Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[Vipermoon]

It is known that Cloud can cancel his Jab 2 into his rapid Jab 1 right? I discovered this just now and boy is it hilarious. You just hold A, let go very briefly, hold A, let go very briefly, continue. But I'm thinking that there's no way that this isn't an obvious thing because I've encountered it (with myself) multiple times since Cloud came out, just never stopped to look at it.

 

[Djmarcus44]

Is it known that Cloud can cancel his Jab 2 into his rapid Jab 1 right? I discovered this just now and boy is it hilarious. You just hold A, let go very briefly, hold A, let go very briefly, continue. But I'm thinking that there's no way that this isn't an obvious thing because I've encountered it (with myself) multiple times since Cloud came out, just never stopped to look at it.

Yes. Some Cloud players call it jab walking.

 

[Vipermoon]

Yes. Some Cloud players call it jab walking.

Perfect name.

 

[Masonomace]

So did anyone know about a shieldbreak from a strong attack can cause some sort of shield-hitlag invincibility window? I mentioned about it from Luigi player's thread, but I didn't heavily lab it enough to understand it all. Anyway, here's my quote:

There also seems to be invincibility or some kind of shield-stun invincibility proc when you break a shield with a strong move. Trying to hit the shield-broken character with Little Mac frame-1 Jab1 during the shield-stun or shield-break hitlag(?) seems to show that they have invincibility. More can be looked into or perhaps someone has already known about this & explained it better than I have.

Also, I might make a Shield Break height rankings list in case I get bored later & if there isn't one around here already.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

So did anyone know about a shieldbreak from a strong attack can cause some sort of shield-hitlag invincibility window? I mentioned about it from Luigi player's thread, but I didn't heavily lab it enough to understand it all. Anyway, here's my quote:


Also, I might make a Shield Break height rankings list in case I get bored later & if there isn't one around here already.

Being in the shield break animation gives you I-frames until the character lands and stands up. Which is great, because with out it, breaking a shield with a multihit move would hit them out of the break animation unintentionally. And in doubles, players would have a lot more time to save a shield-broken partner. The shield broken victim may be invulnerable, but they still experience collision detection. In other words, you can begin walking into them after they land to start pushing them closer to the edge, or off the edge entirely if they're still falling.

Also, in regard to jab walking, can't shulk do that too?

 

[Masonomace]

Being in the shield break animation gives you I-frames until the character lands and stands up. Which is great, because with out it, breaking a shield with a multihit move would hit them out of the break animation unintentionally. And in doubles, players would have a lot more time to save a shield-broken partner. The shield broken victim may be invulnerable, but they still experience collision detection. In other words, you can begin walking into them after they land to start pushing them closer to the edge, or off the edge entirely if they're still falling.

Also, in regard to jab walking, can't shulk do that too?

Right. . .Hmmm maybe I'm thinking of something different or I didn't word it correctly. 'Cus in Training Mode I have one Little Mac use a down-angled Fsmash to break the Marth's depleted shield, have another Little Mac Jab1 during the first few frames of the shield-break, & Little Mac's hitbox will make a clashing bubble but he won't have any hitlag (I didn't count the frames of the attempted Jab1 during my previous post, sorry about that). I only bring this up because CPUs in Training Mode can't physically hurt each other with their attacks as if Team Attack was set to off, so I was confused as to why that clashing bubble appeared.

And yeah Shulk can Combat Walk. Buster art makes it a blessing.

 

[Vipermoon]

It looked the same but the inputs were different. I held A, let go, held A, etc. I guess he held A and down?

 

[kyoskue]

And yeah Shulk can Combat Walk. Buster art makes it a blessing.

Along with Ike/Fox/ZSS/Sonic as well that I know of.

 

[A10theHero]

Hi everyone!

A short while ago, I got a capture card, so I dropped everything I was working on to focus on something that I’ve been meaning to look into for a while: Hitstun Cancelling. The currently accepted theory is that Air Dodges can interrupt Hitstun once Hitstun is greater than 41 frames. Well, according to my findings, it’s much more complicated than that.

Here is a spreadsheet that contains all of the data I’ve collected so far. Every tab has its purpose and procedure outlined, so hopefully that means it’s easy to understand. It’d be good to skim over all the data for a bit before reading the rest of this post. In case it’s too confusing, don’t worry about that since I will be going through everything you need to know anyways. I also have a playlist made containing all of the raw footage I recorded and analyzed to collect that data. It is also pretty long.

Anyways, the general procedure involved me using a move on Bayonetta in Training Mode, buffering an input (most of the time, air dodge) on my Turbo controller, uploading the footage to YouTube, and then counting how many frames it took for the move to come out. At this point, I should mention that everybody is free to scrutinize my raw footage and frame count for themselves. Just set the quality to at least 720p so that it comes out at 60 fps, and then use the >/. key to move forward frame-by-frame. It is important to mention that the point I started counting from was when the percent first changed to reflect the damage from the move. So on the first frame you see Bayonetta’s percent change, that is Frame 1. Also, I stopped counting once I reached the frame before the next animation started. This is why I picked Bayonetta for this study—her animations, especially her air dodge animation, are pretty exaggerated and easy to distinguish from her launch animation. So the frame before she begins her Air Dodge, for example, would be the last frame you include in your counting.

Moving on, the moves I used were Yoshi’s Up Throw, Pikachu’s Up Throw, and Charizard’s Up Tilt. (Notice that all of these moves have angles greater than 70°. So untechable reel animations had no influence on this data whatsoever.) With Yoshi’s Up Throw, I first verified that Gravity does not affect Hitstun or Hitstun Cancelling. As you can see on Yoshi’s first tab, I have columns showing the calculated Knockback and resultant Hitstun along with their Gravity-adjusted counterparts. Based on the data, the resultant pattern under “Frames Until Air Dodge” seems to more closely follow the change in unadjusted Knockback and Hitstun. So I feel comfortable saying that Gravity really does not have any effect on Hitstun Cancelling (assuming our current understanding of Gravity is correct). Some other interesting results: Once the knockback passed 80 units, “Frames Until Air Dodge” went from Hitstun + 1 to Hitstun + 2. In addition, Hitstun Cancelling began when “Frames Until Air Dodge” was 41 frames, which was when Hitstun was still 39 frames. More on this later.

I’m actually going to go out of order and talk about the tabs involving Charizard’s Up Tilt first. Since throws have no Hitlag, I wanted to use a move that has Hitlag to see if the principles of Hitstun Cancelling remained the same. Also, because I used Bayonetta for the entirety of this study, I used Mario as the test dummy under “Charizard Up Tilt 2” to verify that these findings apply to everyone else as well. According to the first experiment, it seems that Hitstun Cancelling is pretty much the same. Charizard’s Up Tilt has 7 frames of Hitlag, so “Frames Until Air Dodge” looked like the data from Yoshi’s Up Throw plus 7. And based on the data from “Charizard Up Tilt 2”, yes, these findings seem to apply to everyone. Of course, they reach the same Knockback/Hitstun value at different percents because of their different weights, but that’s a given.

Next, let’s talk about Pikachu’s Up Throw. Here, I tested Air Dodge, Attack (Nair), Special, and Jump over a much wider range than Yoshi’s Up Throw or Charizard’s Up Tilt. One universal result is that when Knockback was less than 80 units, “Frames Until Air Dodge” was Hitstun + 1. 80 units and above resulted in Hitstun + 2. Now, to go through each one:


Jump and Special

After the Knockback is greater than 80 units, “Frames Until Jump/Special” was consistently Hitstun + 2. So I guess that means that Hitstun Cancelling doesn’t apply to these two actions.

Knockback | Frames Until Jump/Special
KB < 80 | Hitlag + Hitstun + 1
KB ≥ 80 | Hitlag + Hitstun + 2

Air Dodge

Most of my time has been spent looking into this. I originally only considered percents from 0% up to 245%, with a bunch of percents skipped in-between. (I only wanted to look at the percent before and after Hitstun increased by 1 frame with a few random extra percents here and there.) While counting frames, I noticed that after a while, Hitstun Cancelling seemed to stray away from 41 and increase at an irregular pace. It did not change in a pattern that followed changes in Hitstun. I then went through every percent from when FUAD first changed to 42 all the way until 300%. After collecting all of that data, I realized that Hitstun Cancelling doesn’t seem to change based on Hitstun, but rather when it passes certain Knockback Thresholds. Recall that FUAD first changed when Knockback passed 80 units. And Hitstun Cancelling first began when the Knockback passed 100 units. I tried to make educated guesses as to what the thresholds were, but there were certain points where the Knockback Threshold was too ambiguous for me to try and guess “correctly”. So then I used Yoshi’s Up Throw to try and narrow down the range that contained the real Knockback Threshold values. But then I realized that my educated guesses could be wrong, so I went back to Pikachu’s Up Throw. Using Pikachu’s Close Jab (1.4%), Aerial Thunder Jolt (4.8%), and Nair (8.5%), I could check percents to the first decimal place. And of course I found that my guesses were pretty wrong. On the bright side, I was able to narrow down the range of possible threshold values for every change in FUAD to a range of .0570652. That’s pretty good, in my opinion. It’s also important to mention that in the end, Hitstun Cancelling ceases and Air Dodge begins to behave like Jump and Special.

First, here is a table of the ranges containing the actual Knockback Threshold value:

Knockback Threshold | Range Containing the True Value
X-42 | 143.8206522 < x ≤ 143.8777174
X-43 | 145.5326087 < x ≤ 145.5896739
X-44 | 147.1875 < x ≤ 147.2445652
X-45 | 148.8994565 < x ≤ 148.9565217
X-46 | 150.611413 < x ≤ 150.6684783
X-47 | 152.3233696 < x ≤ 152.3804348
X-48 | 153.9782609 < x ≤ 154.0353261
X-49 | 155.6902174 < x ≤ 155.7472826
X-50 | 157.4021739 < x ≤ 157.4592391
X-51 | 159.1141304 < x ≤ 159.1711957
X-52 | 160.826087 < x ≤ 160.8831522
X-53 | 162.4809783 < x ≤ 162.5380435
X-54 | 164.1929348 < x ≤ 164.25
X-55 | 165.9048913 < x ≤ 165.9619565
X-56 | 167.6168478 < x ≤ 167.673913
X-57 | 169.3288043 < x ≤ 169.3858696
X-58 | 170.9836957 < x ≤ 171.0407609
X-59 | 172.6956522 < x ≤ 172.7527174
X-60 | 174.4076087 < x ≤ 174.4646739
X-61 | 176.1195652 < x ≤ 176.1766304
X-62 | 177.8315217 < x ≤ 177.888587
X-63 | 179.486413 < x ≤ 179.5434783
X-64 | 181.1983696 < x ≤ 181.2554348
X-65 | 182.9103261 < x ≤ 182.9673913
X-66 | 184.6222826 < x ≤ 184.6793478
X-67 | 186.2771739 < x ≤ 186.3342391
X-68 | 187.9891304 < x ≤ 188.0461957
X-69 | 189.701087 < x ≤ 189.7581522
X-70 | 191.4130435 < x ≤ 191.4701087
X-71 | 193.125 < x ≤ 193.1820652
X-72 | 194.7798913 < x ≤ 194.8369565
X-73 | 196.4918478 < x ≤ 196.548913
X-74 | 198.2038043 < x ≤ 198.2608696
X-75 | 199.9157609 < x ≤ 199.9728261
X-76 | 201.6277174 < x ≤ 201.6847826
X-77 | 203.2826087 < x ≤ 203.3396739
X-78 | 204.9945652 < x ≤ 205.0516304
X-79 | 206.7065217 < x ≤ 206.763587
X-80 | 208.4184783 < x ≤ 208.4755435
X-81 | 210.1304348 < x ≤ 210.1875
X-82 | 211.7853261 < x ≤ 211.8423913
X-83 | 213.4972826 < x ≤ 213.5543478
X-84 | 215.2092391 < x ≤ 215.2663043
X-85 | 216.9211957 < x ≤ 216.9782609
X-86 | 218.6331522 < x ≤ 218.6902174
X-87 | 220.2880435 < x ≤ 220.3451087
X-88 | 222 < x ≤ 222.0570652
X-89 | 223.7119565 < x ≤ 223.7690217
X-90 | 225.423913 < x ≤ 225.4809783
X-91 | 227.0788043 < x ≤ 227.1358696
X-92 | 228.7907609 < x ≤ 228.8478261
X-93 | 230.5027174 < x ≤ 230.5597826
X-94 | 232.4429348 < x ≤ 232.5

Note: X-# is the Knockback Threshold for when FUAD becomes #.

Next, here’s a table with the FUAD for different Knockback values.

Knockback | Frames Until Air Dodge
KB < 80 | Hitlag + Hitstun + 1
80 ≤ KB < 100 | Hitlag + Hitstun + 2
100 ≤ KB < X-42 | Hitlag + 41
X-42 ≤ KB < X-43 | Hitlag + 42
X-43 ≤ KB < X-44 | Hitlag + 43
X-44 ≤ KB < X-45 | Hitlag + 44
X-45 ≤ KB < X-46 | Hitlag + 45
X-46 ≤ KB < X-47 | Hitlag + 46
X-47 ≤ KB < X-48 | Hitlag + 47
X-48 ≤ KB < X-49 | Hitlag + 48
X-49 ≤ KB < X-50 | Hitlag + 49
X-50 ≤ KB < X-51 | Hitlag + 50
X-51 ≤ KB < X-52 | Hitlag + 51
X-52 ≤ KB < X-53 | Hitlag + 52
X-53 ≤ KB < X-54 | Hitlag + 53
X-54 ≤ KB < X-55 | Hitlag + 54
X-55 ≤ KB < X-56 | Hitlag + 55
X-56 ≤ KB < X-57 | Hitlag + 56
X-57 ≤ KB < X-58 | Hitlag + 57
X-58 ≤ KB < X-59 | Hitlag + 58
X-59 ≤ KB < X-60 | Hitlag + 59
X-60 ≤ KB < X-61 | Hitlag + 60
X-61 ≤ KB < X-62 | Hitlag + 61
X-62 ≤ KB < X63 | Hitlag + 62
X-63 ≤ KB < X-64 | Hitlag + 63
X-64 ≤ KB < X-65 | Hitlag + 64
X-65 ≤ KB < X-66 | Hitlag + 65
X-66 ≤ KB < X-67 | Hitlag + 66
X-67 ≤ KB < X-68 | Hitlag + 67
X-68 ≤ KB < X-69 | Hitlag + 68
X-69 ≤ KB < X-70 | Hitlag + 69
X-70 ≤ KB < X-71 | Hitlag + 70
X-71 ≤ KB < X-72 | Hitlag + 71
X-72 ≤ KB < X-73 | Hitlag + 72
X-73 ≤ KB < X-74 | Hitlag + 73
X-74 ≤ KB < X-75 | Hitlag + 74
X-75 ≤ KB < X-76 | Hitlag + 75
X-76 ≤ KB < X-77 | Hitlag + 76
X-77 ≤ KB < X-78 | Hitlag + 77
X-78 ≤ KB < X-79 | Hitlag + 78
X-79 ≤ KB < X-80 | Hitlag + 79
X-80 ≤ KB < X-81 | Hitlag + 80
X-81 ≤ KB < X-82 | Hitlag + 81
X-82 ≤ KB < X-83 | Hitlag + 82
X-83 ≤ KB < X-84 | Hitlag + 83
X-84 ≤ KB < X-85 | Hitlag + 84
X-85 ≤ KB < X-86 | Hitlag + 85
X-86 ≤ KB < X-87 | Hitlag + 86
X-87 ≤ KB < X-88 | Hitlag + 87
X-88 ≤ KB < X-89 | Hitlag + 88
X-89 ≤ KB < X-90 | Hitlag + 89
X-90 ≤ KB < X-91 | Hitlag + 90
X-91 ≤ KB < X-92 | Hitlag + 91
X-92 ≤ KB < X-93 | Hitlag + 92
X-93 ≤ KB < X-94 | Hitlag + 93
X-94 ≤ KB | Hitlag + Hitstun + 2

Hopefully to make things easier to understand, here’s an example: Let’s say a move has a Knockback of 152 units. This is greater than any possible value of X-46 and less than any possible value of X-47. So X-46 ≤ 152 < X-47. According to the second table, the opponent will Air Dodge after 46 frames (plus however many frames of Hitlag).


Attack

There appears to be some form of Hitstun Cancelling with Attack as well. Though “Frames Until Attack” stalls at 46 for a while and not 41. I didn’t really look into this one much so far because I’ve been so focused on Frames Until Air Dodge. But now I’ll research it and post here again once I learn more about it.


Alright, that’s all I have to say. I know this is a lot of information and I'm not sure if I explained it as clearly as possible, so if anyone has any questions, I’m more than happy to help. c:

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Hmm OK I wonder what the knockback thresholds are for that rando period of time when it stalls from 41 frames for airdodge.

Oh well, I want to nap.

 

[Lavani]

When I was talking to Shaya about this/looking into it myself months ago it seemed to be based on velocity rather than actual KB. The reduced knockback velocity caused by groundbounces allowed for airdodges at 41 up to much higher KB values than standard knockback, despite hitstun not being reduced by this, but the distances this happened at were similar to where a non-groundbounce move would send to.

I've posted more exact numbers somewhere but I cbf to go dig it up again. I want to say the KB numbers I was looking at were something like 100-175 KB with CFalcon dair groundbounce and 100-145 KB with Corrin fair. Wouldn't know how that would translate to velocity, but I remember seeing some Japanese spreadsheets pertaining to that.

 

[A10theHero]

When I was talking to Shaya about this/looking into it myself months ago it seemed to be based on velocity rather than actual KB. The reduced knockback velocity caused by groundbounces allowed for airdodges at 41 up to much higher KB values than standard knockback, despite hitstun not being reduced by this, but the distances this happened at were similar to where a non-groundbounce move would send to.

Just to make sure I'm understanding this correctly, are you saying that the height traveled after the rebound was similar to the height of a non-groundbounce move at a lower knockback where hitstun cancelling at 41 frames is expected? If yes, could it be that, since hitstun cancelling seems to depend first and foremost on the knockback rather than the actual hitstun, the game just recalculates knockback after a groundbounce and uses that value to determine when air dodges and such can interrupt?

I've posted more exact numbers somewhere but I cbf to go dig it up again. I want to say the KB numbers I was looking at were something like 100-175 KB with CFalcon dair groundbounce and 100-145 KB with Corrin fair. Wouldn't know how that would translate to velocity, but I remember seeing some Japanese spreadsheets pertaining to that.

And if you could, that'd be greatly appreciated. c:

 

[Masonomace]

. . .so a question or two. They're the ones underlined.

This google document shows footstool endlag for every character when they seem to be footstooled on the ground, but in the air, it's different(?). If I footstool someone in the air, the character footstooled going into a tumble fall animation suffers more endlag than what the google document tells me. Here's an example:
-
Note: 's footstool jumpsquat is 7 frames, acting on frame 8. The footstool jumpsquat held or tapped didn't matter with the amount of airborne tumble fall endlag suffered based on the few characters I labbed.
-
footstooled by suffers footstool tumble fall lag & is unable to act from frame 1-47 until frame 48.
footstooled by suffers footstool tumble fall lag & is unable to act from frame 1-41 until frame 42.
-
However, that document states that they're both unable to act for 28 frames until frame 29 with shield. So I wanna believe that the column is for (Grounded) Footstool, which means we don't have airborne footstool lag data(?)
-
If we don't have airborne footstool data, I can lab every character sometime & get back with you all on the findings. I'm also wondering, how much endlag is suffered when you force a character to slip off of a ledge & into a forced tumble fall?

EDIT: I've completed every character's airborne footstool endlag, but I'll type it when I get home. It'll have a little gem of info tucked inside it too. Stay tuned later tonight

 

[Masonomace]

Sorry for double post, but I don't wanna edit my previous post to add the delicious data I've gathered. So here it is. .

Airborne Footstool Endlag
(FAF is used. KuroganeHammer-lookin' table format for show)​

Rank | Character | FAF
1 | Fox | 38
2 | King Dedede | 39
3-4 | Captain Falcon | 41
3-4 | Greninja | 41
5-10 | Bayonetta | 42
5-10 | Diddy Kong | 42
5-10 | Falco | 42
5-10 | Little Mac | 42
5-10 | Mega Man | 42
5-10 | Sheik | 42
11-15 | Cloud (Including Limit Break) | 43
11-15 | Duck Hunt | 43
11-15 | Lucario | 43
11-15 | Mii Brawler (All sizes) | 43
11-15 | Zero Suit Samus | 43
16-21 | Bowser Jr. | 44
16-21 | Corrin | 44
16-21 | Donkey Kong | 44
16-21 | Meta Knight | 44
16-21 | Mii Swordfighter (All sizes) | 44
16-21 | Wario | 44
22-28 | Dark Pit | 45
22-28 | Link | 45
22-28 | Pikachu | 45
22-28 | Pit | 45
22-28 | R.O.B. | 45
22-28 | Ryu | 45
22-28 | Shulk (Including every Monado art) | 45
29-35 | Dr. Mario | 46
29-35 | Ike | 46
29-35 | Mario | 46
29-35 | Mewtwo | 46
29-35 | Mii Gunner | 46
29-35 | Robin | 46
29-35 | Roy | 46
36-39 | Ganondorf | 47
36-39 | Pac-Man | 47
36-39 | Palutena | 47
36-39 | Sonic | 47
40-44 | Bowser | 48
40-44 | Charizard | 48
40-44 | Lucas | 48
40-44 | Olimar | 48
40-44 | Samus | 48
45-49 | Marth | 49
45-49 | Ness | 49
45-49 | Villager | 49
45-49 | Toon Link | 49
45-49 | Yoshi | 49
50-54 | Kirby | 50
50-54 | Lucina | 50
50-54 | Luigi | 50
50-54 | Mr. Game & Watch | 50
50-54 | Rosalina & Luma | 50
55 | Zelda | 51
56 | Wii Fit Trainer | 52
57-58 | Jigglypuff | 54
57-58 | Peach | 54

Inb4 "Are you sure Marth & Lucina are different?". Yes, they are different. This is the second thing I've figured out that Marth & Lucina DO NOT share in common in terms of frame data.

 

[Vipermoon]

So the data seems to be based on falling gravity.

 

[Meshima]

The most interesting thing from this data for me is the difference between Marth and Lucina.
Only thing I know about the difference of their attributes is the character size in screen(x0.96 and x0.92 from their raw model size). I'm wondering what affect to their endlag...
Anyway, great job Masonomace !

Edit:
In this spreadsheets, airborne footstool endlag is probably in Name 56, column BG.
Some values are different with Masonomace's research data, but this attribute should have relation.

 

[teluoborg]

So Lucina has 1 less frame on her footstooling animation but one more frame on her footstooled animation.

There must be some karmic law of frame data preservation going on.

Thanks for the awesome work Mason, even though you should not encourage people to use FAF lmao.

 

[Masonomace]

Yeah, I will never understand why Lucina's footstool jumpsquat is 1 frame longer & the fact that her footstooled animation is 1 frame longer than Marth. All clones checked out identical except for them two. So weird. .

FAF was thrown out there though. Even in total frames, Idk the exact amount of "total frames" there was. Like I recalled, Shulk's footstool jumpsquat is 7 frames, so maybe Fox's airborne footstool endlag is 30 total frames. That's why I accounted for all 7 frames of footstool jumpsquat as a whole D:

 

[A10theHero]

Hi, it's me again!

Work on Hitstun Cancelling with Attack has been really slow because of uncontrollable external factors, but while waiting on that, I made this: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1knEbbxXD-DboUuPt8E5oE7wDpbl_bmhWA5jg2mohMiE/edit?usp=sharing

This is a Google Sheets-based calculator that accounts for Hitstun Cancelling. It can calculate Knockback, Hitlag, and Hitstun, and then tell you the "Frames Until Air Dodge" and "Frames Until Jump/Special". To use it, all you need is a Google account and you can copy it to your Drive. Please try it out and let me know how it goes. If anything seems off or wrong, please report it to me immediately. And of course, I'm here to answer any questions you may have. Thanks, and I hope this helps! c:

 

[Funen1]

A10theHero One thing I see that's wrong at first glance is the staleness table. The staleness multiplier isn't just how many times a move is in the queue, it's also where it is in the queue - the later a move's spot is, the less it's staled. KuroganeHammer's formula page shows what the multipliers are for each spot. If I could make a suggestion, one idea could be to make a table listing each spot, and to their right are cells that ask whether a move is in that spot in the queue, perhaps using something like 0 and 1 for "no" and "yes". The staleness section could then have another cell that shows the raw multiplier, similar to the Rage section, and the main staleness cell above would be where you'd enter that number or 1.05 if the move is fresh. Maybe there's a more efficient way to condense all the numbers and formulas here lol, but it's the best I could think of.

Also when I downloaded the file, the actual hitstun cell didn't work - it just had "-1" as text instead of a formula. Might've been because the formula itself is considered "incorrect" in Excel 2010. I recommend using INT instead of FLOOR since the latter requires extra arguments that your original file doesn't have.

 

[A10theHero]

A10theHero One thing I see that's wrong at first glance is the staleness table. The staleness multiplier isn't just how many times a move is in the queue, it's also where it is in the queue - the later a move's spot is, the less it's staled. KuroganeHammer's formula page shows what the multipliers are for each spot. If I could make a suggestion, one idea could be to make a table listing each spot, and to their right are cells that ask whether a move is in that spot in the queue, perhaps using something like 0 and 1 for "no" and "yes". The staleness section could then have another cell that shows the raw multiplier, similar to the Rage section, and the main staleness cell above would be where you'd enter that number or 1.05 if the move is fresh. Maybe there's a more efficient way to condense all the numbers and formulas here lol, but it's the best I could think of.

Also when I downloaded the file, the actual hitstun cell didn't work - it just had "-1" as text instead of a formula. Might've been because the formula itself is considered "incorrect" in Excel 2010. I recommend using INT instead of FLOOR since the latter requires extra arguments that your original file doesn't have.

Oops, I completely forgot about that. That has been fixed now. Thanks for pointing it out! ^-^
Also, I wouldn't recommend downloading it as an Excel file. When I tried doing that, formulas just flat out stopped working. Like "Frames Until Air Dodge" had "Error" and Hitstun became "-1" as text for me too. FLOOR probably is only making a difference since you're using Excel. It has all the proper arguments on Google Sheets. But I'll keep that in mind when I work on an offline version. Thanks for your input! c:

 

[wizrad]

Is there a list of SDI multipliers for all moves in the game? Really, I'm just looking for the multipliers on the individual hits of Piston Punch (Mii Brawler's up special which Venom claims to have labbed to find some potentially broken strats with) to see when it is last able to be SDI'd out of. Many thanks in advance.

 

[Game7a1]

Wtf this banana straight up changed direction LMAO pic.twitter.com/egJC9hVftm

— JJROCKETS (@JJROCKETS) August 28, 2016

So I had this happen to me and was wondering why it happened. I would like inputs form others (if it hasn't been discussed already), but my theory is something to do from the transition to air to ground and what that does to the throw itself (or more specifically, the item placement).
I'd also like to know if it works on other characters. I've only gotten it to work with Jigglypuff and Pikachu. I've tried other characters, and either the timing with them is harder or they can't pull off what is shown.

 

[Azazel]

I can't z drop from a wall jump. I have even tried holding shield + with c stick set to tilts.

Am I doing something wrong?
Is this a thing? If so, why?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

yeah that's weird. You have to wait till after the peak of your wall-jump. Unless of course you z-drop the item during the first few frames of an airdodge, but yeah.

 

[DanGR]

The KB angle of the down-smash midway through this short video seemed odd. Anyone know what happened here?

 

[Game7a1]

It might be due to the platform rising and ZSS being a tall fast faller. I went into training mode to reproduce the scenario (albeit 90% for both characters), and ZSS just slid off and went downwards to the left. I tried a couple other characters to see if it would work.
Cloud - Yes. With Limit: Yes.
Fox: No.
JIgglypuff: No.
Rosalina: No.

 

[Vipermoon]

It might be due to the platform rising and ZSS being a tall fast faller. I went into training mode to reproduce the scenario (albeit 90% for both characters), and ZSS just slid off and went downwards to the left. I tried a couple other characters to see if it would work.
Cloud - Yes. With Limit: Yes.
Fox: No.
JIgglypuff: No.
Rosalina: No.

Is this the sweet or sourspot of Dsmash?

 

[Game7a1]

Sweetspot. It seems like a case of SDI'ing and DI-ing towards the platform and away from Robin and then teching it, and the character that gets hit receives the momentum of the D-Smash.
EDIT: I tried on another stage, Kongo Jungle 64. And the same thing happened.
EDIT 2: Tried two other characters.
Roy: Yes.
Marth: No.

 

[ぱみゅ]

There used to be similar, weird behavior involving several electric-attribute moves: weird angles, strange trades, and sometimes the character would get no hitstun or knockback, but the character still shuffled in the air as if it got stunned...

 

[Doc_Pickle]

Interesting! I was the Robin player in that clip. The better punish there would have been fsmash or even backthrow correct? (or dthrow upair if it would have connected there)

 

[Meshima]

Some datamining stuffs.

Reeling animation odds: 0.3
Maximum angle changed from trajectory DI: 0.17 radians (= 9.740 degrees)
Maximum launch angle from 361 moves against airborne opponents: 0.79 radians (= 45.26 degrees)

Edit:
Knockback(maybe launch speed?) multiplier on wall/ceiling bounce: 0.85
(while grounded meteor multiplier: 0.8)
Min vectoring launch speed multiplier: 0.92
Max vectoring launch speed multiplier: 1.095

Vertical launch speed boost formula 5*(gravity-0.075) is actually used in this game too.
Just applying this formula make an error compared with the ingame resulting, so I guess another formula(related to gravity2?) is also used for calculating the vertical launch speed but I haven't found yet.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Is there a move that only deals a straight 1% 2% would work as well, but not as well. I want to get kill percents and combo percents with rage and stuff.

 

[A10theHero]

Is there a move that only deals a straight 1% 2% would work as well, but not as well. I want to get kill percents and combo percents with rage and stuff.

Pikachu's Jab can do 1%. The move has three hitboxes and the 1% hit is the farthest hitbox from his body. Of course it won't be exactly 1% because freshness and staling will affect that number, so please be wary of that.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Pikachu's Jab can do 1%. The move has three hitboxes and the 1% hit is the farthest hitbox from his body. Of course it won't be exactly 1% because freshness and staling will affect that number, so please be wary of that.

I am planning on doing "Hit, SD, Hit" until I get to the percent I want them to be at.

 

[A10theHero]

I am planning on doing "Hit, SD, Hit" until I get to the percent I want them to be at.

Alright. Then it'll just be 1.05% each time. c:

 

[Sonicninja115]

Alright. Then it'll just be 1.05% each time. c:

Thanks! The jab doesn't happen to deal .95 when staled once does it?

 

[A10theHero]

Thanks! The jab doesn't happen to deal .95 when staled once does it?

It'll do .92% when staled once.

 

[Masonomace]

Sonicninja115 Falco's Neutral B-3 Burst Blaster also deals 1%, but like A10 mentioned, it'll deal 1.05% in a real match setting. And when it's up close within range, it'll deal 2% but actually 2.1% to speed up the process if you needed.

 

[Kofu]

I'll have to derail this a little bit and have to state this about Diddy Kong. There are some instances where players seem to hit Diddy Kong's Up B and send him flying at an extreme velocity, and while this could be concluded as a glitch, this is not really a glitch that can't be understood. So I went through the labbing phases myself and found out that Diddy Kong will fly an absurd amount of velocity when hit with a highly powered electric move, such as Samus and Mega Man's Charge Shot or Ganondorf's Down Aerial. Samus's Charge Shot in particular is something that people should keep in the event Diddy goes under at around 40% to 60% damage, where he's guaranteed to die.

Now the crazy thing is, is that the attacks with the most velocity are the ones that are hardest to hit, e.g. Warlock Punch (reverse), Rest, KO Punch and various other ones. But there are two instances of odder glitches with Rocketbarrel, which are that KO Punch actually doesn't go through it like every other attack and that Mr. Game and Watch's Judge 8 will not freeze Diddy Kong at all!

With all of this in mind, Rocketbarrel Boost might be even more of a liability for Diddy Kong's recovery. If an opponent reads Diddy's recovery and hits right, Diddy might die very early in comparison to how he dies now.

Anyone else know about this or has more info about it? Currently looking around the threads and finding nothing about it.

(And understand, not everyone will automatically know about it.)

Is Diddy Kong being hit during his charge animation or in motion? Because if it's while he's charging his Up-B, I've long suspected that specials have something similar to the Smash Charge Vulnerability, where you get launched farther while charging or holding a special.