Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[Vipermoon]

Good stuff. And the enormous kill percent difference can be explained by the low knockback growth which doesn't recover the angle/knockback reduction quickly enough with rising percents.

I bet this differs greatly between characters. Do they say what character was used?

 

[Sonicninja115]

So that would cause people to live 10% later?

 

[Lavani]

Do they say what character was used?

Sheik's name is mentioned in the image.

EDIT: It also mentions Rosalina being at max rage for this.

 

[Jams.]

Random tidbit of information that I don't think was explicitly mentioned (though Lavani implied this).

DI can adjust the knockback angle of a move by up to 10 degrees.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Vipermoon]

Is it 20° in other games? That's what it seems like.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV2xTqIf_yg

Here's a video on item priority and projectile priority and trample

Love me

 

[Kofu]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV2xTqIf_yg

Here's a video on item priority and projectile priority and trample

Love me

That voiceover

"Radical Larry would be proud"

Also you called it trample gg

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Taking advantage of the inability to buffer ledge jumps:

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Because of the inability to buffer during ledge jump and the fact that inputs always happen on the next frame, I theorise that there's always 1 frame of vulnerability even on characters with frame 1 invulnerability moves.

 

[Lavani]

Nah, you can still go from ledge jump to a 1f invuln move without any gaps. It's just hard without buffering. I did some testing on this with ledge jump Mac upB awhile ago.

 

[Yikarur]

Because of the inability to buffer during ledge jump and the fact that inputs always happen on the next frame, I theorise that there's always 1 frame of vulnerability even on characters with frame 1 invulnerability moves.

nope ! You can be full invincible if timed correctly. Wouldn't make sense otherwise. If Melee would work that way Melee would be very clunky.

E: Lavaninja'd

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Hmm interesting, that means that you'd have to input the move on the final frame of the animation. Say you have a jump with an FAF of 13, you need to input the frame 1 intangible move on frame 12 for it to come out properly.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'll fix that description in my video, then.

 

[Masonomace]

Interesting. .I was doing some frame skipping stuff for LedgeJump earlier today, actually, & came to the weird result that Shulk doing LedgeJump & acting on frame 16 can only input an aerial or special attack. On frame 17 however, Shulk can input a doublejump or airdodge. Idk why but it's like that & it's super weird.

I'll test Duck Hunt Dog & Palutena & see what I notice.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Broken

 

[Masonomace]

Okay, so for Shulk & Duck Hunt's LedgeJump with frame skipping:

• Paused on frame 15, they can buffer any aerial or any special (except Monado arts)
• On frame 16, the buffered aerial or special (except Monado arts) will be frame 1, but they cannot input a doublejump or airdodge
  
• Paused on frame 17, it's frame 2 of the aerial or special (except Monado arts). Additionally, they can buffer doublejump or airdodge
• On frame 18, the buffered doublejump or airdodge will be frame 1
  
• On frame 19, it's frame 2 of the doublejump or airdodge

And for Palutena's LedgeJump with frame skipping:

• Paused on frame 16, she can buffer any aerial or any special
• On frame 17, the buffered aerial or special will be frame 1, but she cannot input a doublejump or airdodge
• Paused on frame 18, it's frame 2 of the aerial or special. Additionally, she can buffer doublejump or airdodge
• On frame 19, the buffered doublejump or airdodge will be frame 1
• Paused on frame 20, it's frame 2 of the doublejump or airdodge

If anything seems off, lemme know / ask away. 'Cus this is weird buffering for a simple ledge option.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I checked Link. The first frame of an aerial or special can come out on frame 13 of a ledge jump; to do this you must pause on frame 12 (pausing on frame 11 won't won't).
Then, the first frame of airdodge and DJ can come out on frame 15, but you're actually allowed to pause on frame 13 instead of 14 as you might expect (pausing on frame 12 won't work). From frame 13, a two frame skip with the input held will leave you paused on frame 15 looking at the first frame of the airdodge/DJ. In other words, while the airdodge/DJ will come out 2 frames later than the earliest possible frame for an aerial/special, there is in fact a slight buffer window XD.

Now to double check the other findings..

Okay, so for Shulk & Duck Hunt's LedgeJump with frame skipping:

• Paused on frame 15, they can buffer any aerial or any special (except Monado arts)
• On frame 16, the buffered aerial or special (except Monado arts) will be frame 1, but they cannot input a doublejump or airdodge
  
• Paused on frame 17, it's frame 2 of the aerial or special (except Monado arts). Additionally, they can buffer doublejump or airdodge
• On frame 18, the buffered doublejump or airdodge will be frame 1
  
• On frame 19, it's frame 2 of the doublejump or airdodge

And for Palutena's LedgeJump with frame skipping:

• Paused on frame 16, she can buffer any aerial or any special
• On frame 17, the buffered aerial or special will be frame 1, but she cannot input a doublejump or airdodge
• Paused on frame 18, it's frame 2 of the aerial or special. Additionally, she can buffer doublejump or airdodge
• On frame 19, the buffered doublejump or airdodge will be frame 1
• Paused on frame 20, it's frame 2 of the doublejump or airdodge

If anything seems off, lemme know / ask away. 'Cus this is weird buffering for a simple ledge option.

Yeah.. as I suspected. You're slightly off. The same thing I noted earlier about being able to slightly buffer the airdodge/DJ holds true for Shulk too (and I'd wager the others as well). I am able to pause on frame 16, input the airdodge/DJ, skip forward two frames and have the first frame of the airdodge/DJ come out on frame 18.

 

[Green Spiny]

Speaking of all this frame data and buffering, I have a mechanics question. :x

How long is the window to press a direction and A to perform as smash attack?

I ask because, say your F-Tilt comes out on frame 8. If you press Left and A at the same time, you'll perform a forward smash. So the move couldn't ever come out on frame 8 unless it was buffered or you were already holding Left. If the window for smashes is only 1 frame, it would come out on frame 9... but is it 1 frame, or more?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

4 frames

 

[Green Spiny]

4 frames

Good to know. Thanks!

 

[Vipermoon]

This is why tilt stick

 

[Shaya]

Moved latest untechable reel animation stuff to a new thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/untechable-reel-animations.439039/

 

[Nysyr]

So random thought I had, If some of the rapid pummels are so fast that the buffering will cause pummels to not unstale other moves... would inputting B inbetween the A inputs cause this to not be the case? This of course is assuming anything other than A is bufferable during a pummel..

I have no means of testing this, sadly.

 

[Lavani]

Randomly noticed while talking about tripping with some people that Falco's blaster doesn't trip, despite the Sakurai angle. Is there a minimum amount of knockback needed for 0° tripping or something?

So random thought I had, If some of the rapid pummels are so fast that the buffering will cause pummels to not unstale other moves... would inputting B inbetween the A inputs cause this to not be the case? This of course is assuming anything other than A is bufferable during a pummel..

I have no means of testing this, sadly.

Buffering isn't really related to what's going on, the pummels just aren't added to the stale move queue if they're interrupted before the end of their animation. I think the reason this is a problem for pummels and not jabs is because they don't have proper FAFs defined in the parameter files (unless Master Core is just wonk, I didn't look at my own game files to see if they matched), which forces the game to go by the animation end instead of queuing the move after x frames.

But to answer the question directly, no. The only solution is to slow down your pummeling.

 

[Vipermoon]

Randomly noticed while talking about tripping with some people that Falco's blaster doesn't trip, despite the Sakurai angle. Is there a minimum amount of knockback needed for 0° tripping or something?


Buffering isn't really related to what's going on, the pummels just aren't added to the stale move queue if they're interrupted before the end of their animation. I think the reason this is a problem for pummels and not jabs is because they don't have proper FAFs defined in the parameter files (unless Master Core is just wonk, I didn't look at my own game files to see if they matched), which forces the game to go by the animation end instead of queuing the move after x frames.

But to answer the question directly, no. The only solution is to slow down your pummeling.

Jabs stale separately? I guess I had no idea.

If the case is that anytime something requires a further input from the player (like Dancing Blade and Jabs(?)), it stales multiple times....then Cloud's Cross Slash should do the same (3 times, not 5 because 3 inputs).

 

[Yikarur]

As long as the move is considered "one move" it stales only once.
Jab1 and Jab2 for example are different moves and thus stale independed from each other.
"Cross Slash" is one entity and stales as such.

 

[Vipermoon]

Well I suppose one cannot CS1 and continue it if it doesn't connect...still 3 inputs are required.

 

[Locke 06]

https://mobile.twitter.com/TheOnlyHadley/status/750052801649094656

Hi, is this all tethers? (ZSS, Lucas, link, TL, and Samus)

Also, is this true for Z-air? Or just tethering to stage.

Comments say "just before the tether connects to the stage" but I paused this related video and the tether attaches and then she gets hit.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

https://mobile.twitter.com/TheOnlyHadley/status/750052801649094656

Hi, is this all tethers? (ZSS, Lucas, link, TL, and Samus)

Also, is this true for Z-air? Or just tethering to stage.

Comments say "just before the tether connects to the stage" but I paused this related video and the tether attaches and then she gets hit.

Lol. No the tether does not have a hurtbox..
All that is happening is Samus is reeling in the tether and getting hit on the hand, then because she immediately goes from being stretched out horizontally during the reel-in animation to being in the air upright like normal it looks like something weird is going on.

 

[Jams.]

https://youtu.be/UawVWpv0vKc?t=19s

What happened here? Does this have to do with Cloud's Limit animation interrupting hitlag?

 

[drafix570]

・Weight Dependent Throw Frames
Only against 12 fighters, sorry(^^;
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jTKlBSu-tKA7RWXqQdyqcc9ocaoeegoy4SyS84Ar5n8/edit?usp=sharing

 

[Pyr]

So I figured something a while ago and thought I'd share. You can wall jump by holding towards the ledge if you let go > hold towards it within 10 frames of each other. Is this just a weird quirk of the buffer system? I can't find anything on this specifically anywhere else. It's interesting because holding towards the stage never results in a wall jump otherwise.

Speed of the inputs would be about the same as a perfect pivot, but holding towards the stage after pressing away. It results on a wall jump with no additional inputs.

 

[Locke 06]

https://youtu.be/6cmvbFwpfyI?t=1m21s
halp

P sure this shield breaker is PS'd. Could be wrong, because YouTube upload.


Jk ignore. Thought puff powershielded it but was wrong.

 

[Lavani]

https://youtu.be/6cmvbFwpfyI?t=1m21s
halp

Jiggs dies when her shield breaks, in every smash game.
Puff barely missed the powershield window.
If it's something else, I'm blind and need it pointed out to me.

edit for clarification: Jiggs's shield is hit on frame 3 going by video frames, but I also see frame 17 of Lucina's shield breaker is missing, so Jiggs had to have shielded the hit on frame 4.

So I figured something a while ago and thought I'd share. You can wall jump by holding towards the ledge if you let go > hold towards it within 10 frames of each other. Is this just a weird quirk of the buffer system? I can't find anything on this specifically anywhere else. It's interesting because holding towards the stage never results in a wall jump otherwise.

Speed of the inputs would be about the same as a perfect pivot, but holding towards the stage after pressing away. It results on a wall jump with no additional inputs.

This is a known thing, but I don't think I've heard it mentioned since Mewtwo's release or ever actually seen it implemented in tournament. It's a nice way to reverse your facing off the ledge if you want to do something like, say, jump onstage with Mario's bair, or ledge trump into Mewtwo fair.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

https://youtu.be/UawVWpv0vKc?t=19s

What happened here? Does this have to do with Cloud's Limit animation interrupting hitlag?

Dreamland 'stage-spike' (wall-bounce).

So I figured something a while ago and thought I'd share. You can wall jump by holding towards the ledge if you let go > hold towards it within 10 frames of each other. Is this just a weird quirk of the buffer system? I can't find anything on this specifically anywhere else. It's interesting because holding towards the stage never results in a wall jump otherwise.

Speed of the inputs would be about the same as a perfect pivot, but holding towards the stage after pressing away. It results on a wall jump with no additional inputs.

Wall-jump is buffered by the input used to let go of the ledge, yes. I noted this for Toon on Duck Hunt at some point.

 

[Taffo]

What's up guys? I'm Taffo and I'm a competitive player since a year on Smash 4

Sometimes during weekly or tournaments I like playing ditto Falcon with my friends but I noticed something really interesting about this character: his Jab has a very high priority than other character moves. I tried to search something about priority and I found the ssbwiki page and, more important, the Esam's video who concerns about the not existence about this mechanic. So now I'm really confused about. Can anybody explain how this mechanic works and a list of all priority moves of characters?

Also, maybe I've not been so clear because of I'm Italian and not that good speaking/writing English, so understand

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Falcon's jab covers a relatively wide area in very short amount of time, which allows it to beat out a lot of moves head-on. People conventionally call that 'priority' though there isn't actually any such value attached to moves in this game. It just means that it covers a relatively high amount of space in relatively short time, making it look like it 'overrules' the opponent's moves.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

In Smash 4 normal moves have a 9% rule. If something does 9% more than another normal move the weaker move is outprioritized on the ground. Normal moves that do within 9% of each other will clank if they hit each other and are grounded. In the air projectiles lose to any regular move that at least does a minimum damage of 8% less of said projectile.

Falcon's jab is quick, so you may just have that move's hitbox out before the opponent can throw out a move or you may just outrange your opponent.

 

[I speak Spanish too]

Do roll cancel pivot grabs extend your grab range?
I know dash attack canceled grabs extend your grab range, so would it be the same for dash attack canceled pivot grabs? This happened in brawl, and I wonder if it can happen here.
I know you can buffer out of throw, but can you buffer out of grabs? Like pummel as soon as possible?

 

[Sonicninja115]

Question:

Diddy Kong's hoo-haa works far longer on the combo meter then in actuality, because of hitstun mechanics and such. What would be the most efficient way to test this combo? My main thought is to set X to airdodge and then have my brother mash it until I find the right percent.

Also, the amount of hitstun received varies from character to character right? So bowser isn't going to receive as much hitstun when hit at 90% by an Fsmash as Zelda would under the same circumstances?