Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[Ayce God]

has anyone ever experienced a bug with the wii u GameCube adapter, that when you switch your c stick from smash attack to regular attack, it causes the c stick not to function properly?
for example if you're standing in place and flick the c stick in any direction, the move will come out less than half the time.
also after you've been hit, you can't immediatly use the c stick you have to jump first, then the c stick will function properly.
I tested it out and found that's it's not the GameCube controller that's the problem and it ONLY happens when I play with the tag, that has my c stick mapped to regular attack. is there any way to fix this or has anyone else experienced this problem ?

 

[Wilyen]

is there a list of all the advanced techniques found in smash 4 so far.

 

[Wilyen]

 

[Donkeybutter]

I've been doing some shieldstun stuff and I think some people would be interested in what I have so far. For moves that are not projectiles with 1.0x Hitlag Modifiers and non-electric elements, I obtained the following values for shieldstun. From what I can tell it is very similar to Brawl's shieldstun, but moves with higher damage seem to have a bit more.

Damage | Shieldstun
1-4 | 1
5-7 | 2
8-10 | 3
11-12 | 4
13 | 5
16-17 | 6
18 | 7
21 | 8
24 | 9
28 | 10
30 | 11

Interesting, so it's possible that the shieldstun in Smash 4 is actually more than Brawl?

Do you happen to know what the shieldstun formula is for Brawl, or at least what the comparable shieldstun frames would be in Brawl for the damage amounts on this Smash 4 table?

On the ssbwiki shieldstun page, it only lists the shieldstun formula for Melee, saying:

"In Melee, the formula for frames of shieldstun is (X + 4.45)/2.235) rounded down, where X is the amount of damage the attack would deal if it was unshielded."

 

[Yams Everywhere]

Recently, I've been practicing ledge trumping to level up my game play. I can't seem to consistently ledge trump even in training mode, let alone an actual match. What exactly are the inputs people use to ledge trump?

 

[M15t3R E]

Recently, I've been practicing ledge trumping to level up my game play. I can't seem to consistently ledge trump even in training mode, let alone an actual match. What exactly are the inputs people use to ledge trump?

It is just grabbing the edge while the opponent is holding onto it, which pushes off your opponent.

 

[Yams Everywhere]

I think you misunderstood my question. I want the most optimal way to grab ledge in this game without having to short hop onto it. In melee, you can wavedash onto ledge. In brawl, you had to run slightly past ledge and then turn to grab it. I want to know the most optimal way to grab it in this game.

 

[hey_there]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rF-9Xyi_a2o

Hope this helps!

 

[Heleno]

youtube.com/watch?v=aQj-yakgh6M
since we are discussing ledge options... this one is quite interesting.
EDIT: sorry - the forum wouldn't allow me to post links.

 

[Pazx]

I think you misunderstood my question. I want the most optimal way to grab ledge in this game without having to short hop onto it. In melee, you can wavedash onto ledge. In brawl, you had to run slightly past ledge and then turn to grab it. I want to know the most optimal way to grab it in this game.

it's pretty similar to Brawl, watch the video that was posted but you have to remember you can't grab onto a ledge if you're holding the control stick down. Input the fast fall and then let go immediately.

 

[Tristan_win]

While I was testing for rage I found that the differences between the killing % with no rage and the killing % with rage is not the same for each individual character

Tipper bair
0% Sheik 88% Rosalina
100% Sheik 77% Rosalina
Difference 11
0% Sheik 113% Boswer
100% Sheik 98% Boswer
Difference 15
0% Sheik 94% Diddy kong
100% Sheik 81% Diddy Kong
Difference 13
Tipper usmash
0% Sheik 83% Rosalina
100% Sheik 70% Rosalina
Difference 13
0% Sheik 108% Boswer
100% sheik 92% Boswer
Difference 16
0% Sheik 96 Diddy Kong
100% Sheik 83 Diddy Kong
Difference 13

Thoughts?

 

[GotEmCoach]

I think you misunderstood my question. I want the most optimal way to grab ledge in this game without having to short hop onto it. In melee, you can wavedash onto ledge. In brawl, you had to run slightly past ledge and then turn to grab it. I want to know the most optimal way to grab it in this game.

Hi If you pivot. and sh you will. carry your momentum grab the ledge u can also retreat into a Foward air i discovered this tech 2months ago just found no use for it l using dash dance andthe pivot SH ill name it pivot dipping

 

[GotEmCoach]

sorry for bad english

 

[Big O]

Interesting, so it's possible that the shieldstun in Smash 4 is actually more than Brawl?

Do you happen to know what the shieldstun formula is for Brawl, or at least what the comparable shieldstun frames would be in Brawl for the damage amounts on this Smash 4 table?

On the ssbwiki shieldstun page, it only lists the shieldstun formula for Melee, saying:

"In Melee, the formula for frames of shieldstun is (X + 4.45)/2.235) rounded down, where X is the amount of damage the attack would deal if it was unshielded."

I don't know the exact formula off the top of my head (I think X/3 rounded down is pretty close), but I do know that at 11 damage moves had 3 frames of shieldstun and 14 damage had 4 frames of shieldstun in Brawl. A safe guess would be that shieldstun scales slightly better with damage in Smash 4.

 

[Solo Popo]

Is there any concrete data on how DI/SDI function yet? How about info on stale move negation, besides this video? I'm particularly interested in knockback scaling, but any information on the general topic should certainly come in handy.

Is it just me, or does Link's dair end faster if you manage to get both hits off? It seems that you're free to act again shortly after the second hit, regardless of the amount of lag you would've had.

Actually, normal moves seem much quirkier in general than they were before. I've gotten Link's dair to deal 18 on the first hit instead of 15, but if it's a sweetspot, then it's a tough one for me to land consistently. Same goes for the trips on Pikachu's fair and down tilt. I'm not sure if this game just has tight sweetspots, or if there's something else going on. I certainly can't play as well on the 2ds as I could on a Gamecube controller.

I mained link in Melee and Brawl. I briefly played Link in Smash bros Wii U with the wii remote. My impression of the game thus far is that it is overall quicker, and it seems that they have attempted to implement things that used to be "advanced techniques" as bread and butter techniques without all the difficult input execution. This could be a negative or a positive thing. It depends on whether this will restrict or broaden the potential to play in unique and unexpected ways. I can see it going either way. This is my impression based on my limited experience with the game thus far.

But if I recall, my first impression of Brawl was WAY off, as was everyone else's.

 

[Tagxy]

@ Shaya @ TheReflexWonder do you know what the iasa's are for the various ledge get up options? I saw it somewhere I swear but can't find after looking awhile .

 

[TheReflexWonder]

@ Shaya @ TheReflexWonder do you know what the iasa's are for the various ledge get up options? I saw it somewhere I swear but can't find after looking awhile .

It varies between characters, but my estimate is an average of ~12 for Ledge Jump, ~32 for Ledge Climb, ~42 for Ledge Attack (with the attack hitting at ~22), and ~50 for Ledge Roll. That's doesn't help nearly as much as exact numbers, but it's a starting point, right?

 

[Azazel]

I think you misunderstood my question. I want the most optimal way to grab ledge in this game without having to short hop onto it. In melee, you can wavedash onto ledge. In brawl, you had to run slightly past ledge and then turn to grab it. I want to know the most optimal way to grab it in this game.

Be near ledge, Tap off > fastfall > Drift towards stage. You can just to a quick Semi-circle.

It's much more strict with fastfallers than with floatys. Pratice with someone like Luigi or something.

 

[Yikarur]

It varies between characters, but my estimate is an average of ~12 for Ledge Jump, ~32 for Ledge Climb, ~42 for Ledge Attack (with the attack hitting at ~22), and ~50 for Ledge Roll. That's doesn't help nearly as much as exact numbers, but it's a starting point, right?

Yoshis Ledge Get-up has 33, Ledge Roll has 49. Get-up Attack have 62.
Your guessed well overall

 

[CarbuncleHero]

EDIT: Pikachu's new aerial landing animation frames are as follows:
Nair:f1-12, act on frame 13
Fair:f1-8, 9
Bair:f1-15, 16
Uair:f1-12, 13

Each move has 2 frames less landing lag, excluding uair which has 1 frame less. The 1.04 data for uair could have been an error on my part though, I tested these very carefully however. I didn't test dair mostly because I thought it was irrelevant in 1.04 so someone else will have to test that one.

The 1.05 patch shortened pikachu's ending frames. I'm certain, but I just need it to be verified.
I saw earlier that someone felt like falco's lasers were shorter so the ending frames of other moves might need to be tested too...

 

[eskimo]

Ok, apparently this was already known as JCUS, so nvm!

 

[Chiroz]

This is named Jump Cancelled Up Smash or JCUS. It's been known from previous games.

 

[Azazel]

Training mode doesn't accurately handle Grab releases.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

While I was testing for rage I found that the differences between the killing % with no rage and the killing % with rage is not the same for each individual character

Thoughts?

Weight class? You don't mention anything about your test that suggests you are aware that a character's weight affects how far they are knocked back. It would certainly explain why the difference is smallest with Rosalina, the lightest of the subjects. She needs the least amount of damage to be killed in the first place.

 

[RBreadsticks]

Is there a video or article anywhere that goes into wall teching. It seems I can only get it to work at a 50/50 rate.

 

[BBC7]

If you drop off a platform and use a stall-then-fall move, then you remain on the platform that you are currently on while using the move. I tested this with every character that has a stall-then-fall move to see if anything practical can be done with it. I'll call it Platform Stabbing for now.

Bowser - No practical use for Down B or Dair.
Yoshi - No practical use for Down B.
Mr. Game & Watch - Can consistently stab large and medium sized characters with Dair for 11%-14% damage depending on
percentage of opponent, and can spike at higher percents as well as combo into moves such as sourspot F-Smash,
sourspot D-Smash, or Judge. No practical use against small characters.
Sheik - Can inconsistently stab large characters with Dair for 8% damage. No practical use against medium
or small characters.
Ganondorf - Cancels Down B lag before Ganondorf proceeds to fall through the platform. Appears to be a single loud stomp.
Does no damage and appears to have no practical use.
Toon Link - Can consistently stab large characters with Dair for 16%. For medium characters, Toon Link stabs with a oddly
powerful windbox that does 0% but can kill at around 300%-350%, and this windbox can inconstintently hit large characters
as well. No practical use against small characters.
Zero Suit Samus - No practical use for Dair.
Kirby - Down B does not exhibit this behavior despite being a stall-then-fall move.
Greninja - Can consistently stab large characters with Dair at higher percents for 8% and a spike that can help combo
into F-Tilt or F-Smash. No practical use against medium or small characters.
Captain Falcon - Down B does not exhibit this behavior despite being a stall-then-fall move.
Sonic - No practical use for Dair.

As you can see, it's only Mr. Game & Watch, Toon Link, and Greninja that get anything out of dropping off a platform and doing a stall-then-fall move. I actually find Toon Link's windbox stab to be rather odd since his regular windbox is not powerful enough to kill at 300%. I used Dedede as an example of a large character, Mario as an example of a medium character, and Kirby as an example of a small character. I used the twin platforms at Battlefield to test this.

EDIT: I heard that Ganondorf's Down B can in fact platform stab, but I haven't been able to recreate it.

 

[Judo777]

While I was testing for rage I found that the differences between the killing % with no rage and the killing % with rage is not the same for each individual character

Tipper bair
0% Sheik 88% Rosalina
100% Sheik 77% Rosalina
Difference 11
0% Sheik 113% Boswer
100% Sheik 98% Boswer
Difference 15
0% Sheik 94% Diddy kong
100% Sheik 81% Diddy Kong
Difference 13
Tipper usmash
0% Sheik 83% Rosalina
100% Sheik 70% Rosalina
Difference 13
0% Sheik 108% Boswer
100% sheik 92% Boswer
Difference 16
0% Sheik 96 Diddy Kong
100% Sheik 83 Diddy Kong
Difference 13

Thoughts?

This greatly upsets me lol. I was so optimistic when i heard rage had concrete levels (like simply 3 tho i never confirmed). Now its exponentially more complicated........

 

[LucinaNab1]

Did anyone ever mention a way you can roll out of dashing? I was just messing around with dashing just now, and I found that if you quickly double tap dash input instead of just pushing once and holding, then immediately follow that with shield, you will roll instead of dashing into shield. It has more range than a normal neutral roll, and can be used to confuse your opponent as they will think you were dashing.

This seems to work with all characters, so I decided to search the forum for advanced techniques and post here instead of in any individual character's thread. There is another aspect to this though, that does have differences depending on character. Not only can you roll out of a double tapped dash, you can also grab out of it, and if you input it fast enough, it will look like you threw out a far-reaching grab from a neutral stance. This effectively increases your neutral grab range, and it only shows the first few frames of the dash, without making the distinct stepping sound that would indicate a dash being done. I was testing this with Lucina. I also tested it with Captain Falcon, and he seems to have a greater reach for the grab than Lucina has.

 

[Shaya]

What you've just described.
1. One of the options you can do during a dash. There are many. Rolling is indeed one of them
2. You also just described dash grabbing, an animation/move that exists for all characters.

 

[LucinaNab1]

This probably isn't much of an advanced tech, but if you cancel a short hop with a counter, you slide forward or back in counter stance quite a bit without actually jumping much at all. Good for pushing yourself into hits you know will land.

 

[Tagxy]

@ Shaya @ TheReflexWonder You guys can tear this part. This was partly inspired by Reflex's work. This also might be something more useful for pikachu or specific characters but Im not sure yet:

Putting out something Ive been using for awhile. This is a movement option along the ground, this may have been something known or an old brawl tech but its very underutilized. I experimented a lot with ground options because being able to utilize tilts to their max effectiveness is extremely beneficial to small characters and those with strong tilts.

I call this a minifox [mini-foxtrot] for the sake of convenience (dont really care about the name). As we know a fox-trot commits you to a set length of distance and time before youre allowed to perform certain actions. For me the distance was more annoying then the time commitment since it became difficult to space properly.

In any case, one thing I found is the strength and duration of the dash input has a minor affect on the distance of this initial dash, which on its own is useful. Additionally, a reverse dash input (dash dance input) can consume some or virtually all of the initial distance of a fox-trot, also depending on the strength and duration (timing) of the dash inputs. Effectively this allows you much greater variation in your spacing from a fox-trot. Its particularly useful if you have a good dash, with dtilt and the smaller your frame decreases during dash/crouch.

The other reason this is useful is that the inputs and animation are the same as a dash dance, with the only variation occurring in the timing and strength of inputs. I find this important because Perfect Pivoting and Sm4sh Dash Dance share the same animation and inputs, effectively allowing you to use all 3 to space along the ground from between the range of your characters perfect pivot behind you to the length of their longest fox trot. I find that it makes dashing along the ground and use of tilts much more useful.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

So what you're describing is that pressing a directional input at less than full tilt causes you to go a shorter distance in an initial dash? I'm trying to make sure I understand what you're saying.

 

[Tagxy]

So what you're describing is that pressing a directional input at less than full tilt causes you to go a shorter distance in an initial dash? I'm trying to make sure I understand what you're saying.

There was 2 things, I think that accurately describes the first point.

1)You can vary the longer length of your initial dash based on how hard/fast you do the input. I want to say the variation is the range between 3 and 4 pikas.
2) The more important one imo is if you input a quick dash in the opposite direction first, then do a fox-trot/initial dash input in the direction you wanted it cuts down on the length of your initial dash. The variation is anywhere between almost going nowhere to the full fox trot distance.

Its a bit hard to describe the hand motions but its not hard to do (easier then Perfect Pivoting). And again Im also not sure if this was known but Ive been finding it pretty useful.

Gonna try to do what I can to make an image of this.

Situation #1
| = starting position
_ = deadzone can't react through this area
.... = Foxtrot distance variation depending on force/speed of input

| _ _ _ _ _...

Situation #2

| = starting position
, = rough input for fox trot
X = full length of fox trot
... = Distance varation from the mini fox trot.

,,,|............X

Directions:
-From the starting position press left
-At one of the ,'s input a fox trot right

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'll try to play around with it some this weekend. Could definitely be worth bringing into the limelight.

 

[Xygonn]

I've noticed there is some sort of generic tripping mechanic for moves with NO trip probability. With Samus, jab 1 will trip my opponent fairly often around 100%. However, if you look at the frame data there is no trip probability. Is there some understanding of how these trips happen?

 

[TheSMASHtyke]

So I'm not sure if anyone's picked up on this, but I figured I share it here. It seems you can combine a jump cancelled up smash with a RAR to do a reverse jump canceled Up Smash. A quick skim of google and smashboards didn't show anything so I thought this was worth sharing

With the inputs you can dash forward and do a reverse jump cancelled Up Smash. This seems like it's really useful for characters who have an Up Smash that comes out / has longer range behind them like Mario, Luigi, Wario, Doc, and G&W.

 

[busken]

Does Power shield canceling still work in this game?

 

[Claire Diviner]

I've noticed there is some sort of generic tripping mechanic for moves with NO trip probability. With Samus, jab 1 will trip my opponent fairly often around 100%. However, if you look at the frame data there is no trip probability. Is there some understanding of how these trips happen?

Maybe the frame data in Smash 4 differs from the ones used in Brawl? That, or perhaps when a jab lands on a character at a certain % threshold, it could cause a trip with a varying chance? Do we know for sure that trip probablility are non existent in these moves, like Samus' jab?

 

[Xygonn]

Maybe the frame data in Smash 4 differs from the ones used in Brawl? That, or perhaps when a jab lands on a character at a certain % threshold, it could cause a trip with a varying chance? Do we know for sure that trip probablility are non existent in these moves, like Samus' jab?

It's the default setting as on most hits. 0x0
In the Samus sub forum @ChoZoX has some videos of the random tripping on lots of moves. Kayjay has one of a jab trip during a match. We don't know what it is for sure. I figure when you hit the ground in hit stun but not hard enough to tech/bounce there is a random trip chance.

 

[Lavani]

There's an 10(?)% chance to trip when attacks don't lift you off the ground. This existed in Brawl as well.