Melee Match-Up Chart (NTSC) [Update 008 - 09.09.28]

[unknown522]

fox falco jiggs peach?

or marth jiggs peach ICs?

 

[KirbyKaze]

actually i screwed up, which is why i edited it out

but it's really only 3

ic peach puff

 

[unknown522]

Peach vs Sheik is like

Peach can float Fair and beat all Sheik's moves if it comes out but Sheik can hit Peach prematurely to punish (can be mitigated by better float back).

Peach low float stuff all goes under Sheik's aerials and therefore Sheik has to be falling to beat them with aerials but then Peach risks being D-smashed or F-tilted or something.

Not sure what else happens. I don't do this one much.

lol vwins.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Well, the trouble is if I used my personal experiences vs Peach, I could very easily say that Peach can edgeguard Sheik by plucking a Bob-omb at will, and can grab edge --> Bob-omb on Sheik and kill her at like 60.

Fortunately, I am aware that this does not trouble the masses as regularly as it gets me, so I can contentedly wait for someone with more knowledge to say stuff.

 

[BunBun]

lol vwins


That 1/256 chance or whatever sure seems more like a guaranteed thing, eh?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Well, the trouble is if I used my personal experiences vs Peach, I could very easily say that Peach can edgeguard Sheik by plucking a Bob-omb at will, and can grab edge --> Bob-omb on Sheik and kill her at like 60.

Fortunately, I am aware that this does not trouble the masses as regularly as it gets me, so I can contentedly wait for someone with more knowledge to say stuff.

5 stars .

 

[Hazygoose]

sheik 60-40 on peach.
sheik 55-45 on falco.
my exp from being my two most played matchups.

sheik is one of the few characters who can edgeguard peach. by "edgeguard peach," i mean even if we go off the stage and go for something crazy, it isn't hard to make it back without much punishment. peach can kind of do the same to sheik, but on any stage with walls or platforms (most neutrals have both), it isn't hard getting around it.

sheik's ground game beats peach. this doesn't mean spam dash attack and running dsmash...peach can easily destroy in return. but peach can't dash attack vs sheik much, because it's so easy for sheik to avoid it and get a grab-->guaranteed combo. peach can't even get a clean dsmash off if the sheik spaces decently, and sheik's speed lets her punish peach for little things like throwing out empty dsmashes about as well as fox does. dsmash spaced against shield puts good pressure on a peach, and is perfect for not letting a peach stand up or roll off the stage in any situation (they quickly shield and go right back to ledge with less shield, or get knocked back the other way. i guess it lets them get back on the latter but they take collateral damage.) so sheik's groundgame owns and from the ledge sheik can actually do stuff vs peach, while the opposite isn't really close to true.

like KK said, sheik's aerial speed can bite through peach's priority, it just takes a lot of mindgames and peach experience for a sheik to know when it is appropriate to rush in. also, needles own peach on platforms, she has to try to get under sheik (not often successful) or float above platform height (stupid). not to mention a needle kills a turnip when peach tries to pull one. needles really almost make it 65-35, i would go so far as to say.

sheik/falco and peach/falco i'll go into if prompted. those are like the 3 oklahoma matchups :X

edit: clarity

 

[KirbyKaze]

lol vwins


That 1/256 chance or whatever sure seems more like a guaranteed thing, eh?

I think he's done that to me about 3 or 4 times in tournament. At least once per set for our last 3 or 4 sets.

 

[-ACE-]

I think he's done that to me about 3 or 4 times in tournament. At least once per set for our last 3 or 4 sets.

That is insane.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

If you're in the position to land a ken combo....why wouldn't you do it?

i dunno, why?

i dont think you understood me or im misunderstanding you.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

so if you're in position to falcon punch tech chase, why wouldnt you do it?

 

[KirbyKaze]

lol vwins


That 1/256 chance or whatever sure seems more like a guaranteed thing, eh?

I remember reading on gamespot someone was looking for the statistics for turnip pulls by pulling a billion turnips

According to his results (numbers are approximations)

I think stitch turned out to be 1/50
I think bob-omb turned out to be 1/300

Not sure how accurate those are, though.

 

[Dark Sonic]

i dunno, why?

i dont think you understood me or im misunderstanding you.

My bad. It sounded like you were saying that Ken combos were "obviously bad and should never be attempted"

 

[Divinokage]

I remember reading on gamespot someone was looking for the statistics for turnip pulls by pulling a billion turnips

According to his results (numbers are approximations)

I think stitch turned out to be 1/50
I think bob-omb turned out to be 1/300

Not sure how accurate those are, though.

Vwins pulls out A LOT of turnips per match if you hadn't noticed yet lol.

 

[Dark Hart]

Why isn't Jiggz Top Tier yet?

 

[-ACE-]

I remember reading on gamespot someone was looking for the statistics for turnip pulls by pulling a billion turnips

According to his results (numbers are approximations)

I think stitch turned out to be 1/50
I think bob-omb turned out to be 1/300

Not sure how accurate those are, though.

I remember seeing this also a long time ago. I always thought that the 1/300 figure corresponded to the odds of pulling out ANY item, which might suggest that pulling out a bob-omb would be 1/1200 (if all 4 items have the same chances of being pulled), but that seems a bit far fetched. I've seen Peach pull more than a handful of bob-ombs over the years, lol.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Vwins pulls out A LOT of turnips per match if you hadn't noticed yet lol.

This is true. However the fact that he consistently pulls bombs on me when I'm at the edge really does, in my more lucid moments, make me question the integrity of his playing.

I think he cheats.

^.^

Vincent is too good.

 

[MaNg0]

good work.

understandable. Do you mind giving reasons?

Doesn't the chart say that?

i just feel like everything puff can do to falcon

combo / edgeguard / make it hard for falcon 2 get in


all falcon needs 2 do in my eyes is dash dance for single hits

1 u air .. i bair .. 1 u air .. then dash dance and wait for that grab

that knee hits mad hard and kills puff at gay percents

also falcon can live puffs aerials mad long if u dont rest him or edgeguard him

 

[Deleted member]

i just feel like everything puff can do to falcon

combo / edgeguard / make it hard for falcon 2 get in


all falcon needs 2 do in my eyes is dash dance for single hits

1 u air .. i bair .. 1 u air .. then dash dance and wait for that grab

that knee hits mad hard and kills puff at gay percents

also falcon can live puffs aerials mad long if u dont rest him or edgeguard him

basically this, jiggly isn't that good.

 

[Dark Hart]

basically this, jiggly isn't that good.

why do I disagree with this statement?

 

[idea]

hm...i guess i agree mostly.

but mango needs to rest falcons more =P

edit: i've had that display picture for a really long time now...maybe i should change it...

 

[Tero.]

LOL those Jigglypuff ratios are horrible.
Mango stop beeing so good, people actually think Jigglypuff is a good character.

Puff - Sheik 55:45? HAHA no ****ing way, are you kidding me?
Puff - Fox 35:65? Yeah that's about right.
Puff - Marth 40:60? That's ok I guess.
Puff - Falco 60:40? Are you crazy? LOL.
Puff - Falcon 55:45? More about even or 45:55
Puff - Peach 60:40? Nope.

Oh man, srsly.

 

[-ACE-]

Some of you guys talk as if Puff is a bad character lol

Erroneous!

 

[Dorsey]

Anyone with little practice with puff, who can space, mind game, and DI, can pick her and be very proficient in comparison to any other character under the same circumstances. She's the easiest character to play in the game, hands down.

Combining this with the fact that puff pretty much dominates both the east and the west coast now, i'd say that the statement 'jiggly isn't that good' is a little ridiculous.

 

[Strong Badam]

yes, because there are 2 or 3 really really good players with Jigglypuff ****** everyone, that must mean that Jigglypuff is an amazing character.
has nothing to do with player skill or anything. nope.

 

[Dorsey]

^very dumb post.

I was just refuting the statement 'jiggly puff isn't that good' with stuff that I know about jiggly and the current metagame. The people are all extremely skilled that I kind-of referenced, it doesn't make what I said false.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

lol jiggs easy to play.

that whole argument is void when under the same cicrumstances and time frame, with practice any space animal player can be 3 times as good as any jiggs player.

just cause a character isnt in the 250 actions per minute category doesn't mean theyre easy to play.

 

[Dorsey]

I never said jiggs was easy to play. I said that jiggs was the easiest to play as, under the circumstances I listed. If you feel there is an easier character to play as under those circumstances feel free to say so and explain why.

 

[Nintendude]

I remember seeing this also a long time ago. I always thought that the 1/300 figure corresponded to the odds of pulling out ANY item, which might suggest that pulling out a bob-omb would be 1/1200 (if all 4 items have the same chances of being pulled), but that seems a bit far fetched. I've seen Peach pull more than a handful of bob-ombs over the years, lol.

1/300 is for a specific item, so it's 1/100 for an item.

 

[Alphicans]

Dorsey makes a reasonable post, and then a couple people jump to conclusions on what he is saying? Seriously you guys :\.

 

[idea]

edit: and jiggs is definitely easiest to play =P but i don't think anyone is easy to play at top level. and i don't think jiggs is easiest to play at that level either (but close).

LOL those Jigglypuff ratios are horrible.
Mango stop beeing so good, people actually think Jigglypuff is a good character.

Puff - Sheik 55:45? HAHA no ****ing way, are you kidding me?
Puff - Fox 35:65? Yeah that's about right.
Puff - Marth 40:60? That's ok I guess.
Puff - Falco 60:40? Are you crazy? LOL.
Puff - Falcon 55:45? More about even or 45:55
Puff - Peach 60:40? Nope.

Oh man, srsly.

what numbers would you give for these? they all sound pretty good to me...

well, i might put falco at 55:45 or even, just cause i don't think many falcos play this matchup at top level. i mean, really, who can we go on for that?

zhu? i don't think mango ever goes puff on him.
shiz? he always approaches hungrybox =P
lambchops? debatable, but i think hbox is overall better and/or knows the matchup better.

a lot of falco players will go fox on jiggs. and rightly so.

and peach might be 55:45. but the ones that seem off are still in the vicinity of good.

 

[Wak]

I shall create my own perspective of the matchups. My only fear is the yoshi matchups, they are the very only ones I don't know at all =(

 

[john!]

I never said jiggs was easy to play.

She's the easiest character to play in the game, hands down.

Circumstances?

Now if Jiggs is the easiest character to play, then why has her popularity spiked only recently? Why did she not dominate the earlier stages of the metagame. The chief reason I think is because Puff counters the developments in the metagame itself. Like I said earlier, the past few years have seen a great improvement in people's DI, primarily against combos. Watch Duel of the Fates or the DBR vids and you'll see (I know some say the DBR ones were stages but w/e). Naturally people will become less effective at chaining aerials together, unless they play a character with great aerial movement, i.e. Jiggs. Now following up becomes easier. People's spacing has improved, but Puff is really hard to space against. Edgeguarding has become ruthlessly efficient (M2K, Armada) but Puff can float back untouched like always, and can edgeguard like no other by going off the stage.

It's too late in the metagame to say that Jiggs has "gotten better". She's the same Puff as ever, but the new heights the gameplay is reaching suit her well. It's not like Fox, who rose up the tier list just because people's tech skill increased.

If this is what you meant by "circumstances" then you're right. But I highly doubt it.

 

[choknater]

hm i like the new matchup charts

ehh i think falco vs ic is even but thats just me

 

[Tero.]

edit: and jiggs is definitely easiest to play =P but i don't think anyone is easy to play at top level. and i don't think jiggs is easiest to play at that level either (but close).



what numbers would you give for these? they all sound pretty good to me...

well, i might put falco at 55:45 or even, just cause i don't think many falcos play this matchup at top level. i mean, really, who can we go on for that?

zhu? i don't think mango ever goes puff on him.
shiz? he always approaches hungrybox =P
lambchops? debatable, but i think hbox is overall better and/or knows the matchup better.

a lot of falco players will go fox on jiggs. and rightly so.

and peach might be 55:45. but the ones that seem off are still in the vicinity of good.

Jigglypuff - Fox 35:65
Jigglypuff - Sheik 40:60
Jigglypuff - Marth 40:60
Jigglypuff - Falco 50:50/45:55
Jigglypuff - Falcon 50:50/45:55
Jigglypuff - Peach 50:50/55:45

I don't claim this to be 100% true, but it is definitly more accurate than the current ratios.

 

[Dorsey]

You quoted both of those like they contradict each other, me saying that she's the easiest to play at a competitive level does NOT mean that I think she's easy to play. Think about it. I also understand what you're saying, but DON'T understand why that's not assumed in this discussion. Anyway, I meant what I said, and it only took 1 sentence: "Anyone with little practice with puff, who can space, mind game, and DI, can pick her and be very proficient in comparison to any other character under the same circumstances."

Thanks alphicans, I'm always unsure about it, but never surprised with the over-analyzing of one's posts on this forum. People are so eager to be right around here at times that it's their mission to find flaws in someone's posts, and if there's not one then they'll just create one off of assumptions.

 

[john!]

I agree, Dorsey. You said "current metagame" but didn't elaborate further, so people were jumping down your throat for having Scar syndrome. I thought it was worth going into more detail. Why didn't you?

 

[Dark Hart]

yes, because there are 2 or 3 really really good players with Jigglypuff ****** everyone, that must mean that Jigglypuff is an amazing character.
has nothing to do with player skill or anything. nope.

hmm... 2 of the best players in the world use Jigglypuff. One of the best players on the East Coast uses Jigglypuff. Mango mains puff... and beats everyone. HBox is getting pretty close. We've seen top level Fox's, Falco's, Peach's, Falcon's, Sheik's and Marth's all play against this "bad character", and said character which apparently isn't that good keeps winning... but Purin is still not that good right? The whole world just hasn't been playing against her correctly for the past year and a half, right? Yea that must be it...

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i agree with tero. puff has hard match ups vs the higher tiered characters. if falco plays as safe as puff, falco should win. the matchup should probably be falco lasering and doing short combos while puff just tries to push falco off the stage for a gimp.

My only beef is puff vs peach which i always thought was for puff, but i just watched PCs peach beat mangos puff in a set and he plays the matchup much better than armada does. i could see peach having advantage in the matchup.

 

[idea]

Jigglypuff - Falco 50:50/45:55
Jigglypuff - Falcon 50:50/45:55
Jigglypuff - Peach 50:50/55:45

I don't claim this to be 100% true, but it is definitly more accurate than the current ratios.

k, i left the changed ones there. here are some brief descriptions of what i think for these matchups (cause they have already been discussed, and i have to leave soon =P):

falco
- lasers are good, dair is really good, uptilt is good too
- he loses some of his advantages vs. jiggs but still has falco priority and stuff
- on the other hand, jiggs isn't locked down by lasers as much, can avoid his attacks better than most characters, and once she hits him she can combo him a lot/get rests easily
- he dies offstage

so i think jiggs just has more going for her. falco's onstage game isn't good enough here to compensate for how easily jiggs can kill him (even though it's still really good).

falcon
- dash dancing, speed, aerial mobility, can actually kill her from a grab
- jiggs can edgeguard him and rest him easily...and duck really messes up falcon

they can hit each other pretty hard...the real question is, do jiggs' edgeguarding and ducking and combos make up for falcon's...running around game. i think they do. mango thinks they aren't enough. it's pretty close either way. we're probably thinking the same things here, and you just consider falcon's stuff to be better than i do.

peach
- seems like a spacing war (i don't get much peach practice)
- she has turnips and fair, jiggs has bair and not-so-risky resting

pretty much...they're both fine offstage, they're both good at spacing, neither can combo and both live for a long time. BUT peach tends to die a little easier, can get rested at lowish percents, tends to have a little more trouble spacing stuff, and can on occasion get edgeguarded. i think they play this matchup the same way and the slight differences are what give jiggs the advantage. (and peach's turnips don't hassle jiggs very much)