Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[Pixel_]

nvm doesn't affect knockback: https://m.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2h51un/bowser_jr_takes_different_amounts_of_damage/

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Well, Bowser jr taking more or less damage does have an indirect effect on knockback scaling. So yes, his crouch cancelling should be improved just a bit if his kart takes the damage instead of his body.

As for crawling, as soon as you start crawling, you lose the benefits of crouching. I once believed that crouch canceling is still in effect for at least the first few frames of a crawl when testing Bowser's Tough Guy mechanic (which has increased effectiveness when crouching and staying still). But it didn't seem correct after extensive testing trying to inch my way into a move he could armor when crouching.

 

[Vipermoon]

Wait what is Bowser's resistance to knockback when he is standing vs moving? You would think running would resist him the most IRL

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Wait what is Bowser's resistance to knockback when he is standing vs moving? You would think running would resist him the most IRL

Bowser's Tough Guy armor is a character specific mechanic. It is active at all times and functions like knockback based - "heavy armor". If a move deals an amount of knockback lower than a certain threshold, damage and hitlag are delivered, but Bowser himself will not flinch or be interrupted in any way. The threshold is very small, but by crouching, you can reduce the knockback delivered to Bowser and bring some moves under that threshold when they otherwise wouldn't be, like Falco's blaster.

 

[Lavani]

Are there specials other than Fox/Falco upB that can be B-reversed twice?

I think I looked into it a long time ago and didn't find any others, but I might've missed something.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Are there specials other than Fox/Falco upB that can be B-reversed twice?

I think I looked into it a long time ago and didn't find any others, but I might've missed something.

You mean the Firefox boomerang thing? Mewtwo can technically do it on DL and Lylat, although it is because of slopes and not an input.

 

[Lavani]

You mean the Firefox boomerang thing? Mewtwo can technically do it on DL and Lylat, although it is because of slopes and not an input.

More of a Z, but that's what sparked my interest, yeah.

I'm strictly asking about stuff performed with a second input though, since the odd interaction with the ground is actually caused by Fox being turned around by a B-reverse during the first couple frames of the actual movement part of the attack. I don't think other characters would get the awkward physics, but it might have niche applications like backwards ledge cancels or something.

 

[Kofu]

Are there specials other than Fox/Falco upB that can be B-reversed twice?

I think I looked into it a long time ago and didn't find any others, but I might've missed something.

Mii Gunner's Grenade Launch can be B-reversed up to three times (IIRC) while holding the charge.

 

[Pixel_]

Wait, I'm confused. This isn't a wavebounce?

 

[Vipermoon]

Wait, I'm confused. This isn't a wavebounce?

Nah. A wavebounce is a turn-around B, then a B-reverse.

I had no idea some specials could be B-reversed multiple times though. Pretty cool.

 

[Masonomace]

I know that Back Slash can be reversed a total of three times, but we're talking about Up Specials & not Side Specials. Still wanted to briefly share that~

 

[Pixel_]

I know that Back Slash can be reversed a total of three times, but we're talking about Up Specials & not Side Specials. Still wanted to briefly share that~

video pls

 

[Sonicninja115]

Do we have frame data for move canceled grabs? Boost Grab and RCG? I mainly want input information, but if we have everything then I would love to have it.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Do we have frame data for move canceled grabs? Boost Grab and RCG? I mainly want input information, but if we have everything then I would love to have it.

I don't know if the frame data has ever been gathered, but I got it just then in under a minute using frame skips... which anyone could have done at any point...

You can cancel the second and third frames of a dash attack with a grab.

And to get a roll cancelled grab (RCG) you must first input a forward roll out of an initial dash, so first dash, then hit shield on frame 2 to 6 of the dash, then hit grab (or hold shield and hit 'A') on frames 2 to 3 of the forward roll.

Note that the RCG and the dash attack cancelled grab is actually a dash grab, not a standing grab. Interestingly enough however, with the RCG, it can only be a dash grab. Even if you input a pivot grab as part of a RCG, you will always get at least one frame of a dash grab out of the roll and then you'll cancel the dash grab on the following frame by starting a pivot grab. This is actually beneficial as you'll often get a nice boost out of canceling the dash grab with a pivot grab, and this ensures it.

 

[Stryker95]

So I was testing stuff for catching items like Link's bombs and Diddy's bananas and found this:
Using Fox Is Openly Deceptive work from catching items in the air with z or airdodge, I looked at catching items with the A button. First I found that it appears that items can only be caught with Dash Attack, Jab, DTilt, and FTilt. I then found the range for a catch (unfortunately I am unable to put it in units as that kind of stuff goes over my head) on my custom stage, but imagine it as a 5 frame bubble (Keep in mind this is for Link's bomb thrown normally, it really depends on the item speed of the item thrown). I then looked at whether or not an item could be caught during active frames.

Ok, so if a Jab, DTilt, or FTilt is inputted 5 frames before the item will connect, the item can be caught. But if the move is inputted 6 frames before, the move animation will begin and nothing can be caught.
However, if one does a dash attack, the item can be caught and the move will still come out.
Why this matters is in a situation like this:
Diddy is holding a banana and in shield. Link hits the shield with a move that has -5 on shield. Diddy's banana toss out of shield comes out on frame 7. While Link has 2 frames before the item is thrown, that is not enough time to actually hit Diddy, but he can catch the Banana rather than shield or go for another defensive option and possibly use it to his advantage.

 

[Vipermoon]

So I was testing stuff for catching items like Link's bombs and Diddy's bananas and found this:
Using Fox Is Openly Deceptive work from catching items in the air with z or airdodge, I looked at catching items with the A button. First I found that it appears that items can only be caught with Dash Attack, Jab, DTilt, and FTilt. I then calculated how fast we could catch an item using a method similar to this and found that it is also a frame 1-5 window. I then found the range for a catch (unfortunately I am unable to put it in units as that kind of stuff goes over my head) on my custom stage. I then looked at whether or not an item could be caught during active frames.

Using Peach's jab (3-4) it looked like it could not be caught during active frames and Peach would be hit. If caught on frame 1, catch animation would begin with no active frames with it. If caught after frame 1 the move will still come out and the bomb will be caught. Also, it looks like items cannot be caught with smashes or UTilt.
So it seems like items can be caught from frames 1-5 so long as they take longer than 5 frames to come out, otherwise it is frames 1-active frames. So this is the one instance where a slower attack may be better.
Why this matters is in a situation like this:
Diddy is holding a banana and in shield. Link hits the shield with a move that has -5 on shield. Diddy's banana toss out of shield comes out on frame 7. While Link has 2 frames before the item is thrown, that is not enough time to actually hit Diddy, but he can catch the Banana rather than shield or go for another defensive option and possibly use it to his advantage.

So a frame 1 jab cannot catch an item?

 

[Stryker95]

So a frame 1 jab cannot catch an item?

The frame 1 jab would be replaced by a catch.

 

[FLYING 7UR7LE]

This has no applications, but does anyone else know how to do a slowed down version of a fighter's dash animation?

 

[Pixel_]

This has no applications, but does anyone else know how to do a slowed down version of a fighter's dash animation?

https://youtu.be/xdH4mHmQdgc
You can also input a run, then slide the control stick diagonally down, but if you angle it too low, it'll turn into a crouch.

 

[Kofu]

This has no applications, but does anyone else know how to do a slowed down version of a fighter's dash animation?

I dunno man, running in place at the ledge is handy for characters whose dash attacks can hit characters on the ledge.

Plus it looks hilarious.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Do we have frame data for Links shield? Specifically frame advantage when compared to shield?

 

[Yikarur]

KuroganeHammer The calculator in your website tells me that a move with 0% for both parties does less knockback in Vs. than in Training Mode. Can you explain that?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Did you put the stale multiplier in

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Do we have frame data for Links shield? Specifically frame advantage when compared to shield?

A while ago (note the date) I did some tests. I'm not sure how relevant they still are though.
http://smashboards.com/threads/link...-found-in-the-op.379659/page-36#post-20534305
http://smashboards.com/threads/link...-found-in-the-op.379659/page-35#post-20469537

 

[Yikarur]

Did you put the stale multiplier in

I left the feld empty. I tested it and apparently leaving empty = 0. I thought it would 1,05 it by default.



Can someone extract and read stage files for the exact data on blastzones of stages? All data we have is extremely vague and not 100% correct. If we could just read the values in the files, we would have 100% accurate information.

 

[Horseketchup]

Does anyone by chance know what exactly is happening mechanically for the bidou techs "stuttered run" and "quick step"?

Quick step: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mH528Pdh1Rk#t=3m34s

Stuttered Run: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mH528Pdh1Rk#t=5m28s

For quick step it seems like what's happening (but I'm not sure) is:

- Max length initial dash forward > shorter length dash dance back > 1 frame turnaround input to put you in standing position and halt backwards momentum

Stuttered run though, for some reason a single frame upwards input while running puts you in a short skid which you can instantly begin running out of again, but I don't really understand why exactly. Run movement in this game has some interesting properties in general.

(edit: I'm guessing the upward input cancels out the forwards run input momentarily, but it seems strange how you can go into a skid and then continue directly into the run again)

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Does anyone by chance know what exactly is happening mechanically for the bidou techs "stuttered run" and "quick step"?

The 'quick step' is essentially a perfect pivot out of a dash dance. The distance gained forward is dependent on the initial dash not being interrupted with the dash back for as long as possible then having the dash back interrupted by the pivot as soon as possible. So best possible scenario (with normal controls): you dash forwards, on the 6th frame of the forward dash you dash back, then on the third* frame of the dash back you pivot by hitting the joystick back in the original direction you started in for one frame only.
*yes it must be the third frame. It's impossible to do on the first frame, and if you do it on the second frame, the 'dash back' will turn into a mere pivot, having only been held for one frame.

The mechanics of the 'stuttered run' are tied to the character's short skid animation and the way that movement inputs, while potentially controlled by two sources, can only be controlled using one at any one time, with the a/b/c-stick overriding the joystick (in the case of the a/b-stick for one frame, and in the case of the c-stick for as long as it is held).
So the inputs the game is receiving in the case of a stuttered run are 'smash forwards', 'smash up for one frame', then on the following frame it is receiving a 'fully held forwards' input, and in order to get from fully up to fully forwards in one frame that must have been a 'smash forwards' input, and at this point it's just a matter of waiting out the very short skid animation till the second 'smash forwards' input gets turned into a buffered dash. This can of course be done with the A-stick as well, and the mechanic is not limited to using the skid animation either, e.g. you can do a dash item throw using the C-stick with Link, and so long as you don't release the C-stick before frame 8 while continuing to hold forwards on the joystick, it will buffer a dash.

 

[Horseketchup]

The 'quick step' is essentially a perfect pivot out of a dash dance. The distance gained forward is dependent on the initial dash not being interrupted with the dash back for as long as possible then having the dash back interrupted by the pivot as soon as possible. So best possible scenario (with normal controls): you dash forwards, on the 6th frame of the forward dash you dash back, then on the third* frame of the dash back you pivot by hitting the joystick back in the original direction you started in for one frame only.
*yes it must be the third frame. It's impossible to do on the first frame, and if you do it on the second frame, the 'dash back' will turn into a mere pivot, having only been held for one frame.

The mechanics of the 'stuttered run' are tied to the character's short skid animation and the way that movement inputs, while potentially controlled by two sources, can only be controlled using one at any one time, with the a/b/c-stick overriding the joystick (in the case of the a/b-stick for one frame, and in the case of the c-stick for as long as it is held).
So the inputs the game is receiving in the case of a stuttered run are 'smash forwards', 'smash up for one frame', then on the following frame it is receiving a 'fully held forwards' input, and in order to get from fully up to fully forwards in one frame that must have been a 'smash forwards' input, and at this point it's just a matter of waiting out the very short skid animation till the second 'smash forwards' input gets turned into a buffered dash. This can of course be done with the A-stick as well, and the mechanic is not limited to using the skid animation either, e.g. you can do a dash item throw using the C-stick with Link, and so long as you don't release the C-stick before frame 8 while continuing to hold forwards on the joystick, it will buffer a dash.

Hell yea this is the kind of response I was hoping for, really thorough explanation man. I thought for some reason that each run after the stutter was going straight into a run, but it makes more sense that it's a dash input being buffered. So this is possible with all lengths of skids, just less practical? Good to know that you can do this with a/b stick too though, definitely gonna experiment with this more.

And for quick step now I realize that I've seen this peppered in outside of bidou, mostly when players are messin around between stocks lol. I just wasn't sure that it was the same thing.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

So this is possible with all lengths of skids, just less practical?

If you're talking about using the particular method outlined in the video, then it's only for skids that are short enough, so like 11 frames max presumably (? really not sure.).
Edit: well that can't be right because it works for Charizard and he's able to re-dash on the 13th frame of his skid... so probably 12 frames max.
Whatever. It doesn't matter.

 

[A10theHero]

How would I account for gravity when calculating vertical knockback (also for knockback that has both a horizontal and vertical component)?
Based KuroganeHammer's website doesn't have any formulas mentioning gravity. But I did find a formula on Smash Wiki that says to just add (g - 0.075) * 5 to the vertical component of knockback, though I'm kinda skeptical about it.

 

[meticulousboy]

I have a question. I noticed sometimes in Vs. Mode that some FRESH attacks do one percent MORE than their base damage. What exactly is the cause of this?

 

[A10theHero]

I have a question. I noticed sometimes in Vs. Mode that some FRESH attacks do one percent MORE than their base damage. What exactly is the cause of this?

Fresh attacks do x1.05 the normal damage.
So, for example, an aerial Thunder Jolt does 4.8% in Training Mode. That's its base damage. But a fresh aerial Thunder Jolt in regular play does 4.8 * 1.05 = 5.04%. And because only the digits to the left of the decimal place are displayed, in Training Mode it says it does 4% while in regular Smash, it'll do 5% when fresh.

 

[meticulousboy]

Fresh attacks do x1.05 the normal damage.
So, for example, an aerial Thunder Jolt does 4.8% in Training Mode. That's its base damage. But a fresh aerial Thunder Jolt in regular play does 4.8 * 1.05 = 5.04%. And because only the digits to the left of the decimal place are displayed, in Training Mode it says it does 4% while in regular Smash, it'll do 5% when fresh.

Thank you. I figured it had something to do with decimals. I am always paying attention to percents, and a multiplier of 1.05 already sounds meta-changing.

 

[8383d3 90 90 10 hundred]

anti-bidou ? tilt stick bidou? caught wind of this. can any1 enlighten?

 

[A10theHero]

anti-bidou ? tilt stick bidou? caught wind of this. can any1 enlighten?

Bidou seems to work because holding down Special turns the Special Stick into a directional input. With Tilt Stick, holding down Attack then also turns the C-Stick into a directional input, but it's more like half of an input.

I've heard you can do Bidou with Smash Stick as well, but it requires holding down Attack and Special and having A+B Smash on.

 

[8383d3 90 90 10 hundred]

Bidou seems to work because holding down Special turns the Special Stick into a directional input. With Tilt Stick, holding down Attack then also turns the C-Stick into a directional input, but it's more like half of an input.

I've heard you can do Bidou with Smash Stick as well, but it requires holding down Attack and Special and having A+B Smash on.

yeah this i understood. the tilt stick directional inputs are not strong enough to help with perfect pivoting etc, so it's not quite what i'm looking for.

 

[teluoborg]

The 'quick step' is essentially a perfect pivot out of a dash dance. The distance gained forward is dependent on the initial dash not being interrupted with the dash back for as long as possible then having the dash back interrupted by the pivot as soon as possible. So best possible scenario (with normal controls): you dash forwards, on the 6th frame of the forward dash you dash back, then on the third* frame of the dash back you pivot by hitting the joystick back in the original direction you started in for one frame only

Quick question : is it possible by altering slightly the timing to transform the dash dance > pp into a pp > turnaround ? Because that looks like it's what the Marth is doing in the video (notice the lack of dust effect) and that seems incredibly faster frame wise.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Quick question : is it possible by altering slightly the timing to transform the dash dance > pp into a pp > turnaround ? Because that looks like it's what the Marth is doing in the video (notice the lack of dust effect) and that seems incredibly faster frame wise.

The short answer is no. I did actually make some mention of this in the post you quoted, just slightly further down. I said that you cannot do the pivot out of the dash back too early otherwise the dash back would become a mere pivot (i.e. a PP).
The reason why I made the point of saying this is because if the intended dash back got turned into a mere pivot, it would stuff the whole thing up. This is so because you cannot pivot directly/immediately out of another pivot. You can however do certain moves (F-tilt/F-smash/Side-special/reversed specials) backwards directly out of a pivot, but things like Jab (as in the vid) will not be possible to do backwards directly out of a Pivot.
So no, Marth doing a Jab in the same direction he was facing after inching forwards (without walking) is not possible with a PP; it had to have been a quick-step.
As for the whole 'lack of dust cloud' point, it is perfectly possible to do a quick-step without causing the dust effect. The Marth in the vid would simply need to initially dash forwards for no more than 3 frames then dash back on the fourth, and the rest would be the same.

As for whether this quick-step thing will be better than simply walking forwards and hitting the A-stick diagonally to do your inching forwards into Jab, that will obviously depend on your character's walking speed/acceleration, but you should definitely look into this simple and effective method first before going off and trying anything else.

 

[Darklink401]

https://m.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/4lltzk/ally_wavelands_onto_dreamland/

So about this...ally basically 'wavelanded' onto the stage. It should have to do with the same mechanic that allows the lagless ledge getup, but Id expect him to have airdodge landing lag...instead he seemed to have been flashing with i-frames until midway into the backthrow?

 

[8383d3 90 90 10 hundred]

https://m.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/4lltzk/ally_wavelands_onto_dreamland/

So about this...ally basically 'wavelanded' onto the stage. It should have to do with the same mechanic that allows the lagless ledge getup, but Id expect him to have airdodge landing lag...instead he seemed to have been flashing with i-frames until midway into the backthrow?

seems like edge cancel to me https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnGQ7nl1Y1c&index=73&list=PLD9fiAYTZE10NSdz9_8qcNRHJY4gvVqJO