Melee Match-Up Chart (NTSC) [Update 008 - 09.09.28]

[Deleted member]

I've never played dark musician, but I have a better history vs better people. mikey lenetia is also really **** good.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

woah I thought it said 40-60 not 60-40 for ice climbers, I understand on behalf of their grab game being less on zedla but why? everyone has to beware of their grabs even pichu which only one chain throw works on must be careful (2 works on j-puff hand-off and d-throw jab grab).

I mean if I sere fighting zedla I would go nuts with de-synces because she's so slow(other than the smashes) and she can't get off the ground with out getting punished she is basicly screwed the ice climbers have one of thje stongest ground game in the game and few people can safely touch them not in the air and even in the air they are good(below you or in front). I know zedla couldn't easily juggle them or even as good as ice climbers juggling her.

The sheik card doesn't mean auto-win zedla can't camp him or grab them their smashes outrange our's, so what's your plan wavesmashes,juggleing,chain throws,de-synces all work well and their all their main ways to fight so WTF you going to do?

 

[Strong Badam]

who the **** is zedla?

 

[Scar]

people say "oh its so easy all u have to do is hold up" or whatever i i dont doubt that BUT

tope and M2k ***** people with the dthrow tech chase at genesis (including darkrain), and i just watched vds of scar vs a sheik (forget who) from a no johns biweekly that happened like last weekend where scar was getting caught by it.

so unless this technique was just discovered after genesis, or scar just choosing not to do it in those vids, i'd like someone to explain to me why falcons dont just break the chain if its as easy as everyone makes it out to be?

just curious, im not flaming or anything

yeah i didn't think XYT knew how to do it lol

most sheiks that aren't that good just watch you miss the tech and get confused, so i usually just try to do that, also helps me gauge how afraid i should be of their grabs

sheik can still **** CF out of grabs it's just not guaranteed 0-50 anymore

 

[Blatt Blvd]

wow, i just realized marth loses to c fal >.o

i thought the general consensus was marth wins.

was this changed recently??

 

[Smoke and smash]

wow, i just realized marth loses to c fal >.o

i thought the general consensus was marth wins.

was this changed recently??

It's an even match up, but falcon combos the balls off marth. He can follow up everything with anything. I'm assuming this is why he has a slight advantage.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

that doesnt explain anything, only the obvious.

 

[Smoke and smash]

that doesnt explain anything, only the obvious.

it explains everything, just in a general manner.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Both of them combo each other well. Marth can almost set up a "wall" of attacks to block off Falcon, and he edgeguards Falcon fairly well, too. Falcon can find an opening in this wall, and once he does, his combos just **** Marth.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

i know marth is dead indefinitely at anything over 70%.

thats a big factor and ive always known this.

but i guess ive just misunderstood people's opinions for the last year, cause I know it hasn't always been in capt favor.

 

[x After Dawn x]

A lot of people have different opinions on the matchup. Usually, it's no more than 60-40 in either character's favor. For example, M2K thinks it's 60-40 for Falcon but I believe Scar thinks it's 60-40 for Marth. And then, you have the people that think it's around even. I think it really has to do a lot with what person you are playing against, and how their style fares up against yours. In my experiences, I think a Falcon with good spacing and patience should be able to beat a more aggressive Marth, for example. But it really all depends on how you play, or how you see the matchup.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

i think you mean it all depends on if the [player] gets/has gotten ***** by a [character], then his opinion is formed off that(could also form an opinion from winning against a character).

its all character bias it seems.

just like how most peach players think fox/peach is 100000000/0 in fox's favor, when in actuality it's close to, if not, even.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Uh, not at all. Fox is Peach's worst matchup.

And if you want an explanation why Falcon counters / is countered by Marth, then I'm pretty sure there was discussion about it back, but I don't know how far you'd need to go lol.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

Uh, not at all. Fox is Peach's worst matchup.

never said it wasn't.

all im saying is alot of players who play very good characters complain alot when they dont autowin.

and we've all seen this through m2k

 

[Dark Sonic]

i think you mean it all depends on if the [player] gets/has gotten ***** by a [character], then his opinion is formed off that(could also form an opinion from winning against a character).

What he's saying is that the person's playstyle has a lot to do with how the matchup goes. Some Marths are really aggressive and Falcon can very easily counter that due to his superior mobility and his very, very harsh punishment. Marths who sit back and set up walls however are much harder for Falcon to deal with (especially if it's a Marth patient enough to NEVER approach if they don't have to), since Marth's walls are kinda hard to break through. It gets worse if Marth gets a stock lead and decides he wants to ledge camp (on the other hand, if Falcon gets a stock lead...things can get really frustrating for the Marth player.)

imo, the matchup as a whole is pretty even. The problematic part is that once somebody gets a stock lead, it's really hard for the other player to make it up (both of them have problems approaching each other. Falcon can bait and punish Marth's approaches and Marth just go through Falcon's)

 

[Life After Death]

lol fox is def even with with peach but no one will knwo till armada ***** with peach. unless he's wack vs fox then nvm

 

[x After Dawn x]

lol fox is def even with with peach but no one will knwo till armada ***** with peach. unless he's wack vs fox then nvm

Armada ***** everybody, he's an exception. lol

That's like saying because Mango has beaten every Fox before, then the matchup is even. >_>

 

[Blatt Blvd]

guys, i get the fact that its even and they gave it to falcon because he has an easier time killing than marth(among other things)(like 6 posts ago).

its what dawn said that made it sound like character bias is what makes this list.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

Armada ***** everybody, he's an exception. lol

That's like saying because Mango has beaten every Fox before, then the matchup is even. >_>

so then we cant use m2k anymore.

sorry for dubs

 

[Strong Badam]

lolol @ armada being an example
all of the foxes he played at genesis didn't play how they should have played (except for lunin, though he isn't an exceptional Fox). jman, maybe colbol, and I guess M2K's fox are the foxes that we should be taking a look at vs. peach, but it seems M2K prefers to use Marth since his Fox has gotten worse (in his opinion) over time. pc chris' fox probably would have done pretty well too, just because he's the epitome of offensive fox.
raynex is pretty good too.

it's fox advantage.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

peach doesnt have the advantage, but its not as bad as peach players make it out to be.

as strong bad would say, most peaches just dont play right vs even mediocre foxs.

like a mental block.

*see shiek players vs fox*

 

[Scar]

I think a Falcon with good spacing and patience should be able to beat a more aggressive Marth, for example.

i agree with these things but like that's not the point of a matchup chart

the matchup as posted in an official smashboards certified chart should reflect the match at the highest level of play using all the skill and strategies players have discovered and are capable of thus far

so for example marth should never approach falcon so aggressive marths DON'T KNOW the vs CF matchup so who cares if falcon beats aggressive marths?

i think CF vs marth is practically even, i think marth has an easier time getting hits and good marths have a very easy time getting CF off the edge, and marth kills CF almost 100% of the time off the ledge, but similarly if the marth ever messes up he can quite possibly get killed for getting hit ever

if marth never messes up he outspaces CF and can put enough spatial pressure on him to force him to approach, so if i were to put a number on it with near-perfect play (minimal human error ever) i'd say marth definitely wins at least 60-40

but practically the matchup is even (stage dependent, CF wins on DL64 and Stadium, Marth wins on YS and FoD)

 

[Dark Sonic]

but practically the matchup is even (stage dependent, CF wins on DL64 and Stadium, Marth wins on YS and FoD)

Actually, I feel that Marth does pretty well against Falcon there (minus the transformations of course, but those devolve to camping until the stage changes back anyway <_<). Falcon may have a lot of room to run around, but he can still very easily get caught on one of those two platforms (one good tech chase and Falcon is ready to be thrown up there. Even if he DIs to the middle, he still gets stuck above Marth and the platforms make it harder to get down in that situation) idk, I just think the matchup is more or less even on that level. I'd much rather have pokemon stadium than FD for example.

 

[x After Dawn x]

i agree with these things but like that's not the point of a matchup chart

the matchup as posted in an official smashboards certified chart should reflect the match at the highest level of play using all the skill and strategies players have discovered and are capable of thus far

so for example marth should never approach falcon so aggressive marths DON'T KNOW the vs CF matchup so who cares if falcon beats aggressive marths?

i think CF vs marth is practically even, i think marth has an easier time getting hits and good marths have a very easy time getting CF off the edge, and marth kills CF almost 100% of the time off the ledge, but similarly if the marth ever messes up he can quite possibly get killed for getting hit ever

if marth never messes up he outspaces CF and can put enough spatial pressure on him to force him to approach, so if i were to put a number on it with near-perfect play (minimal human error ever) i'd say marth definitely wins at least 60-40

but practically the matchup is even (stage dependent, CF wins on DL64 and Stadium, Marth wins on YS and FoD)

Yeah, but a Marth player is never perfect. Theoretically, a Marth player at "perfect play" could just wall Falcon all day, but players don't play "perfect", and people screw up. And when Marth screws up, Falcon can really capitalize on that situation. That being said, I think at really high level play, Marth has the advantage if he can DI properly and space himself well and be patient. But at anything lower than "really high level play", I could see it going either way. So I dunno.

Scar, what do you think about BF and FD? I'm guessing Falcon wins on BF and Marth wins on FD? Or is it the other way around?

 

[wool]

Scar, what do you think about BF and FD? I'm guessing Falcon wins on BF and Marth wins on FD? Or is it the other way around?

I would think the otherway around. Isn't Marth going to win on small stages, since there will be plenty of oppertunities to gimp? I don't know much about either characters TBH.

 

[Scar]

Yeah, but a Marth player is never perfect. Theoretically, a Marth player at "perfect play" could just wall Falcon all day, but players don't play "perfect", and people screw up. And when Marth screws up, Falcon can really capitalize on that situation. That being said, I think at really high level play, Marth has the advantage if he can DI properly and space himself well and be patient. But at anything lower than "really high level play", I could see it going either way. So I dunno.

Scar, what do you think about BF and FD? I'm guessing Falcon wins on BF and Marth wins on FD? Or is it the other way around?

i'm not saying perfect, i'm just saying like the best that marth can possibly be played right now, i.e. not screwing up. there aren't many very good marths out there atm but the ones that don't make stupid mistakes generally beat falcon players (all of us)

idk i still say stadium is in falcons favor but its prob pretty even, fd is even, battlefield is even. marths are afraid of CF on FD idk why but i guess so.

 

[Dark Sonic]

marths are afraid of CF on FD idk why but i guess so.

A lot of Marths are simply more comfortable working with platforms and would rather use those than rely on tech chases at lower percentages. And since Falcon can still combo the balls of Marth WITHOUT platforms, a lot of Marth players feel a little frustrated trying to get Falcon to that 35-40% he needs for Marth's combos to really start working on that stage (though if you're comfortable with tech chasing, this is still easily doable)

 

[Deleted member]

peach's worst match is easily marth, fair is better than her character. is this even debatable?

 

[Strong Badam]

uh....
fox has:
laser
upsmash
good edgeguarding

peach is slow, and this makes her campable.

marth just has spaced fairs (plus some other stuff)... it clearly didn't work out for m2k

 

[Scar]

A lot of Marths are simply more comfortable working with platforms and would rather use those than rely on tech chases at lower percentages. And since Falcon can still combo the balls of Marth WITHOUT platforms, a lot of Marth players feel a little frustrated trying to get Falcon to that 35-40% he needs for Marth's combos to really start working on that stage (though if you're comfortable with tech chasing, this is still easily doable)

combo the balls OFF marth

falcon can't hit marth, marth can hit falcon, marths hits combo into grab or put falcon on the ground, both of which result in tech chase to the ledge observe fsmash stock

that's all i'm saying

marth just has spaced fairs (plus some other stuff)... it clearly didn't work out for m2k

OMG TRUE

proof that peach marth is even

wow

 

[strawhats]

I had no idea marth's could Ledge cancel the landing lag after an up B. Also perfect marth's are almost non existent now a days. M2k played near perfect back in 06-07.

Id love to see m2k vs. SS

 

[Strong Badam]

OMG TRUE

proof that peach marth is even

wow

the match-up isn't even, it's clearly in marth's favor. that wasn't what I said at all
but fox has a bigger advantage over Peach than Marth does.

 

[Devil Ray]

wtf is up with straw hats and the past???

cap beats marth. he's a fast faller that can't get chain grabbed. imagine if the spacies couldn't get cg'ed and could jump out of the up throw. that's not quite cap, but it's close

 

[Blatt Blvd]

nope.

peach destroys fox if she gets him.

if peach gets marth its some percent.

marth is worse for peach

 

[x After Dawn x]

peach's worst match is easily marth, fair is better than her character. is this even debatable?

how are you part of the SBR, honestly.

topic change: is it true jiggs has the advantage on sheik? I remember a couple people saying they didn't feel comfortable doing the matchup with sheik, I think one of them was m2k. somebody bring up pros and cons for each character in the matchup? I don't really have much experience with it, but it would seem that jiggs outspaces sheik and can avoid her combos, namely anything > fair.

 

[strawhats]

wtf is up with straw hats and the past???

cap beats marth. he's a fast faller that can't get chain grabbed. imagine if the spacies couldn't get cg'ed and could jump out of the up throw. that's not quite cap, but it's close

Those from the past can shape the future that is... remember that one.

 

[Strong Badam]

imagine if the spacies couldn't get cg'ed and could jump out of the up throw.

then you would get Cactuar, whose success against spacies without the CG has been pretty solid.

 

[-ACE-]

then You Would Get Cactuar, Whose Success Against Spacies Without The Cg Has Been Pretty Solid.

qft .

 

[KirbyKaze]

how are you part of the SBR, honestly.

topic change: is it true jiggs has the advantage on sheik? I remember a couple people saying they didn't feel comfortable doing the matchup with sheik, I think one of them was m2k. somebody bring up pros and cons for each character in the matchup? I don't really have much experience with it, but it would seem that jiggs outspaces sheik and can avoid her combos, namely anything > fair.

Marth as Peach's worst matchup makes more sense than most of what's been posted in this thread.

Marth's dash dance > Peach on the ground.
Marth's sword > Peach in the air.

Don't do moves when you're not supposed to, guys.

Puff vs Sheik I don't really feel comfortable to give numbers. But for actual strategy, it's pretty simple.

Sheik can't approach with aerials because her aerial mobility and super high short hop suck for approaching Puff because of Puff jump back and duck.

Sheik can't approach from ground because she can't grab Puff because of duck (dash grab doesn't work on good Puffs fyi), her F-tilt has crap range on ducking Puff because of blind-spot, and her D-tilt has crap knockback so you can be crouch --> F-smashed for it.

If you D-smash she can shield the whole thing and aerial out of shield and get a free hit almost always even if you hit all 3 hits on her shield.

So Sheik just camps needles, camps platforms, and tries to sneak aerials in between Puff's because spacing aerials is really hard when you have bad aerial mobility and they have really good aerial mobility. Sheik's pretty limited against Puff. Fortunately, camping a projectile that beats moves and running back and forth is really good against Puff, though, so Sheik does okay just because of how gay her camping is.

 

[john!]

Everything that Strong Bad said last page is right.

nope.

peach destroys fox if she gets him.

if peach gets marth its some percent.

marth is worse for peach

What, like chaingrabbing fox? That chaingrab is really hard and only possible on FD. Don't believe me, listen to the first 20 seconds of this vid. Also, smart Foxes will CC a dsmash rarely if ever. Meanwhile Peach's high traction lends itself to ridiculous drillshine combos, usually ending with shine to upsmash. Fox's grab to uair kills at like 70 and works most of the time (unless you SDI). This thread from the Peach boards should seal the deal. Yeah that's right, I cite my sources. :D

I don't usually use Puff vs. Sheik, but I know that if Sheik gets a grab at >75% it's over. Also Puff can rest Sheik's up-B somewhat easily. What KK said sounded good.