Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[Brickbox]

Yeah, you're supposed to rotate that control stick.

Nintendo I hurt my finger, send me a complimentary glove

 

[Ree301]

I'm pretty sure only left, right and A button inputs affect any capture states, like being buried as was stated. This would make sense from a game design stand point as being put in a Yoshi egg offstage or being inhaled by Kirby to suicide would be a lot more powerful, maybe too powerful, if your mashing led you to burn a jump with X/Y/up or fast fall accidentally.

On a side note, in melee you could mash proactively if you knew you'd be punished by a grab. As a result you'd break out almost instantly. Is that mechanic in Sm4sh?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'm pretty sure only left, right and A button inputs affect any capture states, like being buried as was stated. This would make sense from a game design stand point as being put in a Yoshi egg offstage or being inhaled by Kirby to suicide would be a lot more powerful, maybe too powerful, if your mashing led you to burn a jump with X/Y/up or fast fall accidentally.

On a side note, in melee you could mash proactively if you knew you'd be punished by a grab. As a result you'd break out almost instantly. Is that mechanic in Sm4sh?

Whaaaat? That would mean a whole lot if so, and would make sense from a "fairness" standpoint. That should be tested.

As the poster child for grab breaks in Brawl, I know something's different. I've been told that the game can only register one input of mashing per frame. Not sure if preemptive mashing still helps (it did in Brawl), but if it does, it feels like it helps a lot less.

 

[Pazx]

Most if not all inputs count as mashing from a grab, however only one is registered per frame. Not sure about eggs/burials/swallowing/etc. Tested in 1/4 speed training mode.

 

[popsofctown]

Most if not all inputs count as mashing from a grab, however only one is registered per frame. Not sure about eggs/burials/swallowing/etc. Tested in 1/4 speed training mode.

You can do 15 inputs a second?

 

[DanGR]

Does grab count as 2 inputs?

 

[popsofctown]

Does grab count as 2 inputs?

Presumably no, since grab ought to be a shield and A input on the same frame, and you can only have one input per frame.

Since "escapability" is described on an equipment, that suggest internally that there may be a variable describing a character's "escapability" as separate from that character's weight or damage so pretty much anything could be a variable in potential to break out of grabs.

 

[Dagon97]

Does using sheik's down b to vertically get back to the stage take longer than upbing to the ledge and does it cover more distance?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Presumably no, since grab ought to be a shield and A input on the same frame, and you can only have one input per frame.

Since "escapability" is described on an equipment, that suggest internally that there may be a variable describing a character's "escapability" as separate from that character's weight or damage so pretty much anything could be a variable in potential to break out of grabs.

Each input reduces the amount of time you'd be in a grabbed/captured/asleep state by x frames (I think it's 8? I could be wrong). My guess is that such equipment would add to x in that case.

 

[Shaya]

I feel like certain moves such as ZSS' paralyzer gun + down smash have inconsistent stun lengths that may have to do with certain inputs but I don't know.

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

What determines the distance an opponent slides away from you after breaking free of a grab in which they were pummeled? I feel like it's character specific. Am I wrong on that one?

Does anyone know the frame data for a broken grab? How soon can either party act after a broken grab?

 

[popsofctown]

Each input reduces the amount of time you'd be in a grabbed/captured/asleep state by x frames (I think it's 8? I could be wrong). My guess is that such equipment would add to x in that case.

Following up on this, I did a little testing, and this hunch isn't right. Vanilla attack equipment, Vanilla defense equipment, and Vanilla agility equipment didn't affect idle Fox's ability to break out of a grab at 130%, but improved escapability equipment did.
The escapability equipment affected grab, bury, paralyzer, and sleep, but not freeze, egg, K-inhale, or chomp.

I noticed that escapability's impact on idle Fox's reaction to Sleep was the most dramatic impact, by orders of magnitude. So it seems like maybe escapability equipment makes the game "mash" for you, since sleep has a higher mashing coefficient than grabs and burial? But Kirby does have a mashing coefficient, so it's weird that he would be an exception.

If it's an automasher with an exception hardcoded for Kirby, then it's not really a variable that we could speculate might be influenced by other factors. But if it reduces the base amount of time by a %, with a hardcoded bonus for escaping sleep, then it might maybe be affected by other factors somehow like lightweight, rage, crouching, swapping between helpless states (getting grabbed out of burial, is there some escapability value that isn't reset properly?), aura, or whatever.
But still probably not.

 

[Pazx]

What determines the distance an opponent slides away from you after breaking free of a grab in which they were pummeled? I feel like it's character specific. Am I wrong on that one?

Does anyone know the frame data for a broken grab? How soon can either party act after a broken grab?

Data can be found in the links below, before you ask, there are almost no grab-release followups.

Big grab release thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/grab-release-mega-thread-spoilers-almost-zero-combos.373720/

Everything frame data: http://smashboards.com/threads/comp...-every-character-now-with-ko-percents.383550/

 

[Akenero]

Is it me or can an Aerial Side B from Lucina be completed faster than on the ground?

 

[Lavani]

There are frames before the IASA on Lucario's jab1 and jab2 during which, if A is pressed, another jab1 is performed. I'm no longer able to record (rip camera) but it feels like it's about 3~5 frames before the jab IASA. Attempting to perform tilts or smashes still gives a jab, even trying to do a turnaround ftilt/fsmash performs another jab1 in the initial direction.

Also it has a glitchy side-effect where it keeps the aura graphics from the previous jab while adding another graphic on top of it, after several repetitions your sparse blue flames will have clumped up into a big blue aura ball.

I am unsure why there is an earlier window for jab1>jab1 and jab2>jab1 than other actions, is this present on other characters? Palutena's jab1>jab1 true combos about 20% earlier than jab1>dash attack does going off the training counter despite both being 7 frames (7f jab vs 1f dash+6f dash attack) so I get the feeling it might be.

EDIT: The normal IASA on jab1 occurs when Lucario's arm is reaching upward after the jab, the jab1>jab1 input is doable after Lucario's paw is above his shoulder. Also, this was on 3DS, in case it's different on Wii U.

 

[Shaya]

Is it me or can an Aerial Side B from Lucina be completed faster than on the ground?

Yeah this is known for both Marth and Lucina.
Their normal db1 is 45 frames while in the air it's 33.

Generally better to ask character specific questions in their respective boards though.

 

[Dre89]

Can someone confirm if Diddy's sideb popgun cancel has been removed from the game. My mate used to be able to do it perfectly but is saying it can't be done before. He even went back and imitated the inputs from the video but it still doesn't work anymore.

I asked the Diddy boards but the only one who actually tested it could only pull it off sparringly before, but now he can't get it. I hadn't learned how to do it, so I'm wondering if other people who could do it consistently can either test it or confirm it's been removed.

Thanks

 

[MrTeddyBear]

Can someone confirm if Diddy's sideb popgun cancel has been removed from the game. My mate used to be able to do it perfectly but is saying it can't be done before. He even went back and imitated the inputs from the video but it still doesn't work anymore.

I asked the Diddy boards but the only one who actually tested it could only pull it off sparringly before, but now he can't get it. I hadn't learned how to do it, so I'm wondering if other people who could do it consistently can either test it or confirm it's been removed.

Thanks

Yeah, it's been removed a long time ago in v1.0.4

 

[Dre89]

Yeah, it's been removed a long time ago in v1.0.4

No that's different. The sideb popgun cancel trick is where you sideb and immediately hold shield, then b reverse popgun. It cancels the popgun but gives you horizontal momentum as well. This was present in the game a day or two ago.

Someone on the Diddy boards tested it and said it's still in the game. Not sure why my mate can no longer do it though.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

There are frames before the IASA on Lucario's jab1 and jab2 during which, if A is pressed, another jab1 is performed. I'm no longer able to record (rip camera) but it feels like it's about 3~5 frames before the jab IASA. Attempting to perform tilts or smashes still gives a jab, even trying to do a turnaround ftilt/fsmash performs another jab1 in the initial direction.

Also it has a glitchy side-effect where it keeps the aura graphics from the previous jab while adding another graphic on top of it, after several repetitions your sparse blue flames will have clumped up into a big blue aura ball.

I am unsure why there is an earlier window for jab1>jab1 and jab2>jab1 than other actions, is this present on other characters? Palutena's jab1>jab1 true combos about 20% earlier than jab1>dash attack does going off the training counter despite both being 7 frames (7f jab vs 1f dash+6f dash attack) so I get the feeling it might be.

EDIT: The normal IASA on jab1 occurs when Lucario's arm is reaching upward after the jab, the jab1>jab1 input is doable after Lucario's paw is above his shoulder. Also, this was on 3DS, in case it's different on Wii U.

That's actually really interesting. I think wiff-fit may have a lesser version of it on her Jab 1 (like 1 frame - the very moment her hand returns to her hip, if you input a smash or a tilt you'll get another Jab 1) and there's a decent (and very obvious) one on her Jab 2 where you can do a Jab 1 well before the IASA frames. I didn't check all characters (so there may be more) but I don't believe Palutena has the Lucario thing.

 

[Delzethin]

So this is kind of embarrassing. I...uh...

Can't figure out how to Smash DI correctly. >_>

I've been getting caught in multi-hit attacks left and right and haven't been able to escape them even in situation where I should be. On top of it, I haven't found any guides anywhere on the boards. Can anyone explain for me?

 

[MrTeddyBear]

So this is kind of embarrassing. I...uh...

Can't figure out how to Smash DI correctly. >_>

I've been getting caught in multi-hit attacks left and right and haven't been able to escape them even in situation where I should be. On top of it, I haven't found any guides anywhere on the boards. Can anyone explain for me?

SDI got heavily nerfed from this game, so it isn't nearly as effective as it was in Brawl. Though you can still notice when you shift your position a little bit, just tap the control stick in the direction that you want to go when you get caught in a multi-hit and you will see.

 

[Delzethin]

SDI got heavily nerfed from this game, so it isn't nearly as effective as it was in Brawl. Though you can still notice when you shift your position a little bit, just tap the control stick in the direction that you want to go when you get caught in a multi-hit and you will see.

So do you have to tap it in that direction at the exact moment of each hit?

 

[MrTeddyBear]

So do you have to tap it in that direction at the exact moment of each hit?

Pretty much, wiggling it back and forth is the best way to do it, or depending on the move you could hold the direction away from the attack and escape; it works with most multi-hit jabs.

 

[LimitCrown]

I was trying to determine how much crouch-cancelling affected knockback. In order to do this, I used Fox's down tilt attack because the sourspot of the attack launches opponents at a 90-degree angle. Mario is also the target of the attack.

In training mode, I hit Mario with the attack while he had 120% damage. Next, I compared this with Mario getting hit while he has higher amounts of damage while using the crouch-cancelling technique in order to find a damage percentage that would cause Mario to be launched at a similar trajectory; hitting Mario at 154% damage while using the crouch cancel technique seems to have the most similar trajectory. In Melee, it seems that the knockback multiplier was a proper fraction, being 2/3x. If the knockback multiplier for the crouch cancel technique in this game is also a proper fraction, then the value of the multiplier is most likely 6/7x.

Another thing that I've noticed about the technique is that it also reduces the amount of freeze frames that the target sustains, which is how the technique functioned in Brawl. This time, it appears that the freeze frames sustained by the target is reduced to 1/2 of the amount if the target crouch cancels.

These are my estimations of how much crouch-cancelling affects the knockback and the freeze frames caused by an attack. I wasn't sure about whether this was the best place to post these observations.

 

[Azazel]

That's actually really interesting. I think wiff-fit may have a lesser version of it on her Jab 1 (like 1 frame - the very moment her hand returns to her hip, if you input a smash or a tilt you'll get another Jab 1) and there's a decent (and very obvious) one on her Jab 2 where you can do a Jab 1 well before the IASA frames. I didn't check all characters (so there may be more) but I don't believe Palutena has the Lucario thing.

Diddy has a very noticable one as well it gets to teh point where i get stuck doing jab 1 & 2 repetitively and it is frustrating.

 

[Dre89]

I think Nintendo may start ninja patching certain techs. My friend and I are almost convinced that Diddy's sideb popgun cancel has been patched out, as it went from being easy to do every single time to being borderline impossible with the same inputs. I then asked people on the Diddy boards and they seem unable to do it now too.

 

[Deleted member]

I've been practicing perfect pivoting and I'm coming across two problems. Most of the time when I do it, I don't move and stay in place, whereas this guy in this video can move across the stage while doing it.

Another problem I'm having is that whenever I do pin it down correctly, I can never get the tilt attack out, all I get is a dash attack. I've been practicing this in training mode since last night and so far, I've only gotten a tilt out like 3-4 times, although I can get grabs almost perfectly. I just recently switched my C-Stick to tilts by the way. Can someone help me and tell me what I'm doing wrong? Would really love to implement this into my gameplay. Perhaps someone can join me online and teach me how to do it the right way?

Edit: I think I've figured it out, just have to keep practicing it. The timing on this is actually very strict, haha.

 

[Azazel]

I think Nintendo may start ninja patching certain techs. My friend and I are almost convinced that Diddy's sideb popgun cancel has been patched out, as it went from being easy to do every single time to being borderline impossible with the same inputs. I then asked people on the Diddy boards and they seem unable to do it now too.

Just did it multiple times super easy. Didn't even need to do Hold Shield before hand. It's actually a super easy tech. I can make a vid just me showing off if ya really need confirmation, but it seriously isn't that hard it is only B-reversing and holding shield.

 

[Dre89]

Just did it multiple times super easy. Didn't even need to do Hold Shield before hand. It's actually a super easy tech. I can make a vid just me showing off if ya really need confirmation, but it seriously isn't that hard it is only B-reversing and holding shield.

How are you cancelling the popgun without holding shield during the sideb

And yeah a vid would be greatly appreciated thanks

 

[Azazel]

How are you cancelling the popgun without holding shield during the sideb

And yeah a vid would be greatly appreciated thanks

They reason you airdodge is because it is buffered. Buffering is a 9 frame window. The startup frames of peanut gun are more than 10 frames. If you press b and hold shield before the buffering window you don't airdodge.

 

[Dre89]

They reason you airdodge is because it is buffered. Buffering is a 9 frame window. The startup frames of peanut gun are more than 10 frames. If you press b and hold shield before the buffering window you don't airdodge.

I'm not airdodging. My friend and I can b reverse the popgun and get the momentum after the sideb just fine. The problem is that the popgun isn't cancelling, it's still still shooting the peanut.

We were able to get it every single time then one day it just became impossible. One or two other people from the Diddy boards have had the same issue too.

Edit- I think you're talking about the wrong tech. I'm not talking about simply popgun cancelling and b reversing it. I'm talking about the sideb popgun cancel. The sideb popgun cancel is when you sideb, then immediately hold shield then b reverse popgun so you cancel the popgun and reverse your momentum.

It's demonstrated in this video at around 1: 50
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igJDgsio8Rg

 

[Azazel]

I'm not airdodging. My friend and I can b reverse the popgun and get the momentum after the sideb just fine. The problem is that the popgun isn't cancelling, it's still still shooting the peanut.

We were able to get it every single time then one day it just became impossible. One or two other people from the Diddy boards have had the same issue too.

Hold B. you can only cancel the popgun when you are charging it

 

[Dre89]

Hold B. you can only cancel the popgun when you are charging it

Read my edit, you're talking about the wrong tech. And no that's not true, you can cancel the popgun into another popgun by double tapping it. You can do it multiple times too. You can even cancel it this way into other special moves.

 

[Azazel]

Read my edit, you're talking about the wrong tech

First of all, it is still in the game was smashing just a moment ago.

• Monkey Flip > B-reversal
• B-reversed popgun cancel

Monkey Flip to b-reversal it a simply strat. You momentum shift your increased airspeed. Diddy's Down-B and Neutral-B can be B-reversed can conserve Diddy's momentum. Although after you cancel peanut gun Diddy loses his Increased airspeed, but if you cancel the peanut gun just after you land, woo hoo. charging peanut gun while on the ground makes Diddy decelerate faster so this is why i say just after you touch the ground

Seeing as you can Still B-reverse Peanut popgun and cancel it + Monkey Flip still grants increased airspeed. I don't see why you consider it a completely different tech.

 

[LimitCrown]

If there was another update that removed certain techniques or exploits, then your replays would need to be deleted. I doubt that any changes to the game were made recently.

 

[Dre89]

First of all, it is still in the game was smashing just a moment ago.

• Monkey Flip > B-reversal
• B-reversed popgun cancel

Monkey Flip to b-reversal it a simply strat. You momentum shift your increased airspeed. Diddy's Down-B and Neutral-B can be B-reversed can conserve Diddy's momentum.

Seeing as you can Still B-reverse Peanut popgun and cancel it + Monkey Flip still grants increased airspeed. I don't see why you consider it a completely different tech.

No see I know now you're not doing what I'm talking about. I just did a sideb into a standard b-reversed popgun cancel and it doesn't reverse your momentum, making it practically useless.

That's why the sideb popgun cancel is a separate tech, because if you don't hold shield during the sideb you don't get the reversed momentum. But it looks like it's been patched out now.

 

[Azazel]

No see I know now you're not doing what I'm talking about. I just did a sideb into a standard b-reversed popgun cancel and it doesn't reverse your momentum, making it practically useless.

That's why the sideb popgun cancel is a separate tech, because if you don't hold shield during the sideb you don't get the reversed momentum. But it looks like it's been patched out now.

You do know the difference between a turnaround special and B-reversed special, right? B-reversed special generally always shifts your momentum. Holding shield has nothing to do with shifting your momentum, it is simply a method of canceling peanut popgun easier. B-reverse the peanut popgun.

 

[Dre89]

You do know the difference between a turnaround special and B-reversed special, right? B-reversed special generally always shifts your momentum. Holding shield has nothing to do with shifting your momentum, it is simply a method of canceling peanut popgun easier. B-reverse the peanut popgun.

Ahk cheers I got it now. We weren't holding B down, then when I did start holding B I was doing turn arounds instead of reverses, Thanks heaps.

 

[Azazel]

Ahk cheers I got it now. We weren't holding B down, then when I did start holding B I was doing turn arounds instead of reverses, Thanks heaps.

Here's the video that was orignally meant to basically poke fun at magical ninja patches.