Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[Sunnysunny]

Hey there! I hate to ask this but I can't find it anywhere else, does anyone else know the exact amount of frames a shield drop takes?

I found that shield canceling, then jump canceling a u-smash out of aurasphere charge is a true combo at certain percents, and I just wanna know the exact amount of frames i'm saving from shield drop by doing this.

I assume it's around 12 frames or so? Thanks in advance~!

 

[Lavani]

Hey there! I hate to ask this but I can't find it anywhere else, does anyone else know the exact amount of frames a shield drop takes?

I found that shield canceling, then jump canceling a u-smash out of aurasphere charge is a true combo at certain percents, and I just wanna know the exact amount of frames i'm saving from shield drop by doing this.

I assume it's around 12 frames or so? Thanks in advance~!

Shielddrop is 7 frames, but there's also a minimum shield hold time of 11 frames. So it's an 18f commitment that you circumvent with the JC Usmash.

 

[Sunnysunny]

DAMN! Ya don't say?
That's absurd. No wonder shield canceling it never got any good follow ups.

Thanks for that~ I was really baffled for awhile at why charge into d-air worked, but not charge into u-tilts. One more question I guess. I know jump start up varies from character to character, but what's the average? 5 to 7? My apologies again.

 

[Xygonn]

There's an 10(?)% chance to trip when attacks don't lift you off the ground. This existed in Brawl as well.

Yeah, it's probably this. I don't know exactly what the probability is. I think the probability isn't fixed (i.e. it's calculated from a formula). I've never tripped with a jab at 0% but it seems to happen pretty often at 100%+.

From the wiki: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Tripping

in addition, if an attack hits targets at a low angle (such as the Sakurai angle) and the target does not leave the ground from the knockback, there is an additional chance to trip.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Historically, most characters have had a jumpsquat animation of 5 frames. It varied a bit (Pikachu was lower, Bowser was higher). Not sure about the numbers in this game.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Okay, I'm going to be asking some really simple stuff here.
Yesterday, I had only just found out that Pikachu's Side Special can be input like a Smash Attack to make it charge faster. This came as a huge surprise to me, because previously, I had thought it to be exclusive to Samus's missiles.

What other characters have moves like this, and what effects does doing this have on them?

 

[Azazel]

I've noticed there is some sort of generic tripping mechanic for moves with NO trip probability. With Samus, jab 1 will trip my opponent fairly often around 100%. However, if you look at the frame data there is no trip probability. Is there some understanding of how these trips happen?

Any sakarai angle can trip between certain knockback units. Jab is probably a sakarai angle and at 100% has just enough knockback to trip.

 

[CarbuncleHero]

I'll re-ask here again, but can someone please use the 1/4 mode to get the frame data for pikachu to test for any changes? Please actually test it. Using 1/4 mode still gives 1 frame correct? I found changes and I just need to have them verified. Just the tilts or smashes would be enough.

 

[Azazel]

Okay, I'm going to be asking some really simple stuff here.
Yesterday, I had only just found out that Pikachu's Side Special can be input like a Smash Attack to make it charge faster. This came as a huge surprise to me, because previously, I had thought it to be exclusive to Samus's missiles.

What other characters have moves like this, and what effects does doing this have on them?

Diddy Monkey flip, If you Smash input you go faster.

 

[Ixisnaugus]

Hi guys, I want to ask about shieldstun, the possible known formula that calculates it, and all of the potential variables or modifiers that contribute to it.

I've been doing some personal 60fps recordings and playing back the media frame by frame to try and find out generic values of numerous things, including the shieldstun given by various moves, but I've been getting varied, inconsistent results, to the point where I've ruled out many potential variables and am left completely confused and need help.
I had other local players help out by shielding and then releasing their shield input the moment an attack interacted with their shield, or at least try to.
The best example I have is of Fox's FTilt. I did multiple recordings on this once I started noticing inconsistencies, to reduce the possibility of human error as much as I could, but the results remained inconsistent, and the frame ranges are far too broad to ignore, and I do not believe that I'm the first person to notice this, so I must be missing something, right?

I counted the frames from the very first frame Fox's FTilt interacted with shield, up to the first frame the shield animation disappeared, and the 7 frames of shield drop lag began. The results I got ranged from 9 frames before the shield dropped - the lowest value I've gotten so far - up to 21 frames, the highest recorded value so far. I could not notice any consistencies at all with each subsequent attempt after the last. I'd get results in between these two numbers, such as 13 frames, 15, 16, 17, and in no particular order either. I recorded out of training mode, and at a point even SD'd after every attempt to fully reset any potential modifiers that could now be a factor, such as move decay.
I'm completely stumped. Is there something I'm missing about how shieldstun - or what I assume is shieldstun - is calculated? Is there perhaps some kind of buffering quirk with dropping shield that I'm not aware of? How can I be getting different results, and such broad ranges of frames as well. It is literally creating the difference between a move being safe on shield or unsafe. I can't believe that something this important has just gone unnoticed so I really think I'm missing something vital here, but I don't know what that is.

Just to reiterate, I've made multiple recordings of different moves, mostly Sonic and Fox's tilts, but I find it difficult to believe that this just so happens to be an isolated issue with only those two characters. I have not recorded any aerials on shield, though. Nevertheless I would really like some other opinions here because I am completely lost. I first only brought this up to Shaya some hours ago, but I believe now it's important enough to make a public post here. I do have my recordings on hand, so if need be I can send the files to others to try out for themselves, and I encourage anyone who can make their own recordings to test this themselves if they don't trust my recordings.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I don't know if this is related (since this seems to apply specifically when you DON'T shield a move), but shields have a minimum of 11 frames that they have to be up before you can start to drop them normally (by letting go of Shield, rather than canceling it with a jump). Again, as far as I know, this only applies if you put your shield up and you don't shield any attacks; you can drop it immediately after having blocked an attack (and, consequently, experienced shieldstun).

Maybe that is affected in a different way by multi-hit properties, or excessively weak hitboxes?

 

[Jaxas]

Hi guys, I want to ask about shieldstun, the possible known formula that calculates it, and all of the potential variables or modifiers that contribute to it.

I've been doing some personal 60fps recordings and playing back the media frame by frame to try and find out generic values of numerous things, including the shieldstun given by various moves, but I've been getting varied, inconsistent results, to the point where I've ruled out many potential variables and am left completely confused and need help.
I had other local players help out by shielding and then releasing their shield input the moment an attack interacted with their shield, or at least try to.
The best example I have is of Fox's FTilt. I did multiple recordings on this once I started noticing inconsistencies, to reduce the possibility of human error as much as I could, but the results remained inconsistent, and the frame ranges are far too broad to ignore, and I do not believe that I'm the first person to notice this, so I must be missing something, right?

I counted the frames from the very first frame Fox's FTilt interacted with shield, up to the first frame the shield animation disappeared, and the 7 frames of shield drop lag began. The results I got ranged from 9 frames before the shield dropped - the lowest value I've gotten so far - up to 21 frames, the highest recorded value so far. I could not notice any consistencies at all with each subsequent attempt after the last. I'd get results in between these two numbers, such as 13 frames, 15, 16, 17, and in no particular order either. I recorded out of training mode, and at a point even SD'd after every attempt to fully reset any potential modifiers that could now be a factor, such as move decay.
I'm completely stumped. Is there something I'm missing about how shieldstun - or what I assume is shieldstun - is calculated? Is there perhaps some kind of buffering quirk with dropping shield that I'm not aware of? How can I be getting different results, and such broad ranges of frames as well. It is literally creating the difference between a move being safe on shield or unsafe. I can't believe that something this important has just gone unnoticed so I really think I'm missing something vital here, but I don't know what that is.

Just to reiterate, I've made multiple recordings of different moves, mostly Sonic and Fox's tilts, but I find it difficult to believe that this just so happens to be an isolated issue with only those two characters. I have not recorded any aerials on shield, though. Nevertheless I would really like some other opinions here because I am completely lost. I first only brought this up to Shaya some hours ago, but I believe now it's important enough to make a public post here. I do have my recordings on hand, so if need be I can send the files to others to try out for themselves, and I encourage anyone who can make their own recordings to test this themselves if they don't trust my recordings.

Have you tried with shield-grab (count the frame the shield disappears) instead of just releasing shield?
I doubt it would change anything, but I know there's a set amount of time you're locked into shield if nothing hits it - perhaps that carries over somehow?

Completely guessing though; hopefully someone else knows more.

 

[Ixisnaugus]

I don't know if this is related (since this seems to apply specifically when you DON'T shield a move), but shields have a minimum of 11 frames that they have to be up before you can start to drop them normally (by letting go of Shield, rather than canceling it with a jump). Again, as far as I know, this only applies if you put your shield up and you don't shield any attacks; you can drop it immediately after having blocked an attack (and, consequently, experienced shieldstun).

Maybe that is affected in a different way by multi-hit properties, or excessively weak hitboxes?

Yea, I recall reading that shieldstun overrode the shield-lag, or the 7 frames of lag you're referring to once the shield button is released but the shield has not interacted with any damage boxes, before shield is completely dropped, and the lag from that drop begins. If this is the case, then it shouldn't be playing a role in the results I'm getting, as I'm hitting FTilt on shield every single time. Even if it did play a role, shouldn't it only create a difference of - at most - 7 frames, as the shield-lag begins on frame 4 and through to 11? The range of shieldstun I'm getting with my tests has a potential 12 frame difference. Just where could that be coming from?

The different damagebox theory was tested as well. We first thought that different damageboxes carried different values, and that was the culprit, but we checked frame data, and if shieldstun is determined by percentage, or what we believe the formula is currently, then we should have still gotten consistent results to prove that. One recording, we had Fox do the deepest possible FTilt multiple times to make sure different damageboxes or even different parts of one damagebox wasn't causing the fluctuations in total shieldstun frames, but nothing changed, there was still no consistency.

Have you tried with shield-grab (count the frame the shield disappears) instead of just releasing shield?
I doubt it would change anything, but I know there's a set amount of time you're locked into shield if nothing hits it - perhaps that carries over somehow?

Completely guessing though; hopefully someone else knows more.

I always tested this with dropping shield, not jumping, grabbing, or cancelling shield in any way.

 

[Big O]

@ Ixisnaugus What you can do to cut down on variance is to make sure they hold shield for a while before you Ftilt it or w/e. If you hit their shield on frames 5 in the 11 frame minimum shield duration for instance, you are going to get skewed values for shieldstun. It would wait an extra 6 frames after shieldstun before shield dropping in that scenario. The minimum shield duration is extended by shield hitlag, so if you shield at the wrong time the shield drop can be happen later than usual and several frames after shieldstun is already over.

I'm not sure what caused you to get such high variance, but I have to assume it is mostly due to human error at that point. Perhaps testing for jump OoS instead of just letting go of shield would give you more reliable results. I'd also suggest having the controller that is blocking have rumble on (more to react too).

 

[Ixisnaugus]

@ Ixisnaugus What you can do to cut down on variance is to make sure they hold shield for a while before you Ftilt it or w/e. If you hit their shield on frames 5 in the 11 frame minimum shield duration for instance, you are going to get skewed values for shieldstun. It would wait an extra 6 frames after shieldstun before shield dropping in that scenario. The minimum shield duration is extended by shield hitlag, so if you shield at the wrong time the shield drop can be happen later than usual and several frames after shieldstun is already over.

Ah, I think I understand that, but if I'm thinking correctly wouldn't this suggest that shieldstun doesn't in fact override shield-lag, because the shield-lag still exists and is getting stalled by shield hitlag? I counted on the assumption that shield-lag was completely replaced with shieldstun the moment a move first interacts with shield.

EDIT: Hang on, is each individual frame of shield-hitlag seperate from shieldstun and also minimum shield-lag?

 

[Big O]

Ah, I think I understand that, but if I'm thinking correctly wouldn't this suggest that shieldstun doesn't in fact override shield-lag, because the shield-lag still exists and is getting stalled by shield hitlag? I counted on the assumption that shield-lag was completely replaced with shieldstun the moment a move first interacts with shield.

EDIT: Hang on, is each individual frame of shield-hitlag seperate from shieldstun and also minimum shield-lag?

Yeah shield-hitlag, shieldstun, and "shield-lag" (I'm assuming you mean the 11 frame minimum duration) are all separate from each other and play out frame-by-frame in that order. The "shield-lag" is only replaced if you buffer something you can do while shielding like jump or grab.

 

[Ixisnaugus]

Yeah shield-hitlag, shieldstun, and "shield-lag" (I'm assuming you mean the 11 frame minimum duration) are all separate from each other and play out frame-by-frame in that order. The "shield-lag" is only replaced if you buffer something you can do while shielding like jump or grab.

Yea, by "shield-lag" I am referring to the 11 frame minimum shield duration, sorry for not making that clear.

So the theory I had in my mind was incorrect, and I should be testing by: having someone shield > wait out shield-lag duration > have them shield an attack > count out the shield-hitlag frames > count the shieldstun frames when shield-hitlag has ended > count the remaining frames when shield-drop has begun, assuming I had them release shield? Alternatively I could also just have them buffer a shield cancelling option like jump or grab instead of waiting out shield-lag, since shield cancelling options completely ignore shield-lag? Have I got this right?

 

[E.Lopez]

I'm not sure if this is the right thread to ask since I'm still somewhat new but...

I've been wondering about all the counter moves (down special for most characters) in this game and wanted to find some more information on them (aside from searching through specific characters' counter details) . But I was wondering if there is a comparison of all the counters in the game anywhere on this site? How long are they active, what can they counter (do all counters work against the same attacks, are there attacks you can't use counter against), and so forth?

 

[Lavani]

I'm not sure if this is the right thread to ask since I'm still somewhat new but...

I've been wondering about all the counter moves (down special for most characters) in this game and wanted to find some more information on them (aside from searching through specific characters' counter details) . But I was wondering if there is a comparison of all the counters in the game anywhere on this site? How long are they active, what can they counter (do all counters work against the same attacks, are there attacks you can't use counter against), and so forth?

I typed up a thing about this elsewhere:

Character | Counter Frames | Invincible | Minimum Damage | Damage Multiplier | KBG | BKB
Palutena | 10-31f | 10-16f | 10% | x1.3 | 75, 65 | 40, 20
Ike | 09-35f | 09-16f | 09% | x1.2 | 74 | 48
Greninja | 08-29f | 08-18f | 14%, 13%, or 11% | No scaling | 100, 72 | 62, 50
Marth/Lucina | 03-16f | No invuln | 08% | x1.2 | 60 | 90
Little Mac | 04-20f | No invuln | 10% | x1.3 | 50 | 90
Lucario | 05-39f | 05-39f | 11% | No scaling | 108 | 60
Shulk | 07-??f | No invuln | 13%, 10% or 7% | x1.3 | 94, 84, 84 | 70

Unblockable attacks (grabs, KO Punch, etc) aren't counterable, invuln frames on certain counters can protect the character from being hurt by these attacks.

 

[Jaxas]

I typed up a thing about this elsewhere:


Unblockable attacks (grabs, KO Punch, etc) aren't counterable, invuln frames on certain counters can protect the character from being hurt by these attacks.

Lucario not invulnerable? Are you positive? Back when I played him I dodged quite a few (...first attempt...) grabs with it, unless I'm just horribly mis-remembering.
And I know it was also Invulnerable back in Brawl thanks to one of my training partners.

 

[Lavani]

Lucario not invulnerable? Are you positive? Back when I played him I dodged quite a few (...first attempt...) grabs with it, unless I'm just horribly mis-remembering.
And I know it was also Invulnerable back in Brawl thanks to one of my training partners.

Thanks for reminding me, I forgot to check that one ingame. It looks different from other counters in MasterCore, so I wasn't sure, but I'm fairly certain I've seen it slip through grabs at the least.

EDIT: Definitely invincible for the same duration as its counter frames. Thanks for pointing that out!

 

[Shaya]

M/L are invincible from counter activation until the attack is out.

 

[Lavani]

I should probably clarify that the frames in the table are strictly for the counter stance, I haven't looked into invincibility on the actual counterattacks yet but I know Greninja has none and Shulk likely has none as well, as he can be hit between counter activation and before the counter hits.

Also worth noting that Shulk's counter is unblockable.

 

[AnchorTea]

I have a quick question...

Is there an AT out their that involves a sliding side tilt?

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

I have a quick question...

Is there an AT out their that involves a sliding side tilt?

Like a pivot?

 

[AnchorTea]

Like a pivot?

I guess?

 

[HeroMystic]

I guess?

You'll have to explain further what you mean. A pivot f-tilt is when you dash, and then F-tilt backwards which makes you doing a sliding tilt as what you're asking for.

There's also perfect pivot.

 

[AnchorTea]

You'll have to explain further what you mean. A pivot f-tilt is when you dash, and then F-tilt backwards which makes you doing a sliding tilt as what you're asking for.

There's also perfect pivot.

Sorta like that, except turning around from a sprint then f-tilting, which cancels the turning animation.

I've notice it benefits multiple characters.

 

[Donkeybutter]

Sorta like that, except turning around from a sprint then f-tilting, which cancels the turning animation.

I've notice it benefits multiple characters.

I think this might be what you're talking about, known as a "turnaround-cancel":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zumpzuCnG64

Then there's also this, which I've heard referred to as "skid-cancelling"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDQoxMARFMk#t=1m28s

 

[AnchorTea]

Not exactly what I was talking about. Somewhat close though.

It benefits many characters, but mainly Pit, Dark Pit, Lucario, and Mii Gunner.

It benefits PIt like crazy.

I can show a video example if you want me to.

 

[Donkeybutter]

Yea not exactly sure what you mean, you should post a video.

 

[NcamSB]

Can someone explain to me how to jab grab. I main pac man and at a tourney yesterday I seen some guy Jab, Jab, to grab but there was no lag in between the jab and the grab. How do you perform this?

 

[Azazel]

Not exactly what I was talking about. Somewhat close though.

It benefits many characters, but mainly Pit, Dark Pit, Lucario, and Mii Gunner.

It benefits PIt like crazy.

I can show a video example if you want me to.

This is not a new tech. It is just a turnaround cancel. You can immediately cancel the turnaround animation with Ftilt, Fsmash, and jump. In brawl you were only able to cancel it i with jump (Like for example RAR). It results in the move carrying your momentum as well

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Is teching confirmed to be more-or-less identical to Brawl? I imagine timings are often thrown off for people because the Shield buttons are light-press activated in Smash 4 instead of a full press; that used to be a problem for me with DACUSing in Project M for the same reason.

I have my X button set to Shield to do Roll Cancel Grabs more easily. Maybe I'll start using that to tech instead.

 

[Azazel]

Don't have to deal with that anymore; I turn Tap Jump off. Besides, I swear the input timing is tighter for non-fastfalled DAirs in Brawl than it is for non-double jump UAirs in Melee. Then again, I haven't played Melee in forever and never got particularly good at it, so it could just be confirmation bias. And I rarely ever do aerials without the C-stick anyway unless I'm using NAir.

Edit: But this is thoroughly off-topic, so let's get back to the part where trying to perform a wall infinite on someone pushes you back instead. I think that's a pretty cool change actually.

You can use this mechanic to do the opposite effect, instead of pushing you away, i brings you closer. Ness's Dtilt can hit some characters when ness is facing away from them. This makes the pushback on hit mechanic actually bring ness closer the victim. Try it on Lil mac or G & W (works on others but these are some off the top my head)

 

[Depth_]

What are the frames in which one is vulnerable during neutral ledge get up? Also, is there information on the power shield and tech window for this game?

 

[Brickbox]

Can anyone tell me if taking "magnifying glass" aka damage from being off screen gives you ledge invincibility if you have lost it after being trumped?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Can anyone tell me if taking "magnifying glass" aka damage from being off screen gives you ledge invincibility if you have lost it after being trumped?

While looking into this I found out something I didn't know. Apparently while you're in training mode, there is no magnifying glass damage.
But to answer your question, it would seem that the answer is no. No you don't get get ledge invincibility back by being hurt by the magnifying glass in-between ledge grabs (even though for example being blown up by your own Bomb does work).
I thought that this was weird, so I tested it with Fox's lazers too. I shot another Fox in between ledge grabs, and they didn't get their invincibility back. It would seem then that you only regain invincibility between ledge grabs (other than by hopping up on stage) by being put into hitstun, not by being damaged.

 

[thehard]

What's the best way to mash out of grabs/being buried? I've been told you're just supposed to rotate the control stick, nothing more?

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

What's the best way to mash out of grabs/being buried? I've been told you're just supposed to rotate the control stick, nothing more?

Yeah, you're supposed to rotate that control stick.