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MegaMafia | Day 4 - Mafia wins!
- Thread starter Scav
- Start date
smashman90
Smash Lord
How can you not see it? This game is based alot like a megaman game. There's almost always 8 robot masters (The Power games seem to be the exception as far as I know) in a mega man game and guess how many robot masters we have in this one? 8. And if you have played a mega man game, then you should know that each boss has a weapon that is powerful against another boss. It's part of the flavor here. In the Megaman 8 game, Search Man's weapon was homing missiles, thus one of the characters in this game must have a weakness to homing weapons in whatever game they appeared in. This is how we're suppose to find out the robot masters.
No, I don't buy it. I see where your coming from but your jump to weaknesses isn't flying with me. I've played a bit of MM as well. So don't think it's that. Plus almost all of your posts have been about the characters. I think your fishing to be honest. Also why do we need to find the master robots smash? You mean megamafia? Bad slip there.
Smashman, yet again you give us a post that has NOTHING useful, after barely anything relating to the current situation. On top of that, do you REALLY think Scav would make the game like that? That makes a nameclaim **** near gamebreaking, because the mafia would have to know not only a character to claim, but what their weakness was and if there was someone in the game who fit it, and what their weapon was and if there was someone in the game that was weak to it.
Quite frankly, your two largest posts have been speculation that helps us in NO WAY whatsoever, and are obscure theories to begin with. Just because the flavor is Megaman and he used the base setup of 8 masters does NOT mean that it follows Megaman to a T. Stop trying to guess at what the characters would be if this was a Megaman game, and start trying to figure out who is scum like the mafia game it is.
Quite frankly, your two largest posts have been speculation that helps us in NO WAY whatsoever, and are obscure theories to begin with. Just because the flavor is Megaman and he used the base setup of 8 masters does NOT mean that it follows Megaman to a T. Stop trying to guess at what the characters would be if this was a Megaman game, and start trying to figure out who is scum like the mafia game it is.
Ninja'd twice, but points remain the same, this is NOT a Megaman game. This is a mafia game. Stop trying to look at it as the former, and start paying attention to what matters for the latter.
smashman90
Smash Lord
Nope, didn't slip at all. I have been learning how this game works and there is info that I haven't revealed yet. I was doing this while you guys were too busy scumhunting. And I'm trying to search for any other info I may have miss.
Yes. Yes, I do. I have proof, Scav even hinted about it in the thread (Search Man's death):
It is following the game to a T.
HOP oFF SMASHMAN PLEASE. HE IS NOT VERY SUSPICIOUS AT ALL RIGHT NOW. SINCE HE'S DOING EXACTLY WHAT HE DID IN SPIDERMANFIA. [TRIED TO RESEARCH STUFF AND GET INFORMATION ABOUT THE GAME FROM FLAVOR]. AND HE WAS TOWN IN THAT GAME,
SO FOR NOW I DON'T FIND HIM SUSPICIOUS AT ALL.
CAN PEOPLE TELL ME WHY THEY ARE UNWILLING TO LYNCH IGGY?
SO FOR NOW I DON'T FIND HIM SUSPICIOUS AT ALL.
CAN PEOPLE TELL ME WHY THEY ARE UNWILLING TO LYNCH IGGY?
smashman90
Smash Lord
Because his role kinda makes sense and he's being more helpful than Warlord is. I'm not sure if I trust his claim as Grenade Man seeing as this would be the second robot master from Megaman 8, though. I kinda thought that it would've been some sort of other bomb type character from another game like Napalm Man or Crash Man or Bomb Man.
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2003
- Messages
- 5,517
If I was going to fake a claim, do you really think I'd choose a Robot Master from the same game that the only other one that has been outed has been from?
Are you serious? You are basing Scav putting in a game-breaking detail over flavor? And, in case you didn't realize, it was NIGHT ONE. It's not like Megaman could have a power yet, so how would that make sense. It's flavor that melds well with the game it's based on, but that doesn't mean he meant it literally. What does that really mean? That just because the bots have powers doesn't mean they're failproof. If you want to play the "Make major assumptions based on what the mod said" game, let's look at this quote:
"There are other surprises in store, but I can't reveal those yet. As Mafia games go, I vastly prefer good scumhunting (and lying) to bingo nightactions."
So, Scav prefers good scumhunting but builds his game with an absolutely game-breaking, catch all factor in it? I highly doubt it. Not only that, but the game is based on Megaman 1-9. There are some weapons that existed in one game and in no others, that would therefore require another bot from the same game that was weak against that weapon, and to branch to other games from there would require both having a weakness to a recurring weapon/theme.
Fact of the matter is, your speculations do absolutely nothing for the town. In fact, the biggest things you have posted have nothing to do with the game itself, but instead with things that are non-verifiable, and a waste of time that could be better spent discussing what actually matters in this game: figuring out who is mafia.
Also, this quote right here really, really doesn't sit well with me.
Now, let me just say a few things to point out how useless trying to determine gamebreaking things based on flavor is.
In HP mafia, did town have to find horcruxes and get Harry shot to kill voldie? No.
In Spidey-mafia, did town have to find Spiderman? No.
Long story short, flavor is just that. Flavor. Mafia games are not made to fit the subject of their theme as if they are a game/story from that theme, flavor is given to them to make things more interesting.
Really, I didn't find it that strongly suspicious, merely misguided, until you made the too busy scumhunting quote. It's like you're flat out saying that scumhunting is a waste, and we should instead spend days looking over possible(not even necessarily existent) game mechanics, when town doesn't benefit at all from neglecting scumhunting.
"There are other surprises in store, but I can't reveal those yet. As Mafia games go, I vastly prefer good scumhunting (and lying) to bingo nightactions."
So, Scav prefers good scumhunting but builds his game with an absolutely game-breaking, catch all factor in it? I highly doubt it. Not only that, but the game is based on Megaman 1-9. There are some weapons that existed in one game and in no others, that would therefore require another bot from the same game that was weak against that weapon, and to branch to other games from there would require both having a weakness to a recurring weapon/theme.
Fact of the matter is, your speculations do absolutely nothing for the town. In fact, the biggest things you have posted have nothing to do with the game itself, but instead with things that are non-verifiable, and a waste of time that could be better spent discussing what actually matters in this game: figuring out who is mafia.
Also, this quote right here really, really doesn't sit well with me.
While we were "too busy scumhunting"? Seriously, the ENTIRE. POINT. of this game is scumhunting, hence mafia. While we're busy playing the game, you're busy trying to make it into a Megaman game. In this way you make it look like you're really playing and contributing when all you're really doing is posting useless fluff, and avoiding looking at players for things that actually matter to the game.
Now, let me just say a few things to point out how useless trying to determine gamebreaking things based on flavor is.
In HP mafia, did town have to find horcruxes and get Harry shot to kill voldie? No.
In Spidey-mafia, did town have to find Spiderman? No.
Long story short, flavor is just that. Flavor. Mafia games are not made to fit the subject of their theme as if they are a game/story from that theme, flavor is given to them to make things more interesting.
Really, I didn't find it that strongly suspicious, merely misguided, until you made the too busy scumhunting quote. It's like you're flat out saying that scumhunting is a waste, and we should instead spend days looking over possible(not even necessarily existent) game mechanics, when town doesn't benefit at all from neglecting scumhunting.
@SMASH. I BELIEVE HE IS TELLING THE TRUTH ABOUT WHAT HIS ROLE POWER IS. THE pOWER IS SEVERELY ANTI TOWN AND I DONT BELIEVE HE IS TELLING THE TRUTH ABOUT HIS ALIGNMENT. ALSO, I DO NOT LIKE TO NOLYNCH. WE DID IN SPIDERMANFIA ALOT AND GOT ****ED CUZ OF IT.
CHACO AND SMASH. I HAVEN'T REALLY BEEN READING SMASHMANS POSTS TO CLOSELYC UZ I JUST FIGURED THEY wERE RANDOM FLAVOR BASED RESEARCH STUFF. BUT IF SMASHMAN IS POSTING SOMETHING THAT WOULD OUT OUR PRS POWERS OR GIVE SCUM A HEAD UP THAN YOU SHOULD STOP. [I DON'T PLAY MEGAMAN {TERRIBLE GAME} SO I DON'T REALLY KNOW MUCH ABOUT WHAT SMASH IS GETTING AT]
CHACO, HOW DO YOU FIGURE I AM BEING TUNNEL VISIONED. ALSO HOW IS SMASHMANS PLAY "WAY DIFFERENT"
EVERYONE ELSE, ANSWER MY PREVIOUS QUESTION.
CHACO AND SMASH. I HAVEN'T REALLY BEEN READING SMASHMANS POSTS TO CLOSELYC UZ I JUST FIGURED THEY wERE RANDOM FLAVOR BASED RESEARCH STUFF. BUT IF SMASHMAN IS POSTING SOMETHING THAT WOULD OUT OUR PRS POWERS OR GIVE SCUM A HEAD UP THAN YOU SHOULD STOP. [I DON'T PLAY MEGAMAN {TERRIBLE GAME} SO I DON'T REALLY KNOW MUCH ABOUT WHAT SMASH IS GETTING AT]
CHACO, HOW DO YOU FIGURE I AM BEING TUNNEL VISIONED. ALSO HOW IS SMASHMANS PLAY "WAY DIFFERENT"
EVERYONE ELSE, ANSWER MY PREVIOUS QUESTION.
OH AND XPLAIN THE "SLIP"
[MeNTOS NINJA'D ME]
[MeNTOS NINJA'D ME]
ALSO MENTOS, THOUGH I AGREE WITH YOU. IN HPMAFIA, IF WE DID CHOOSE TO RELY ON FLAVOR, THEN WE WOULD HAVE LYNCHED MARSHY[VOLDeMORT/MAFIA]. BECAUSE M3D BASICALLY TOLD US D1 THAT HE WAS SCUM. I JUST THOUGHT IT WAS FUNNY THAT YOU INCLUDED HPMAFIA IN THAT ARGUMENT.
Basically, Smash is trying to assume of such characters, which would mean he's telling out possible Master Robot's names (that basically means the townies). And as said before, I feel that Smash should really stop that >>;;
and I'm not sure about everyone else, but for the most part...me, you, and Evil eye are the only three voting him at the time. As I said, I don't think Iggy's character is town and the power itself is telling me that it's anti-town.
Listen guys, we all had a chance to make discussions and whatnot in terms of other people and upon the game itself, but now isn't the time. Now is the time we decide on who to lynch, so leave all major arguements to the side about the game in general and start picking who we should lynch....
I'm not much in favor for a no lynch really. We had a good amount of disccussion for D1. D2 I might be in favor for a no lynch, but not right now.
I'm not much in favor for a no lynch really. We had a good amount of disccussion for D1. D2 I might be in favor for a no lynch, but not right now.
chaco, macman, mentos, ee, iggy = town or not scum
everyone else can die. alliance guys?
vote wiki
everyone else can die. alliance guys?
vote wiki
Heh. Marshy replaces Xsyven. Votecount incoming.
Ignatius - 3 (Evil Eye, Macman, Rockin)
Smashman - 1 (Chaco)
Wikipedia - 1 (Marshy)
Not voting: Ignatius, Omni, Smashman, Wikipedia, Handorin, Mentosman
Please note: I will begin posting votecounts every 2 days from here on out. Please double check to make sure I've tracked you correctly. PM me if there are any issues.
Additional, more important note: Due to a high number of replacements, I am extending the deadline to Monday, August 28th, at 11:59pm central.
Smashman - 1 (Chaco)
Wikipedia - 1 (Marshy)
Not voting: Ignatius, Omni, Smashman, Wikipedia, Handorin, Mentosman
Please note: I will begin posting votecounts every 2 days from here on out. Please double check to make sure I've tracked you correctly. PM me if there are any issues.
Additional, more important note: Due to a high number of replacements, I am extending the deadline to Monday, August 28th, at 11:59pm central.
might as well say i don't care who we kill as long as it's not one of those dudes i listed. i'm assuming warlord just wanted to see his role work for whatever reason. i'd like smashman, wiki, or hando to go toDay and am surprised they haven't been getting more negative attention
what crap. there was a town role in spidey maf who could force someone to post only once a day
Marshy, I'm just curious. Why do you feel we shouldn't lynch Iggy? He has a character, as stated, that doesn't know from friend or foe.
WAIT THAT WAS a TOWN ROLE
Yeah, don't you remember? It was by MexicanBJ/Wario-man (Mex's replacement) where I shot him on D2. Unfortunatly,
NO F U MAARSHY YOU'RE NOT OFF THE HOOK. 
I DON'T ACCEPT THAT AS A FIRST POST.
I DON'T ACCEPT THAT AS A FIRST POST.
just join the alliance silly
rockin i must've missed that. was that just flavor?
and iggy's been spending his entire time defending himself and not giving any suspicions i think. but i'm more skeptical of smashman, wiki, and hando because their posts have a lot of fluff. and i'm willing to just rule 1 lynch hando
rockin i must've missed that. was that just flavor?
and iggy's been spending his entire time defending himself and not giving any suspicions i think. but i'm more skeptical of smashman, wiki, and hando because their posts have a lot of fluff. and i'm willing to just rule 1 lynch hando
It's not exactly a flavor, it's something that has been studied upon the internet as well as real reference when playing the Mega man 8 game. I'll explain
In Mega Man 8, when you face Grenade Man, sometimes he'll be hitting you with his grenade blaster. Other times he'll hit the wall after jumping over you, thus hitting himself and actually damaging himself. When researching him, it says that he doesn't know friend from foe. We, as Robot Masters, are trying to destroy Mega man, and having a person who doesn't even know what alignment it is is bad for us. Coupled with the part that that his powers doesn't seem anti-town (though now that you bring up spidey mafia, I guess that wouldn't much matter in this arguement).
It's just...from what I'm seeing, Iggy seems like the Indie IMO.
In Mega Man 8, when you face Grenade Man, sometimes he'll be hitting you with his grenade blaster. Other times he'll hit the wall after jumping over you, thus hitting himself and actually damaging himself. When researching him, it says that he doesn't know friend from foe. We, as Robot Masters, are trying to destroy Mega man, and having a person who doesn't even know what alignment it is is bad for us. Coupled with the part that that his powers doesn't seem anti-town (though now that you bring up spidey mafia, I guess that wouldn't much matter in this arguement).
It's just...from what I'm seeing, Iggy seems like the Indie IMO.
Also Scav, Don't you mean Monday Aug 31st? (seeing as how our last deadline was Saturday, Aug 29th)
And yes, I do agree that Smashman has been little help.
And yes, I do agree that Smashman has been little help.
EHHH AND HIS ROLE IS ONE OF THE NORMAL ROBOTS? I MEAN lET ME GET THIS STRAIGHT. TOWN CONSISTS OF BOSSES FROM GAMES RIGHT? IS IGGY ONE OF THOSE BOSSES?
NOT KNOWING FRIEND FROM FOE SEEMS LIKE A MORE LEGIT REASON [FLAVORWISE] FOR HIM HAVING A ROLE LIKE THAT.
STILL THO.
NOT KNOWING FRIEND FROM FOE SEEMS LIKE A MORE LEGIT REASON [FLAVORWISE] FOR HIM HAVING A ROLE LIKE THAT.
STILL THO.
wow enough with all this flavor nonsense and researching the game. i remember omni being dumb earlier and asking if lynching megaman would win the game or something like that. just kill suspicious people and stop talking about worthless flavor or try to break the game or anything dumb like that. huge reason town lost in hp mafia like mentos said
why do none of you guys have any interest in the constant fluff we get from hando, smashman, and wiki?
and what? i thought robot masters were town. then wily as indy. then megaman and some of his friends (who it is exactly doesn't matter at all) as scum
why do none of you guys have any interest in the constant fluff we get from hando, smashman, and wiki?
and what? i thought robot masters were town. then wily as indy. then megaman and some of his friends (who it is exactly doesn't matter at all) as scum
Alright. Before I delve into Chaco's points, let's look at the history of Chaco's suspicions against me:
This (click here) is the first time he mentions suspicion of me. He compares my playstyle to that of Kiki in Spidey and puts forth the Too Townie Fallacy as his evidence. I already responded to this as a nonargument, and I'm certain I'm not the only one who thinks so. That said, this is how it started for him.
This post was made on the 19th of August. That's a week ago today. An entire week without substantiated argumentation... just waggling his finger at me.
Compare this to his going after MasterWarlord oh-so-thoroughly, trading blows with every post. Warlord was at least given arguments to defend himself against, but Chaco's objective was apparently nothing more than to keep me in the town's eye.
Despite such actions undermining my scumhunting to a degree -- depending on how sheepish the individual townie is feeling -- and despite his use of the "too townie fallacy", I thought nothing of it. It's a good thing that he wanted the town to keep its eye on the big talkers. I think one can agree that his method was found wanting, but I believed his spirit to be true.
He reiterates his point three days later when pressed for his top suspects:
Follow your own logic with me here:
You note that you're feeling me as "too townie" and compare me to Kiki.
Three days pass.
You list me as your/a top suspect. Your argument is still a comparison to Kiki and still the Too Townie fallacy. That's not turning up the heat. That's putting up one of your top suspects with zero substantiation whatsoever, and it doesn't fly in a good town. What productive responses were you trying to gauge? The only reaction to being billed a top suspect via a complete non-case is frustration -- on either side of the tape.
And yet still I see no ill will on your part. As poor a point as comparing me to Kirby King is, I could understand the feelings that would sow that suspicion.
But hey, I'm just summarizing points I've already made.
The next day (click) and you're all about Warlord, once again. Where'd that PbPA go, by the way? Certainly, if you feel we're approaching the game from opposite wavelengths, you must have had plenty to say that I didn't say in my own post.
Immediately after my post, on the same day, you fire off this ninja'd claim, which was in response to Hando calling out "too townie" as the nonargument it is:
You claim you meant to get a reaction, but as I've said, there's only one reaction to such a bewilderingly illogical "case", regardless of what flag you're flying. If you want to apply pressure for a reason, do it with an actual argument and see where that gets you.
This post (click) here comes late into the evening of the 24th, where you finally promise to lay down an argument. I await it with open arms.
He glides through the 25th, engaging the conversation, and then mentions:
Oh, but then he loses 20 minutes' worth of typing. Well, computers suck, and so on. Understandable. Rockin suggests he type it out again, to which he responds with:
...and then, finally, the post. I finally have the post, and it's three days before the deadline.
I'm not accusing you of deliberately narrowing the window, but I am accusing you of procrastination. Most players are prompt with their assertions, regardless of allignment, and this makes it a lot easier for an exchange to take place and then be evaluated by those observing it. If you're really going to vote for me with a lynch in mind, can you really say it wouldn't have been more productive to engage this a week ago? Especially when you've quite enthusiastically compared me to a player that writes a novel per game (and I myself am known to do so)?
Any debate we have at this point is going to be rushed and scrambled. If it was your intention to create such a stage for our exchanges, then good on you. You've certainly succeeded. If you didn't realize how long you sat on your suspicions before substantiating them in the slightest, then understand why I can't help but narrow my eyes at someone that works to keep me a hoarsely whispered name without a scrap of evidence for so long.
And now for the case itself.
This sounds like a nitpick, but it absolutely is not! The actual, quoted words of the person you are dissecting is paramount for an objective observer. This allows them to, in an instant, read the words, then your interpretation, then the words again, and so on until they've made up their mind. It allows them the most efficient way to evaluate the points being made, because they see both halves of the argument simultaneously.
Instead, you are merely pointing to a post and saying "this is what EE did". Yes, you provide post numbers, but that's a far cry from having it visible on one's monitor at the same time, or at least in a provided link. You require the reader to do unnecessary work to actually verify your arguments. Just to respond to your post, I've had to have three or even four windows of the this same thread open!
You say you're going to make my (the reader's) life easier. But this reads as "I'm going to make it easier for you to take my word for it".
Well, prepare for me to make life a whole lot "harder" for you, but I will at least give your points the proper posterity as I respond to them. Chaco is in lime green, and I am in orange.
I could see "answering questions for others" as a scumtell if it was someone else asking the question, but it wasn't. Why would I ask him a pointed question and answer it for him if it was my intention to "cover for him"? I was the first person to even bother steering conversation onto the subject!
In the second cited paragraph, you see that I'm far more interested in what other people have to say about it. Rarely is the first thing that jumps out at you in a mafia game going to yield scum. And I'm talking "three days later, he rose again" level of rarity. Seeing how other people regard said "jumping out thing" is a far more productive avenue. I asked the town as a whole what they thought about Wikipedia's proposition, and provided my own opinion, because that was my point in bringing it up to begin with.
Sorry, Chaco, but this point falls flat on its face.
The fact is that you were flat out wrong. We were questioned as to whether Macman makes typos like that, and he doesn't. A common Macman typo would be a lack of capitalization, using "yu" in place of "you", and minor things of that nature. Here's a sample of the kind of post people were talking about:
It is ironically you that has made this into "a huge deal".
2) Pointing things like this out does not help town in anyway, and as I explained quit explicitly, we could have been facing a mafia that had written off the possibility of a cop with the death of the investigator.
And it's not like you speculating that there is a tree stump in the game whatsoever. A tree stump is a very rare role and would not be nearly as useful to us. A cop is a town-alligned player that determines allignments.
I'm bewildered by the fact that you think this couldn't affect the game at all. You were, just weeks ago, a mafia partner with Kirby King who spent almost the entirety of Spider-Manfia hunting for the cop.
3) Using your own words, "it's not role fishing unless someone really reacts to the text". Um, people are human, and people make mistakes. In parethenses and in your own following sentence, you cite an example of this happening!
4) For starters, this is a continuation of the earlier thing about Wiki, where I was trying to to get town opinion of his suggestion of a No Lynch. This is not a new example. Second of all, I didn't "automatically excuse it", I posited my own assumption. An assumption that I'd already stated... on this point that I was reiterating, not a new point.
It honestly feels more like you're just looking at every post and trying to justify it from a scum POV, rather than reading them individually and actually trying to get an objective read. Pounding a square peg into a round hole, as the saying goes. And man, I'm only on the second post.
Already, your decision to not quote my posts is starting to look incredibly dubious. This is a point that, in its isolation, can make me look incriminated, and yet that's only because it lacks its true context:
My objection to talking about a posting restriction, for starters, is about talking about a posting restriction in and of itself. That yields nothing. When someone deliberately falsely counterclaims this posting restriction (which he apparently placed on him to begin with), it's become an entire new avenue of discussion.
That post had little to do with Macman and everything to do with MasterWarlord. You should be pretty aware of this since you drove home the exact same points over the next several days. I guess you're just as guilty of bringing up Macman's posting restriction.
If I accused Omni of blatant exaggeration at some point, your point here borders on libel.
Here's what I actually said in regards to Wiki:
Even if I was answering his questions for him up to that point, which is not true, the fact that he was staying way out of a big topic of discussion doesn't become any less valid.
So the foundations you laid this point on fail, and even if they were solid, your point still fails.
You're either being incredibly dense, or you're doing your damnedest to contort my points into something they are not. Can you seriously not tell the difference between talking about a posting restriction someone appears to have and talking about someone deliberately faking the same posting restriction for the sole purpose of incriminating them in the process? You might as well be comparing the politics of Mali to the politics of Canada. Sure, the general subject is the same, but the context and nature of the discussion couldn't possibly be any more dissimilar.
And I'm not going to apologize or explain myself for having a differing opinion from someone else. My rationale for everything I've said regarding Xsyven from the beginning of this game is well-documented in my exchanges with Omni on the subject.
Before I continue with what Chaco said, I'll ask that my response to Omni (click) be read in full. Omni's entire post is on display, I believe, or at least as it applies to me. This is what Chaco is referring to agreeing with.
I brought this information forth because it's incredibly relevant when discussing Xsyven. I myself always have a hard time reading him, and that's after playing many games with him and modding one with him in it.
Your point here is basically to fault me for finding one player more suspicious than the other. In this case, Warlord moreso than Xsyven. But aren't you guilty of this exact same thing?
And here's what I actually said in P194:
And here's what Macman said, which I was responding to:
The only pressure I undermined here was Macman's pressure to lynch someone quickly... and nothing else. I didn't undermine a pressure vote, and I didn't defend anyone. This is another example where you point to a post (without providing the post) and say I did something that barely resembles what I said at all.
Chaco skips over my big post entirely, which I find pretty odd in a post where he makes a case against me. After all, the big post contained all of my thoughts on the Day's happenings, completely summarized and made current (up to right before Iggy's replacement).
The next post he responds to is in fact 22 posts after that one:
Moreover, I wasn't blaming things so much as stating facts. It does screw up a Day when the top two suspects are replaced in rapidfire. Do you really think it doesn't? More importantly, I was pointing this out while also looking at ways we could look forward and still make the most of our situation. Here's what I actually said:
And now that I'm done with his PbPA, I can drop the color scheme.
Anyway, throughout the course of the game, people pointed out some things about Xsyven that I had missed -- specifically the speed with which he caught onto Macman's precise post restriction, which was apparently dumb luck. This made me look at him more critically, and I started to get a bad vibe when I did my reread, hence my opinion beginning to change. Opinions change in the face of new information, steadfast beliefs or denial merely deflect it.
Reading your case was quite enlightening. It really does feel like rather than doing some objective scumhunting, your intention was to bend my words and actions to fit your "case", if it can be so called.
I'm not certain what to make of that, but it could be that the suspicion came before any evidence and you then strived to locate some. I'm guilty of that one myself, and so I leave that open as a likely possibility. At the same time, there is something sinister about the way you've worked to keep "EE is suspicious" at the forefront while not substantiating your assertions for so long, and then engaged debate with such weak points and in such a skewed, one-sided manner.
This is all in response to Chaco's post only. Preview post informs me that I have probably broken all mafia "ninja" records. I'll try to respond to whatever we're talking about before going to sleep.
This (click here) is the first time he mentions suspicion of me. He compares my playstyle to that of Kiki in Spidey and puts forth the Too Townie Fallacy as his evidence. I already responded to this as a nonargument, and I'm certain I'm not the only one who thinks so. That said, this is how it started for him.
This post was made on the 19th of August. That's a week ago today. An entire week without substantiated argumentation... just waggling his finger at me.
Compare this to his going after MasterWarlord oh-so-thoroughly, trading blows with every post. Warlord was at least given arguments to defend himself against, but Chaco's objective was apparently nothing more than to keep me in the town's eye.
Despite such actions undermining my scumhunting to a degree -- depending on how sheepish the individual townie is feeling -- and despite his use of the "too townie fallacy", I thought nothing of it. It's a good thing that he wanted the town to keep its eye on the big talkers. I think one can agree that his method was found wanting, but I believed his spirit to be true.
He reiterates his point three days later when pressed for his top suspects:
Whoa there, son. Turning up the heat is one thing, and productive (see: Omni's exchange with yours truly), but here you flatly call me your top suspect (assuming the list of suspects went sequentially).
Follow your own logic with me here:
You note that you're feeling me as "too townie" and compare me to Kiki.
Three days pass.
You list me as your/a top suspect. Your argument is still a comparison to Kiki and still the Too Townie fallacy. That's not turning up the heat. That's putting up one of your top suspects with zero substantiation whatsoever, and it doesn't fly in a good town. What productive responses were you trying to gauge? The only reaction to being billed a top suspect via a complete non-case is frustration -- on either side of the tape.
And yet still I see no ill will on your part. As poor a point as comparing me to Kirby King is, I could understand the feelings that would sow that suspicion.
But hey, I'm just summarizing points I've already made.
The next day (click) and you're all about Warlord, once again. Where'd that PbPA go, by the way? Certainly, if you feel we're approaching the game from opposite wavelengths, you must have had plenty to say that I didn't say in my own post.
Immediately after my post, on the same day, you fire off this ninja'd claim, which was in response to Hando calling out "too townie" as the nonargument it is:
Well, no argument here, obviously. But who can blame someone for pointing it out when it's been four days since you waved the FoS at me, and you've yet to make a single substantial point? It's a pretty easy assumption that "too townie" was your argument when, well, it's literally the only argument you've put forth.
You claim you meant to get a reaction, but as I've said, there's only one reaction to such a bewilderingly illogical "case", regardless of what flag you're flying. If you want to apply pressure for a reason, do it with an actual argument and see where that gets you.
This post (click) here comes late into the evening of the 24th, where you finally promise to lay down an argument. I await it with open arms.
He glides through the 25th, engaging the conversation, and then mentions:
Emphasis mine. At last! I can finally respond to the suspicions he has been letting fester for nearly a week without presenting me with a single avenue by which to engage him!
Oh, but then he loses 20 minutes' worth of typing. Well, computers suck, and so on. Understandable. Rockin suggests he type it out again, to which he responds with:
I thought you were finished with your schoolwork? This is a pretty glaring inconsistency any way you slice it.
...and then, finally, the post. I finally have the post, and it's three days before the deadline.
I'm not accusing you of deliberately narrowing the window, but I am accusing you of procrastination. Most players are prompt with their assertions, regardless of allignment, and this makes it a lot easier for an exchange to take place and then be evaluated by those observing it. If you're really going to vote for me with a lynch in mind, can you really say it wouldn't have been more productive to engage this a week ago? Especially when you've quite enthusiastically compared me to a player that writes a novel per game (and I myself am known to do so)?
Any debate we have at this point is going to be rushed and scrambled. If it was your intention to create such a stage for our exchanges, then good on you. You've certainly succeeded. If you didn't realize how long you sat on your suspicions before substantiating them in the slightest, then understand why I can't help but narrow my eyes at someone that works to keep me a hoarsely whispered name without a scrap of evidence for so long.
And now for the case itself.
It takes me an absolute maximum of two seconds to copy something, type in quote tags, and paste it. I'm sure you're quite computer savvy, and to respond to me point by point you had to have the thread open and ripe for copying.
This sounds like a nitpick, but it absolutely is not! The actual, quoted words of the person you are dissecting is paramount for an objective observer. This allows them to, in an instant, read the words, then your interpretation, then the words again, and so on until they've made up their mind. It allows them the most efficient way to evaluate the points being made, because they see both halves of the argument simultaneously.
Instead, you are merely pointing to a post and saying "this is what EE did". Yes, you provide post numbers, but that's a far cry from having it visible on one's monitor at the same time, or at least in a provided link. You require the reader to do unnecessary work to actually verify your arguments. Just to respond to your post, I've had to have three or even four windows of the this same thread open!
You say you're going to make my (the reader's) life easier. But this reads as "I'm going to make it easier for you to take my word for it".
Well, prepare for me to make life a whole lot "harder" for you, but I will at least give your points the proper posterity as I respond to them. Chaco is in lime green, and I am in orange.
This is, in fact, the case. Moving on.
This is the only such case that I can recall in the entirety of this game. I'll elaborate in a moment since you cite the post itself.
Alright, and now let's go to my actual post to see what I said.
In the first paragraph I flatly state that I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt, so I'm not sure why you're pointing to this like it's a clandestine secret that I did so. With that said, if you look at the first point, I clearly say that if that is not the case, I'd like to hear why he suggested an NL. As in, I was only interested in his response if it was not a joke about EM.
I could see "answering questions for others" as a scumtell if it was someone else asking the question, but it wasn't. Why would I ask him a pointed question and answer it for him if it was my intention to "cover for him"? I was the first person to even bother steering conversation onto the subject!
In the second cited paragraph, you see that I'm far more interested in what other people have to say about it. Rarely is the first thing that jumps out at you in a mafia game going to yield scum. And I'm talking "three days later, he rose again" level of rarity. Seeing how other people regard said "jumping out thing" is a far more productive avenue. I asked the town as a whole what they thought about Wikipedia's proposition, and provided my own opinion, because that was my point in bringing it up to begin with.
Sorry, Chaco, but this point falls flat on its face.
And now I want to point out what I actually said.
What did I make it out to be, exactly? A question was posed to everyone (not just you), and I offer my opinion on it. I say I feel you misled the person that asked the question, and that I don't like that. Did I call it a scum tell? Nope. Did I demand and explanation? Negative. Did I make it a "huge deal at all"? No.
The fact is that you were flat out wrong. We were questioned as to whether Macman makes typos like that, and he doesn't. A common Macman typo would be a lack of capitalization, using "yu" in place of "you", and minor things of that nature. Here's a sample of the kind of post people were talking about:
It doesn't resemble Macman at all, and you said it did. You lead the person that asked the question to the conclusion that he does... which is false. I believe that the Oxford dictionary would agree you had, by clear definition, "misled" him.
It is ironically you that has made this into "a huge deal".
And what i actually said:
1) My point was that we have nothing to gain by speculating about town roles, which is considered a no-no, so why are we doing it in the first place?
2) Pointing things like this out does not help town in anyway, and as I explained quit explicitly, we could have been facing a mafia that had written off the possibility of a cop with the death of the investigator.
And it's not like you speculating that there is a tree stump in the game whatsoever. A tree stump is a very rare role and would not be nearly as useful to us. A cop is a town-alligned player that determines allignments.
I'm bewildered by the fact that you think this couldn't affect the game at all. You were, just weeks ago, a mafia partner with Kirby King who spent almost the entirety of Spider-Manfia hunting for the cop.
3) Using your own words, "it's not role fishing unless someone really reacts to the text". Um, people are human, and people make mistakes. In parethenses and in your own following sentence, you cite an example of this happening!
4) For starters, this is a continuation of the earlier thing about Wiki, where I was trying to to get town opinion of his suggestion of a No Lynch. This is not a new example. Second of all, I didn't "automatically excuse it", I posited my own assumption. An assumption that I'd already stated... on this point that I was reiterating, not a new point.
It honestly feels more like you're just looking at every post and trying to justify it from a scum POV, rather than reading them individually and actually trying to get an objective read. Pounding a square peg into a round hole, as the saying goes. And man, I'm only on the second post.
(for those confused, he's referring to 118)
Already, your decision to not quote my posts is starting to look incredibly dubious. This is a point that, in its isolation, can make me look incriminated, and yet that's only because it lacks its true context:
Are you seriously trying to say that I just randomly brought up Macman's posting restriction and decided to discuss it again? That in no way, shape, or form resembles the post that you hae responded to.
My objection to talking about a posting restriction, for starters, is about talking about a posting restriction in and of itself. That yields nothing. When someone deliberately falsely counterclaims this posting restriction (which he apparently placed on him to begin with), it's become an entire new avenue of discussion.
That post had little to do with Macman and everything to do with MasterWarlord. You should be pretty aware of this since you drove home the exact same points over the next several days. I guess you're just as guilty of bringing up Macman's posting restriction.
If I accused Omni of blatant exaggeration at some point, your point here borders on libel.
I asked one question of him that I provided a possible explanation for, because I was only interested in what he had to say if he actually wanted the NL. You've already stretched this thing thinner than a French condom.
Here's what I actually said in regards to Wiki:
Saying I'm "doing all his talking for him" is again just... not true, not even a littel bit. This is a good point I've made, and I certainly never gave him an opinion for the the many lines of discussion that were presently going on, was I?
Even if I was answering his questions for him up to that point, which is not true, the fact that he was staying way out of a big topic of discussion doesn't become any less valid.
So the foundations you laid this point on fail, and even if they were solid, your point still fails.
Alright, man. Once again, it was about Warlord's faking OF the restriction. I believe in one of my earliest posts on the subject, I said posting restrictions are valuable avenues of discussion only in some circumstances, one of which being if it is fake and we catch a slip. Which we had.
You're either being incredibly dense, or you're doing your damnedest to contort my points into something they are not. Can you seriously not tell the difference between talking about a posting restriction someone appears to have and talking about someone deliberately faking the same posting restriction for the sole purpose of incriminating them in the process? You might as well be comparing the politics of Mali to the politics of Canada. Sure, the general subject is the same, but the context and nature of the discussion couldn't possibly be any more dissimilar.
...no. I have pointed my finger at certain things I found suspicious on Xsy's part, and then evaluated my own opinion of others' examples as such. At this point I was not having a scummy read of Xsyven, despite a few things I didn't like. Kind of like how I didn't have a scummy read of you, despite a few things I didn't like. But nobody was talking about you.
And I'm not going to apologize or explain myself for having a differing opinion from someone else. My rationale for everything I've said regarding Xsyven from the beginning of this game is well-documented in my exchanges with Omni on the subject.
Um. The "people such as yourself or Chaco" was mentioned because Omni brought it up. And the initial aside? Yeah, it applied to you. Because you were one of the people speculating about town roles. What's your point? Do you even have one? You made a point that means nothing here, and then proceeded to parrot Omni. And on that subject...
Before I continue with what Chaco said, I'll ask that my response to Omni (click) be read in full. Omni's entire post is on display, I believe, or at least as it applies to me. This is what Chaco is referring to agreeing with.
In what way is a unique insight into Xsyven's playstyle "extraneous information"? For an entire week the only aspect of your suspicions you'd voiced hinged solely on that!
I brought this information forth because it's incredibly relevant when discussing Xsyven. I myself always have a hard time reading him, and that's after playing many games with him and modding one with him in it.
Your point here is basically to fault me for finding one player more suspicious than the other. In this case, Warlord moreso than Xsyven. But aren't you guilty of this exact same thing?
(I think he meant 194)
And here's what I actually said in P194:
And here's what Macman said, which I was responding to:
Asking who we're going to lynch is not applying pressure -- nor did I say it was scummy, actually. It's... asking who we're going to lynch. It's a question that might be asked to push a Day toward finalization and I felt it was especially premature.
The only pressure I undermined here was Macman's pressure to lynch someone quickly... and nothing else. I didn't undermine a pressure vote, and I didn't defend anyone. This is another example where you point to a post (without providing the post) and say I did something that barely resembles what I said at all.
Chaco skips over my big post entirely, which I find pretty odd in a post where he makes a case against me. After all, the big post contained all of my thoughts on the Day's happenings, completely summarized and made current (up to right before Iggy's replacement).
The next post he responds to is in fact 22 posts after that one:
I was absent for a very brief period of time -- still reading all the while -- and came back into things in a more than productive enough manner to make up for it. I also was not under heavy fire at the time.
Moreover, I wasn't blaming things so much as stating facts. It does screw up a Day when the top two suspects are replaced in rapidfire. Do you really think it doesn't? More importantly, I was pointing this out while also looking at ways we could look forward and still make the most of our situation. Here's what I actually said:
And now that I'm done with his PbPA, I can drop the color scheme.
This is not a scumtell or a towntell. It's merely an indication of playstyle.
No I did not, and this is more than thoroughly explained above.
This wasn't really... addressed all that well... since you skipped over my giant post.
Anyway, throughout the course of the game, people pointed out some things about Xsyven that I had missed -- specifically the speed with which he caught onto Macman's precise post restriction, which was apparently dumb luck. This made me look at him more critically, and I started to get a bad vibe when I did my reread, hence my opinion beginning to change. Opinions change in the face of new information, steadfast beliefs or denial merely deflect it.
You did not provide a single example of that in any of your post. The closest you came to doing so was pointing to an exchange I had with Omni on the subject, which I feel I refuted in the same post you were pointing to.
Not evidence, and it looks like we're back to square one. because this is the least shaky thing you said in your entire case.
Reading your case was quite enlightening. It really does feel like rather than doing some objective scumhunting, your intention was to bend my words and actions to fit your "case", if it can be so called.
I'm not certain what to make of that, but it could be that the suspicion came before any evidence and you then strived to locate some. I'm guilty of that one myself, and so I leave that open as a likely possibility. At the same time, there is something sinister about the way you've worked to keep "EE is suspicious" at the forefront while not substantiating your assertions for so long, and then engaged debate with such weak points and in such a skewed, one-sided manner.
This is all in response to Chaco's post only. Preview post informs me that I have probably broken all mafia "ninja" records. I'll try to respond to whatever we're talking about before going to sleep.
smashman90
Smash Lord
Well no dip sherlock, I know it's using various characters from various mega man games. Why do you think that I said this?:
Jeez, noticed how I changed it from homing missiles to homing weapons? Wasn't hard to figure that one out. I know the friggin complete formula (to which I won't tell for good reasons), I can basically give you guys the mafia. All I need is nameclaims and I will know if somebody is lying to me or not. This is my time to put on the Big Boy Pants and show that I actually know what I'm doing. Besides that, how often do I get like this and I turn out wrong? Last I checked, 0 times. And remember how I got like this in Nowhere Man Mafia when trying to get Rockin lynched and remember how he turned up mafia?
Yes, I'm being serious. The mafia made the mistake in killing Search Man. He was the reason how I discovered the formula in the first place. If it was somebody other than Search Man, then I probably wouldn't have discovered the formula. Oh and yea, I loved how you ignored the lying part and the other surprises part.
It's doing more than you think it's doing. With this information, it can help me find mafia.
I'm not just posting fluff. You guys are focusing too much on scumhunting, there is more to the flavor than you think. I'm using the info I gathered from the flavor to help me scumhunt.
Uhh Scav, I think you made a boo boo there. Friday is the 28th, Monday is the 31st.
Marshy, I'm not trying to put heavy study into the game. I'm just putting things into logic. There are usually reasons (from what I understand) why said characters have said roles and alignments. I'm doing my best to find out these reasons while not heavily (or if any) relying on flavor.
Not sure if you noticed, but at the time, I didn't find Master Warlord truly suspicious. I've just saw him just breaking down and not much giving up a fight. I have later been keeping my main eye on Smashman, the guy who's putting Mega Man and Bass logic in the game, even though scav himself said that the game follows from Mega Man 1 to Mega man 9. I've been wanting Smashman to post something of value with the topic for the longest and even kept my vote on him even though he's been posting. Why? because he hasn't been discussing much. In my top suspects list, I've listed in the order of who I find suspicious from the most to least. It was Master Warlord, Smashman, and Xsyven. The only reason why smashman isn't first is because Smashman has done nothing much but been fluff with words, where as Warlord has been the most suspicious in my eyes.
I just want to say that I've been looking at each person long and hard, and that I do have my eye on each person, so I havn't been tunnel visioned or looking at the game too hard.
Not sure if you noticed, but at the time, I didn't find Master Warlord truly suspicious. I've just saw him just breaking down and not much giving up a fight. I have later been keeping my main eye on Smashman, the guy who's putting Mega Man and Bass logic in the game, even though scav himself said that the game follows from Mega Man 1 to Mega man 9. I've been wanting Smashman to post something of value with the topic for the longest and even kept my vote on him even though he's been posting. Why? because he hasn't been discussing much. In my top suspects list, I've listed in the order of who I find suspicious from the most to least. It was Master Warlord, Smashman, and Xsyven. The only reason why smashman isn't first is because Smashman has done nothing much but been fluff with words, where as Warlord has been the most suspicious in my eyes.
I just want to say that I've been looking at each person long and hard, and that I do have my eye on each person, so I havn't been tunnel visioned or looking at the game too hard.
smashman90
Smash Lord
Rockin, I'm pretty sure I mentioned this earlier that The Power Battle takes place between Mega Man 7 and 8, the Power Fighters takes place right after Mega Man 8, and then Mega Man and Bass takes place a year after Mega Man 8 and it was even mentioned in Mega Man 9. I haven't played 9 yet, so I'm not sure if the reference means that the events of MM&B has already happened or if it was about to happen. Those three games are canon btw, and I just told you when those 3 games took place in the timeline. Therefore, it is possible that we may get characters from MM&B (kinda doubt it though). That also means that Megaman and Bass have teamed up and it was indeed canon. Therefore, it is possible that Bass is in the megamafia or he could be the indy. Furthermore, I proved that they take place between Megaman 1-9 (with the possible exception of MM&B).
@Marshy, how the heck did you get the idea that Wily is the Indy? He sent us to beat the megamafia. Why would he want to fight us?
@ Macman- Grenade Man was a boss in Megaman 8 and should be a townie, I got a clue about where the whole masochism thing came from and if I'm right about it, .
And now on smashman:
It's true that he reads a lot into flavor at times (Spidey in particular... he hypothesized that Carnage could come back through his symbiote) as a townie. I didn't read or play HPMafia, so I'll take your collective word for it that doing so was disastrous.
And relying on flavor is disastrous. Smash, I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make about weaknesses? Are you trying to imply that mafia would have to steal and then use a certain weapon to kill a certain Robot Master? Because yes, in addition to breaking the game in town favor on name/roleclaims, it completely breaks it at night. As long as mafia can outfox the possible night actions, they get a clean kill. It's an ancient law of this game. This element would make the game 100% stacked against mafia.
And even on a flavor level that doesn't really work. Wouldn't the first kill have to be someone weak only to the mega buster... or something? Like Metal Man or Cut Man. I don't want to get deep into flavor because as said before it's almost always unproductive, but on a flavor level your flavor argument for a game mechanic doesn't work. More importantly, on a practical level it doesn't work.
It's difficult to make a read on what smashman is doing. He does tend to focus a lot on flavor as town. At the same time, I've never seen him as mafia -- perhaps a mafia smashman would use his flavor precedent as an excuse to post often, and post fluff in the process. I have to agree with the ultimate conclusion, at any rate, that his posts have been almost completely unhelpful. And of course, "while you guys were too busy scumhunting" is probably the most troubling thing I've heard someone say in a long time. Troubling as in perplexingly foolish, or troubling as in scummy as all hell? That's the million dollar question.
That's about all I've got for now. I need sleep.
It's true that he reads a lot into flavor at times (Spidey in particular... he hypothesized that Carnage could come back through his symbiote) as a townie. I didn't read or play HPMafia, so I'll take your collective word for it that doing so was disastrous.
And relying on flavor is disastrous. Smash, I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make about weaknesses? Are you trying to imply that mafia would have to steal and then use a certain weapon to kill a certain Robot Master? Because yes, in addition to breaking the game in town favor on name/roleclaims, it completely breaks it at night. As long as mafia can outfox the possible night actions, they get a clean kill. It's an ancient law of this game. This element would make the game 100% stacked against mafia.
And even on a flavor level that doesn't really work. Wouldn't the first kill have to be someone weak only to the mega buster... or something? Like Metal Man or Cut Man. I don't want to get deep into flavor because as said before it's almost always unproductive, but on a flavor level your flavor argument for a game mechanic doesn't work. More importantly, on a practical level it doesn't work.
It's difficult to make a read on what smashman is doing. He does tend to focus a lot on flavor as town. At the same time, I've never seen him as mafia -- perhaps a mafia smashman would use his flavor precedent as an excuse to post often, and post fluff in the process. I have to agree with the ultimate conclusion, at any rate, that his posts have been almost completely unhelpful. And of course, "while you guys were too busy scumhunting" is probably the most troubling thing I've heard someone say in a long time. Troubling as in perplexingly foolish, or troubling as in scummy as all hell? That's the million dollar question.
That's about all I've got for now. I need sleep.
The deadline is Monday, August 31st. (Apparently I had pulled up September's calendar )
)
Considering we're looking for Megaman I do think this was a slip. The way he tries to wiggle disturbs me as well. I agree with him that metagaming could lead to certain revelations but right now he's just posting his thought process which only helps Mafia. If you're going to metagame do it in silence until you've found something that can help pinpoint Megaman.
@Marshy: Welcome to the game. Like Macman said you're not off the hook so stop buddying with a general group of people. What do you think of Xsyven's play?
@Smashman: Just read your previous post. So you want us to give the name of our robots so we can reveal our possible powers to the Mafia so they can skip hitting people like Iggy and focus on some of us who may have very helpful skills. We have 3 facts:
1.) There are bots from Megaman 1-8.
2.) Search Man was killed. He's from Megaman 8.
3.) Iggy claimed Grenade Man. Also from Megaman 8.
I see what you're trying to do but you should be careful. Scav said there are bots from Megaman 1-8, but he didn't say there had to be a master robot from each game. The only way we could work on a "formula" is if we had enough information and facts to create one. We don't and you're formula requires a certain amount of assumption for things to add up.
Also, take into consideration that we have an Indie. If the Indie is a master robot and Scav conveniently takes one robot from each Megaman and puts them in the game then two robots will have to be from the same game. That's only IF Scav created the game in this fashion. We don't have any proof, but if he did then well Iggy is our indie.
Killing Iggy could give us a lot of information. It would tell us if there could be multiple master robots (townies) from the same game. If he came up Indie then it does support the theory that there is one robot from each game. Thus a full robot name claim may reveal 7 robots from the rest of the 7 games. Then the Mafia cc'ing one of each game.
That's all I need for the moment. Warlord's stupid play, Warlord's stupid reactions to the play, the fact that Grenade Man's role yells out Indie, and the fact that lynching Iggy will confirm if two master robots (townies) can exist in the same game.
vote: Iggy