Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[TimeSmash]

i thought to get the most out of DI in this game you have to hold the analog stick 90 degrees and vector at the same time???

Semi-Incorrect. You just need to hold perpindicular to your knockback trajectory. Vectoring used to be in but has since been removed, and involved applying a "vector" of force in the opposite direction of where you were being sent. So if you were sent to the right, you'd vector to the left, but this is not used anymore

 

[Nate22Hill]

Semi-Incorrect. You just need to hold perpindicular to your knockback trajectory. Vectoring used to be in but has since been removed, and involved applying a "vector" of force in the opposite direction of where you were being sent. So if you were sent to the right, you'd vector to the left, but this is not used anymore

oh ok thks

 

[Pazx]

@ Nate22Hill @ TimeSmash I believe vectoring is still in the game to some extent as the best DI for Ness's back throw is holding completely horizontally. What I do is DI as in Melee/Brawl for primarily vertical trajectories and use a combination of vectoring and DI for primarily horizontal trajectories. I'm not sure if this is correct but it works for me. I'll do some testing, because I'm curious.

Also, momentum cancelling with aerial/airdodge/jump doesn't work in this game.

 

[Jaxas]

What I know about DI in Sm4sh

In a Combo: Hold Up. (Up = Increased Knockback, whatever direction you're hit)
Hit Horizontally: Hold towards the stage
Hit Vertically: Hold Down + the direction you're being hit

Here's a video as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6-HECDOn20&feature=youtu.be

 

[-RedX-]

Vertical vectoring is removed, horizontal is still slighlty in the game.

 

[Remzi]

All shields are frame 1, rolls are different.

I could swear shields were frame 2 in this game, and I thought you were my source for that haha. Am I crazy?

 

[Shaya]

I could swear shields were frame 2 in this game, and I thought you were my source for that haha. Am I crazy?

I was the source.
Shields animation "comes out" on frame 1.25 (or at 1/4th speed, on frame 5)
For god knows what reason.
Pretty sure it still registers from frame 1.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

What I know about DI in Sm4sh

In a Combo: Hold Up. (Up = Increased Knockback, whatever direction you're hit)
Hit Horizontally: Hold towards the stage
Hit Vertically: Hold Down + the direction you're being hit

So if I'm sent at a 45-degree angle away from the stage, I should hold Forward and not Up+Forward?

 

[Jaxas]

So if I'm sent at a 45-degree angle away from the stage, I should hold Forward and not Up+Forward?

I believe so, yes.
Definitely don't hold up, but I think you only hold forward if you're more worried about dying off the top; if you're getting hit up+right and hold right it sort of re-angles you (for the same end result as Melee/Brawl DI), but if you're going to be sent out the right blast line then I'd hold down (for placebo... easier to fast fall like that though) and left to lessen the horizontal knockback.

I'd recommend checking for yourself as well, though. I'm not 100% positive on this part.

 

[Rikkhan]

I dont know if its these are techs or just my imagination.

dash slide: I believe this one is real because someone in the greninja forum talk about amSa doing it. Basically while running you turn around and release the direction just before entering the turn around dash, this will cause your character to slide, while sliding you can do anything, jab or Fsmash will stop the sliding.

jump slide: pretty simple and similar to the first tech, you just jump and move to oposite direction your character is facing, you release the direction like 0.1 secs after landing. The character will slide.

reverse pivot: while running turn around and hold that direction until the character stop moving. at this point you can perform any action. So you can almost do a dash + Fsmash but there is a slight lag though.

 

[Lavani]

I dont know if its these are techs or just my imagination.

dash slide: I believe this one is real because someone in the greninja forum talk about amSa doing it. Basically while running you turn around and release the direction just before entering the turn around dash, this will cause your character to slide, while sliding you can do anything, jab or Fsmash will stop the sliding.

jump slide: pretty simple and similar to the first tech, you just jump and move to oposite direction your character is facing, you release the direction like 0.1 secs after landing. The character will slide.

reverse pivot: while running turn around and hold that direction until the character stop moving. at this point you can perform any action. So you can almost do a dash + Fsmash but there is a slight lag though.

dash slide = Perfect Pivot
jump slide = Crawl Slide (yes, being able to crawl is necessary; Diddy and Bowser can put it to good use after Monkey Flip and Dash Slash, respectively)

I'm not sure if there's a name for doing something off the momentum from pivoting, but it's a known thing.

 

[Rikkhan]

dash slide = Perfect Pivot
jump slide = Crawl Slide (yes, being able to crawl is necessary; Diddy and Bowser can put it to good use after Monkey Flip and Dash Slash, respectively)

I'm not sure if there's a name for doing something off the momentum from pivoting, but it's a known thing.

dash slide: it's not perfect pivot, actually I remember someone in the forums naming it "imperfect pivot", the diference is that you slide way more and its easier to do, the drawback is that the turn around has a slight moment of lag.
jump slide: no need for crouching, its not like sheik crouch slide its easier but probably its just a visual thing.

I'll better upload a video to show the techs (potato quality though...). By the way is there is a thread listing all the tech discovered?

 

[divade]

Is there a guide for ATa that near any character can perform? Like item juggling, dash dance etc? Hav8my trouble finding a good or forum.

 

[MrTeddyBear]

dash slide: it's not perfect pivot, actually I remember someone in the forums naming it "imperfect pivot", the diference is that you slide way more and its easier to do, the drawback is that the turn around has a slight moment of lag.

You mean this?

 

[Rikkhan]

You mean this?

yep seem like thats the one
here a example of the dash slide
http://gfycat.com/ContentFlusteredAlaskajingle
a video trying to replicate the the techs, I could have done better though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVHjsegDk04&ab_channel=RikkhanSmash

by the way the reverse pivot is for the ones that have high ending lag on running, or as way to bait the oponent.

 

[Lavani]

So, opening up the can of worms that is DI in this game,

It seems that we have traditional DI for vertical launches and "vectoring" for horizontal launches. Is there a known factor in what defines which type of DI is present for the attack? I assume it transitions at a certain angle (for example, something like 80-100° being influenced by traditional DI and other angles being vectoring) but I don't exactly have a good way to look into it on 3DS.

 

[LimitCrown]

Ness's back throw sends opponents at a 135-degree angle, so holding the control-stick at 45 degrees or 225 degrees would affect your trajectory the most if DI is the same as it was in Brawl. However, holding the control stick at a 45-degree angle would not seem to be the best choice, anyways, because you would be launched closer to the ceiling.

 

[Jonarobin]

I've read too many conflicting things about DI/Vectoring... What should I do to escape combos/survive at earlier percents exactly??

 

[MrTeddyBear]

I've read too many conflicting things about DI/Vectoring... What should I do to escape combos/survive at earlier percents exactly??

I think this video will help you.

Ignore the stuff after hitstun/hitlag until 1:30

 

[Flubz]

So while I was playing on my New 3DS XL in training mode, trying to frame cancel Falcon's Knee (without much success I might add lol) I discovered that if I held down before jumping, jumped and then performed any aerial with the C nipple at or after the peak of my jump, I would automatically fastfall while the aerial came out.

I don't particularly keep myself up to speed on newly discovered techniques, so I don't know if this may just be common knowledge or not

 

[Shaya]

You can buffer the fast fall early, probably up to 10 frames before the apex of your jump (most characters are around 20 frames for it).
BUT if you're saying it like you are (that c sticking an aerial remembers that fast fall well before hand), that is probably new.

 

[Flubz]

Here's a video:

 

[Teran]

Well I can't believe I'm asking this months on but can you airdodge out of hitstun?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Well I can't believe I'm asking this months on but can you airdodge out of hitstun?

Yes, you can. Your ability to drift is weak during said airdodge, but, yes.

 

[Teran]

Yes, you can. Your ability to drift is weak during said airdodge, but, yes.

Well that makes a lot of sense, also annoying as ****.

 

[LimitCrown]

Yes, you can. Your ability to drift is weak during said airdodge, but, yes.

This doesn't seem to be the case. I launched Mewtwo at high percentages with Bowser's fully-charged side smash attack in a test stage made to be difficult to KO characters. During the entire time that Mewtwo was in hitstun, I couldn't air dodge out of it.

 

[TimeSmash]

I thought you could airdodge out of tumble, not hitstun

 

[Big O]

Well I can't believe I'm asking this months on but can you airdodge out of hitstun?

As far as I can tell, the only time you can actually airdodge out of hitstun (early) is when you bounce off of something (like stage spikes or grounded Dairs). You might be able to airdodge a tiny bit earlier than hitstun would naturally end, but for the most part it is not like Brawl where past a certain point hitstun didn't really exist.

 

[Teran]

You seem to be able to airdodge out of Diddy's uthrow uair where it would otherwise register as a true combo

 

[LimitCrown]

For Mewtwo's forward throw, do the throw itself and each of the Shadow Balls that Mewtwo fires count as separate hits in the stale moves queue? This question also applies to Fox and Falco's throws.

 

[Jaycen_Thunda]

So... I used the search button and couldn't find the answer (unless my search terms sucked, if so please forgive me).

I come from a Street Fighter background, I understand frame advantage and have a basic understanding of the options my opponent has in frames. I can't seem to translate Street Fighter frame understanding to the Smash 4 frame understanding. There feels to be a lot of factors involved when attacking and defending.

In reference to frames,

How do I figure out if a move is "good" or not? (For example, In street fighter a 3 frame normal attack is usually considered good.)

How do I figure out if a move is "safe on shield" or not? ( In Street Fighter, when the opponent blocks and you attack, if you're minus frames on block, your opponent has a chance to either punish you or push a button)

 

[inconspikuous]

What are the frames in which one is vulnerable during neutral ledge get up?

did someone answer this? couldn't find the answer after searching the forum. i thought i remember reading somewhere that there was one frame of vulnerability on normal get up before shield, but i think that's incorrect, and i also think that the vulnerability on normal get up may scale as your damage gets higher.

 

[Shaya]

So... I used the search button and couldn't find the answer (unless my search terms sucked, if so please forgive me).

I come from a Street Fighter background, I understand frame advantage and have a basic understanding of the options my opponent has in frames. I can't seem to translate Street Fighter frame understanding to the Smash 4 frame understanding. There feels to be a lot of factors involved when attacking and defending.

In reference to frames,

How do I figure out if a move is "good" or not? (For example, In street fighter a 3 frame normal attack is usually considered good.)

How do I figure out if a move is "safe on shield" or not? ( In Street Fighter, when the opponent blocks and you attack, if you're minus frames on block, your opponent has a chance to either punish you or push a button)

Moves are very rarely safe on block in the street fighter sense. Just about everything will be -X on shield, where some of the safest moves in the game will be on average -10.
Shield dropping is 7 frames, while shield grabs are 6 frames and up. Some characters have faster out of shield options (up bs/up smashes). Perfect shielding allows you to extend to all your ground moves which then allows more reliable punishes, but even then a -10 move may not even get you a dash attack or dash grab by some of the best characters.
Shield push back exists in this game which is based on a move's strength, this is what tends to make a move safe as if shield grab won't reach, you're generally safe.

I always use "safe-ish" when describing things because in my mind nothing is really safe. Certain projectiles and certain fast fall/auto cancelled aerials probably come closer to neutral on shield or maybe even in some cases positive, but they're very very few and far between and usually have set up requirements.

A move is good because it can punish things. Most character's dash attacks (Sheik's is 5, Fox' is 5) have a fair amount of horizontal range. If you hit me with something that's -10, I'm shield dropping and you're still -3, 5 frames later and your only option to not get hit is being out of range or shield (shield being 1 frame). Dash grabs are as fast as 8 frames, similar range and are going to be beating defensive choices but if you have a fast jab (2/3 frames) you could just attack (otherwise your best option is probably to roll; which would lose to the dash attack).

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

did someone answer this? couldn't find the answer after searching the forum. i thought i remember reading somewhere that there was one frame of vulnerability on normal get up before shield, but i think that's incorrect, and i also think that the vulnerability on normal get up may scale as your damage gets higher.

I believe it is correct. For example, if any character does a normal ledge get up and holds shield, they will power shield the blast of a bomb when the bomb was actually within their character model at the exact moment when they lost invulnerability, and it only takes one frame for the bomb to detect a hurtbox before blowing up on the next frame.

 

[allshort17]

Moves are very rarely safe on block in the street fighter sense. Just about everything will be -X on shield, where some of the safest moves in the game will be on average -10.
Shield dropping is 7 frames, while shield grabs are 6 frames and up. Some characters have faster out of shield options (up bs/up smashes). Perfect shielding allows you to extend to all your ground moves which then allows more reliable punishes, but even then a -10 move may not even get you a dash attack or dash grab by some of the best characters.
Shield push back exists in this game which is based on a move's strength, this is what tends to make a move safe as if shield grab won't reach, you're generally safe.

I always use "safe-ish" when describing things because in my mind nothing is really safe. Certain projectiles and certain fast fall/auto cancelled aerials probably come closer to neutral on shield or maybe even in some cases positive, but they're very very few and far between and usually have set up requirements.

A move is good because it can punish things. Most character's dash attacks (Sheik's is 5, Fox' is 5) have a fair amount of horizontal range. If you hit me with something that's -10, I'm shield dropping and you're still -3, 5 frames later and your only option to not get hit is being out of range or shield (shield being 1 frame). Dash grabs are as fast as 8 frames, similar range and are going to be beating defensive choices but if you have a fast jab (2/3 frames) you could just attack (otherwise your best option is probably to roll; which would lose to the dash attack).

To add on, safety in this game is usually dictated by distance. Because in Smash characters have tons of aerial movement control, attacks considered unsafe on block can be safe just because there's no way to get to them. For example, a perfectly spaced retreating fair from Marth is generally safe, while an approaching one is usually unsafe. Same frame advantage, different spacing. On the ground, long pokes tend to be safe for the same reason. Things like jabs and quick tilts draw on the fact that they can quickly transition from one move to another, setting up a guessing game and psudeo-safely due to the fear of being frame trapped. It's like a blockstring in Street Fighter. Hope that helps.

 

[LightLV]

So... I used the search button and couldn't find the answer (unless my search terms sucked, if so please forgive me).

I come from a Street Fighter background, I understand frame advantage and have a basic understanding of the options my opponent has in frames. I can't seem to translate Street Fighter frame understanding to the Smash 4 frame understanding. There feels to be a lot of factors involved when attacking and defending.

In reference to frames,

How do I figure out if a move is "good" or not? (For example, In street fighter a 3 frame normal attack is usually considered good.)

How do I figure out if a move is "safe on shield" or not? ( In Street Fighter, when the opponent blocks and you attack, if you're minus frames on block, your opponent has a chance to either punish you or push a button)

Traditional understanding of frames simply is not that helpful in this game...in fact it's likely more crippling than anything because you expect certain things to happen intuitively, and they don't. Some easy rules of thumb to make it easier:


1) Unless you are playing Little Mac, there is simply no blockstun in this game. It does not matter how powerful you are, or how much startup your move had.

2) This also counts for blockpush. There is none if you aren't Little Mac.

3) If it got blocked, and you're in grab range, you are unsafe. In fact, you're probably being thrown right now.

4) Aerials too. This is why most people who use them fadeaway as they throw them out, to avoid being in punish range in case they're blocked. If you can't do this, it's just always unsafe on block.

5) Grabbing the ledge gives about 1 (maybe 2) frames of vulnerability.



The only real frame data that really matters in Smash 4 is Startup and Active. Startup to know how fast it is, Active to know if it'll catch rolls, dodges and ledge recoveries. That's about it. The main thing to worry about in smash 4 is hitbox size and range. You notice i didn't say Recovery, and that's mostly because it can be played by eye, and is only important if the attack wiffs. If it strikes then it's good, if its blocked, its unsafe.

There are a few really good moves that are safe on block, but this is only because they have long reach and low landing lag. Moves like Link's Nair, ZSS' Zair, ect. They are completely unsafe on block at close range.

 

[Z1GMA]

The best way to SDI Zss' Up+b ?
I'm doing the Japan DI-thingy, but I'm not sure it's the ultimate thing to do here.
I can only escape it around 30% of the time.

 

[Earthboundy]

I have been involved in competitive Smash for a while and DI still confuses me. Where can I find a very good explanation of DI. Maybe an ELI5 version as well
Video would be nice too.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Mods beat me to it.

Anyway...

DI is holding a direction on the analogue stick at the moment of impact to slightly alter the angle you're launched at.

Say you get BThrown by Ness near the left edge (for illustrative purposes ofc) at KO percent. If you don't DI, you're gonna get KOd. However, if you hold up while while you get thrown, instead of going at a ~40° angle, you'll be launched at something like a 45-50° angle, towards the top-left corner of the blastlines, meaning you have a better chance of surviving. DI won't work if you input the direction you want to "bend" your trajectory to once you've been launched.

SDI is inputting a direction while you're in hitlag (the frames when an attack connects during which the attacker and victim are frozen; think Falcon's Knee or a smash hit of the Ore Club) to shift slightly in that direction. SDI will only work during hitlag, and it doesn't affect your launch angle, only your position. Say you get hit by Ganondorf's DAir offstage, near-ish to the wall, but far enough so that even if you DI towards the wall you won't hit it. If you SDI towards the wall during DAir's hitlag then DI towards the wall too, you have a better chance of impacting the wall so you can walltech and survive the hit.

I'd suggest checking these threads next time rather than making a new one;

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-smash-dictionary.374538/

I hope I helped! (idk what you mean by ELI5 unfortunately)

 

[Locuan]

I have been involved in competitive Smash for a while and DI still confuses me. Where can I find a very good explanation of DI. Maybe an ELI5 version as well
Video would be nice too.

Moved your post to the Mechanics and Techniques Discussion Thread. This question has been asked in this thread previously. Whenever you have question like these please utilize this thread.

@ Indigo Jeans gave a better answer than me

@ M MrTeddyBear posted the following video by VGBootCamp regarding DI:
http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-24#post-18977051