Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[Radical Larry]

Is Diddy Kong being hit during his charge animation or in motion? Because if it's while he's charging his Up-B, I've long suspected that specials have something similar to the Smash Charge Vulnerability, where you get launched farther while charging or holding a special.

From all of my tests, Diddy Kong was in motion. I tested it on Battlefield, had the damage set on 50% and hit Diddy Kong with an attack or charged attack that had enough knockback to send him back and dealt at least 18% to 20% (in the case of Ike, the standard was always 22%).

And from my tests, I can conclude that attacks like Samus's full charged Charge Shot will KO him much earlier during this than if he were hit on stage without using Rocketbarrel. Diddy would normally die around 90% from it, but he dies at 60% to 70% in the motion animation.

 

[Radical Larry]

Edit: Alright, I didn't realize Toon Link had a landing hitbox, but the weird thing is that Ganondorf still didn't take any knockback from the attack whatsoever and got hit during invincibility state.

 

[Browny]

I'm just going to drop this here

https://smashboards.com/threads/the...sing-frame-traps.415950/page-12#post-21444414

Diddys dtilt-usmash is not, and never has been, a kill combo. It is a frame trap at best, one that is escapable. With Mewtwo its kind of easy to get out of it because of his light weight. I can't be bothered testing on other characters but I'm fairly sure many others can escape it too.

 

[Yikarur]

of course it's a kill combo if you don't DI the dtilt correctly and Diddys dtilt is too fast to DI correctly on reaction. You will still get combo'd a lot by it. And of course Mewtu is very floaty so dtilt is combing worse.

 

[Azazel]

How does Item dacus/boost tossing/ditcit forward work?
Dash item toss can be canceled into up toss same way dacus used to work but what is happening with forward ditcit?
forward toss seems to not be able to cancel dash item toss, but then again forward toss doesn't seems yo be able to cancel up toss

Perhaps it has to do with buffering. In the same way shiek can needle cancel into specials without air dodging or cloud can buffer attack while charging and cancel without shielding.
Forward item toss is buffered during dash item toss, and when its canceled with an up toss input, forward comes out instead.

But I feel this hypothesis falls apart considering the inputs

PS:
Links an exception since its best to cancel the end lag of dash item toss with up toss but he technically just simply dash item tossed and not forward toss

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

How does Item dacus/boost tossing/ditcit forward work?
Dash item toss can be canceled into up toss same way dacus used to work but what is happening with forward ditcit?
forward toss seems to not be able to cancel dash item toss, but then again forward toss doesn't seems yo be able to cancel up toss

Perhaps it has to do with buffering. In the same way shiek can needle cancel into specials without air dodging or cloud can buffer attack while charging and cancel without shielding.
Forward item toss is buffered during dash item toss, and when its canceled with an up toss input, forward comes out instead.

But I feel this hypothesis falls apart considering the inputs

PS:
Links an exception since its best to cancel the end lag of dash item toss with up toss but he technically just simply dash item tossed and not forward toss

See everything about the 'bombslide' here; all your questions should be answered. https://smashboards.com/threads/the-comprehensive-guide-to-links-ats.400585/
If for some reason they aren't then at least you can ask any follow-up questions using more familiar terminology and I'll then be able to answer you. For now you're just too wrong about too many things and I don't know where to begin.

 

[teluoborg]

http://imgur.com/a/kIDVf
All legal stages blastzones comparison redrawn by @BlueDan

 

[Skurry]

Not sure if this is anyone has already found this but I couldn't find ANY posts or videos about it so I figured I would share it.

I was playing online and somehow managed to tech and immediately grab the ledge. I started to test the same scenario and started to get it somewhat consistently as well as understand what it was that happened.

Basically, if you are moving towards a ledge and tech IN PLACE right on the edge, then immediately direct your control stick in a direction off the ledge, you can cancel the tech mid animation. (the positioning is very strict) By doing this, its possible to immediately move down and towards the ledge to grab it. You can also do a jump into an attack or fall off into an attack. As with other ledge cancels, this also works on platforms.

Here's a video showcasing it:

You can do a similar thing with missed techs but you don't get the invincibility from the tech and wont be able to jump. I would be surprised if no one knew about this prior but I personally have never seen anyone do this. Let me know if someone else already discovered this and be sure to try this tech out yourself.

 

[Radical Larry]

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This literally defies every single thing we know about how ledge punishing works.

Look specifically where Ganondorf (the opponent) is at 36% to 41%. Like I said in an earlier post, I hit him with Toon Link's D-Air, but it was on the landing hitbox of the attack. Now the attack upon landing deals a consistent 5% damage with 20 BKB and 100 KBG, so Ganondorf should have been knocked back. No, he wasn't, he managed to snap onto the ledge of the stage.

So then he should have gotten 2 frame punished. Apparently not the case either. I seriously don't know how this happens or why it does, but I can't replicate it.

 

[Kofu]

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This literally defies every single thing we know about how ledge punishing works.

Look specifically where Ganondorf (the opponent) is at 36% to 41%. Like I said in an earlier post, I hit him with Toon Link's D-Air, but it was on the landing hitbox of the attack. Now the attack upon landing deals a consistent 5% damage with 20 BKB and 100 KBG, so Ganondorf should have been knocked back. No, he wasn't, he managed to snap onto the ledge of the stage.

So then he should have gotten 2 frame punished. Apparently not the case either. I seriously don't know how this happens or why it does, but I can't replicate it.

That landing hit is linked to a windbox that only hits grounded foes. I believe that's related to this, since the windbox on Game & Watch's DTilt will hurt, but not move, opponents on the ledge. However, his is only supposed to work on airborne opponents (though it still does damage to shields).

That's all I got.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

This literally defies every single thing we know about how ledge punishing works.

Look specifically where Ganondorf (the opponent) is at 36% to 41%. Like I said in an earlier post, I hit him with Toon Link's D-Air, but it was on the landing hitbox of the attack. Now the attack upon landing deals a consistent 5% damage with 20 BKB and 100 KBG, so Ganondorf should have been knocked back. No, he wasn't, he managed to snap onto the ledge of the stage.

So then he should have gotten 2 frame punished. Apparently not the case either. I seriously don't know how this happens or why it does, but I can't replicate it.

Toon's landing hitbox on Dair has been a thing since Brawl. It's difficult to hit with consistently because you need to avoid the Dair hitbox on the last airborne frame (which extends down past the ground) if you want to only connect with the landing hitbox. It doesn't deal any hitlag or hitstun. It just inflicts 5% and pure momentum like a windbox except that the amount of momentum inflicted scales with the opponent's percent. Naturally it would not interrupt someone grabbing the ledge both before and during the ledge grab animation.

Edit: Oh, and I'm not sure why anyone thought it only hits grounded opponents, because that's not true.

 

[Radical Larry]

Toon's landing hitbox on Dair has been a thing since Brawl. It's difficult to hit with consistently because you need to avoid the Dair hitbox on the last airborne frame (which extends down past the ground) if you want to only connect with the landing hitbox. It doesn't deal any hitlag or hitstun. It just inflicts 5% and pure momentum like a windbox except that the amount of momentum inflicted scales with the opponent's percent. Naturally it would not interrupt someone grabbing the ledge both before and during the ledge grab animation.

Edit: Oh, and I'm not sure why anyone thought it only hits grounded opponents, because that's not true.

Someone already told me about how it worked a while back. But I kind of already knew it'd hit airborne opponents (as I've tested it with a Ganondorf that was underneath a soft platform in training mode) when recreating it.

But now my question is, how can a hitbox like this even exist? It doesn't cause a windbox (a windbox surrounds it), it doesn't cause opponents to stun despite its knockback values, and it even somehow changes the trajectory of an opponent who's already been hit. What even is this?

 

[Yikarur]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erxQVB2SS_0

There must be something in Cloud's UpB coding that negates the ability to tech. Can someone find it?

 

[Radical Larry]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erxQVB2SS_0

There must be something in Cloud's UpB coding that negates the ability to tech. Can someone find it?

Or...maybe the lack thereof.

 

[Masonomace]

So basically, ledge jump is silly.

I fully-labbed it with , & then labbed & since they are the three characters that don't have identical frame data of intangibility & endlag, right? Wrong. . . Here's Shulk frame data & buffering with his option from the ledge-jump:
LEDGEJUMP STUFF

• Frame 47 is the first frame Shulk is able to fastfall from a ledge-jump.
  
  
• Frame 16 is the first frame Shulk can act from a LedgeJump, but only with an aerial or special attack. Frame 18 is when Shulk can act with an airdodge or doublejump, but he can buffer airdodge or doublejump on frame 17. On frame 46, you can start to art cycle and or buffer art deactivation.

BUFFER INPUT WINDOWS

• Aerial = Frame 16-
• Special = Frame 16-
• (Exception) Monado art cycle / deactivation = Frame 46-
• Doublejump = Frame 17-18 (Frame 18 is when doublejump frame 1 starts)
• Airdodge = Frame 17-18 (Frame 18 is when airdodge frame 1 starts)

As far as I tested with Duck Hunt albeit it wasn't all the way, his aerials specials doublejump & airdodge buffering inputs are identical to Shulk. Palu is the same but you just add +1 to all her stuff. The majority though? I labbed just Yoshi & Lucario & they checked out as the exact same except you just apply a -3 to Shulk's data.

EDIT: However, the first frame you can initiate fastfall may differ. Shulk & Duck Hunt might not have the same fastfall initiation for example.

TL;DR Don't fully trust in that "FAF 13, 16, or 17" ledge-jump endlag data. For the most part, that only applies to your aerials & most specials. Everything else unless some exceptions are labbed & come up, I will presume it is mostly universal. If you play Palu, just look at Shulk's data & add +1 to it all. If you play Duck Hunt, just look at Shulk's data. If you play any other character, just look at Shulk's data & add a -3 to it all.

 

[Locke 06]

So basically, ledge jump is silly.

So ledge jump airdodge with bayo's f1 bat within airdodge has 2f of vulnerability when input correctly?
Consequently, mewtwo has 3f of vulnerability when doing his airdodge and most characters have 4f windows?

 

[Masonomace]

So ledge jump airdodge with bayo's f1 bat within airdodge has 2f of vulnerability when input correctly?
Consequently, mewtwo has 3f of vulnerability when doing his airdodge and most characters have 4f windows?

Bayo's airdodge buffer window is frame 14- onward, & she's only vulnerable on frame 14. Her airdodge frame 1 Bat Within takes place on frame 15 so, yeah she's only vulnerable for two frames being 13 & 14.

 

[DanGR]

Is there a rankings list for double jump speed?

Also, good work Masonomace . Seems that we have yet another '2-frame'.

 

[thehard]

Twitter tech!

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There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[moofpi]

In Melee, shifting shields has several purposes for spacing out opponents attacks, preventing shield stabs, and even positing in a way to cause the opponent to miss their L cancel window and punish them.

What kind of purposes does shield shifting have in Smash 4? I never do it out of fear of hitting too far and rolling unintentionally, but I'll practice it again if it gives me a better chance to push an opponent slightly further away or cause them to miss an autocancel window if at all possible.

Twitter tech!

There was a problem fetching the tweet

There was a problem fetching the tweet

So you can platform cancel footstools and act immediately even if you're only partway through the platform?

Yes, Void's a god. Love him. Anyone else use any particular move that shifts your hurtbox to wade through combos or other hitboxes? I personally use Mario's bair to escape some pressure and move my hurtbox in a thin, retreating position.

I love the idea of shifting hurtboxes with moves though and not just in a survival di situation.

 

[Azazel]

I
So you can platform cancel footstools and act immediately even if you're only partway through the platform?

Yeah I'm not sure what im seeing either, but it could be the case. I'm thinking ecb extends downward or you fall on the starting frames of footstool (evidence for falling, you can only grab ledge while falling).

 

[I speak Spanish too]

Is their a way to find out the FAF on non-weight dependent throws?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Is their a way to find out the FAF on non-weight dependent throws?

Well you could always simply count the frames. https://smashboards.com/threads/foxys-guide-to-testing-and-labbing.417822/
Note that some throws have freeze frames but in those cases you'd arguably want to include those frames as well if you are in fact after the amount of frames starting from the first frame of the throw and ending on the frame you can first act out of it.

 

[SJMistery]

sorry for sounding like a tryhard munkchin, but I am totally fed up with the Circle Pad sindrome going to insane lenghts when the game lags a little. Which fighter and playstyle is the LESS vulnerable to those two banes of 3DS competitive? i need to know, at least, who i can rely as a counterpick if the opponent deliberately induces lag.

 

[ぱみゅ]

sorry for sounding like a tryhard munkchin, but I am totally fed up with the Circle Pad sindrome going to insane lenghts when the game lags a little. Which fighter and playstyle is the LESS vulnerable to those two banes of 3DS competitive? i need to know, at least, who i can rely as a counterpick if the opponent deliberately induces lag.

The best thing you can and should do is stop playing to win and focusing more to learn, specially when playing online.
If the match becomes insufferably laggy, then accept it and try to take as many mental notes as possible on what is going on, instead of getting the victory, which at that point shouldn't be a priority.

 

[Masonomace]

Also by the way, not to go off subject or anything but I figured out the forward smash angle windows for said characters that can angle their smash ↑ or ↓.

 

[SJMistery]

The best thing you can and should do is stop playing to win and focusing more to learn, specially when playing online.
If the match becomes insufferably laggy, then accept it and try to take as many mental notes as possible on what is going on, instead of getting the victory, which at that point shouldn't be a priority.

the problem is, when the game lags, my already rebellious Circle Pad literally goes berserk. Once I wa trying to recover and instead of Hyrdo Pump it activated freaking Substitute. I literally cannot even use Smash attacks or run reliably when the game lags. This is a HEAVY disadvantage, and there is little I can learn from this outside of "yeah,smash attacks and running are quite useful, I wish I could use them when I want". And if the oppponent spams rolls, attacks and quick turns, the circle pad stopping to work completely is not out of the question, levaing me no choice but to watch how my opponent strips away my two stock even with just their jabs... I wish it was possible to simply forfeit the match in those cases without getting banned.

ANd this is why I'm asking. There is any caracther capable of surviving those handicaps for a reasonable amount of time, so I can at least try to survive until the game stops lagging?

 

[Masonomace]

So question. . the angle influence is 10° yeah? If so, how does one explain how to DI / vector against Sakurai Angle moves grounded?. . .

 

[KanjiGames]

I'm looking for all bairs that are able to send the opponent forward.
pretty sure someone listed them already on smashboards but I just can't seem to find it

 

[Masonomace]

So you guys know that "Combat Walk" stuff in Brawl yeah? Anywho, did some data on that whole ordeal. Turns out that characters have an interesting extent of data to it & why X stuff happens. Anyway, here's the data from my notepad format into smashboards organization with a brief explanation first.

Way of testing this: Characters are jabbing nothing thus hitting on whiff. Just a matter of holding and or releasing attack button. The way this is done is the "lazy IASA" through it all.

So for example, if say, under the "Holding A = Rapid Jab1" category spoiler said "Jab1: transitions into itself on frame 10", then that means that the frame 1 starting animation for the next Jab1 is on frame 10 thus hitting on frame 11 within the queue of frames.

Another example being under the "Holding A = Jab1 → Jab2 only" category spoiler says "Jab2: transitions Jab1 into Jab2 on frame 19". This means that her Jab2 animations begins on frame 19 thus hitting on frame 20 in the frame queue.
-
Holding A for the first jab is basic & can be explained by different categories for characters. Either you hold the attack button and:

• your character repeatedly jabs with the first hit
• your character goes through the first jab hit animation & stops
• your character goes along & finishes it's jab combo with Jab2 only, or Jab2 → Jab3
• Other result insert here

Then after you get a feel of this, you proceed with the next step, which is releasing & then holding the attack button again. This goes as follows with your character either:

• transitioning back to rapid jabbing with the first hit (common with Combat Walkers)
• nothing happening due to the character being unable to input a jab attack (kinda common)
• is Ryu & can't input the second jab attack on whiff because you're Ryu.

So with that said, here's the examples in spoiler text

CHARACTERS HOLDING A = RAPID JAB1 ||| RELEASING & THEN HOLDING A AGAIN = JAB2 → RAPID JAB1

Spoiler: Combat Walkers

Jab1: transitions into itself on frame 10
Jab2: transitions into Jab1 on frame 10


Jab1: transitions into itself on frame 10
Jab2: transitions into Jab1 on frame 18


Jab1: transitions into itself on frame 7
Jab2: transitions into Jab1 on frame 9


Jab1: transitions into itself on frame 8
Jab2: transitions into Jab1 on frame 14


Jab1: transitions into itself on frame 20
Jab2: transitions into Jab1 on frame 18


Jab1: transitions into itself on frame 6
Jab2: transitions into Jab1 on frame 10


Jab1: transitions into itself on frame 10
Jab2: transitions into Jab1 on frame 10


Jab1: transitions into itself on frame 11
Jab2: transitions into Jab1 on frame 12


Jab1: transitions into itself on frame 12
Jab2: transitions into Jab1 on frame 12


Jab1: transitions into itself on frame 13
Jab2: transitions into Jab1 on frame 14


Jab1: transitions into itself on frame 13
Jab2: transitions into Jab1 on frame 12


Jab1: transitions into itself on frame 19
Jab2: transitions into Jab1 on frame 19


Jab1: transitions into itself on frame 12
Jab2: transitions into Jab1 on frame 14

(0/0)
Jab1: transitions into itself on frame 9
Jab2: transitions into Jab1 on frame 10

(Guest aka 50/50)
Jab1: transitions into itself on frame 10
Jab2: transitions into Jab1 on frame 10

(100/100)
Jab1: transitions into itself on frame 12
Jab2: transitions into Jab1 on frame 10

CHARACTER HOLDING A = ENDLESS JAB1

Jab1: transitions into itself on frame 7


CHARACTERS HOLDING A = JAB1 → NOTHING

Spoiler: Dead Wallers

******

*Bayonetta has her bullet arts firing for a bit. So it's extra damage on top of the jab hitting.

**Meta Knight is exclusive because he's a rapid jab in itself.

CHARACTERS HOLDING A = JAB1 → JAB2 only

Spoiler: Lazy Characters

Jab2: transitions Jab1 into Jab2 on frame 19


Jab2: transitions Jab1 into Jab2 on frame 18


Jab2: transitions Jab1 into Jab2 on frame 23

****
Jab1: transitions into Jab2 on frame 12
Jab2: transitions into Jab1 on frame 11


Jab1: transitions into Jab2 on frame 23

**Villager is a constant wall. If you hold the attack button(s), you'll be executing Jab1 → Jab2 → Jab1 → Jab2, & so on and so on.

CHARACTERS HOLDING A = JAB1 → JAB2 → JAB3 ENDING COMBO

Spoiler: Heroes of Time?:confused:

&
Jab1: transitions into Jab2 on frame 17
Jab2: transitions into Jab3 on frame 17


Jab1: transitions into Jab2 on frame 20
Jab2: transitions into Jab3 on frame 20

(0/0)
Jab1: transitions into Jab2 on frame 19
Jab2: transitions into Jab3 on frame 19

(Guest aka 50/50)
Jab1: transitions into Jab2 on frame 20
Jab2: transitions into Jab3 on frame 20

(100/100)
Jab1: transitions into Jab2 on frame 23
Jab2: transitions into Jab3 on frame 23

CHARACTERS HOLDING A = RAPID JAB1 ||| RELEASING & THEN HOLDING A = JAB2 → NOTHING

Spoiler: Halfway there to being Combat-like

Jab1: transitions into itself on frame 7
Jab2: cannot transition into Jab1


Jab1: transitions into itself on frame 12
Jab2: cannot transition into Jab1


Jab1: transitions into itself on frame 7
Jab2: cannot transition into Jab1


Jab1: transitions into itself on frame 17
Jab2: cannot transition into Jab1

Note: is weird. You can never get Jab2 on whiff, so holding a gets you medium jab, but repeating taps & holding of attack button in a particular way to being labbed under these conditions has it to where he transitions his light jab into another jab animation on frame 16. It's up to you on whether you want that second jab to be light or medium. So bye for now!

 

[8383d3 90 90 10 hundred]

Hello hello.

I want the full scoop on hitstun, jump, and airdodge.

Can you really airdodge earlier out of hitstun than you can jump??

Or, is it rather just that disjointed hitboxes catch the jump as it's rising ?

Couldn't find a post for this. Lemme know if there is one.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Hello hello.

I want the full scoop on hitstun, jump, and airdodge.

Can you really airdodge earlier out of hitstun than you can jump??

Or, is it rather just that disjointed hitboxes catch the jump as it's rising ?

Couldn't find a post for this. Lemme know if there is one.

Over a year ago I discovered that you can airdodge out of hitstun before all other options with medium to high knockback. But there's more to it than that as was found later. I typically just link people to this post so they can get an idea of what they're dealing with. https://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-44#post-20106322

 

[Radical Larry]

So as I was just messing around with characters and stuff with fake ledge trumping, and I kind of found something peculiar while I did so. So we know how we can run off the stage and perform a transition, and while we can buffer most aerials, the one we usually have to make sure not to have directional input is N-Air, and so there's going to be a bit of lag [usually 3 to 7 frames depending on how fast you react]. However, while I was testing out the fake ledge trumping and tried to do some dash attacks near the ledge, I ended up performing a lagless transition into N-Air and the air at the same time.

So I went ahead to test it out even further and found out that during some frames of a character's initial dash [or dash in general], if you press C-Stick Forward, you actually get a completely lagless transition into N-Air. Now I've tried it with the other C-Stick input directions, but it only seems to work when you use it facing towards the edge you're going towards. So if you press Right when you're going to the right, it'll do the N-Air, and vice versa. This is still frame specific, since you can't do it too early or too late. You'd likely get a Dash Attack instead.

This is very easy to perform and is a very universal thing among characters. I'm just wondering, has anyone found out about this earlier? I'm probably going to end up spreading the word about this, because this might end up being a very scary thing when used by the right characters. I'll dub it "Dash to N-Air" for now until I get some more answers and whatnot.

 

[I speak Spanish too]

I've actually never heard of this. I've seen something similar with going into aerials from on stage with no lag though I think....?
https://youtu.be/8clzlN1GU90?list=PLFXOgPi6_N5Q1AR3Z9l549HBoZzpBAz0h&t=56

 

[Yikarur]

This is known since week 1 I think.

 

[Radical Larry]

This is known since week 1 I think.

Buffering an instantaneous N-Air off ledge with C-Stick forward?

 

[DanGR]

I was looking into applications of that 'slip edge' technique. I found that if you stand on the edge, face inward, and perfect pivot towards the ledge, you get the same effect without the requirement (a requirement according to the slip edge video) of first performing an attack/dodge towards the edge. Is this at all new?

https://twitter.com/DanGR_Smash/status/798675148509319168

edit: also, why can't I perform this while facing towards the ledge? Why would 1 frame of turn-around be necessary?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Somewhere, Cloud mains shivered thinking on the potential applications of this.

 

[I speak Spanish too]

Let's say I'm lucina right and im against a zss.
If I perfect shield her jab, and then jab back will my jab come faster then her next jab? Granted the ZSS is mashing A

 

[Locke 06]

Let's say I'm lucina right and im against a zss.
If I perfect shield her jab, and then jab back will my jab come faster then her next jab? Granted the ZSS is mashing A

Yes, according to this reliable frame data sheet. Between jabs are 12 frames (f2-11 of jab1 and f1 of jab2) and there are 2 blockstun frames from jab1 (might be reduced to 1 due to powershield).