Okay, R@ven really do you think that the Best DK in the Nation doesn't know match-ups. Hold on DK boards don't go ape **** on me. I'm trying to tell this guy he doesn't know a good match-up DK vs pit like I do, I usually reserve my judgement on matches I don't know. Pit is not one of them, it's a 6:4 because Pit can kill Dk at about 120 with bad DI with good DI Dk can live up to a fresh bair till 140-150% Pit on the other hand on a normal sized stage cannot live past a hundred with a fresh dsmash from DK. Now that's just showing you that the life ration gives DK an extra stock if you will. Since DK builds damage quick and kills better. The mirror gimps are seriously the way I told you. Sure if a Dk does his up b from way off stage then yes Dk will die. But if you wait to get close to the stage up b you can change momentum of your up b when caped or shielded Trust me I tested this very much because I had so much pit practice. I had to, I mean no offense it just makes me angry when people begin to speak of match-ups like they know and understand top level match-ups not against your friends or buddies. But against good accomplished players.
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Matchup Thread: WHAT TIME IS IT?
- Thread starter itsthebigfoot
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I dont take offense nor do I mean to intend to cause any. All im saying is that some of what you said was wrong. Also I'm under the assumption that Bum was generally considered the best DK in the nation and regardless as to if you are / were or weren't that doesnt mean your opinion is absolute and that it can't possibly be wrong.
From the way you initially replied you made it seem like if Mirror Shielding DK's recovery from wherever he is recovering will still allow him to return to the stage. Im aware of the minute details such as how far DK has to be recovering from or where Pit even has to be to pull off a successful gimp with the shield vs DK's recovery. Dk doesnt have to be recovering from some tremendously far distance to do it. If DK is close enough to the stage to avoid being gimped by the shield in the first place there would be no sense in even thinking about trying it as it would he would probably be extremely close to the ledge.
As for the differences in damage you have to realise that even though DK does kill faster. Pit has no trouble racking up that kind of damage on DK. The percentages you listed are kinda arbitrary. The only way DK is surviving a fresh Bair is if he is on one side of the stage and flying to the opposite side. There is also the issue of if Pit gets DK far enough off stage that he can really harrass his recovery simply by shooting arrows. You compare Pits camping ability to Falco's and Wolfs. In a sense Pit doesn't camp as well on stage as Falco, he does way better than Wolf though. It's offstage where the ability to control his projectile becomes more of an issue for DK in comparison.
Also, It doesn't take a genius to figure out matchups at a top level as long as a player can take the time to sit down and analyze them. I also do play with top players of my region, I'm not simply talking about the kid next door who plays FFAs on Hyrule. You shouldnt assume that a person may not know a matchup simply because you haven't heard of them.
Okay I'm sorry if I assumed that you haven't played a top DK that we know to have a good record of skill in his past. And I'm not saying you don't have experience at all, what I'm saying is do you have any top Level DK experience? If not then you can't even grasp the difference in analyzing and playing a player. I speak of person to person, player to player, character to character top level play. I have much of this experience.'
And please do forgive me if you do have extensive amounts of experience against good DK's, Or even if you have played really good DK's a few times to give you this bit of incite. But unless you give me a name or some sort of answer to how that goes then how can I accurately take your position and argument into the way I'm figuring the match-up.
And lets also for another fact take into account pits Shield though it does reflect donkey kongs up b he can only reflect it when it's attacking. Now if he tries to do this at the end of the up b it won't move Dk enough to kill him. If he does it far off stage A DK can emediately change the direction which he's tilting the directional stick and start to move the other way even if still in an up b in one direction. I've tested this many times, the only succesful way to edgehog is if you get a mirror shield and a DK decides to go for the ledge and you edge hog him. Other than that you should not get Dk mirror shielded more than one per match. And sure the small ammount of damage pit racks up off stage is really minor compared to how much he's supposed to hit DK. And DK can momentum break with up b, if a Dk up b's instead of up airs he will live much longer than you give him credit for.
But that is just one aspect on which we dis-agree but I won't stop there and I will say I have played Sagemoon, Nezumi, Peachyanne, Mold, *insert Nor-cal pits name here*. And I've not said it was a steamroll but it's not even in any way. The effective attacks that DK has makes it so hard for pit to live too long, please just tell me who you play so I can speak to him about his experience and see if it gives me some incite into your way of viewing the matchup. Otherwise how can I change my vast knowledge and understanding of the match-up without having a Dk's view that you play like you do to make you believe it's in pits favor.
And as for Bum I hear he's good, we haven't been to the same tournament to see who places better but I'm sure I've proven myself all around the west coast up down and around to say I'm the best West Coast. And since neither I nor him have won a major yet it's hard to say who's the best, I just think I travel out of my state and town for my tournaments. And I hear he doesn't and goes only to his tournaments and some out of town, but stays mostly around his home.
And please do forgive me if you do have extensive amounts of experience against good DK's, Or even if you have played really good DK's a few times to give you this bit of incite. But unless you give me a name or some sort of answer to how that goes then how can I accurately take your position and argument into the way I'm figuring the match-up.
And lets also for another fact take into account pits Shield though it does reflect donkey kongs up b he can only reflect it when it's attacking. Now if he tries to do this at the end of the up b it won't move Dk enough to kill him. If he does it far off stage A DK can emediately change the direction which he's tilting the directional stick and start to move the other way even if still in an up b in one direction. I've tested this many times, the only succesful way to edgehog is if you get a mirror shield and a DK decides to go for the ledge and you edge hog him. Other than that you should not get Dk mirror shielded more than one per match. And sure the small ammount of damage pit racks up off stage is really minor compared to how much he's supposed to hit DK. And DK can momentum break with up b, if a Dk up b's instead of up airs he will live much longer than you give him credit for.
But that is just one aspect on which we dis-agree but I won't stop there and I will say I have played Sagemoon, Nezumi, Peachyanne, Mold, *insert Nor-cal pits name here*. And I've not said it was a steamroll but it's not even in any way. The effective attacks that DK has makes it so hard for pit to live too long, please just tell me who you play so I can speak to him about his experience and see if it gives me some incite into your way of viewing the matchup. Otherwise how can I change my vast knowledge and understanding of the match-up without having a Dk's view that you play like you do to make you believe it's in pits favor.
And as for Bum I hear he's good, we haven't been to the same tournament to see who places better but I'm sure I've proven myself all around the west coast up down and around to say I'm the best West Coast. And since neither I nor him have won a major yet it's hard to say who's the best, I just think I travel out of my state and town for my tournaments. And I hear he doesn't and goes only to his tournaments and some out of town, but stays mostly around his home.
crifer
Smash Lord
we had a character board war, watch the vids on youtube^^
DK boards won clearly...
DK boards won clearly...
Luigi player
Smash Master
Against Fox you have to be very cautios and never let him hit you with dair (and SDI it if he does). Some things don't work good against Fox like grounded upB (Fox can just roll away and you can't catch up), so you can't really use it as a damage builder.
Spaced bair spamming is also, like always, very good...
crifers Fox 2 stocked my DK. It was very strange. On some stages he was very good, but on some stages I had the advantage. On BF I ***** him. So I guess this matchup is really stage dependent...
Spaced bair spamming is also, like always, very good...
crifers Fox 2 stocked my DK. It was very strange. On some stages he was very good, but on some stages I had the advantage. On BF I ***** him. So I guess this matchup is really stage dependent...
crifer
Smash Lord
yeah, that was a good match of my Fox^^
The thing against Fox is that you can´t play defensive bc he will damage your sheild,
and that the worst case scenario, bc Fox can rack up damage with dair and fair strings insane fast....
so never let your sheild become small...
I searched for openings with shine stalling, that worked ,
if someone predict that if you are running you will use grounded upB, he can space himself so that he can punishes you for that...
As DK I would go for bair approach, sometimes downB or ftilt...
Also if you see Fox running to you (what he does not have to do, bc of laers)
expect a aerial or a grab,
so the best way to counter this is bairs, sh in the high of his aerial, it will beat anything...
lately I find myself using way more bair combined with sh, fh and dj, more as a spacing move and defense, Its almost unpunishable, upB is punishable...
try to edgeguard Fox with some fairs, dairs and bairs maybe upBs....
Fox is vunerable when he recovers....
The thing against Fox is that you can´t play defensive bc he will damage your sheild,
and that the worst case scenario, bc Fox can rack up damage with dair and fair strings insane fast....
so never let your sheild become small...
I searched for openings with shine stalling, that worked ,
if someone predict that if you are running you will use grounded upB, he can space himself so that he can punishes you for that...
As DK I would go for bair approach, sometimes downB or ftilt...
Also if you see Fox running to you (what he does not have to do, bc of laers)
expect a aerial or a grab,
so the best way to counter this is bairs, sh in the high of his aerial, it will beat anything...
lately I find myself using way more bair combined with sh, fh and dj, more as a spacing move and defense, Its almost unpunishable, upB is punishable...
try to edgeguard Fox with some fairs, dairs and bairs maybe upBs....
Fox is vunerable when he recovers....
_clinton
Smash Master
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2006
- Messages
- 3,189
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=229697
Please chat in this thread about how Ness could overcome some of your characters traits...thank you
Please chat in this thread about how Ness could overcome some of your characters traits...thank you
Darknid
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2008
- Messages
- 449
Pit's A moves generally suck. His kill moves suck, his aerials suck, his up B sucks, his side B sucks, everything he has except a few moves really suck. He's got bad range, slow startup speed on most attacks and doesn't rack up damage very well. Just bair him and space F tilts and D tilts, your only problem is arrows. I've also never played a Pit that I could call skilled, but maybe that's just the character.
ook
Smash Lord
Obviously
if you think all his moves suck (especially aerials) and can't rack up damage well....
Pit racks up teh damage
but... are we ever gonna talk about a new character
Rickerdy-doo-da-day
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2008
- Messages
- 4,861
- NNID
- RicardoAvocado
I was pretty shocked when I saw you guys only had 1 sticky xD Ehem anyway, the Peach Boards are rediscussing the DK match up. Here's the link
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=234086
Sensible and civil contributions would be appreciated. Thanks in advance
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=234086
Sensible and civil contributions would be appreciated. Thanks in advance
crifer
Smash Lord
weird.
I approach against zamus, with fh, and dj bairs,
I think that zss can´t do anything against it,
because she has no defense for that angle....
But idk, maybe it´s because I played zss until now only online...
I approach against zamus, with fh, and dj bairs,
I think that zss can´t do anything against it,
because she has no defense for that angle....
But idk, maybe it´s because I played zss until now only online...
daisho
Smash Lord
I was reviewing the Ike matchup and nowhere did anyone mention that off stage cargo d toss just kills Ike, nothing he can do about it really. I think its more like 65-35... either way not important.
Rob matchup... I got ***** playing a rob. He outprioritized everything I had and was just outright faster. Then on the ground he dodged alot, I should have Down or up bd, but wtvr. Can someone give me some pointers?
Rob matchup... I got ***** playing a rob. He outprioritized everything I had and was just outright faster. Then on the ground he dodged alot, I should have Down or up bd, but wtvr. Can someone give me some pointers?
Darknid
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2008
- Messages
- 449
Ike is a complete beast onstage though, with his jabs and spacing moves I say it evens out.
Also, ROB..You can down B but if you don't hit him, he will laser you before you can get out of it. Up B ***** as usual, if he spot dodges he'll eat a lot of damage. Basically, you want to get him in the air. down B and utilt can do this pretty well. Once he's in the air, attack from below with uair or bair, that's his weakspot.
Oh, and if he, for some reason, approaches you from the air you can shieldgrab everything he does. You can also shieldgrab all of his options when he returns from a ledge.
You want to hit him before he does what he wants. Space F tilts and bairs and he can't do much.
Oh and grab his top and glide toss that ****.
Also, ROB..You can down B but if you don't hit him, he will laser you before you can get out of it. Up B ***** as usual, if he spot dodges he'll eat a lot of damage. Basically, you want to get him in the air. down B and utilt can do this pretty well. Once he's in the air, attack from below with uair or bair, that's his weakspot.
Oh, and if he, for some reason, approaches you from the air you can shieldgrab everything he does. You can also shieldgrab all of his options when he returns from a ledge.
You want to hit him before he does what he wants. Space F tilts and bairs and he can't do much.
Oh and grab his top and glide toss that ****.
daisho
Smash Lord
His airials have great priority. He can FF a fair if you approach from below. I mostly had trouble returning... not that he gimped me, but i usually ate a fair or two before i got back.
And i never figured out how to glide toss... i know its something to do with rolling while holding an item and i know what it does... i even know follow ups, just don't know how to do it.
And i never figured out how to glide toss... i know its something to do with rolling while holding an item and i know what it does... i even know follow ups, just don't know how to do it.
itsthebigfoot
Smash Lord
I'll update the OP once we figure out what character we're talking about
crifer
Smash Lord
roll and press the cstick in the direction you want to glide toss
Gea
Smash Master
I thought DK's glide toss was *** because while the distance was good, doesn't he have one of, if not the longest throwing animations in the game?
daisho
Smash Lord
correction: its an amazing slide, but a horrible throw
t3h n00b
Smash Ace
Would you guys mind posting about the Falcon/DK matchup in the Falcon boards' matchup thread?
stealth3654
Smash Lord
Hello.
The Sheik boards are currently discussing the Donkey Kong match-up here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=226389&page=17. Any input you might have would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.
The Sheik boards are currently discussing the Donkey Kong match-up here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=226389&page=17. Any input you might have would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
.
Count
Smash Champion
Towards the beginning of brawl I considered DK to be even or a slight advantage over diddy. I now consider this matchup in diddy kongs favor. I have played the two best DKs in the MW-ook and ripple. Both are better players than me yet I came one hit away from beating ook and I beat ripple in a money match. It should be probably be updated to 6:4 diddy or even 65:35, I think you guys would agree. I can elaborate more if necessary I doubt you guys care, just thought I would bring attention to the point.
tl;dr diddy has the advantage over DK
tl;dr diddy has the advantage over DK
Luigi player
Smash Master
I think it's 60:40 or 55:45 for Diddy... I actually had trouble against a DK yesterday, although if I use DK against Diddys I mostly win, but it's a bit difficult, even if they suck.
crifer
Smash Lord
the DK was me??
yeah it´s diddys favor...
there is no real answer against nana spam, except maybe downB what can be trick through simple sh throwing the nanas....
Luigi player
Smash Master
It was Gsnek
crifer
Smash Lord
Luigi player
Smash Master
Learn catching the Bananas better. ^^
crifer
Smash Lord
play me tomorrow and spam like there is no tomorrow,
i really lack diddy matchup experience.
how about 17.45 tomorrow?
I don't think the diddy matchup is that bad. I just think diddy is the hardest character to play against if you aren't really familiar with the matchup. He has to get you to ridiculous %'s to kill and you kill at a little less than 90 with fresh down smash. Naners are real trouble but you just have to watch out for them. They almost always shield poke so you have to keep on the move. Get in safe down b's at every chance to get diddy in the air. Side b works really well on diddys shielding with naners in their hand because they like to wait, you'll either shield break or burry, both are free hits. DK>diddy offstage, the only big threat is diddy hump but just wait for it then punish. Weak bairs or nairs are amazing against rocket barrels because it just knocks him out and he basically just tumbles down and away. Punch>dash attack, punching his naners when he glide tosses them keeps out the punch long enough for the usual dash attack follow up to walk right into the trap. The biggest thing to worry about in this matchup is not letting diddy get stage control, either throw his naners offstage or use them if you really know what you're doing. Smart diddy's usually know what to do when people have their naners so if you're not confident the best thing to do is throw them off. MAKE SURE YOU KEEP THE PRESSURE ON WHEN HE DOESN'T HAVE BANANAS. This is very important, don't forgo match momentum to charge a punch. If he throws a banana and it bounces off your shield you can try to jump OoS and z catch it if you like. If diddy throws a banana at you don't roll back unless it will take you farther back than the distance of the banana. Often times you'll roll into the banana and just trip anyway. Sometimes you can get in grab armored grabs during his dash attack, especially if you perfect shield. His dash attack isn't completely safe but it is extremely good still. Make sure you don't airdodge immediately after you get hit by habit either. Diddys are extremely good at following this up by throwing naners where you will land or with grabs. You beat him in the air with your bair, he can't compete. This matchup just has to be played extremely smartly or the diddy will wreck you.
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