultimate needs its own distinct identity.

I think one thing to remember is some people want to use those other characters in Melee-like settings. So just playing Melee wouldn't really give them the same thing.

But yeah, I don't think we'll get a Melee V2 either way. Just like I don't think we'll ever get a Melee HD(unless there's a really good reason for it, like the GameCube Controllers not working the way they want 'em too on the Switch, making a VC-style release unfeasible. Which makes it the better option of the two. But without new content, of course, it's kind of pointless).

 

[Deus]

So, the largest draw with Melee for me was the speed and freedom of movement. Dash dancing, wave dashing, as well as DI. I much prefer staying in hitstun and relying on DI to get out of combos and obviously the opposite for my enemy. From what I've seen and read it seems like movement options are a pretty big part of Ultimate, so I love that. The whole KB and combo mechanics seem really weird from what I've seen and it's something I cant really make an opinion on until I can try it out.

So, thing I never really understood was Melee not being "accessible". I get that the advanced techniques are rough to get remotely comfortable with, but if you don't have any want to play competitively then what difference does it make? I played Melee like an entire year before I heard about wavedashing and it didn't stop it from being really fun. I've also been extremely confused about the game being serious competitive as a bad thing. Isn't the point of the game that you can play how you want? You want items and crazy stages to play with three other friends? Sure thing. But I'm supposed to feel like I'm a horrible person for wanting a fast paced game to revolve around serious competition especially when that can easily be changed to more party based with the options they have.

I was always baffled by Sakurai not liking how competitive Melee was. You do realize it's a game based around beating other people, right?

And I too will not say Melee was perfect by any means, but it has been the most fun for me by far and it was such a buzzkill when they shutdown Project:M, that's when I did really start to feel resentment for the direction of the series since they wouldn't even let us have our own little Melee with a larger roster.

 

[Flowen231]

I’m sorry, but that’s entirely incorrect. I play both games, and transition very well. The buffer window won’t throw a player off because the frames are off key, rather, all you inputs will just occur faster. There was a buffer window in project M, and in Melee you can buffer double stick DI and techs. Playing Melee has made playing all the following games in the series infinitely easier. Your reaction speed isn’t going to change because of a buffer window. It would only be a problem if you have played neither game enough to retain muscle memory.

Which is why I mentioned that player dexterity is a factor in that bit. Notice how I never once said that i was personally bothered by the difference ;p.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

If SLHG is literally the only thing you want, AND you don't really use a lot of tech (as you're a self-admitted casual), AND you feel that HG is already balanced...

...then just turn on High Gravity in Ultimate. Low landing lag is already a universal buff, so the only thing standing between you and playing as the 70 or so characters in a combo-heavy environment is just turning on High Gravity.

I've mentioned several times the issue with this though. High Gravity completely messes up a lot of characters' jumps (especially up b's). There would need to be another toggle to increase vertical movement to balance for the gravity increase. Also, the gravity option would benefit from a slider toggle cause it might be a bit too much gravity by default. And then there's the issue of attack endlag which either needs to be decreased, or hitstun needs to be increased as we talked about, which can also have a slider toggle.

Those 3 slider toggles would do the trick I think.

 

[Necro'lic]

I've mentioned several times the issue with this though. High Gravity completely messes up a lot of characters' jumps (especially up b's).

Wait, didn't you say you wanted worse recoveries?

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Some people don't play video games to get better, they play to... you know, have fun.

Melee surviving so long is nice but if it's so immortal, why people are asking for a game like that, instead of keep playing it?

Umm challenges are.. fun. That's the point of a video game - challenges. If it's not challenging, what are you even doing?

And Ppl want melee-like gameplay with more characters.

Wait, didn't you say you wanted worse recoveries?

No sir, I've never said that. Higher gravity means less floatyness, that doesn't mean worse recoveries.

 

[Polan]

there's like a million melee clones out there. go play one of those and stop trying to shove melee where it doesn't fit.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

there's like a million melee clones out there. go play one of those and stop trying to shove melee where it doesn't fit.

For the love of god. What don't you people understand? We want to play a game with melees pacing with the ultimate roster.

I have a hilarious comment I'm going to begrudgingly omit right now to avoid any flaming accusations.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

I honestly believe that Ultimate will eventually get a Project M style mod but by the time it happens, there might be another Smash game in development. In that case, it'll die out like Project M did. Sakurai isn't gonna make another Melee game and I doubt Nintendo would want one either. I think the best option is to get the community to do it.

orwaitformeleehd