Matchup Thread: WHAT TIME IS IT?

[Daruku.Pichi-San]

I have not played bum since the summer. Like in july in one tournament match. Got 2 stocked in both. This was when I could not fight DK at all and he was my worst match up. I would have to play him now and see how it goes. But it be tuff since I don't play in N.Y tournaments

 

[CBK]

Okay okay then thats what I'm saying, Myself and Edrees both have our own opinions but we have somewhere to base them on. Since we have played the best of both characters, *matter of oppinion I know*, but regardless Gant I don't think you've fought my DK and trust me if you think a defense game is what Dk does to win. Your wrong, rush down peach making her unable to camp is the smartes thing you can do. Keeping her off her feet and moving is the way to go. I can't very well let you set up a tent and win now can I?

 

[gantrain05]

Okay okay then thats what I'm saying, Myself and Edrees both have our own opinions but we have somewhere to base them on. Since we have played the best of both characters, *matter of oppinion I know*, but regardless Gant I don't think you've fought my DK and trust me if you think a defense game is what Dk does to win. Your wrong, rush down peach making her unable to camp is the smartes thing you can do. Keeping her off her feet and moving is the way to go. I can't very well let you set up a tent and win now can I?

i totally agree with that, we really should play sometime, maybe find a tourney thats within reasonable distance for us both to travel, somewhere in between nevada and iowa lol. but yeah i got ya, but i play a pretty defensive peach, im used to playing too many MK's and marths and G&W so being rushed down is nothin new to me =P

 

[CBK]

Ah but thats where I say DK is a whole different kind of beast, not centered around gimps or low percent kills on edge. He fights you hard and lives long and he sure is going to give your defense a test that it might not forget.

 

[CBK]

He probably has the lowest center stage kill percents in the game (rather more commmon center stage kills than any other character on the roster.

 

[CBK]

Well I really only travel to big tourny's and seeing as West COast has many of them you should come to one. I know we here in RenoSmash might just be going east coast for some tournies.

 

[gantrain05]

Well I really only travel to big tourny's and seeing as West COast has many of them you should come to one. I know we here in RenoSmash might just be going east coast for some tournies.

well i'd love to go west/east coast tournies, only problem is im like a billion miles away from both, it would take alot of willpower, (and a week off of work) for me to be able to travel that far =/

 

[CBK]

I live on the west coast and I'm going to the east thats will power come on.

 

[Daruku.Pichi-San]

Ok, here is the thing. I play different from other Peach players. Though Edresse is better than I am, the stuff you expect from him, don't from me. we are 2 different people with different ways of playing but same ideas. I'm known as Best Peach on the Main on the EC. And Azen is known for best Peach period on the EC.

I'm not stupid and know my match ups if I take the time to type essays and essays about them.I have played good DK in tournys. But mostly online since I don't run into many of them offline. Some good DK's online and ranked matches I have played and beat if it is not offline. I'm not other Peach players and do not play a typical Peach. so all that you are use to and would expect from a Peach player, shove all that out the window when comming to me. I say all this cause I think throughly. All that I lave said is from:

- Match up experience
- Talking about the match up
- Looking through the match up
- taking time too look at videos of the match up and seeing what works and doesnt work. also seeing why the player is winning or losing from both sides.

I make countless mistakes that don't get me as far as I want too in tournament cause of my own personal problems as some already know. But I am not stupid, and know alot when it comes to talking about this stuff and looking through it. Facts, info, looking at both parties. You can ask any Peach player that see's me post in the Peach area. I get down into detail, even with frame data to explain a match up, wether in peach's favor or not. i don't play around. My brains on match ups and info on Peach in general give me some back up to state me being the second best Peach main in the USA. I can't except that just yet for me having personal problems in tournaments. But not gonna get into that here.

Now I gotta read though all the post I missed, and comment on them, I will in my next post. Man I never worked this hard in a match up debate since we did pikachu.

 

[gantrain05]

please god don't bring up pikachu dark.pch, i thought Mister.E would never ever leave the peach boards lol.

 

[CBK]

Haha thats awesome, but anyways your right in a few aspects, the only thing is with limited knowledge*People who don't actually play Top level* Makes all this skewed, I'm not saying your not top level. But since it's been a while since your last time playing a good DK offline it's hard to say you know te matchup.

I've been around the competitive fighting scene for about 7 years now and we have a saying about frames and hitboxes and what not. It's theory, and I play a fighting game your playing a theory fighting game. My experiece superceeds your theory. Again not to sound abrasive just saying when one says 2 frame this and 3 frame startup. I say to you your thinking too much about it, why because you will keep asking yourself. Why did I lose I should have won.

 

[Daruku.Pichi-San]

well peach doesn't exactly approach using her ground game.... I'm just saying when peach starts floating d smash is a good solution sice it hits above DK also

You crazy? Glide tossing is one of her main and good ground approaches. it is used juct as much as her air ones.

And DK can approach the same in many different ways, obviously you've never played a good DK. YOu see what I mean, and please no ONline please.

Explain hoe he can approach with Peach. Cause the only good ones he has is his Bair. What else he has, you gonna come at me with Fairs or Dairs? You are asking to get hit. What does he have.

Not only can you come in with Bair, and tilts Upb is a great way to come in. SA punch is crazy good. Glide toss right back towards her Neutral air works wonders when she floats since you can insta up b and either knock her back or glide away from her punishment.

All situational but it's the same for peach, a good peach V DK should never come against him on the ground. That signifies the player doesn't have the knowledge to be scared of DK's crazy good ground game.

Ok I'll tell you right now, your ground approaches are slow. all it has is range. and for that I'll approach you from the air and it is a done deal with that.

If you approach me with Up-B, you are asking to get punished out of the shield and you like for like a sec after. Easy to get punished. To me that is the dumbiest thing thing DK can do to get inside. And with glide tossing I assume you mean if you get a hold of a turnip?

up b, side b, neutral b( surprised?), down b ( since you said peach has a great ground game I thought I'd include it)

Up-B= fail
S-B= WTF?
N-B= you asking to leave yourself open?
D-B= I short hop dairs and bye bye . Or toss a turnip to get you to stop. Also since the hit box on that move is wide, I can toad you at a safe distance and you get hit with the spores since it has good range.

 

[CBK]

YOu do know up b pokes through shield about 80% of the time right, and we can do whatever we want grab dsmash tilt down b you know right?

 

[slikvik]

Because DK is so good at killing, peach is probably not going to approach you. A good peach is really just going to camp you with turnips till you approach and attempt to dair combo you(at low percents) or grab. If they do approach, there will probably be a turnip preceding it, whether it be glidetossed to grab/jab/dair or jump thrown to some spaced aerial...or they may just perfectly space aerials on your shield waiting for you to mess up

 

[CBK]

Obviously DK's killing power doesn't really matter according to a few of the comments made earlier.

 

[gantrain05]

Obviously DK's killing power doesn't really matter according to a few of the comments made earlier.

it doesn't matter when it comes to approach =/ if KO power meant peach wasn't gonna approach she would never approach bowser or ganon either.

 

[Daruku.Pichi-San]

Haha thats awesome, but anyways your right in a few aspects, the only thing is with limited knowledge*People who don't actually play Top level* Makes all this skewed, I'm not saying your not top level. But since it's been a while since your last time playing a good DK offline it's hard to say you know te matchup.

I've been around the competitive fighting scene for about 7 years now and we have a saying about frames and hitboxes and what not. It's theory, and I play a fighting game your playing a theory fighting game. My experiece superceeds your theory. Again not to sound abrasive just saying when one says 2 frame this and 3 frame startup. I say to you your thinking too much about it, why because you will keep asking yourself. Why did I lose I should have won.

Ok if I play really good DK players online and offline and do well and really don't lose that fight, then That can back me up on me knowing the match up. Most of my matche ups I had to learn online. Then when I went to tournaments, I did fine against that character cause I studied and learned it through wifi.

Also what I said in my last post to you, this is exactly how I learn how to fight snake. Hardly played any good once when I first started. But I did all that stuff I just did to look into the match up. and I learned how to handle snake. Never had a problem with snake. if I lose it would be cause the player was better or I choked. it was nether the fact that I did not know or learn this on my own.

And I am not thinking to much with that last statement. I tend to choke alot in tournaments. my last east coast regionall tournaments I have done bad and lost matches I could have won on something stupid cause I can't maintain myself. It's my personal problem. And because of it, it stops me for playing the way I know how in tourny matches. The way I give facts, debate, and give advice is not how I would play in tournies. wish I could stop being an idiot and just do it already. I be scoring alot higher in tournaments than I do now. But again, this is not about me.

YOu do know up b pokes through shield about 80% of the time right, and we can do whatever we want grab dsmash tilt down b you know right?

You do know I can aim my shield so I don't get poked right?

 

[slikvik]

DKs killing power matters with is why peach won't be approaching you the majority of the time. approaching with upb against peach is a really bad idea btw...she can just hover right over it and dair it

 

[CBK]

Not always, even if you direct the shield it will sometimes *most of the time still poke* But anyways I do agree that it's a place to get a somewhat of a grasp you can never really understand Offline play. For instance when I play online it's a completely different game and I'm playing all the top players. It's a different game all together because of the lag and even slight lag can change a game drastically.

 

[Daruku.Pichi-San]

I know it is a different game. When I play online. I just think ahead of time. And I can play like if it was offline. To me a green connection is good for great gameplay. That just feeles like if you was playing smash on a HD TV. Its not really a big deal and it is like, half a sec of lag. You can get use to that easy. anything past green I can understand. But as long as it is green or blue, get use to the half a sec input lag and I don't see a problem.

And no it won't. only way it will poke is if you don't follow the attack well or on point with the shield. When I shield meta's tornado, I always aim my shield. When I do, he NEVER shield stabs me, no matter how small my shield is.

 

[CBK]

Okay but in RL powershielding is a lot more common and punishing out of shield is much more useful. Sure a half second of lag shouldn't change anything but it does quite a bit. Even with a green connection, punishing is more based on predicting at what point they are going to dodge since online makes you dodge happy. Especially when that half second can mean you unshielded right as DK punch is going into action. Your dead, a generalasation, not saying no good players play online that are offline good players just means that those players play differently online and off without it affecting one or the other.

 

[slikvik]

also because DK lives so long and kills so early, it negates the fact that DK gets outcamped and has no safe approaches...so I believe this match-up is 50-50

 

[Daruku.Pichi-San]

I am just gonna say that I always think ahead of time because of the lag. If I get hit with something or dont shield in time, it is because I did not react fast enough. we both get the same amount of lag. it is not a handicap match on wifi when it is green+

Now let me add some stuff with Peach here. Look at all her good stuff that can make up and help with her killing problems. This can also be added to what I have said already.

*Can Float.
* Auto-Floating allows use of aerials at ground level, allowing for a highly-integrated ground and air game, and removing the need for dashing
* Between the float, her second jump, her parasol, and small contributions by the Peach Bomber and Toad, she has one of the longest and most versatile horizontal recoveries in the game.
* Her Turnips are useful projectiles, especially for edgeguarding.
* There is a chance of pulling a Bob-omb or Beam Sword when using Vegetable.
* There is a 1/58 chance that she can pull a Vegetable that deals 30% damage or more.
* Down Smash is quick and has several powerful, high priority hits.
* Neutral attack slap is good for disrupting combos and grabs, as well as starting combos of her own.
* When Parasol is canceled in midair, it can be opened up again.
* Forward Aerial Crown Slap is a great horizontal killer.
* Turnips can be used over and over.
* Can Glide Toss her Turnips.
* Turnips disappear once they touch a shield
* Remarkably long horizontal recovery if her float is intact
* Quick, effective close-up game
* Amazing edgeguarder
* Can chain throw medium-heavy weight characters with Down Throw
* Turnips are excellent for camping, lead ins, and edgeguarding
* D-tilt can meteor smash opponents in the air trying to recover back to stages

Now for the many options to approach you, even though she really does not have too:

- Fair
- FC>Fair
- Dair
- FC>Dair
- FC>Nair
FC>Bair
- Turnip>Fair
- FC>Turnip>Fair
- Bair
- Glide tossing
- Nair

Advance approaches:

- Glide toss> FC>Nair
- Glide toss>reverse Bair
- Glide toss>Nair
- Glide toss>Grab
- Reverse Glide toss> Dsmash or Fsmash
- Reverse Glide toss> Bair

And the many ways she can rack up damage of combo We have options here my friend and lots of it:

Basic combos

-Dthrow>uptilt
-Dair>Nair
-Dair>Uair
-Dair>Fair
-Dair>Bair
-Jab>Dtilt
-Jab>grab
-Jab>Nair
-Jab>Nair
-Turnip>fair
-Turnip>Nair

Advance combos ( you would need good control of Peach and her floating as well)-

*= Depends on where your enemy is/goes after the first or second hit of the combo

-*Dair>Dair>Fair
-Dair>Dair
-Dair>Dair>Dair
-Dair>Dair>Dair>Uair
-*Dair>Dair>Dair>Uair>Up-B
-*Dair>Dair>falling Dair>Usmash/Utilt/Up-B
-*Dthrow>Ftilt>Uptilt/Usmash/Up-B
-*Dthrow>Ftilt>Jab>grab>Dthrow>Utilt/Uair/Up-B
-Bair>grab
-Fair>Jab>grab> (look at the list of what you can do after grabs)
-*Falling Dair>Jab>(look at the list of what you can do after jabs/grabs)
-*Falling Dair> Usmash/Utilt/Up-B/Nair/Bair

Man, Peach is really too good for this game.

 

[CBK]

Again yes those are thing she can do, and I understand but those may look flashy and quite accurate. But it doesn't translate to what I'm saying. If you have all that and I have a guide that says Dk has down throw forward tilt or dtilt to down b for 40 right there simple right, and one more combo that says look peach dies at 75% with a DK punch or Fsmash. While DK takes at least twice as much to die from crown slap or smash. maybe less with a tilt. But I'm just saying that what you have there are options. What I have is metagame not based on writing but on experience. And maybe I speak too centered on me, but thats whatI think.

Do like how much time and effort you put into that though. I'm just saying Dk doesn't need to know what he can hit in a combo just what he can hit twice and kill.

 

[Daruku.Pichi-San]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=167424

My Peach guide, Up to date and it is used with her meta game as today. so it's not just me writing stuff up that I know. The stuff I have in this guilde comes from Peach's meta and anything else to add to it. This guide is probably the most used when it comes to learning Peach. When you are bored, take some time to sit down and read it. What I just posted came from my guide. it deals, affects and helps with Peach's meta game and it is use alot by Peach players or anyone else who wants to learn about her and how she works/used to do well and win. Don't underestimate me sir. As I told you before. Anything I say I can back it up like I just did now.

And again, enough with the killing thing. Ok, DK can kill better. Is it the end of the world, what can Peach do, is that her weakness, are Peach players screwed? How does this affect the match up and how we can win? I just went through this a few pages back. What I just find dumb is that DK has KO power and all and people think that is all you need and you have lil to worry about, or it is that simple. Yea ok. keep thinking that boys and lets see when you face high ranked Peach players or azen of the USA, you come back to me and say all that was no sweat at all and all you had waskilling which was so easy to pull off.

I'm going to bed. I'll deal with any other post when I get up.

 

[CBK]

no but thats my reasoning for thinking it's a bit in DK's favor. Unfortunately unless someone changes my mind I'm going to have to say I don't think I'll lose.

 

[CBK]

See I'm not saying it's one sided just saying I think the matchup in my eyes goes as I just stated it. Not one sided just slightly in one direction.

 

[Nokonoko]

I’ve read that guide a few times, what with my many failed attempts at playing Peach, but that’s beside the point. (Have you read the DK guides here and on AiB?)

DP, this isn’t an analytical competition or a tit-for-tat play-by-play of obstinacy. There’s no point in presenting a list of all of Peach’s approaches and combos with a flourish. What does that prove for the matchup? Are you saying that none of them have openings to be punished by DK? How, exactly, do they compensate for her troubles with landing killing blows?

It’s fantastic that you’re willing to give so much thought and effort, but you have to directly debate the matchup. The discussion is just tangential now — all over the place.

You’ve already stated repeatedly that you believe that Peach has the advantage. I don’t see how your argument can progress from here unless you make some vs DK videos that document how Peach’s numerous options, of which you are so proud, can’t be beaten … or at least indicate why you’re so quick to dismiss all of DK’s approaches.

CBK, Ripple, et al have said clearly what DK can do. You seem to be discussing what you, personally, believe you are capable of.

/spam

 

[crifer]

lol It´s as if we would say "
we can time anything with SA frames, except grabs
-> u have no approach..."

u realize something?

 

[Airgemini]

Um on a different note, is Toad affective against his UP B? Just curious..

 

[CBK]

As a gimp, I don't really think so......but as damage racking maybe.

 

[TheNix]

Up-B= fail

I wish you would have said this five pages ago so I could have saved myself from reading all these posts. Alas, what could have been.

Theory-crafting is fine to an extent but I think we're getting a little overboard here. DK isn't so slow that you can perfectly dodge and punish every single attack. In the same way, I know I wont be able to punish it every single time a Peach tries to dair me, but I will be able to punish it sometimes.

For example, I mentioned earlier all the things we can do to hit Peach when she tries to double-dair. Someone else mentioned that Peach can instead do a nair and hit us out of that. This is true! But what if we didn't attack? Now we can just punish the nair. It's all theory, and it doesn't always work out the way you would think.

EDIT: Should restate that I still think this is a slight DK advantage. 55-45 or 60-40.

 

[ZxChrono]

i dont even know why your still trying to argue about the matchup being in peaches favor when you have no recent experience with a good DK player. that should have been the end of that, we have matchup experience against the bests peaches and the only dk you have that you played was bum and that was not recent. so unless you play a DK that is known to be good and prove its in peach's favor then you cant backup with your theorys of how peach can win.

 

[DrakeRowan]

EDIT: Should restate that I still think this is a slight DK advantage. 55-45 or 60-40.

50-50 or a 55-45 (Slight DK Advantage) sure!... but it's not a 60-40.

 

[Jmex]

I'd like to let everybody know, that DK Pretty much ***** Peach.
I consider myself to be a good peach player.
And CBK Stuck his donkey **** in my Peach, and pretty much 2 stocked it, twice. Once on a level that He wasn't supposed to win on. Frigate. >_<

Maybe it's just me, but this is so hard for peach. DK out Ranges her, and also completely screws up her Air game.
For the Peaches that Subsist on the Guess and Check method, (Spaced Double jump Fairs,) This is a bad matchup.

That is all.

Sky.... No offense to you, but im pretty sure you just dont know how to fight DK.

In all honesty, i think its 50-50. Both characters have a response to anything the other character can bring out. DK has more killing power, but its useless unless he can get inside and get the hit off. Peach has the speed and the spacing and that is much more important than killing power. Like i said before its an even matchup.

Also as i said before, when playing against a good peach, dont ever ever try to hit a peach when shes hogging the edge.

 

[CBK]

Me and sky play all the time, so it's not like he doesn't know it Jmex, Or maybe it's cuz we do play that I know how to play him. But Sky is definitely top three peaches on West Coast. He does really well against top players in SoCal.

I just think Dk has quite a fore more option than the peach boards are giving him credit for. I mean sure everyone says if you power shield punch but when you throw it between one of their moves. They can't very well shield right when they are hitting SA frames.

But listen I appreciate the peach boards helping out quite a bit with this and well to tell you the truth I've made my own oppinion so what goes on this board will not change it. I did get useful info thank everyone.

 

[Jmex]

Im not saying hes a bad peach or anything, and i dont know if you got used to his playing style. I do know however that he does not do well against DK's. I have played both Sky and Edrees, and bone for that matter (3-4 months ago). I usually do better against Sky's peach vs. Edrees's peach, granted that everyone has there own style to using the same character and all, but that also backs up the fact that Sky's own personal bad matchup is against DK.

 

[CBK]

On that I agree with you Jmex, it is totally possible that he doens't fair as well as Edrees. I guess thats why he does so good against SHadowRob. Anyways if everyone is satisfied with calling a 50-50 then we can move on please.

 

[Daruku.Pichi-San]

no but thats my reasoning for thinking it's a bit in DK's favor. Unfortunately unless someone changes my mind I'm going to have to say I don't think I'll lose.

And from your reason's I think that is stupid.

I’ve read that guide a few times, what with my many failed attempts at playing Peach, but that’s beside the point. (Have you read the DK guides here and on AiB?)

DP, this isn’t an analytical competition or a tit-for-tat play-by-play of obstinacy. There’s no point in presenting a list of all of Peach’s approaches and combos with a flourish. What does that prove for the matchup? Are you saying that none of them have openings to be punished by DK? How, exactly, do they compensate for her troubles with landing killing blows?

It’s fantastic that you’re willing to give so much thought and effort, but you have to directly debate the matchup. The discussion is just tangential now — all over the place.

You’ve already stated repeatedly that you believe that Peach has the advantage. I don’t see how your argument can progress from here unless you make some vs DK videos that document how Peach’s numerous options, of which you are so proud, can’t be beaten … or at least indicate why you’re so quick to dismiss all of DK’s approaches.

CBK, Ripple, et al have said clearly what DK can do. You seem to be discussing what you, personally, believe you are capable of.

/spam

No, what I am getting at is people thinking just because DK has power and kills better than Peach, that is all that he needs. Which is something stupid to say like it is that simple, and cause of that CBK thginks he wont lose. THAT is what I have been getting at. People think it is all about power and that simple. and it's not, or else characters with power just **** the rest of the cast.. Power is not everything and you people keep thinking so. And honestly, the way he is talking I don't think he get off more games then me and edreese if he was to play us.

I wish you would have said this five pages ago so I could have saved myself from reading all these posts. Alas, what could have been.

Theory-crafting is fine to an extent but I think we're getting a little overboard here. DK isn't so slow that you can perfectly dodge and punish every single attack. In the same way, I know I wont be able to punish it every single time a Peach tries to dair me, but I will be able to punish it sometimes.

For example, I mentioned earlier all the things we can do to hit Peach when she tries to double-dair. Someone else mentioned that Peach can instead do a nair and hit us out of that. This is true! But what if we didn't attack? Now we can just punish the nair. It's all theory, and it doesn't always work out the way you would think.

EDIT: Should restate that I still think this is a slight DK advantage. 55-45 or 60-40.

Read what I said above this post.

i dont even know why your still trying to argue about the matchup being in peaches favor when you have no recent experience with a good DK player. that should have been the end of that, we have matchup experience against the bests peaches and the only dk you have that you played was bum and that was not recent. so unless you play a DK that is known to be good and prove its in peach's favor then you cant backup with your theorys of how peach can win.

What I already told you I fought Good Dk players online in when I have gone to tournaments.

Also all that I said here proves how Peach can win. I broke down the match up and said all that I could have said on how Peach can handle this fight.

As I said before, I hardly touched snakes back then. I learned that match up on my own and then playing a few online. Then I went to tournaments and did good against snake If I lost it be by a stock and Yes I have played good ones and took them out in tourny. Aagain I am not stupid. I explained this match up from Peach's side and what she can do. You think I typed all of that for the hell of it? So Please tell me how I can't back up what I say? How much more into detail on this match do I need to get into before you stop saying that.

 

[Sky`]

Ungh.
Whatever, I honestly think that this is in DK's favor if only for a Smidgen.