Meatknight is not Broken! aka How to beat Sonic [WIP]

[Tenki]

As I recall, Puffy, MK can't do ****.

His tech is slow, so he only gets a one frame advantage over Sonic, so his dsmash can be powershielded.

Usmash is very punishable. Why people suggest using is against multijump characters (like Jiggz) with the ability to space aerials is beyond me.

I didn't test MK's F-tilt, but even his D-tilt when buffered gets powershielded. I think F-tilt might be faster. You'd have to go into training mode and test it yourself.

I think they use U-smash as a 'lol you tried to aerial' or a 'lol you missed an aerial' punisher attack. But otherwise, you're completely right.

Though I'm not sure whether U-smash should be listed as more of a commonly beginner/mid/advanced Sonic usage/tactic, since I am sort of trying to have a certain order here.

 

[MalcolmM]

I use upsmash as a "hahaha this move goes through everything for some ******** reason and im gonna challenge w/e u r doing with it" move....on occasion.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Usmash is one of those moves that you only use in certain match-ups.

Like, using it against floaties with high range on aerials like Jigglypuff is silly, because she's just going to weave out as it starts up, and Pound you through it.

Match-ups this moves are good against are those with bad aerial acceleration, or just bad jumps in general, obviously as these some of them lack the ability to weave aerials. People like Luigi are pretty helpless to this, considering his low range/low air speed, he can't really GTFO in time. Spaced well, this is even good against Metaknight, thanks to his very short, low acceleration hops. He can knock you out of it pretty easily if spaced wrongly with his crazy disjoints, but that goes without saying.

The move usage isn't so much player skill dependant, as match-up dependant. I know lots of average Sonic's use Hyphen Smash sparingly as an approach, which works okayish.

 

[Boxob.]

she's just going to weave out as it starts up, and Pound you

Oh baby.

Usmash is good, though.

 

[Napilopez]

I <3 this thread.

Hyphen smash or Dacus is awesome at the ver beginning of a match, as Espy once suggested.

I shall contribute.

I'm not too sure about the grab gimp things. Uair beats out that grab thing(I played atomsk yesterday, and even with D3s grab range he didn't seem to be able to grab gimp me when I uaired) so I think it would be best to not go for that if the Sonic knows how to space Uairs. If the Sonic doesn't use it though, then go for it.

Dtilt:
Too many people just stand there unawear this move can string and I think even lock many characters. Stop just standing there and use your quickest aerials. Im not sure if DIing away is the best thing, because sonic might be able to run and grab, but use a quick aerial anyways and try some DI.

Dtilt, is also easy to shieldgrab, as it pushes Sonic forward.

Any ideas on how to deal with springbombing gimp? If you notice sonic is trying to go directly above you, he will likely try to spring gimp you. Try to space and DI so that the spring can actually help your recovery.

Be wary of of shied cancels from ASC. Best option may be to grab, especially if your character has a good grab range like marth or D3. Because you can grab the actual roll when the Aerial Spin Charge Lands anyways, and you can grab them when they shield cancel, so time your grabs.

The best option against Dair is always almost always a grab. Good Sonics will usually autocancel the move so that they are shielding upon landing, expecting an attack. Against a well timed grab, there is very little a sonic can do.

Etc etc. Will add more later

 

[Zylar]

This seems very helpful. (I've been following the tier 2.0 drama.)
I lost (got boku-rolled if anyone here knows what that means.) to a sonic recently.
Well, I lose to a lot of people just because I'm new to competative smash.
But still with sonic I know next to nothing much like many people.
At least now I know somewhat how to deal with my problems with sonic.

 

[GodotAA]

i had to learn alot of this stuff the hard way and i still get owned by malcolm ><

 

[MalcolmM]

i had to learn alot of this stuff the hard way and i still get owned by malcolm ><

oooooooooooh snap! its white chocolate aka joedot aka faaayg...why are u wandering the lovely sonic boards?

 

[aeghrur]

I'm very confused on this...
On one side, it's a HUGE risk that, most likely, will not pay off.
On the other hand, this can boost our metagame even further and we can prove Sonic deserves a higher spot in the tierlist. =/

 

[BlueTerrorist]

This seems very helpful. (I've been following the tier 2.0 drama.)
I lost (got boku-rolled if anyone here knows what that means.) to a sonic recently.
Well, I lose to a lot of people just because I'm new to competative smash.
But still with sonic I know next to nothing much like many people.
At least now I know somewhat how to deal with my problems with sonic.

I know what that is lol. Too bad it doesn't work on me .

Wanna kill Sonic with little fuss, camp the corners or the stage (As in stand near the ledge). This will limit his options and make him a bit more predictable (and you won't have to worry about him going behind you and run circles around you), works better with people with projectiles.

 

[Zylar]

I know what that is lol. Too bad it doesn't work on me .

Wanna kill Sonic with little fuss, camp the corners or the stage (As in stand near the ledge). This will limit his options and make him a bit more predictable (and you won't have to worry about him going behind you and run circles around you), works better with people with projectiles.

Lol, yeah.

Thanks that actually makes LOADS of sense. Funny thing though, the sonic I played was doing the same thing to me. (Not that I'm able run circles around sonic.)

 

[Kinzer]

Aeg, this is more like a test to see where we are. If we truly are as good as we think we are, we will be able to overcome thes counters to Sonic and find counters to these counters. It is up to you to make this have a good outcome.

 

[Tenki]

I'm very confused on this...
On one side, it's a HUGE risk that, most likely, will not pay off.
On the other hand, this can boost our metagame even further and we can prove Sonic deserves a higher spot in the tierlist. =/

Well, like I mentioned before, this stuff DOES happen.

I've seen and/or performed these in matches I've played. The main thing is that I see them sprawled out. One person might be the guy who counters spindash combos out of shield, while the other person might be the one going for the grabs.

But since none of them have the same experiences against Sonic, they don't see the weaknesses overall.

It's not like any of this stuff is new, except for the D-throw issue, kind of. I mean really, do you still fight people who don't make attempts to punish spring>D-air?

 

[JayBee]

I use upsmash as a "hahaha this move goes through everything for some ******** reason and im gonna challenge w/e u r doing with it" move....on occasion.

lol exactly. randomly doing it seems to have a "win" effect.
watch this vid between me and a DK and the stuff i ran through with the Up-Smash. I even ***** a kirby Drill kick with it for no reason. i don't time it good enough to use invincibility frames from it.

Malcolm, if I get to go to Phily tourney, you and me need to MM Sonics. its for research, i swear..
oh, and you need to come to VA for tourneys too...


lol but yah, Tenki just doomed us all...

 

[GodotAA]

oooooooooooh snap! its white chocolate aka joedot aka faaayg...why are u wandering the lovely sonic boards?

you know ive always wanted to main sonic. in my eyes hes top tier.

 

[Tenki]

lol but yah, Tenki just doomed us all...

What, you want to bank on your opponents not knowing how to play against your character to win?



No whining about tier placements from you, mister.

 

[aeghrur]

Well, like I mentioned before, this stuff DOES happen.

I've seen and/or performed these in matches I've played. The main thing is that I see them sprawled out. One person might be the guy who counters spindash combos out of shield, while the other person might be the one going for the grabs.

But since none of them have the same experiences against Sonic, they don't see the weaknesses overall.

It's not like any of this stuff is new, except for the D-throw issue, kind of. I mean really, do you still fight people who don't make attempts to punish spring>D-air?

This... does nothing to show me that your risk isn't as big as I think it is.
What you just said is that this thread was so other people will see our mistakes/weaknesses and punish us for it, so we must find ways to minimize those weaknesses. The thing is though... this still doesn't make our risk side any smaller.
I mean, right now, I'm thinking if our metagame doesn't evolve beyond a certain point, this WILL backfire, and HARD. It's very likely to do so too...

 

[JayBee]

What, you want to bank on your opponents not knowing how to play against your character to win?



No whining about tier placements from you, mister.

wut? i whined? um...


Why yes sir, yes i do thank you very much! besides I coach my opponents and people I train with all the time and its just now starting to click with some of them. you are not needed to accelerate the process. lol.

This is Reverse Steak, and you know it, "mister."

 

[Tenki]

This... does nothing to show me that your risk isn't as big as I think it is.
What you just said is that this thread was so other people will see our mistakes/weaknesses and punish us for it, so we must find ways to minimize those weaknesses. The thing is though... this still doesn't make our risk side any smaller.
I mean, right now, I'm thinking if our metagame doesn't evolve beyond a certain point, this WILL backfire, and HARD. It's very likely to do so too...

Read the thread.

So far it's all simple stuff. Anyone who's in "OMG I'M FIGHTING METAKNIGHT!" caffeine-reflex mode ("I'm getting hit? AHH SDI! SDI!"; "HE HIT MY SHIELD! RELEASE AND PUNISH NOW!") would be able to pull this stuff off. Maybe except for the D-throw thing, because that'd need a bit of creativity/matchup knowledge to find out on their own.

The U-air out of shield to punish Sonic if he (hint hint) hastily does aerials after SDR into a shield? I got that move from ShadoFiend, who got it from playing Ally in wifi matches. Ally doesn't even main Sonic (though, arguably, his brother does play Sonic a bit), but I'm sure alot of you Sonic mains wouldn't have thought that U-air OoS would have even been possible to punish Sonic in the first place.

If any of you people think you're gonna go to a tournament worth of SBR/SWF's notice and you think you're gonna get a free ride and valiantly win Sonic respect from the community, you're not gonna win it when [esteemed player who you sent to second place] goes about johning "I didn't know the Sonic matchup", because that's all you'll ever hear from the community- "[player] said he didn't know the Sonic matchup, so [Sonic main] just got a lucky win lol". On the other side of things, you'd best expect this stuff from higher level players.

wut? i whined? um...


Why yes sir, yes i do thank you very much! besides I coach my opponents all the time and its just now starting to click with some of them. you are not needed to accelerate the process. lol.

This is Reverse Steak, and you know it, "mister."

that wasn't a good wine pun :[

I'm not really sure of your history of reactions about tier placements, but I mentioned earlier that if (indirect) you're against people learning the Sonic matchup, there should be no reason for you to complain about Sonic's tier placement, because for all you know, the only thing holding it up could be matchup inexperience. And that's no good.

<3

 

[JayBee]

of course. i agree. the higher level player do this too. that's why its a john when they say stuff like that. its not like im having an easier time against your (insert high tier character here) just because you don't have an exact idea of what you need to do.

Hey, tenki, don't think im bombing u for this thread, its a nice idea, i was actually telling my rivals about this thread as I "fun mocked" you... lol one thought "omg the boards finally lost it." he was reassured, i swear...

And i didn't make any wine puns...

EDIT:
to be honest i was a bit distraught about the new tier list for about two seconds, then i got over it. then this thread popped up, i was like, "tenki's at it again wit the knowledge for the sawniks." i read it and was like, "lol wut the bloody hell?" and decided to bother u a bit.

 

[MalcolmM]

jaybee ill play u in philly. kid will b there as well it seems....so u can do tons of research. and joedot better read up on all this stuff....even those he does it all already and it doesnt make any bit of difference. who doesnt punish spindashes? i do it in every ditto i play...and bum killed me @ 130 with a dk up air cause i got too impatient and get trying to spindash into up air and never mix it up.

 

[JayBee]

apparently, a lot of people dont punish the spinz, they'd rather spotdodge first, until they get comfortable with the speed. thats when they get brave.

anyone up for wifi?

 

[infomon]

anyone up for wifi?

yes! let's do this!

 

[JayBee]

okay. see you online then. get my freind code. can u record?

 

[infomon]

done. I'm hosting. I'm recording, not by choice, it's mandatory lol

Edit: are you online? I don't see you......

 

[JayBee]

u see me now? lol my computer is upstairs and the wii is in the basement. and im too slow.

 

[Tenki]

oye oye, wifi thread for this stuff.

>:[

 

[JayBee]

i'm sorry...

 

[ROOOOY!]

So I already covered upsmash.

Dsmash won't be punished often because it's not often used.

So yeah, dsmash sends sonic one way, then straight across to the other side, then straight back to the original side. After that, the hitbox disappears so essentially as you're travelling back to the centre of the rolling area from the side you first went, you're very vulnerable. This end roll has no hitbox but is just animation which can be attacked. Depends if any characters are close enough to punish that I guess. Unless you're in a Sonic ditto, I doubt it lol.

 

[infomon]

But anyone can punish the hitbox with their aerials, and MK's sword cuts right through it as well. So Dsmash isn't safe at all. It's great for punishing landing-lag, though; if you know they don't have time to throw out an aerial.

 

[Tenki]

If you shield D-smash, release immediately, you can punish Sonic with almost anything lol.

It's weird cause it's his lowest-lag smash, yet has one of, if not, the longest commitment time of his smashes.

 

[JayBee]

D smash is mostly used to punish. even if you save it as a finisher. ask infzy... mwahahahaha
but using it stand alone will most likely get you grabbed.

 

[Napilopez]

just to back Tenki up with this, I think its a really smart choice. Like he said, some people DO know this, but most don't. You're gonna be pwned when you face someone who does. And if they do, just find new ways around it. But its better than having that argument that people don't know the matchup. None of this sounds gamebreaking anyways.

 

[Tenki]

It is a pretty nice punisher move since it's faster than F-smash, and has similar knockback, too- its range is just a little under F-smash. I ought to punish with it more often, but charging F-smash and lolling at people spotdodging is too tempting to pull, even when it doesn't work -_-

just to back Tenki up with this, I think its a really smart choice. Like he said, some people DO know this, but most don't. You're gonna be pwned when you face someone who does. And if they do, just find new ways around it. But its better than having that argument that people don't know the matchup. None of this sounds gamebreaking anyways.

Of course it's not gamebreaking.
It kind of makes me wonder about the Sonic mains who were treating it like it was going to be gamebreaking.

Though, I didn't tell people how to **** ASC and dash yet.


just kidding. I don't have that kind of info, and they're too... not rapable.

...or am I kidding?

 

[TwinkleToes]

Random side note on the thread title:
"Meatknight" sounds like the name of a pornstar. You may want to revise this "pun."

 

[Chis]

Random side note on the thread title:
"Meatknight" sounds like the name of a pornstar. You may want to revise this "pun."

lol this

On topic: Nothing to add

 

[Napilopez]

No way, Meatknight and Snack for food tiers.

 

[infomon]

Though, I didn't tell people how to **** ASC and dash yet.


just kidding. I don't have that kind of info, and they're too... not rapable.

...or am I kidding?

... grab? (ex. bite)

I have a lot of trouble approaching grab-happy ppl. Ppl always shield or spotdodge a direct ASC approach, but I suspect a grab would be pretty freaking effective, given how much Bite ruins me. Then again, I've only ever fought one grab-happy person, and he was a Wario who just bit me all freaking day. But I suspect that anyone (particularly tall opponents) could grab me out of pretty much everything.

You can't run in and shieldgrab a grab.
You can't ASC a grab.
You probably can't run past them if they grab.
Most grabs are hard for us to punish unless they're very whiffed-in-our-face. Exception: tether-grabs, quite possibly our best matchups.

If they can grab ASC, this means ASC is totally invalid as a direct approach (ie. aiming to hit them) unless they mess up their timing/spacing (which they shouldn't, since ASC's momentum isn't that controllable, if you want it to do any damage lulz), or if you're going to jump-cancel + punish their grab-attempt. But that makes ASC approaches muuuch more predictable.........

(yes, I think ASC is otherwise a good approach; sue me )

 

[Napilopez]

Ehh I dunno, jump cancelling can lead to alot of things:

spring/airdodge/homing/any aerial/landing.

About controlling momentum you can pull back ASC into SDR to punish a grab =P

But yea, grab is generally ur best option. if the Sonic is approaches directly =P

 

[Tenki]

but you can go for the 'aim the ASC in case they roll back' approach, where you end up skimming the top of their shield.

you'd be susceptible to people who have up-B OoS though.

Random side note on the thread title:
"Meatknight" sounds like the name of a pornstar. You may want to revise this "pun."

LOL awesome. All the more reason to keep it.

though, 'meatknight' doesn't sound like a very feminine name.
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