Meatknight is not Broken! aka How to beat Sonic [WIP]

[ShadowLink84]

... grab? (ex. bite)

I have a lot of trouble approaching grab-happy ppl. Ppl always shield or spotdodge a direct ASC approach, but I suspect a grab would be pretty freaking effective, given how much Bite ruins me. Then again, I've only ever fought one grab-happy person, and he was a Wario who just bit me all freaking day. But I suspect that anyone (particularly tall opponents) could grab me out of pretty much everything.

You can't run in and shieldgrab a grab.
You can't ASC a grab.
You probably can't run past them if they grab.
Most grabs are hard for us to punish unless they're very whiffed-in-our-face. Exception: tether-grabs, quite possibly our best matchups.

If they can grab ASC, this means ASC is totally invalid as a direct approach (ie. aiming to hit them) unless they mess up their timing/spacing (which they shouldn't, since ASC's momentum isn't that controllable, if you want it to do any damage lulz), or if you're going to jump-cancel + punish their grab-attempt. But that makes ASC approaches muuuch more predictable.........

(yes, I think ASC is otherwise a good approach; sue me )

ASC as soon as you jump into the air and you'll give it a bit of a hop. This allows the ASC to continue being in the air for a longer period of time making it more difficult for the opponent to grab you. the ability to also move about as you charge an ASC will allow you to adjust the angle further.
I've used the ASC to eat shields and end up behind the opponent and avoid being grabbed.
If they spot dodge perform a Usmash or a grab or jab in place.
It doesn't hit as often as 3-4 times (when shielded) but its much less punishable and you can still jump cancel at anytime.


Edit: **** you tenki **** you.

 

[Napilopez]

Oh actually, I think it hits at least as much when shielded. That thing eats up shields like Wario eats bikes. I perform the perfect combo or something close to it on shields all the time

But yea this isn't helping against Sonic nao...

Umm

pictochat is probably Sonics worst stage, due to obstacles, high ceilings removing his vertical KOs, and its the only stage where he's seriously succeptible to spikes due to the ground killzone thing being so close to the bottom platform.

 

[ShadowLink84]

No Nap I mean that the angle from which you hit the opponent to end up behind them makes it so that you'll have less contact with the shield than what you would do at a regular angle. Not that it can't but the angle at which it comes from doesn't allow it to hit as much.

 

[Napilopez]

Oh my bad, I get you now =P

 

[MalcolmM]

all this sonic mumbo jumbo. if u wanna beat sonic camp his kill moves. that is THE way to beat the character. his kill moves are horrendously obvious and if u havent seen half of the vids of sonic winning...its because ppl try to air dodge into them. his backair has the start up time of ness's bat so if u arent getting hit with ness's bat then u shouldnt b getting hit with his bair. The F-smash has a stupidly long startup and once it connects the cooldown is also horrid. many times against metaknight i find my f-smash useless because they bait it and then grab me even if its perfectly spaced...leading to an additional 13% and me in a poor situation. and if he does hit u with one of his smash attacks....unless u r @ the edge of the stage and playing jigglypuff or G&W u shouldnt die b4 a direct hit @ 110 AT THE EDGE. from the middle of the stage u should b able to take a straight on shot at around 130 140...his kill moves suck. abuse that. i kno i sure do in sonic dittos...i live to ******** %s...because his kill moves are obvious and they suck. Sonic wins and loses his matches based off of if he can "mindgame" his opponents into his ****ty kill moves. if he can...then he wins it....if he cant they live to 200% and rack up massive damage on his 2nd stock and he starts 2 far behind to ever have a chance.

 

[JayBee]

O.M.G. Malcolm is right. My whole life is a lie!
*switches to Metaknight*

 

[Napilopez]

Malcom wins this. Don't fall into Sonic's typical Kill move mindgames and setups.

 

[Camalange]

Killing people by running behind them THEN smashing is HILARIOUS.

For some reason, when you run straight at someone, they have the tendency to put up their shield (which leaves them susceptable to a grab anyway...) BUT, if you keep going, stop short behind them, they're like "oh im safe!" *drops shield* then you Sawnik Pawnch them.

It works...it shouldn't, but it works...

 

[JayBee]

it works because no other character really does it. Sonic is the wierdest character in the history of Smash. there. i said it.

 

[Camalange]

Yeah, I guess most character who approach by RUNNING, don't really have the option of grabbing because...well...they're too slow. Whereas Sonic is just like a rock in your face.

 

[JayBee]

i dont get the analogy.

 

[Camalange]

i dont get the analogy.

...you sadden me Kojin D:

Wow, and thsi coming from Boxob? I have to respect that, and I use cause he one of the coolest characters in the game. Fun as hell to paly as. And he fit my palystyle so well. Always on the move, and in your face like a rock.

That's cause Sonic rocks.

Sonic = Rock.

In your face like a FAST moving rock.

Good times...
Now...

/offtopic

Sonic is NOT broken and CAN be defeated!

 

[JayBee]

i didn't see these quotes before. hence the low post count. i thought u knew this...

 

[Jim Morrison]

So, for B-air, there's not much to do. It has little to no landing lag, it's super disjointed. So, best option is to shield/shieldgrab in the air?

 

[Tenki]

No, you can grab its landing. Happens to me all the time lol.

Just because landing lag is minor doesn't make it unpunishable. Sonic mains of all people should know that :3

 

[MalcolmM]

the best option is to hit him before the stupid move ever comes out. its not instant...i learned that after playing against snakeee's zss....his character has an INSTANT bair...i was twisting my leg around for a good second b4 he realized and would jus bair me b4 mine came out. the move is whack. and its not super disjointed...those are just sonic rumors we have created. it may have a smaaallll disjoint but ddd can grab sonics foot...he cant grab marths sword. clearly one of those things is and isnt disjointed. if u haaaaaaaave to let him do the backair for reasons i cant imagine then just shield and punish. a "perfectly spaced" bair isnt free from punishment from any1 in the higher tiers.

 

[Jim Morrison]

It depends from where you are standing/who you are. If I hit a Bowser with the tip of B-air and he shields it, he's not gonna grab a landing Sonic. He ran away long by then. Bowser has little grab range and poor speed on the ground. Grabbing doesn't apply to all characters. It applies to the fast characters and the characters with large grab range.

 

[MalcolmM]

so then bowser is an exception....of wait...bowser can up-b out of shield? looks like hes not an exception after all.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Looks like I got MalcolmM pwned. TENKI ADD IT TO THE THREAD.

 

[Chis]

Don't forget to add the Sonic doesn't have much priority to his attacks to attacking his smashes with jabs and NOT shielding them is a good idea. Also Sonic have problems approaching projectiles :o

 

[infomon]

I agree with Malcolm about Bair.... to deal with its slow startup lag, I've learned to start the Bair early, and usually above the opponent.... so by the time I'm anywhere near the enemy (if they come in, or if I'm approaching/punishing), the hitbox is out, defensively. Bair gets so ruined by shields you really have to watch out, I always try to punish chars with IASA frames, like Lucario's Fsmash, and it just doesn't work lol.

 

[Chis]

Also put that Sonic is not very good a punishing, so throwing out laggy moves is OK.

 

[infomon]

Chis: wait, what?
I'd agreed with your previous statements, but....

 

[Jim Morrison]

Lol, Chis does not approve of this thread.

 

[Camalange]

I couldn't tell if Chis's first post on this page was a joke or not, but now I'm positive, lol.

How about the fact that no character should try to beat out Sonic's Uair with a Dair? It seriously won't work. Seriously. It won't. Stop trying.

 

[infomon]

Isn't that true of most Uairs, though? like ICs, ...... ok, maybe not most other chars...... hmm ok nvm

 

[Camalange]

Exactly infzy, exactly. lol

Just sayin', if people are still convinced Sonic has absolutley no disjoints, they'll be ****'D if they play a Sonic who knows how to space Uair.

 

[Xiahou Dun]

Sonic is the wierdest character in the history of Smash. there. i said it.

Doesn't make it true thogh does it?

 

[Shugo-Chan]

How can people think MK should'nt be banned? He has no flaws.. Lets be like japan and ban MK AND Snake :3.

 

[Chis]

Sonic has committed approaches, if you hear a spinning sound DON'T shield. They're just fainting, even when they're in the air. Also if you see Sonic dashing towards you, throw jabs at him.

 

[Napilopez]

Because I'm awesome and I don't lose to MKs ^_^. =P

He has his flaws and is more than beatable. Its just tough for most of the cast.

But this is not the place, we're discussing Sonic's weaknesses

Bair is very disjointed I'm quite sure. I have beaten D3s grab with it. The difference between Marths disjoints and Sonics is all about the path of the hitboxes vs hurtboxes. Marth's fair for example travels from above marths head to like below his legs, it follows that arching path, and maintains its disjoint throughout the duration of the move. Sonic's bair isn't as good because it only has its maximum disjoint for a very small amount of time. The hitbox juts out from Sonic's body, then immediately retracts back in, so the large disjoint is only when Sonic's foot is fully extended. People also tend to forget/not notice that the hitbox extends a bit past his foot, like Uair, so they aren't hitting with it at its safest range.

But yes, I agree with everything else you said Malcom. The move is slow and it does project itself, the best way to punish it is to hit Sonic out of it before the move goes out. Its eats shield grabs especially if the the Sonic is approaching with it. Be wary of Bair landing to immediate fsmash/ftilt.

And yea infzy, most Uairs can't beat Lucario or Links Dair Cam is right, people should stop trying to beat out Sonic's Uair if he is good at spacing them. Lucario's dair is probably the hardest to space against though.

 

[Kinzer]

Napi, if you get comfortable with Pichochat, it isn't even that bad of a stage for Sonic. Believe me, I won a set against a MK at my tourney because he CPed Picto on me.

Japes is Sonic's worst stage by far, but any smart Sonic would ban that @#$% if they could.

 

[Chis]

Er,

Sonic has reduced options after the spring. DI, Aerials, that's it.

imidoingitrite?

 

[Napilopez]

Why Japes? I find a bunch of neato ASC tricksies, and some cool juggling stuff their. Side KO's with Bthrows and whatnot are nice too.

...

Do we Sonic mains every agree on anything matchup or stage wise? -_-



EDIT: Lol Chis, yes . Don't forget Sonic can footstool you if your hanging on the ledge attempting to gimp, so try to refresh your invincy frames if you can.

 

[Kinzer]

Try fighting a good Peach/DK/ on Japes and you'll see my point.

I hate Japes so much...

 

[Chis]

Try fighting a good Peach/DK/ on Japes and you'll see my point.

I hate Japes so much...

I fought Rick on Jungle Japes.

I got killed by a croc

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

I fought Rick on Jungle Japes.

I got killed by a croc

HUP CHAAAAA!!!

I've actually killed a few Sonic's vertically when they've tried to Spring --> Uair me...Peach's Dair sends them so high it actually kills xD

Also, punishing Sonic's who use Spring ---> Dair with a grab/other stuff is incredibly satisfying

 

[infomon]

It was just last Friday at smashfest when I found out (was told >.>) you can up-B out of water.
This makes Japes much more tolerable for Sonic, since our up-B is so good.

You still have flying-leftwards momentum though, so it's tricky to get used to.

I still think it's a bad Sonic stage. If the opponent knows how to DI, Bthrow won't kill off the sides until absurdly high percent iirc. Our Uair juggling entirely loses its ability to kill, we don't have ground to move around in, we don't have (m)any good GTFO moves for the small platforms, and many other characters benefit more from the weird Japes stuff than Sonic does (ex. Bowser's up-B to travel below the platforms, and his down-B edgecancels reeeally nice+easy).

 

[Tenki]

It was just last Friday at smashfest when I found out (was told >.>) you can up-B out of water.
This makes Japes much more tolerable for Sonic, since our up-B is so good.

You still have flying-leftwards momentum though, so it's tricky to get used to.

I still think it's a bad Sonic stage. If the opponent knows how to DI, Bthrow won't kill off the sides until absurdly high percent iirc. Our Uair juggling entirely loses its ability to kill, we don't have ground to move around in, we don't have (m)any good GTFO moves for the small platforms, and many other characters benefit more from the weird Japes stuff than Sonic does (ex. Bowser's up-B to travel below the platforms, and his down-B edgecancels reeeally nice+easy).

[1] Up-B at any time, or like, tapjump up-B?

[2] You guys actually kill with U-airs ...?

o_O;

edit:

Oh yeah, I just remembered something about countering Sonic's U-air.

>:3

 

[Camalange]

Oh yeah, I just remembered something about countering Sonic's U-air.

>:3

THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE.

Don't make me cry.