Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[sRocky]

It's been known for a long time, but it probably isn't the sort of thing most people are going to encounter. I first noticed it near release when I was trying to combo Wizard Foot ledge cancel > uair on Ganondorf and it'd always buffer nair instead. I'd consider it more of a nuisance than a tech in that regard, since it actually removes options for your first frame off the ledge.

Okay thanks for letting me know. This was the first time I had noticed it so I just wanted confirmation. While I do agree with you for the most part of it being a nuisance, I feel like it could benefit characters with a multi hit Nair such as Mewtwo or Palutena, or for characters with a wide arc like Shulk or Cloud.

 

[TombstoneHD]

I'm not sure if this is the place to ask this, but what characters do you guys think most benefit from Bidou and why?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

DI can affect whether you can "vector" or not. If you use a move above the "vectoring" launch angle threshold but you DI into that launch angle threshold, then you can "VI" the move as well.

 

[EnhaloTricks]

DI can affect whether you can "vector" or not. If you use a move above the "vectoring" launch angle threshold but you DI into that launch angle threshold, then you can "VI" the move as well.

What exactly does that mean in practice? I thought vectoring was removed...?

 

[Jams.]

DI can affect whether you can "vector" or not. If you use a move above the "vectoring" launch angle threshold but you DI into that launch angle threshold, then you can "VI" the move as well.

What is the vectoring launch angle threshold if you don't mind me asking? Also, I've heard that optimal DI can change the launch angle of a move by +/-15 degrees; is this correct?

 

[LancerStaff]

What exactly does that mean in practice? I thought vectoring was removed...?

Well, yes and no. Horizontal vectoring was removed and vertical vectoring only applies on certain angles now. Too far straight up or straight down you can't VI, if you were wondering. At more traditional angles it applies. Pre SSB4 optimal DI for something like a smash attack would be up and in IIRC, while in SSB4 it's just in because up makes you vector up and diagonally down doesn't DI you at all.

Pretty sure the Beefy Smash Doods has a video on how to DI things properly in SSB4 if you're wanting a more in-depth answer.

 

[Lavani]

What is the vectoring launch angle threshold if you don't mind me asking? Also, I've heard that optimal DI can change the launch angle of a move by +/-15 degrees; is this correct?

"Below 60° and not a meteor"

I'm not sure if the 60° is for sure verified, but it's definitely around there as I can confirm what KH was talking about off a 70° move.

What exactly does that mean in practice? I thought vectoring was removed...?

It was removed for vertical hits, and weakened elsewhere.

"Vectoring" is a misnomer though, since all that's actually happening is holding up/down increases/decreases knockback, while left/right are still standard DI inputs.

 

[Chiroz]

"Below 60° and not a meteor"

I'm not sure if the 60° is for sure verified, but it's definitely around there as I can confirm what KH was talking about off a 70° move.


It was removed for vertical hits, and weakened elsewhere.

"Vectoring" is a misnomer though, since all that's actually happening is holding up/down increases/decreases knockback, while left/right are still standard DI inputs.

No, for horizontal knockback, Left/Right is definitely Vectoring as it was discovered and is not a misnomer. It changes to standard DI on vertical knockback.

In general, for maximum survival, DI horizontal moves downwards and very slightly towards the stage ALWAYS. DI vertical moves downwards and slightly away from the stage ALWAYS (Except for perfectly vertical/90 degree moves which should be DIed COMPLETELY away).



I came here to ask: Didn't pummels refresh stale moves before? I am currently testing that out and it seems like they don't refresh stale moves more than once per grab, no matter how many pummels I can get off.

 

[epicnights]

I came here to ask: Didn't pummels refresh stale moves before? I am currently testing that out and it seems like they don't refresh stale moves more than once per grab, no matter how many pummels I can get off.

The entire animation of the pummel needs to be completed for the next pummel to go into the staling queue.

 

[Chiroz]

The entire animation of the pummel needs to be completed for the next pummel to go into the staling queue.

I did 30+ pummels on a 300% target, my move was still 9x stale.

 

[Lavani]

No, for horizontal knockback, Left/Right is definitely Vectoring as it was discovered and is not a misnomer. It changes to standard DI on vertical knockback.

In general, for maximum survival, DI horizontal moves downwards and very slightly towards the stage ALWAYS. DI vertical moves downwards and slightly away from the stage ALWAYS (Except for perfectly vertical/90 degree moves which should be DIed COMPLETELY away).

No, it absolutely is a misnomer. Unless you can prove to me otherwise, but we have evidence to the contrary already:

Holding up does alter the distance you travel though. Everyone has been saying that.

So here we have flight paths for DI'ing left, right, and no DI at all. Notice how they're all the same distance from Luigi when going in a straight line to him? Only your trajectory changes when holding left or right. There's no knockback reduction what-so-ever. Holding left only makes you live longer due to it making your trajectory higher. Now when we DI up...

There's a huge increase in knockback and a higher trajectory due to DI'ing up. The Jigglypuff in the middle has a slightly increased knockback than the other two because you're holding up higher than the other directions. The big knockback increase is what kills you earlier.

With DI'ing down there's a decrease in knockback in addition to a much lower trajectory. Again, the Jigglypuff in the middle has a slightly more reduction due to holding down further than the other directions. While the knockback reduction seems nice, you're still going to die early because of the lower trajectory bringing you closer to the blast zone. Although, in some situtations, DI'ing down can make you live longer.

So vectoring doesn't exist, but there's a different mechanic that affects your knockback distance depending on which direction you're holding. Holding up increases your knockback and holding down decreases it. It's as simple as that.

Your DI isn't optimal either. DIing in only is usually the best option against horizontal KB. Down and in is only best if you're headed directly into the corner. ≤74° moves sending you above the corner should be DIed down and away, 75~90° should be DIed fully away.

I came here to ask: Didn't pummels refresh stale moves before? I am currently testing that out and it seems like they don't refresh stale moves more than once per grab, no matter how many pummels I can get off.

Like epicnights said, you need to wait for the entire animation to finish. If you just mash pummels out as fast as the game lets you, they don't move into the stale move queue.

 

[Chiroz]

No, it absolutely is a misnomer. Unless you can prove to me otherwise, but we have evidence to the contrary already:


Your DI isn't optimal either. DIing in only is usually the best option against horizontal KB. Down and in is only best if you're headed directly into the corner. 60~74° should be DIed down and away, 75~90° should be DIed fully away.


Like epicnights said, you need to wait for the entire animation to finish. If you just mash pummels out as fast as the game lets you, they don't move into the stale move queue.

I will probably have to make a video about this. I've already shown this to quite a good number of people who post in these threads including one of the guys who was a source for the data that vectoring was removed back in 1.0.4 and after 2 days of testing he told me I was right.

I haven't tested this since about patch 1.1.1 or something similar, but I am fairly certain this hasn't changed since that one patch where everyone was claiming "vectoring was removed".

I will test it out right now in a second.



Thanks for the pummel information btw, I'll also test that out right now.



Edit: You cannot "DI in" a horizontal move.... You can only Vector in. In your own example you're already telling me I am right.

DI can only be done on an angle perpendicular to the angle you are being knocked against, you cannot do it on a parallel angle. This was the whole point why it was given a new name "Vectoring" instead of just sticking to "DI".

 

[Jams.]

Like epicnights said, you need to wait for the entire animation to finish. If you just mash pummels out as fast as the game lets you, they don't move into the stale move queue.

I was under the impression that some characters could have multiple pummels enter the stale move queue even if they were mashed due to their slow pummel speed (see spoiler), is this not the case?

Spoiler

Hi. I’m DRAFIX, Japanese player. (Sorry for my poor English)
These character’s stale is refreshed only once by a sequence of grab attacks.
(Enough interval allow every time refreshing, but good interval is uncommon)

Peach, Yoshi, Rosalina, BowserJR, Donkey, Diddy, Mac, Link, ToonLink, Samus, ZSS, Pit, Palutena, Marth, Ike, Kirby, DDD, Fox, Falco, Pikachu, Charizard, Lucario, Jigglypuff, R.O.B., Ness, CF, DarkPit, Lucina, Pac-man, Sonic, Mewtwo, Lucas, Roy, Ryu, Corrin

 

[Chiroz]

I was under the impression that some characters could have multiple pummels enter the stale move queue even if they were mashed due to their slow pummel speed (see spoiler), is this not the case?

I was playing as Charizard, so that explains it.

 

[Lavani]

I was under the impression that some characters could have multiple pummels enter the stale move queue even if they were mashed due to their slow pummel speed (see spoiler), is this not the case?

That sounds likely, I only initially noticed it with and didn't bother checking other characters. Brief testing with Greninja supports his slow-as-molasses pummel does stale normally mashed.

Thanks for the list, I missed that post.

 

[Chiroz]

That sounds likely, I only initially noticed it with and didn't bother checking other characters. Brief testing with Greninja supports his slow-as-molasses pummel does stale normally mashed.

Thanks for the list, I missed that post.

Tested Jiggz Down-Smash. Charizard can survive up to about 210% with DI in from player 1 spawn point on SV. With a 240 degree angle (mostly Downwards with slightly towards the stage) I didn't even reach the blast zone at 210%.

In case Jiggz D-Smash is too horizontal for you: Tested Mario's D-Smash from the same location (Player 1 Spawn Point) and knocking them towards the other direction. With DI in Charizard dies at 126%. With an angle of 300, Charizard can still survive at 128%.

All of this tested at 1/4th speed while taunting with Charizard and pressing no input BUT the DI and letting go after the character is already flying.



In this game, DIng down reduces all horizontal knockback, that's just the way it works. DIng up increases it, you wrote this yourself. There is NO horizontal DI for horizontal knockback moves, there is ONLY vectoring.

If you remember the original vectoring post, vectoring cares not for angles, it only cares for directions. They completely removed vertical vectoring, so vectoring only account for either +x or -x. As such doing a 89 degree angle is the same as doing a 1 degree angle, they are both +x. Doing a 269 degree angle is the same as doing a 91 degree angle, they are both -x.

What you want to do is vector towards the stage while DIng as much as possible downwards, basically 269 or 271 degrees are the 2 best survival DIs for horizontal knockback moves.



Edit: The post you quoted literally proves me right. And the guy right below it "Openly Deceptive Fox" Literally says: "This is what has always been known as vectoring". Why would you refute my claim if you are quoting a post that says exactly the same thing I am.

All those pictures are from vertical knockback too since you are being killed off the top, so the correct DI would be Down and very slightly away as I said before, basically a 271 degree angle would be optimal in that scenario. He only held 270 and 315, nothing in between (and his results showed 315 was better, which I agree with). Holding anything in between 270 and 315 would be even more optimal. The closer to 270 the better.

 

[Lavani]

What's erroneous is calling it vectoring, because if you were actually applying a vector to the knockback you would just always hold directly toward the stage for max survival. It's obvious this isn't the case, because holding left/right only changes your trajectory and not your actual knockback distance.

It was this way pre-1.0.0 too, the only differences were that it worked with all moves and the knockback increase/decrease for holding up/down was more pronounced.

Tested Mario's D-Smash from the same location (Player 1 Spawn Point) and knocking them towards the other direction. With DI in Charizard dies at 126%. With an angle of 300, Charizard can still survive at 128%.

Looking at these percents in hindsight I'm guessing this was either tested with a smaller stage than FD or with the back hit of dsmash, but I copypasted the front hit onto a Bob-omb. First gif is holding left, second is down+left (300°):

 

[Chiroz]

What's erroneous is calling it vectoring, because if you were actually applying a vector to the knockback you would just always hold directly toward the stage for max survival. It's obvious this isn't the case, because holding left/right only changes your trajectory and not your actual knockback distance.

It was this way pre-1.0.0 too, the only differences were that it worked with all moves and the knockback increase/decrease for holding up/down was more pronounced.

If this was the case, then why does holding left on horizontal moves help you survive? If it only changes the trajectory and doesn't reduce the knockback at all then how exactly are you surviving longer?

The way it worked prepatch was that holding the stick left/right would ONLY reduce horizontal knockback, while holding it up/down would ONLY reduce vertical knockback (Holding it diagonally would reduce both and was optimal).

Vertical Vectoring was removed, so there's NO WAY to reduce vertical knockback, but HORIZONTAL vectoring is still in the game and is the reason why holding towards the stage allows you to survive a horizontal knockback move, because it reduces the knockback on X.

If you believe this isn't right then explain how holding towards the stage allows you to survive horizontal knockback longer than holding Up/Down, since as we know DI cannot be done on a parallel direction AND is most efficient when holding towards a corner of the stage (in previous games)

Looking at these percents in hindsight I'm guessing this was either tested with a smaller stage than FD or with the back hit of dsmash, but I copypasted the front hit onto a Bob-omb. First gif is holding left, second is down+left (300°):

There's a second reason why characters can die earlier or later; launch animations:

Here's the post so that you can read up on it: http://smashboards.com/threads/wii-u-stage-blastzone-data.408643/

Read the first page of the thread fully. It explains perfectly why Charizard died first on the bottom video.

TL;DR: Reeling animation can kill a character 5-10% earlier or allow him to survive 5-10% later because the hurtbox shifts location. For Charizard, the reeling animation helps him survive longer. If you notice in your first video Charizard goes into reeling animation, but in the second one he doesn't. Has nothing to do with DI/Vectoring.



Also judging by the launch angles I am fairly certain you weren't holding 225 degrees (Don't know where you got 300 from Down + Left), it's too close to perfectly horizontal. Try holding 240-250 degrees (in between the diagonal and downwards ridges of the control stick octagon).

Edit 2: Also, judging by the movement of the character it seems you kept holding the direction after the hit. You do realize this affects the outcome right? There's drifting which is "accelerating" towards the direction your stick is in. If your stick is completely towards the stage then you'll accelerate much faster towards the stage and obviously survive longer, but this isn't due to DI/Vectoring.

In order to do this test correctly, you have to let go of the stick as soon as the character is in the air. Try redoing the test in 1/4th speed so that you can more accurately let go of the direction when your character starts flying.



Note: Just for the record: I tested on SV with the back hit of both Jiggz and Mario's D-Smash from the P1 spawn point (not the center). Jiggz launched the opponent towards the right, Mario towards the left, just to test both directions.

 

[Lavani]

If this was the case, then why does holding left on horizontal moves help you survive? If it only changes the trajectory and doesn't reduce the knockback at all then how exactly are you surviving longer?

Because a positive change in trajectory far outweighs a slight decrease in knockback that comes with a negative change in trajectory (more direct path to the blast zone).

There's a second reason why characters can die earlier or later; launch animations:

Fully aware of this. Doesn't change the fact that holding left is better than down or down+left.

Try holding 240-250 degrees (in between the diagonal and downwards ridges of the control stick octagon).

Dies at 135% even with the better knockback animation.

 

[Chiroz]

Because a positive change in trajectory far outweighs a slight decrease in knockback that comes with a negative change in trajectory (more direct path to the blast zone).

Holding left does not change your trajectory more than holding upwards would, what are you talking about? Try holding Up and see if you die later, let me know the results. If you are going to keep saying this isn't vectoring then explain to me exactly why holding up is bad?


Edit 2: Try a perfectly horizontal move like Jiggz D-Smash or something close like Charizard's D-Smash. Try not pressing anything and then try pressing towards the stage: Notice how the trajectory doesn't change almost at all? Now explain, why do you survive so much longer by pressing towards the stage if the trajectory has no change?

Fully aware of this. Doesn't change the fact that holding left is better than down or down+left.

It completely invalidates your video.

Dies at 135% even with the better knockback animation.

Try actually testing it, because I have already done this test at least 20 times in the past. The post you quoted LITERALLY says I am right, and almost everything I've read in the thread points to me being right.

Edit: And again, remember to stop pressing the direction right after the character starts flying - Drifting makes a huge difference.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

This whole discussion is why "vectoring" is a terrible term.

 

[Chiroz]

This whole discussion is why "vectoring" is a terrible term.

Actually, in my opinion, this whole discussion is only a thing because people didn't want to understand that Vectoring should have been it's own term. It created incredibly amounts of confusion which leads people to believe a lot of stuff they read back in that day to be right, when it's actually wrong.

To this date most of the Smash community doesn't know how to correctly survive attacks when it's as simple as an A/B/C choice. All because people just weren't willing to view Vectoring as it's own mechanic.



I don't care what the name could/should have been, but it definitely needed a name to separate it from DI IMO, but all those discussions back then made people forever associate it with DI and forever create infinite amounts of confusion.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Or people could have prefaced things by saying "DI works differently in Smash 4 than x Smash game." Vectoring as the name of the mechanic makes zero sense/is not intuitive to the layman.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Chiroz]

Or people could have prefaced things by saying "DI works differently in Smash 4 than x Smash game." Vectoring as the name of the mechanic makes zero sense/is not intuitive to the layman.

Smooth Criminal

DI is still in the game though and works exactly as it did before with much less effect, so technically DI doesn't work differently. There's just a new mechanic that is stronger than DI.

My point is most of the Smash community doesn't realize exactly what I just said. I feel as though the reason was the presentation of it.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

u didn't prove anything, Lavani threw evidence at u and u put ur fingers in ur ears and chucked it out the window

vectoring is quite literally just a DI overhaul and it's tragic that the name stuck because it's confusing and needlessly complicated

 

[Lavani]

Holding left does not change your trajectory more than holding upwards would, what are you talking about? Try holding Up and see if you die later, let me know the results. If you are going to keep saying this isn't vectoring then explain to me exactly why holding up is bad?

You die earlier holding up because it increases your knockback. If holding up were actually applying a vector, you should die at the same percent (same horizontal distance, vertical increased), but this isn't the case.

It completely invalidates your video.

It's only a 1% difference, so no it doesn't.

The post you quoted LITERALLY says I am right, and almost everything I've read in the thread points to me being right.

I have no idea what you're reading that makes you think this.

First of off, I don't think "vectoring" was really a thing in this game, not even before the patch. Holding up before knock back straight up increases your knock back by up to 20% depending on how far you're holding the control stick up, while holding down decreases it by up to 20%. The knock back reduction from holding down is separate from the knock back reduction you get from crouch canceling. Holding left or right have no effect on your knock back at all, but it still changes your trajectory. This why holding up to DI kills you earlier than no DI at all. Even though you're angling yourself up higher, you're also increasing your knock back by a lot which kills you. This is why you want to hold towards the stage. It's the only way to angle yourself up higher while not increases your knock back. So why doesn't holding down let you survive longer since it decreases knock back? It's because you're also angling yourself down which makes you travel almost completely horizontal that not even reduced knock back will help you survive, but it's still better than holding up or no DI at all.

This is how it works, this is how it's always worked, with the exception that it went from a 20% increase/decrease to 10% after 1.0.4.

I'm done here, I don't have the time or willpower to continue this.

 

[Chiroz]

u didn't prove anything, Lavani threw evidence at u and u put ur fingers in ur ears and chucked it out the window

vectoring is quite literally just a DI overhaul and it's tragic that the name stuck because it's confusing and needlessly complicated

I disproved all of his evidence, I quoted a thread that states specifically why the "proof" he showed is not accurate.


I also told him why the tests he did were not correct and asked him to retest. Neither of us has provided any evidence that's conclusive.

You die earlier holding up because it increases your knockback. If holding up were actually applying a vector, you should die at the same percent (same horizontal distance, vertical increased), but this isn't the case.

Holding down does not decrease your knockback more than a slight trajectory change, but holding up increases your knockback so much more than an even bigger trajectory change, seems convenient to prove your point.

Why does DIng in against perfectly horizontal moves work for survival if they inflict no trajectory change?

It's only a 1% difference, so no it doesn't.

What? The difference can be of 5% or more. The videos you posted definitely have different animations

I have no idea what you're reading that makes you think this.

Holding up does alter the distance you travel though. Everyone has been saying that.

So here we have flight paths for DI'ing left, right, and no DI at all. Notice how they're all the same distance from Luigi when going in a straight line to him? Only your trajectory changes when holding left or right. There's no knockback reduction what-so-ever. Holding left only makes you live longer due to it making your trajectory higher. Now when we DI up...

There's a huge increase in knockback and a higher trajectory due to DI'ing up. The Jigglypuff in the middle has a slightly increased knockback than the other two because you're holding up higher than the other directions. The big knockback increase is what kills you earlier.

With DI'ing down there's a decrease in knockback in addition to a much lower trajectory. Again, the Jigglypuff in the middle has a slightly more reduction due to holding down further than the other directions. While the knockback reduction seems nice, you're still going to die early because of the lower trajectory bringing you closer to the blast zone. Although, in some situtations, DI'ing down can make you live longer.

So vectoring doesn't exist, but there's a different mechanic that affects your knockback distance depending on which direction you're holding. Holding up increases your knockback and holding down decreases it. It's as simple as that.

^Exactly what I've been telling you since I got here.

This is how it works, this is how it's always worked, with the exception that it went from a 20% increase/decrease to 10% after 1.0.4.

I'm done here, I don't have the time or willpower to continue this.

You do realize that is the definition of Vectoring, right? Except for one thing, Vectoring did not change depending on how far the stick was tilted, it was always a 15-20%, there was no way for it to be less than that.

Openly Deceptive Fox even tells him that RIGHT AFTERWARDS. "This is what has always been known as Vectoring".

Edit: I think you are confusion Vectoring with another completely new mechanic: Holding Up - Increases Knockback, Holding Down - Decreases Knockback. This isn't Vectoring, and this was introduced in 1.0.4. Vectoring is another thing altogether.






Edit: Sorry for the double post.

Also, maybe tomorrow I'll make a video of the differences in DI/Vectoring are. I'll tag you once I do.

 

[Horseketchup]

So I downloaded the KuroganHammer calculator, really amazing tool but I just have a few questions.

I keep getting shieldstun values to come out as 1 frame higher than I'd expect. On the formula page it lists the shieldstun formula for normal attacks as:

- INT(d/1.72+3) -1

So if I plug in 13% to this equation, regardless of whether the staleness bonus is automatically applied or not, it should be:

INT(10.56 or 10.94) -1

In my mind this should come out as 9 frames of shieldstun no matter what order the rounding down happens, but on the calculator it comes out as 10 frames of shieldstun. It just seems odd that the formula isn't just: INT(d/1.72+2), but since the "-1" is separate I'm guessing I'm missing something with how this works? Are values.5 or higher rounded up instead of down?

Also how exactly should the staleness values be inputted? Do you just input something like "1.05" or ".92" or is there a special way to do it? Without a staleness value put in what is the default one? I can't seem to get it to affect my results.

EDIT: Actually with some messing around it seems like it does round up if the decimal is .5+, is this how it's supposed to work?

 

[Vipermoon]

I have the same issue for the staleness box. For example, what do you input for a fresh move? 1.05 is too high.

 

[K~G|Spacejam]

So I downloaded the KuroganHammer calculator, really amazing tool but I just have a few questions.

I keep getting shieldstun values to come out as 1 frame higher than I'd expect. On the formula page it lists the shieldstun formula for normal attacks as:

- INT(d/1.72+3) -1

So if I plug in 13% to this equation, regardless of whether the staleness bonus is automatically applied or not, it should be:

INT(10.56 or 10.94) -1

In my mind this should come out as 9 frames of shieldstun no matter what order the rounding down happens, but on the calculator it comes out as 10 frames of shieldstun. It just seems odd that the formula isn't just: INT(d/1.72+2), but since the "-1" is separate I'm guessing I'm missing something with how this works? Are values.5 or higher rounded up instead of down?

Also how exactly should the staleness values be inputted? Do you just input something like "1.05" or ".92" or is there a special way to do it? Without a staleness value put in what is the default one? I can't seem to get it to affect my results.

EDIT: Actually with some messing around it seems like it does round up if the decimal is .5+, is this how it's supposed to work?

hello i am programmer you might have the original version in which this was as an issue.

I just ran the version I have and it is showing 9 when I input 13%. So most likely you're running 1.0.0 and not 1.0.1 or whatever it is now.

Oops.

As for staleness fresh should be 1.05. To calculate how stale a move is pretty odd. I might make a mini guide for it since some people might be confused.

Anyways ty for using my calculator. Something special is coming soon(tm)

 

[Vipermoon]

hello i am programmer you might have the original version in which this was as an issue.

I just ran the version I have and it is showing 9 when I input 13%. So most likely you're running 1.0.0 and not 1.0.1 or whatever it is now.

Oops.

As for staleness fresh should be 1.05. To calculate how stale a move is pretty odd. I might make a mini guide for it since some people might be confused.

Anyways ty for using my calculator. Something special is coming soon(tm)

Hmm... when I tried 1.05 my knockback value was too high. I'll look at it again when I get home.

 

[Horseketchup]

hello i am programmer you might have the original version in which this was as an issue.

I just ran the version I have and it is showing 9 when I input 13%. So most likely you're running 1.0.0 and not 1.0.1 or whatever it is now.

Oops.

As for staleness fresh should be 1.05. To calculate how stale a move is pretty odd. I might make a mini guide for it since some people might be confused.

Anyways ty for using my calculator. Something special is coming soon(tm)

Oh nice already an update, thanks for the help and whatever special thing comes

 

[Vipermoon]

I have a general question for anyone unrelated to what's below. Is shield pushback based off of damage or shield stun? It sounds like it doesn't matter since shield stun is based off damage anyway, but it does because shield stun has a floor (always rounds down). So which is it? Thanks.

hello i am programmer you might have the original version in which this was as an issue.

I just ran the version I have and it is showing 9 when I input 13%. So most likely you're running 1.0.0 and not 1.0.1 or whatever it is now.

Oops.

As for staleness fresh should be 1.05. To calculate how stale a move is pretty odd. I might make a mini guide for it since some people might be confused.

Anyways ty for using my calculator. Something special is coming soon(tm)

I don't know what happened before (I've always had 1.1) but the freshness at 1.05 works as it should so we're good there.

But what about shield stun and advantage? Are the presented numbers for training or VS modes?

 

[K~G|Spacejam]

Pretty sure its based off of VS mode.

 

[Vipermoon]

Pretty sure its based off of VS mode.

Okay thanks. Let us know if it isn't. For a future version, maybe you can somehow incorporate both modes' stuns and advantages or have a switch to choose which you'd like displayed. That would be sweet but, of course, I don't know how much time you have for this.

 

[K~G|Spacejam]

The only reason why its not a web version yet is because I have no free time.

I don't see the point in shield advantage in training mode, theres no reason to find that out.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Going to confirm that there's no point in training mode shield advantage. But if you did want it that badly you could just leave the stale box blank because it defaults to 1.

 

[Vipermoon]

The only reason why its not a web version yet is because I have no free time.

I don't see the point in shield advantage in training mode, theres no reason to find that out.

Going to confirm that there's no point in training mode shield advantage. But if you did want it that badly you could just leave the stale box blank because it defaults to 1.

I was thinking for easier comparison purposes but now that I think about it, that isn't a big deal especially since there actually is no point training mode stuff.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

@Clamhat possibly discovered the other day that gravity doesn't affect hitstun. This is interesting to me, discuss.

Lavani you might be interested in this.

 

[Lavani]

While confirming that is and always has been the case, I found my testing tool (Deku Nut vs aerial) causes substantially more hitstun in older versions than the current (I believe it was roughly 74f hitstun to 90% Fox/Olimar in 1.0.0 vs ~58f in 1.1.5). Deku Nut's remained at 12% 80g/50b throughout the patches; unsure if there was a formula change at some point, if it was a change specifically to that attack element's hitstun (0xC), or something else entirely.

Probably either inconsequential or a super old change, but it caught my attention.