Matchup Thread Export: Ice Climbers

[o-Serin-o]

ICE CLIMBERS

DIFFICULTY: HARD - 35:65 (PRO OPINION: 70:30)
CHAINGRAB: POSSIBLE BUT NOT REALISTIC (Normal CG only, Only when there's one)​

As you read these matchup summaries, you may notice several characteristics that characters with an advantage against King Dedede have. These vary from character to character, but the three biggest trends are:

• Cannot be chaingrabbed
• Can outcamp Dedede
• Can get a somewhat significant amount of free, uninterrupted damage on Dedede (via chaingrabs, locks, etc.)

The Ice Climbers share all three of these traits, hence they are Dedede's worst matchup. They take each of these characteristics and increase them to the max. Desynching allows for Ice Shot tricks that are downright ridiculous and can easily negate Waddle Dees. Blizzard racks up a good deal of damage, is a good setup for other moves, and goes past Waddle Dees. Their chaingrabs are more broken than yours by a large margin, to the point where getting grabbed almost always means losing a stock. And, as long as Nana is alive, they can't be grabbed at all. Ice Climbers **** Dedede right through his pants. No matchup in Brawl is impossible, but this is very close.

The first thing you need to realize to succeed in this matchup is that you absolutely cannot under any circumstance get grabbed. This means you need to space like crazy. Space like your life depends on it because it does. Ftilt, bair, dtilt, jab...pull out every trick in the book to stay out of their grab range. Stay in the air as much as you can and use bair, dair, and inhale to keep yourself from getting destroyed when you do have to land. Inhale in particular is good in this match when you're close to them since it's good at seperating them, which I'll talk more about below. Don't try to avoid them by ledgecamping though. They'll just desynch and use an Ice Block Lock to prevent you from getting back up.

The next important thing to realize in this matchup is that when there's only one Ice Climber, it's not even close to as bad as two. Killing Nana will completely turn the match around, so if you have an opportunity to kill her, take it. That said, focusing on her exclusively is too obvious and many good IC mains will realize what you're doing and punish you for it. Instead, just wait for an opportunity to pop up and then kill Nana. Of course, if you have a better opportunity to kill Popo, this is the better option.

Another thing to point out in this matchup is that Ice Climbers have a significantly worse air game than yours. ICs are more horizontally-oriented characters than vertically-oriented, as evidenced by their grab game, projectiles, sideB, etc. By comparison, their aerials are very bad and they really have nothing to do in the air other than Ice Shot and Blizzard. They also don't have great defense above them since your dair outranges their usmash (and I believe utilt) and they just generally have less priority than you. This works out well for you in the long run since you're going to spend most of your time in the air trying not to get grabbed anyway. It also means that if you can get ICs off the stage you will get a significant advantage since their recovery is only about average. Finally, you're going to need to approach in this matchup. The best way to do this is to use bair, dair, or Inhale. I like dair best in this scenario since it splits them up.

This is an interesting matchup.

Ice Climbers have the advantage [...] Simply put, it's Ice Climbers. All IC's have to do is wait around to get 1 grab and it's over. Dedede has to play a really tight spacing game while being smarter then the opponent to win this one. IC's big advantage over a lot of characters is being able to desync so quickly into a blizzard (typically a guaranteed grab if any character is caught in it).

Abusing Dedede's excellent vertical range while punishing IC's lack of it (besides the belay, where Nana is an invincible hitbox XD) is key here. Dair splits them up nicely, allowing you to go for a fair or bair afterwards on defenseless nana.

ok nap time.

If ic know what to do. DDD cant land a single grab which is his best way to seperate (Ic can predict the grab coming and jab immidiately). Ummm. You can possible gimp them, but ic can mix their recovery and go low or wait till after DDDs bair comes out. Throwing waddle Ds out is good because they cant bait ice block chaser on you for a free grab. Dont spam ftilt because we can run and shield through it.

What makes this match up difficult for DDD is he cant approach ic at all and ic have the option of picking apart DDD little by little. Its almost like a harder version of olimar vs ic. You use desynches to approach DDD because he cant approach period except when ic are in a bad situation. You use desynches to force ddd to do stuff. Ice blocks to jump in the air or blizzard to jump in the air. If they get hit by either ic can run into and grab.

Atomsk use to do spaced fsmashes which work really well, but if ic just walk in and shield u can react better to it. Most ic dash in and shield, but the shield always comes out a little later because of the dash animation being slightly laggy.

It is an unwinnable match up if ic use desynching effectively and dont mess up cging. And if DDD is off stage recovering without enough jumps expect to eat a TON of damage recovering. You up b high we can up b DDDs recovery or uair. go below the stage we can grab DDD b4 they grab the ledge for a free ledge spike.

Sucking is really good if you use it in a smart manner. If you suck and immediately spit DDD is invinicble so he cant get punish. I guess u can shield if nana gets sucked and react? but it never comes through my mind to do that.

Ic just limit DDDs options waay too much (entire grab game).

ICS:

Bair approach, once in, dair camp, footstool and dairs, one lands on sheilds insta-pokes (two shields and a strong rapid hit attack greatly deminishes the shields further) IF they somehow didn't poke, u can jump again/footstool away, or dair again, def. poking at least one, seperating them.
Once seperated DDD has some of the best "keep sepereated" game in the game. One being plain grabing each as they try to get near each other, bair spamming, or charging things like dsmash.

Also if u think they continue to hold shield and are afraid of them uaring out of shield between dairs u get free mixup with inhale, if u instantly spit it out it's gona hit the one u didn't inhale.

HOPEFULLY u inhalled popo so at worst the quick punishment is a jab or something.

Bairs=easier gimping capabilities than mk's dair, as it flat out can beat IC's side b, sending them far back off, and lower at low %. also charge sidesmash is nice here, the range and power on that makes it easier to hit, something mk's fsmash lacks (i often take the side b when i try to time mk's fsmash to hit them off)

and if u grab one (right next to the other) i like uthrow instead of foward
its fast enough u can throw one up, it pushes the other back, u grab the other, throw up into the other, air chase original, repeat (also easy seperation, but don't look for grabs its risky as balls)

There's also the factor (don't know if u count in in the meta gameness of the matchup) that ddd is harder to inf. and takes longer to kill=more chances of messing up.


Only "gay" thing about the matchup is the edgeguards to be honest.

No IC's do it vs ddd cuz they're dumb and i may be regreting saying this.
All they gotta do from a grab is take to the edge into a fair spike, and grab ledge, wait for up b as nana still has ledge, get up, grab it, new grab inf. or fair spike again (keep in mind ddd doesn't get any jumps back in this process)


but yea, thats only one real advantage IC's have in the matchup that I see being a problem. And THAT assumes the DDD got grabbed to begin with.

Then if DDD does get a lead I feel he's harder to approach while platform camping than MK, but that's just me and my experiences.

Good Stages:
Battlefield, Norfair, Brinstar, Rainbow Cruise​

Forget everything you know about what stages are in Dedede's favor. In most of your matchups, you'll want big stages with lots of space to camp and chaingrab. Against ICs you just want to take cover and try as hard as possible not to get grabbed. Due to the nature of Ice Shot, platforms are your best friend in this match since hiding under one can help you avoid it and platform camping can . All the stages listed are good for this reason. Lylat Cruise's tilting is also good for messing with their recovery, which is something you will likely need to do. Rainbow Cruise is particularly good since they can't spend too much time on their chaingrabs without risking suiciding. ICs aren't affected by stage choice a ton, so aside from moving stages and stages with lots of platforms they don't have many other weaknesses.

Bad Stages:
Final Destination, Smashville, Yoshi's Island Brawl​

Large stages where they can camp and chaingrab the **** out of you. FD should usually be the stage you ban since it epitomizes what a bad stage is in this matchup.

 

[Gates]

See above...

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

This matchup is Even IMO, i havnt played lain with what i personally know of the matchup so i wont be able to say for certain what WILL or will NOT work, but as far as i know, ddd can actually dair camp IC's harder than mk can.


I would love to play lain sometime, i wish he'd come down to FL so we can GREATLY expand King ddd's metagame within a week.

I'd so house him for that week strait. Also, i'd say him come here cuz Co18 is here too and we could meet all at one tourny after the week's past to discuss what we've found.


Just throwin it out there, should prolly talk about this with him personally in the back room.

 

[lain]

I'd love to!

 

[CO18]

THEN COME TO FLORIDA GAMING AUGUST 8th lol.

Judge said you guys may be coming. Gonna be big son. Come. Check atl south its stickiedd.

 

[T3h Albino]

florida gaming is gonna be amazing lol

 

[o-Serin-o]

florida gaming is gonna be amazing lol

The Ham Ham boards got you too?!

 

[T3h Albino]

i 2nd pikachu and ice climbers ;B

 

[o-Serin-o]

NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

caps

 

[CRASHiC]

Yeah, this matchup is more like 20:80. I got three stocked by a level 9 SoPo today.

Also, can I hear how ICs outcamp us? What stops us from doing this

I found this japanese vid of a crews battle where D3 vs 2 stock IC's was :l
He just camped the edge for 4 minutes, inhaled, jumped off and B-aired. 2nd stock he D3-cided. He took 5 damage the whole match. He is my role model and inspires me to pick up D3

/story

 

[Gates]

Crashic, did you see the video in question? Those ICs were horrible. If I went to Ann Arbor tomorrow and tried that **** against lain he'd destroy me.

 

[T3h Albino]

lol dtilt that ****

 

[Dark 3nergy]

**** the japanese got us beat

brb moving my **** to japan

 

[Jupz]

Yay Crashic is unbanned

I also use Ice Climbers as one of my secondarys. Try to split them up with Dairs, I'm not sure if Dair outranges their Uair. Gimp Nana when they are seperated. Or Popo, if you get the chance.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

yeah, seperate with dairs, than you get free jet hammers, fsmashes, or charged dsmashes when the nana tries to get to popo.

 

[Fogo]

Can IC uair hit through DDD's dair?

 

[Commander_Beef]

Can IC uair hit through DDD's dair?

I remember that being asked and confirmed in a different thread, and no it doesn't. Our range prevails every time.

 

[Jupz]

Its because we have the bigger hammer

If they shield/powershield Ftilt, can they punish with a grab?

 

[o-Serin-o]

This matchup is just... ugh...

 

[Gates]

If they shield/powershield Ftilt, can they punish with a grab?

Are you talking about shield grab or dash grab?

Shield grab depends on the spacing, but generally no they can't.

Dash grab they probably can punish fairly easily.

 

[Jupz]

I was talking about Dash grab from Ftilts max range, I wouldn't be dumb enough to use it right next to the IC's

 

[Gates]

Serin is taking over this thread so I'm bumping it.

 

[o-Serin-o]

Stickied for discussion whenever as a bad matchup.

 

[vanstrummer]

I like the f-smash in this particular match up, spaced properly and not over used its pretty safe. If Popo shields in time, it pushes them both too far away to punish. If popo perfect shields, the shield lag makes it likely that nana is going to get hit, which usually ko's if not it at least separates them which is always good. Just don't over use it because it can become predictable And the down-smash properly spaced also either separates or pressures the shield.

And lastly, i'm sure its been said 100 times, but DON'T GET GRABBED. 1 grab from a decent IC pretty much is a loss of a stock.

Try to take it to BF and ban FD. Although, my favorite IC CP is Rainbow Cruise

 

[Commander_Beef]

Norfair is even better.

You said it vanstrummer, forward smash. Their dash is fast and their dashgrab is surprisngly good, so unless if you know you won't get punished from them being far enough away, don't throw waddle dees in that range and use ftilt every now and then.
When they are both together, don't try to back throw one of them as the other will react with sometin. Although our fthrow lacks frames enough to not get punished, and the hammer in this animation will hit the other ice climber. It's completely safe.

 

[Tmacc]

My biggest advice is space FHdairs, Fsmash can be **** in this MU because of their shield lag, take advantage of separations (go for Nana, she iz dum.) stay in the air as much as possible IMO.

when they desync and shoot and ice block in, ROLL BACK. do not shield the ice block, because on of the ICs is coming in for a grab and if you shield, you will get grabbed (Fogo taught me that and it works wonders)

ummm different grabs in different situations, fthrow is really good because it hits both ICS. don't be scared to grab, but definately don't be too conservative; they can work for us

take advantage when they are offstage, separated or not. if they over b at you, uptilt.

space ftilt on them. it annoys the hell out of them and messes up their desync.

mix spaced bair with spaced FHdair, or even lagless fair-->ftilt/dtilt.

That's all i got for now...lol

 

[Vayseth]

USE WADDLES. It'll slow their approach and allow you do use different mix ups. F Tilt and F smash are also pretty good here. Just keep away and occasionally run up and F throw them because the hammer will hit both of them if you're fast enough. Then you can run up and throw the other one the opposite way. Sneak separation techs.

 

[Ic3berg]

This is pretty much what I've come up with from my experience with the matchup and talking with other Pacific Northwest D3's

Fsmash is obviously really good and people have mentioned why already.

F tilt ***** if used at full range, goes through blizzard but use wisely since it can be power shielded into a grab which means you lose a stock.

Jab works really well too, jab imo is really good and underrated for d3. If you do the 3 hit then you're doing 15%+ to them and it punishes shields/spot dodges if they're trying to get a grab. If you jab cancel after 2 hits then you can d tilt which knocks them back or fthrow which knocks back and seperates. Depending on if you know they're going to shield.

One thing I found out thats amazing is inhale when next to the ledge because it draws one inside you and the other off the stage. Usually what happens when this occurs is that popo gets sucked in and nana buffers and aerial because the opponent was trying to hit you with something. So what I do is just suck popo up spit him towards the center and ledge hog nana cause even if she doesn't buffer an aerial she cant recover on her own from that.

Dair works really well too when you know they're going for the grab obviously

Easy edgeguards once they are off stage. You can bair the squall which most of the time causes nana to fall in freefall and die which means popo is done for. If you see they are going to up b then you fast fall and hit popo since he is vunerable while nana rises.

Strike fd/sv if it's 5 neutrals
ban fd
counterpick brinstar/cruise/bf

 

[toobusytocare]

inhale is a gimmick in this matchup

if the IC player is even romotely smarth they'll just blizzard, IB, or roll behind for a free grab

 

[Ic3berg]

If the d3 is even remotely smart then he would only inhale when its actually useful and the ic's wouldn't be able to react to it

 

[toobusytocare]

no like, if D3 inhales at any time, ICs can blizzard and only D3 takes damage if they are about to get sucked in <_<

 

[o-Serin-o]

Honestly, when I play ICs, I just Dair, get hit by the uair if they shield it, wait for the blizzard, then react.

I don't find it THAT hard to get grabbed, forreal.

 

[Tmacc]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRx3__4TnNI&feature=related

For shizzle. Good vid to watch for this MU, overall, IMO.

 

[Coney]

that vid is a really bad example of the matchup to be honest

meep messed up the CG several times...the CG on DDD is so easy, it really shouldn't be messed up like that

well it's not easy but, what meep does now is just fthrow > footstool > block reset

getting grabbed is, quite simply, unacceptable

meep messes up the CG in the second and third stock, that should've been both stocks gone for him

i mean there are definitely some good things here, like the use of fsmash, and atomsk played really well, but don't expect to make those kind of mistakes and get away with them.

 

[o-Serin-o]

Dropping CG is the ICs' problem and if they mess up, we should be able to capitalize and learn from our mistakes before we get grabbed again.

 

[o-Serin-o]

Dropping CG is the ICs' problem and if they mess up, we should be able to capitalize and learn from our mistakes before we get grabbed again.

 

[Coney]

well sure but, when playing a high-level ICs, it should almost never happen considering the fthrow>footstool>block is so simple

a better video would showcase ddd not getting grabbed at all, which is very difficult...i think junk had a video from a while ago of him beating an ICs just by playing EXTREMELY defensive

 

[Coney]

SO NICE l HAD TO SAY IT TWICE

 

[o-Serin-o]

Check out that 502 in both of our posts.

And I think the ICs was SuSa.

...

 

[T3h Albino]

I've still yet to have a real problem with this matchup...