Melee Match-Up Chart (NTSC) [Update 008 - 09.09.28]

[pockyD]

The values are based upon the basis that

a) If two players equal in skill were to play 10 matches, this is how many matches each player would win.
b) 5-5 means that they will win an equal amount of matches, and the matchup is relatively even.

So what you're saying is that 55-45 means that if they were to play 100 matches, one player would win 55 and the other would win 45

how can this possibly be close to accurate

and how can a 9-1 or even 8-2 matchup exist in this context? what keeps them from being 10-0s? and if there IS such a thing that keeps them from being 10-0s (which I doubt), how can a 10-0 exist?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Without bringing players into this, if the matchup had any advantage the games should be 10-0 to the person with advantage.

If a Marth beat a Sheik, its because Marth played better. If they play at exactly the same level, by definition, then the person who has advantage should win every time.

 

[pockyD]

well part of that is another shortcoming of the system, where the ruleset is not defined as part of the formula either

for example, if the stage is random, it's easy to see why a matchup might theoretically appear as 4-2

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I think they mean odds of you wining which doesn't scents it's an easy or hard match basically.

But I,m Ok with what ever because the matches ups for ice climber and pichu are duh match-ups. Same goes for most people duh sheik wins all matches or is even(wtf). Duh marth ***** everyone below and like one or two are even. but if marth ***** them when they are equal in skill does this mean some idoit can hold their own agaist someone a fair amount better? If so how can you truly say someone is better? Dittos don't work. So yeah wtf. A fair amount is wrong same same for the views on charters who most play as.

But heck I,m me so yeah and stuff. But I argee with the brawler guy have the boards argee on stuff then put it up, it would be a lot more legit.

 

[Divinokage]

Why do people forget about PC's Peach?

Peach is his 3rd best character more than likely.

PC>Vwins. PC deserves the title. ROM. nuff said.

No he doesn't if that were true then PC would of gone all Peach at one tournament which he doesnt do. Vwins goes all Peach.

 

[1048576]

I honestly just consider it to be completely relative.

The numbers mean nothing except that say Pichu Marth is more lopsided than Pichu Jiggs. Means nothing in terms of matches or stocks, because if players are even the better character wins 100% of the time, regardless of the degree to which one character is better.

We honestly could just rank all 325 possible matchups, but that's wayyy more tedious than the system we have now.

 

[pockyD]

Peach is his 3rd best character more than likely.

No he doesn't if that were true then PC would of gone all Peach at one tournament

how does that follow?

 

[Dorsey]

It's hard to judge where pc's peach is at in comparison. Yes, it owns, but for obvious reasons it's difficult to say. I just couldn't believe virusbluetroll or whoever left out people like vidjo and vwins...

 

[Sasha]

No he doesn't if that were true then PC would of gone all Peach at one tournament which he doesnt do. Vwins goes all Peach.

Hey guys! I went all Mewtwo at a tournament the other day! That makes me the best Mewtwo in the world right? Better than Taj right because Taj uses Marth a lot right?

I see no logic in your statement.

 

[BunBun]

This method really sucks. The way the brawl boards are doing it is so much better. Rather then having 1 thread for every character and having only a few people inputting at certain times, they have match-up discussions in their own character specific forums meaning that every match-up will be close to the actual ratio because people who actually play the character is inputting. I am sure most of you are aware of that, but I just honestly cannot see this match-up chart being accurate even if the game has been out for as long as time itself. I'd also like to agree with PockyD's comment (surprise surprise I know).

We have this too. Each (almost) character board has it's own matchup thread. The idea behind this chart was to compile everything from those boards and then take broader input

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

well part of that is another shortcoming of the system, where the ruleset is not defined as part of the formula either

for example, if the stage is random, it's easy to see why a matchup might theoretically appear as 4-2

Are you trying to say that we take account for the fact that stages in a real set are chosen the majority of the time, and that some matchups (from a tournament perspective) have a strategy for winning a set that isnt represented when you take it out of context. If so, i agree. Take peach and puff, they have really good counterpick stages and do better than the chart suggests in sets because they only have to win on 1 neutral while a marth has to win on 3.

I always thought the 100 point system was essentially an easier way of explaining how much better than the other player you would have to play to win set. For example, 60-40 sheik vs marth. People have an idea in their head about how hard that is. Next time someone says a match-up is 60-40 you think to the sheik vs marth match-up, and you evaluate them relative to each other. The match-up chart is relative to itself. To say pichu vs fox is 5-95 means its just REALLY hard and pichu has to play a LOT better than fox to win (tbh though, i think that 15-85 is the lowest match-up this game actually has).

Before people throw in tournament results I want to say that "skill" doesn't necessarily transfer from match-up to match-up, as a player. Some players just know certain match-ups a lot better than others. Just because one top level player loses against a certain character a lot, it does not mean that the match-up is bad, nor does one top level player winning in a certain match-up often mean its good. Players lose by being out-smarted. Ken was #1 in the world when sheik was the most common tournament character.

 

[joeplicate]

aw man, virus got banned. He really had some valuable input

hahahahahhahaha




isn't pc planning on going to rom2 and/or pound 4? could you call him "retired" even?

plus retired is a really lame term when it comes to playing smash, the bottom line is the old players, even if they're "retired," still have loads more experience than newer, more technical players close to them

also it takes the next batch of players like a year to catch up (see jman and chu), even when they are retired

 

[x After Dawn x]

PC was known for switching it up. Example, he went all Falcon at one tourney (at least in an entire set against M2K).

But mostly, he went Peach for the matchups. Example, he knew Shiz would wreck his spacies at RoM so he went Peach. And against Mango sometimes, he probably felt his spacies were getting punished too hard and they couldn't handle some of the stages, so he went Peach (I distinctly remember a match of his Peach on Brinstar).

PC's Fox > his Falco > his Peach

 

[Virusbluemage]

PC was known for switching it up. Example, he went all Falcon at one tourney (at least in an entire set against M2K).

But mostly, he went Peach for the matchups. Example, he knew Shiz would wreck his spacies at RoM so he went Peach. And against Mango sometimes, he probably felt his spacies were getting punished too hard and they couldn't handle some of the stages, so he went Peach (I distinctly remember a match of his Peach on Brinstar).

PC's Fox > his Falco > his Peach

Nah, PC had a much better Falco than Fox. The problem is that after Pound 3 he simply stopped using Falco. Maybe he felt he didn't want to main a character if he's not the best at it(Shiz may have a better Falco); PC reallt screwed homself over by dropping Falco though. His Fox never showed any improvement and he never stood a chance against Mew2king once he only used Fox. And I think even with Fox PC could have taken Shiz' Falco. Hopefully they'll have a rematch at Rom2.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Nah, PC had a much better Falco than Fox. The problem is that after Pound 3 he simply stopped using Falco. Maybe he felt he didn't want to main a character if he's not the best at it(Shiz may have a better Falco); PC reallt screwed homself over by dropping Falco though. His Fox never showed any improvement and he never stood a chance against Mew2king once he only used Fox. And I think even with Fox PC could have taken Shiz' Falco. Hopefully they'll have a rematch at Rom2.

Wow, you really have no clue what you're talking about...

 

[Virusbluemage]

Wow, you really have no clue what you're talking about...

Brilliant Argument.

Also I'd like to point out that Shiz is grossly overrated because he placed 3rd at rom. He had one great performacne and everyone thinks he is amazing. He obviously wasn't able to repeat that performance at Genesis and he won't be able to do so at rom2 or Pound 4 either. I have nothing against him but 3rd best in the country is ridiculous, Shiz can't even win tournies in his own state anymore(he got 3rd at the last Florida tourney)

Edit: I hope the mods don't consider this spam. If so then please PM me and I'll change this post immediately

 

[Mike G]

....here we go again.

 

[Virusbluemage]

....here we go again.

Ok I am not trying to create an argument here. I'm just trying to illustrate that Shiz is not a better player than PC and therefore people sholdn't think that he would have wrecked PC's spacies. I'm allowed to defend other players right?

 

[wool]

Shiz *****.
End of story.
Can we get on with the matchups?

 

[Divinokage]

Brilliant Argument.

Also I'd like to point out that Shiz is grossly overrated because he placed 3rd at rom. He had one great performacne and everyone thinks he is amazing. He obviously wasn't able to repeat that performance at Genesis and he won't be able to do so at rom2 or Pound 4 either. I have nothing against him but 3rd best in the country is ridiculous, Shiz can't even win tournies in his own state anymore(he got 3rd at the last Florida tourney)

Edit: I hope the mods don't consider this spam. If so then please PM me and I'll change this post immediately

Nah, PC had a much better Falco than Fox. The problem is that after Pound 3 he simply stopped using Falco. Maybe he felt he didn't want to main a character if he's not the best at it(Shiz may have a better Falco); PC reallt screwed homself over by dropping Falco though. His Fox never showed any improvement and he never stood a chance against Mew2king once he only used Fox. And I think even with Fox PC could have taken Shiz' Falco. Hopefully they'll have a rematch at Rom2.

Wow shut the **** up already. You have no respect for the players and you should worry about yourself more then the players that will always do better than you.

 

[Europhoria]

You're all morons. People like to use different characters for different scenarios. He went Peach because he thought he would do better in that situation with her. It doesn't make his Peach better then his Fox, and him going Fox on Kage instead of Peach doesn't make his Peach better then his Fox >_>

I remember at Mass Madness PC telling me that Shiz wrecked his spacies and he hated fighting technical spacies with his own, he was probably just more confident and comfortable with Peach against the Falco. I dunno if he still goes Peach against Samus or if he's using someone else for it now, but same thing there.

Some players are better at some match ups. The chart is harder to look at because when you try to evaluate a match up it could be like "well X player is bad against Sheik with Fox and he got *****..... Well Y player ***** that Sheik with Fox". The chart involves theory crafting taking what would be an optimal play style for a match up and seeing what the other character can do (if anything) to counter it and win.

Like the Ice Climbers can do blah blah to Fox (chain throws, combos, beating ground approaches with b-airs or whatever, making reads), but if Fox chooses to ban FD and then play super platform campy and safe and chip away at the ICs very slowly with shine until he's fighting a single climber the IC player should have kleenex to wipe all his tears away. People assume that the ICs can use "mindgames" and "make reads or trick fox" into b-airs or stuff but don't consider that Fox can also think and trick the ICs while already playing from the advantageous position. I can't think of anything they have that would be able to fight that kind of play style.

When people see Chu beating mediocre Foxes playing like that it has more to do with Chu just being hella good and experienced compared to the Fox player. The Fox players on Chu's level that are just as comfortable vs the ICs as he is vs them really gay his character hard it seems Try to look at it from a theory craft perspective for the Fox will make just as many correct reads/trick the IC just as many times as it will happen the other way around and not Chu outreading/outplaying the other.

(kinda covering 2 thoughts at once here... including the IC match up, end ramble)

 

[TheManaLord]

matchups are played more than chars these days

there should be restricted char tier lists bc its basically a team set not even 1v1 the way smash is played

1 char only sbo

 

[Europhoria]

Indeed. Do you wanna drive us to ROM again if we can't find another way? Hopefully no GPS failure

 

[unknown522]

You're all morons. People like to use different characters for different scenarios. He went Peach because he thought he would do better in that situation with her. It doesn't make his Peach better then his Fox, and him going Fox on Kage instead of Peach doesn't make his Peach better then his Fox >_>

I remember at Mass Madness PC telling me that Shiz wrecked his spacies and he hated fighting technical spacies with his own, he was probably just more confident and comfortable with Peach against the Falco. I dunno if he still goes Peach against Samus or if he's using someone else for it now, but same thing there.

Some players are better at some match ups. The chart is harder to look at because when you try to evaluate a match up it could be like "well X player is bad against Sheik with Fox and he got *****..... Well Y player ***** that Sheik with Fox". The chart involves theory crafting taking what would be an optimal play style for a match up and seeing what the other character can do (if anything) to counter it and win.

Like the Ice Climbers can do blah blah to Fox (chain throws, combos, beating ground approaches with b-airs or whatever, making reads), but if Fox chooses to ban FD and then play super platform campy and safe and chip away at the ICs very slowly with shine until he's fighting a single climber the IC player should have kleenex to wipe all his tears away. People assume that the ICs can use "mindgames" and "make reads or trick fox" into b-airs or stuff but don't consider that Fox can also think and trick the ICs while already playing from the advantageous position. I can't think of anything they have that would be able to fight that kind of play style.

When people see Chu beating mediocre Foxes playing like that it has more to do with Chu just being hella good and experienced compared to the Fox player. The Fox players on Chu's level that are just as comfortable vs the ICs as he is vs them really gay his character hard it seems Try to look at it from a theory craft perspective for the Fox will make just as many correct reads/trick the IC just as many times as it will happen the other way around and not Chu outreading/outplaying the other.

(kinda covering 2 thoughts at once here... including the IC match up, end ramble)

Making sure people see this whole post.

 

[Virusbluemage]

Wow shut the **** up already. You have no respect for the players and you should worry about yourself more then the players that will always do better than you.

Enough with the idiocy. You don't know that Shiz would place better than me, as Shiz and I have never entered a tournament together. You speak too much about what you don't know. I can't wait to beat you senseless at Pound 4.

@Wool: Shiz got ***** in 2 straight sets by Hungrybox at the last gigabites(it was bad); Shiz hasn't been doing too much ****** at all lately.

 

[Europhoria]

Should look at the match ups from an even point lol. If the ICs can trick the Fox, why can't the Fox trick the ICs? This is where I wonder how people like Mow or whatever can say Zelda/Peach is even or Fox/Roy is even lol. Just cause you trick bad Foxes doesn't make it even. >_> Keep that in mind when posting about your low tier

 

[Divinokage]

Enough with the idiocy. You don't know that Shiz would place better than me, as Shiz and I have never entered a tournament together. You speak too much about what you don't know. I can't wait to beat you senseless at Pound 4.

@Wool: Shiz got ***** in 2 straight sets by Hungrybox at the last gigabites(it was bad); Shiz hasn't been doing too much ****** at all lately.

You will do no such thing, you suck gtfo I don't want to play you.

 

[Kyu Puff]

I didn't really mean to make it sound like Fox can't trick ICs. Mostly my point was that ICs and Fox can punish each other equally hard, and Fox doesn't really have an easier time landing the deciding hit than they do. And I'm pretty sure Chu went even with PC. Sets from his prime mean more to me than a single loss to Jman.

 

[Virusbluemage]

You will do no such thing, you suck gtfo I don't want to play you.

Lol, I told them you would coward out and you and you said you wouldn't. It's cool if you don't want to play me though, I'm only interested in beating good players.

 

[wool]

Lol, I told them you would coward out and you and you said you wouldn't. It's cool if you don't want to play me though, I'm only interested in beating good players.

I dont think you know who youre talking to

 

[Europhoria]

I didn't really mean to make it sound like Fox can't trick ICs. Mostly my point was that ICs and Fox can punish each other equally hard, and Fox doesn't really have an easier time landing the deciding hit than they do. And I'm pretty sure Chu went even with PC. Sets from his prime mean more to me than a single loss to Jman.

Gah Sorry X.X I didn't mean to single you out, that was just a blanket statement kind of thing for people talking about their character. I don't think the ICs hit nearly as hard as Fox. Nana has to be alive and in sync for them to and against high level Fox players that isn't going to be the case very often. I think the match up is like 65-35 or 60/40 maybe for Fox because they'll ban FD and be gay. It's not impossible, but I think it's in Fox's favour. You have to noticeably out play.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHxPHwz8UU0&feature=related

Matches like that. He gets no chance to Wobble, not a single grab for it. Nana's lifespan is short. ICs just can't keep up with Fox's speed and offense. Zhu's in total control X.X I don't think the skill difference between the players is really large either.

I'd also like to say the game has evolved since PC and Chu used to play back in 06 despite what a few board members believe >_>

 

[Virusbluemage]

I dont think you know who youre talking to

Meh, I'm probably using terms too losely. Kage is a good player, but he isn't great. I'm only interested in beating great players.

@Euphoria: Zhu is a better player than Wobbles. The match would have been a lot closer had it been between Zhu and Chu Dat. Also I think Wobbles would do better against Zhu now than he did back then.

 

[Dorsey]

virus.... you are ********. Don't come back saying any stupid 'i know you are but what am I' logic either, you ***** *** troll. You're wrong about everything. You said that cort is the best peach only contested by pink shinobi... that is ridiculously stupid. You said that PC's fox can't compete with m2k.... that is ridiculously stupid. You're just really misinformed, not to mention that you come across like a complete **** with your narrow-mindedness. I've seen some of the best fox play, PERIOD, by PC playing m2k. Aside from that PC doesn't play much, why and the **** is it worth arguing over? (because you're a troll)

In short: Pretending that you know what you're talking about won't earn you respect around here, especially when you're wrong about absolutely everything. It's time to stfu and move on.......

 

[Divinokage]

virus.... you are ********. Don't come back saying any stupid 'i know you are but what am I' logic either, you ***** *** troll. You're wrong about everything. You said that cort is the best peach only contested by pink shinobi... that is ridiculously stupid. You said that PC's fox can't compete with m2k.... that is ridiculously stupid. You're just really misinformed, not to mention that you come across like a complete **** with your narrow-mindedness. I've seen some of the best fox play, PERIOD, by PC playing m2k. Aside from that PC doesn't play much, why and the **** is it worth arguing over? (because you're a troll)

In short: Pretending that you know what you're talking about won't earn you respect around here, especially when you're wrong about absolutely everything. It's time to stfu and move on.......

Ya PC did manage to beat M2k with his Fox multiple times, PC is sick and cool =P.

Meh, I'm probably using terms too losely. Kage is a good player, but he isn't great. I'm only interested in beating great players.

@Euphoria: Zhu is a better player than Wobbles. The match would have been a lot closer had it been between Zhu and Chu Dat. Also I think Wobbles would do better against Zhu now than he did back then.

That's your own personal opinion, I don't care what you think but you won't get very far at Pound 4.. get ***** in pools son.

 

[Dorsey]

Yeah man.. I'm at work and I don't recall the specific set but there's one pc v. m2k where he does so **** good. It may have even been the best I've ever seen someone play the match-up. I'd have to go back and look it's been awhile...

A rude awakening is an understatement to what he's going to receive if he goes to pound 4. Judging by his posts I would go ness against him in pools or bracket lol

 

[Virusbluemage]

virus.... you are ********. Don't come back saying any stupid 'i know you are but what am I' logic either, you ***** *** troll. You're wrong about everything. You said that cort is the best peach only contested by pink shinobi... that is ridiculously stupid. You said that PC's fox can't compete with m2k.... that is ridiculously stupid. You're just really misinformed, not to mention that you come across like a complete **** with your narrow-mindedness. I've seen some of the best fox play, PERIOD, by PC playing m2k. Aside from that PC doesn't play much, why and the **** is it worth arguing over? (because you're a troll)

In short: Pretending that you know what you're talking about won't earn you respect around here, especially when you're wrong about absolutely everything. It's time to stfu and move on.......

Oh my god, I've never seen such a dumb post where the user thinks he is saying something intellgient. I'm wrong about Cort being the best Peach in America only contested by Pink Shinobi? Then tell me who else can compete with him? You can't answer that can you? Do you feel dumb yet? FACT: PC's FOX NEVER BEAT M2K IN A SET AFTER POUND 3. If he repeatedly gets ***** by M2k then he doesn't stand a chance, the sheer idiocy of what you said annoys me.

You say I don't know what I'm talking about when you aren't in the slightest informed about the details of this duscussion, Please don't respond to this post unless you actually learn waht you are talking about.

@Kage: Lol. whatever.

 

[2.72]

Ummm... VBM? PC more or less quit after Pound 3.

 

[Divinokage]

Ok but what I don't understand is what does it matter that PC didn't beat M2k after Pound 3? PC semi-retired after that tournament so of course he would be out of it. You speak as though you were equal to these people in which you are not. The only other Peach I can see that can compete at high level can be Vwins, PC, Xif, Cort, Pink Shinobi, Vidjo, Xelic.. And obviously Armada now. These guys are mad sick and they do deserve respect because they are not *******s. Excuse me if I forgot any Peach don't kill me!

Your sig about me wanting to play you? Why would I want to do that since you are a random scrub + an *******.. this doesn't go along with me. Seems like you ONLY care about beating Great Players, people like that I don't give a ****.

I care about people that want to get better and want to be friends/chill.

 

[Mike G]

you forgot me!

*infracts*

<3

 

[Virusbluemage]

Lol, Xif and Xelic are nowhere near Cort or Pink Shinobi's level(geez Xelic got 33rd place at Genesis) and Vwins isn't American. Vidjo retired and until he gets rid of that rust he isn't anywhere near Cort or Pink Shonbi's level. either. If that is all you mention then you just proved my statement about Bort being tied for the best Peach true. And I'll say this again, you've never played me or see me play so you have no idea whether or not I'm on their level or not.

And my sig is a joke, I was talking about you on the live stream and the commentartors ended up saying ''Kage if you have any balls, you'll play Virusbluemage at Pound 4'' lol.

Edi: You didn't have to flame me. Grow up man.