Melee Match-Up Chart (NTSC) [Update 008 - 09.09.28]

[wool]

Yes, because my social status in a geek community means so much to me. I should be striving to impress you guys, and here I am ****ing everything up.

I enjoy this ****, and if you took your head out of your *** you'd enjoy it too.

And by the way, I know more about this game than 90% of the community. I guarentee this.

Including the inactive accounts with 0 posts as a part of the 90% you mentioned doesn't say much. No one is going to listen to anything you have to say unless you prove yourself, and seeing how you don't want to interact with this so called "geek" community I doubt this will ever happen. Troll.

 

[idea]

Yes, because my social status in a geek community means so much to me. I should be striving to impress you guys, and here I am ****ing everything up.

I enjoy this ****, and if you took your head out of your *** you'd enjoy it too.

And by the way, I know more about this game than 90% of the community. I guarentee this.

come on mods, step it up. he could have been banned by now. =)

 

[KAOSTAR]

come on mods, step it up. he could have been banned by now. =)

He hasnt really done anything wrong. Altho, I dont agree with everything he has said he did bring an opinion and I believe supported it.

Hes just being argumentative and thats not a crime. Its like a less intellectual P.

If he bothers you just put him on your ignore list.

 

[Smoke and smash]

I like controversy. That's what the internet is good for (and porn). Sorry I can't flock with the sheep or whatever the expression is. And btw my "geek" statement shouldn't offend anybody. If I wasn't a geek I wouldn't be so involved with a video game, no?

 

[idea]

He hasnt really done anything wrong. Altho, I dont agree with everything he has said he did bring an opinion and I believe supported it.

Hes just being argumentative and thats not a crime. Its like a less intellectual P.

If he bothers you just put him on your ignore list.

doesn't bother me, it's just kind of a distraction. this thread has been really productive so far. actually, in a way, i guess it's a good sign that it's attracting trolls =P

and, good idea.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i think sheik does better vs CF than vs marth. the m2k techchase BS is pretty broken, and sheik ***** CF in every area of the game.

 

[Strong Badam]

the techchasing is funny because if Falcon holds upwards and lands on the ground, the jab reset doesn't work....

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

you have to SDI it. that only gets you into the air trying to escape, you're still at a disadvantage there. if you expect it, you could probably jab->ftilt or jab->dash attack(where he comes down)

 

[Strong Badam]

past 32%, jab would just make falcon pop up on his feet while holding up. iirc

 

[KAOSTAR]

Something like that, but just holding up will work around then.

 

[keeper]

past 32%, jab would just make falcon pop up on his feet while holding up. iirc

Couldn't the Sheik just do the second part of the jab from that point then if they were expecting the Falcon to get up?

 

[Strong Badam]

he can buffer a roll/spotdodge/jump/just jab from there, which would require Sheik to do some reading.

 

[keeper]

he can buffer a roll/spotdodge/jump/just jab from there, which would require Sheik to do some reading.

In the end, wouldn't that just make it like the original tech chase all over again, except with more options (Would/is Falcon's jab even faster)?

 

[Strong Badam]

except rolling and techrolling have completely different speeds o.O

 

[keeper]

except rolling and techrolling have completely different speeds o.O

Metagame just exploded everywhere. LOL

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

by 32% you can start using the jab to roll/attack instead of just standing up.

 

[JPOBS]

people say "oh its so easy all u have to do is hold up" or whatever i i dont doubt that BUT

tope and M2k ***** people with the dthrow tech chase at genesis (including darkrain), and i just watched vds of scar vs a sheik (forget who) from a no johns biweekly that happened like last weekend where scar was getting caught by it.

so unless this technique was just discovered after genesis, or scar just choosing not to do it in those vids, i'd like someone to explain to me why falcons dont just break the chain if its as easy as everyone makes it out to be?

just curious, im not flaming or anything

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

yea its not easy, its like SDIing out of fox's uair but a little harder IMO

 

[KAOSTAR]

people say "oh its so easy all u have to do is hold up" or whatever i i dont doubt that BUT

tope and M2k ***** people with the dthrow tech chase at genesis (including darkrain), and i just watched vds of scar vs a sheik (forget who) from a no johns biweekly that happened like last weekend where scar was getting caught by it.

so unless this technique was just discovered after genesis, or scar just choosing not to do it in those vids, i'd like someone to explain to me why falcons dont just break the chain if its as easy as everyone makes it out to be?

just curious, im not flaming or anything

Welll m2ks the one who taught me that originally. He kept doing it to me during friendlys and then DSF and him were laughin and ****. Then they told me how to get out of it.

 

[Strong Badam]

it's not like ridiculously easy to get out of, but it makes the Sheik have to work a hell of a lot harder to keep it up. I think Falcon's roll is like... 50% faster than his tech-roll. I'm pretty sure that you would have to read it (likely by messing up earlier and realizing your opponent knows how to get out) to keep it up.

 

[Rappster]

it would make sense to weight matchups.

a number system i think would work would be to multiply each matchup score by
(character score +795)/1000. the 795 is to make all the #s postitive, and the /500 is to keep the numbers a reasonable size.

for example, the ic's 55-45 matchup with sheik is worth 151.8 points ( 55*(585+795)/500), whereas ness's 55-45 matchup with pichu is only worth 11 points (55*(-695+795)/500).

The main problem with this system is that for matchup values under -295, the answers get really tiny, but i think this would be the most viable system for valuing matchups (ignoring character popularity, etc.)

i will edit in the top 4 or so's value adjusted matchups later

edit: sorry that this is so offtopic
edit2: Sheiks VAM (value adjusted matchups) = 2676.35
a character with all even matchups would have a VAM of 2067
Fox's VAM= 2587.85
Falco's VAM= 2553.65
Marth's VAM= 2507.45
Pichu's VAM= 640.25

 

[JPOBS]

yea its not easy, its like SDIing out of fox's uair but a little harder IMO

i see

it's not like ridiculously easy to get out of, but it makes the Sheik have to work a hell of a lot harder to keep it up. I think Falcon's roll is like... 50% faster than his tech-roll. I'm pretty sure that you would have to read it (likely by messing up earlier and realizing your opponent knows how to get out) to keep it up.

ahh indeed.

well im interested in seeing when this start becomes alot more utilized how sheiks react then.

 

[unknown522]

lol, I read "reading with sheik" somewhere.

 

[worldjem7]

Any issues related to anything about the rating system in place should be directly sent to me rather than be posted on the thread.

Thank you.

 

[joeplicate]

I like controversy. That's what the internet is good for (and porn). Sorry I can't flock with the sheep or whatever the expression is. And btw my "geek" statement shouldn't offend anybody. If I wasn't a geek I wouldn't be so involved with a video game, no?

if you were gonna talk about yourself like a badass you could at least make a blog

 

[KAOSTAR]

if you were gonna talk about yourself like a badass you could at least make a blog

haha that seems a little more fitting

 

[keeper]

it would make sense to weight matchups.

a number system i think would work would be to multiply each matchup score by
(character score +795)/1000. the 795 is to make all the #s postitive, and the /500 is to keep the numbers a reasonable size.

for example, the ic's 55-45 matchup with sheik is worth 151.8 points ( 55*(585+795)/500), whereas ness's 55-45 matchup with pichu is only worth 11 points (55*(-695+795)/500).

The main problem with this system is that for matchup values under -295, the answers get really tiny, but i think this would be the most viable system for valuing matchups (ignoring character popularity, etc.)

i will edit in the top 4 or so's value adjusted matchups later

edit: sorry that this is so offtopic
edit2: Sheiks VAM (value adjusted matchups) = 2676.35
a character with all even matchups would have a VAM of 2067
Fox's VAM= 2587.85
Falco's VAM= 2553.65
Marth's VAM= 2507.45
Pichu's VAM= 640.25

This is actually really neat.

 

[unknown522]

Ok, lets weigh the importance, shall we? Sheik raaaaaaaaaaapes marth. It's not 65/35 it's more like 80/20. Marth is played so heavily in the competitive scene it's not even funny. Sheik takes care of falcon too easily as well, that's more like a 70/30 matchup. Falcons are always around in tourneys so that's 2 auto-wins right there. Two guarenteed wins vs 2 extremely popular high tier characters. After that she has no bad matchups versus any of other other top tier chars. Fox is an even fight, sorry. And ice's are only used as a counterpick and besides nobody knows how to play ice's anymore. The IC meta has been slipping steadily.

Fox is 2nd to shiek guys.

Spacies definitely have the advantage, but not by much. They're generally better at landing hits on sheik and can do decent combos from those hits. Their edgeguarding is brutal on her as well, while she has a chance to mess up edgeguarding.

Even skill, sheik beats marth 80/20 no problem. 65/35 is a blatant lie.

Marth is too broken to get 8-2'd by someone. He has decent combos on her, and actually can DI out of hers by holding away. His CC is amazing vs her, just as her's is good vs marth's. Marth can also do decent combos out of throw, or even just keep her in the air with his u-tilt / u-air. Marth also can combo u-throw -> f-air after 20%, though none of the marth players do it for some reason. Edgeguarding is brutal both ways and super easy to do on each other. Marth also has the range advantage on sheik, along with better movement on the ground. Sheik's camping game is really gay to marth though and that's pretty much where sheik gets that random advantage from.

And by the way, I know more about this game than 90% of the community. I guarentee this.

Clearly not.

He hasnt really done anything wrong. Altho, I dont agree with everything he has said he did bring an opinion and I believe supported it.

Hes just being argumentative and thats not a crime. Its like a less intellectual P.

If he bothers you just put him on your ignore list.

LOL

i think sheik does better vs CF than vs marth. the m2k techchase BS is pretty broken, and sheik ***** CF in every area of the game.

I agree. Only by 5 points though.

the techchasing is funny because if Falcon holds upwards and lands on the ground, the jab reset doesn't work....

you have to SDI it. that only gets you into the air trying to escape, you're still at a disadvantage there. if you expect it, you could probably jab->ftilt or jab->dash attack(where he comes down)

past 32%, jab would just make falcon pop up on his feet while holding up. iirc

this

 

[4% APR]

lol at marth having a match up that's 20-80

 

[x After Dawn x]

lol that's like almost impossible.

But yeah, pretty sure Sheik ***** Falcon harder than Marth. Watching darkrain get 4-stocked by M2K was painful to watch. >_>

 

[idea]

i agree. sheik-falcon is worse than sheik-marth. but i heard somewhere that falcon mains tend to like the sheik matchup, at least more than some of the other top tiers...

so, falcon mains? hmm?

 

[adumbrodeus]

I like controversy. That's what the internet is good for (and porn). Sorry I can't flock with the sheep or whatever the expression is. And btw my "geek" statement shouldn't offend anybody. If I wasn't a geek I wouldn't be so involved with a video game, no?

But this isn't really an internet community, is it? You're tieing yourself to your irl personality, and if you troll, you're setting yourself up for issues IRL too.

It's not about being a sheep, it's about being wrong, sure Sheik can do nasty stuff to Marth, but Marth can do nasty stuff to Sheik too. Basically the difference is that Sheik outcamps him, and he's got issues if he lets them inside.


And no, that doesn't make you a geek, that gives you a hobby. Most of the people on smashboards have actual lives outside smash, aka, aren't losers.

And by the way, I know more about this game than 90% of the community. I guarentee this.

Lol, that's all I'm gonna say about that.

 

[Deleted member]

hmm, I think I'll add Zelda's since I know hers the best.

Top
Fox 10/90
Marth 40/60
Sheik 20/80
Falco 40/60

High
Peach 60/40
Peach's Turnips 40/60
Captain Falcon 15/85
Jigglypuff 65/35
Ice Climbers 60/40

Middle
Samus 50/50
Dr. Mario 55/45
Ganondorf 40/60
Luigi 40/60
Donkey Kong 45/55
Mario 50/50

Low
Link 60/40
Pikachu 40/60
Young Link 45/55
Roy 65/35
Zelda 50/50x
Game and Watch 75/25

Bottom
Ness 80/20
Yoshi 85/15
Bowser 70/30
Mewtwo 55/45
Kirby 55/45
Pichu 50/50

Zelda's on the left, her opponents on the right for the numbers. Zelda is one of the few cases where mario does better against her than doc does. her other matches sans fox sheik falcon are all surprisingly good for such a low tiered character.

 

[wool]

Could you please elaborate on why Zelda does so well against Falco? I know it is a bit easier to time powersheilds with Zelda, and her b can reflect Falco's lasers (although it has huge end lag) so I guess the Falco's laser game is slightly diminished. Usmash out of shield for Zelda does really well against fast fallers too I guess. She can also gimp Falco pretty well but any character can do that. Falco needs to avoid the sweetspotted fair/bair though. But Falco still has his amazing combo potential.

 

[unknown522]

hmm, I think I'll add Zelda's since I know hers the best.

Top
Fox 10/90
Marth 40/60
Sheik 20/80
Falco 40/60

High
Peach 60/40
Peach's Turnips 40/60
Captain Falcon 15/85
Jigglypuff 65/35
Ice Climbers 60/40

Middle
Samus 50/50
Dr. Mario 55/45
Ganondorf 40/60
Luigi 40/60
Donkey Kong 45/55
Mario 50/50

Low
Link 60/40
Pikachu 40/60
Young Link 45/55
Roy 65/35
Zelda 50/50x
Game and Watch 75/25

Bottom
Ness 80/20
Yoshi 85/15
Bowser 70/30
Mewtwo 55/45
Kirby 55/45
Pichu 50/50

Zelda's on the left, her opponents on the right for the numbers. Zelda is one of the few cases where mario does better against her than doc does. her other matches sans fox sheik falcon are all surprisingly good for such a low tiered character.

How does zelda do so well vs marth, falco, jiggs, G&W, ness, and yoshi?

Also, how does she beat link?

 

[Deleted member]

I base it off of my personal experience, not so much concepts to back them up. I figured people would question my zelda vs marth opinion before anything else.

as for falco, the only falco I've lost to in a long time was mango's, and both matches were on falco stages. Generally, my strategy vs falco is to powershield camp lasers to force approaches. This is, with practice, surprisingly reliable. My hardest falco playing opponents are also the ones that shoot the least.

wool, I'll be going to falls church virginia saturday night. if you wish, you can play my zelda on sunday or monday and come to your own conclusions based on those matches.

 

[wool]

Ooh a challenge
I am as confident as you are that I will lose
Is there a smashfest nearby? If so then I may go and will probably play you.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I base it off of my personal experience, not so much concepts to back them up. I figured people would question my zelda vs marth opinion before anything else.

as for falco, the only falco I've lost to in a long time was mango's, and both matches were on falco stages. Generally, my strategy vs falco is to powershield camp lasers to force approaches. This is, with practice, surprisingly reliable. My hardest falco playing opponents are also the ones that shoot the least.

wool, I'll be going to falls church virginia saturday night. if you wish, you can play my zelda on sunday or monday and come to your own conclusions based on those matches.

Would you say you zelda was better than Dark Musicians? Or have you been know to short hop double bobs for the entire match.

 

[4% APR]

i have a pretty decent zelda in my area and i think she does surprisingly well against marth. If you miss space at all or get a little greedy offensively you get kicked

 

[JPOBS]

zelda has advantage vs jiggs and ics?

please elaborate im interested