Matchup Rediscussion: Zelda vs Peach

[JigglyZelda003]

umm....ok, how about we move on to prefered stages to combat Peach on or something.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Distant planent and corneria are beautiful.... and also normally banned.

Frigate orpheon? The dip in the one orientation of the stage makes float spacing significantly more difficult for her. And both stage orientations keep Peach from getting to far away.

 

[KayLo!]

Battlefield works for me as long as you don't get usmashed through a platform. Castle Siege as well.

But I like.... normal stages. Frigate always spells doom for me.... it likes to flip me underneath the stage.

 

[Ochobobo]

neither is Zelda.

But Zelda does have telepathy, lol. She just doesn't announce it like Ness and Lucas.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Battlefield works for me as long as you don't get usmashed through a platform. Castle Siege as well.

But I like.... normal stages. Frigate always spells doom for me.... it likes to flip me underneath the stage.

i think BF is a bit more helpful to Zelda in this matchup, dark pch may say otherwise cause thats his personal playground. as for frigate, thats not my peach stage so i can't say much about it.

But Zelda does have telepathy, lol. She just doesn't announce it like Ness and Lucas.

lol

 

[Meru.]

Mehh, I don't think stages really matter in this match-up. If I were Zelda I would go BF, but it still doesn't really make a difference. Maybe a very small one.

I wouldn't pick Distant Planet. Lightning Kicks work well here, of course, but so does Usmash for Peach.

And if it isn't banned, the best stage for Zelda is definitely Corneria.

Overall, this matchup will be tough for Zelda. If you use Sheik, use her to help Zelda out.

Sheik is easier than Zelda for Peach.

 

[Brinzy]

They feel equally bad to me.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Peach beats sheik in the air-air and air-ground more than Zelda and its even easier to gimp her than Zelda

 

[Half-Split Soul]

So in short: whatever you do, you´re screwed against Peach.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

So in short: whatever you do, you´re screwed against Peach.

the matchup isn't THAT bad. No matter what you do that is allowed at a tournament, peach should have the advantage, but that's not so bad. It's a winnable matchup, it's just a disadvantageous one.

 

[mountain_tiger]

So, is it generally agreed that it's around 60:40 Peach's favour?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I would say so. 65:45 at the wors, but there's no way that it's zelda's advantage either. We all say peach has a pretty noticable advantage so it's not even 55:45. It's from the 60:40-65:35 range, probably hovering around the more even side of that spectrum

 

[TheREALShadowChaos]

Lol *****fight. I think that Zelda wins because Peach's hair is easier to grab and pull.

So it's probably 70-30 Zelda.

 

[-Mars-]

Peach beats sheik in the air-air and air-ground more than Zelda and its even easier to gimp her than Zelda

This statement made me laugh. There is no such thing as Sheik being easier to gimp than Zelda.

Futhermore the Peach matchup is actually slightly easier as Sheik. You can pretty much camp Peach with needles, avoid her camping, Sheiks utilt beats out most of Peach's air approaches(i'm not sure about fair). Sheik's speed does give Peach problems, I remember Choknater and Eddress used to play this matchup all of the time and Chok always had some good tips on the matchup.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Sheik gets hurt by peach's combo powers more and doesn't kill peach as easily, but sheik has enough advantages (boost smash pwns fair approach) to warrent at least using Zelda/Sheik

 

[JigglyZelda003]

, I remember Choknater and Eddress used to play this matchup all of the time and Chok always had some good tips on the matchup.

i think i remember Edreese saying something like neddle camping and dacus when Peach jumps.

from the other side i feel a little better as Zelda in this matchup than sheik, and i can't dacus.....

 

[Brinzy]

There's one situation where Zelda is harder to kill off than Sheik is, and that's getting knocked away from the stage without your double-jump. Of course, that's really the only one, barring a few meteors where only Zelda can make it back.


Zelda/Sheik vs. Peach = even

 

[Meru.]

i think i remember Edreese saying something like neddle camping and dacus when Peach jumps.

from the other side i feel a little better as Zelda in this matchup than sheik, and i can't dacus.....

IMO Sheik's DACUS makes a big difference in the Peach vs Sheik match-up, it's really a stupid @$$ thing for Peach.

 

[mountain_tiger]

IMO, it's slightly easier for Sheik, but she still has some problems against Peach. Peach cna float over her needle camping, and she can Nair out of Sheik's FTilt locks (I swear that 80% of Sheik's metagame revovles around her FTilt...). Though her DACUS is indeed very annoying, and Sheik definitely has a speed advantage. I'd say it's a slight advantage for Peach overall.

 

[Brinzy]

It's not an ftilt lock if your opponent can attack you out of it.

And since we're all suddenly agreeing that Sheik does better, why was my statement of "If you use Sheik, use her to help Zelda out" a problem? I'm 90% sure that Sheik does better in this fight than Zelda because she can punish so many more things that Zelda, the punisher, cannot.

 

[mountain_tiger]

It's not an ftilt lock if your opponent can attack you out of it.

You knew what I meant. >_>

But yeah, Sheik can punish Peach better than Zelda for the most part, because Sheik's attacks are generally much faster than Zelda's (not that Zelda's are particularly slow or anything...)

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Zelda just has the super hitboxs of a car attached to her

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Sheik can punish Peach more often than Zelda can because sheik is fast enough to reach peach more often.... but sheik is easier for Peach to wrack damage on. Boost Smashing REALLY helps. W/O it, sheik's got a noticeable uphill battle. With it, sheik's matchup feels pretty close.

But definitely supliment sheik with Zelda. That should be a no brainer.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Oh Darn. Seems I am a lil late for this party. How you boys doing?

Well I just skim through these pages, cause I honestly don't know what I can say or clear up here. Seems all has been said already. But one thing did catch my attention........

This statement made me laugh. There is no such thing as Sheik being easier to gimp than Zelda.

Futhermore the Peach matchup is actually slightly easier as Sheik. You can pretty much camp Peach with needles, avoid her camping, Sheiks utilt beats out most of Peach's air approaches(i'm not sure about fair). Sheik's speed does give Peach problems, I remember Choknater and Eddress used to play this matchup all of the time and Chok always had some good tips on the matchup.

Sheik can't needle camp Peach. Only way that is happening is if the Peach player is a fiend for getting turnips. if not, You can't camp her with needles. But because of the needles, Peach, can't camp you, so you get something out of it.

A spaced Fair>uptilt.

Shiek has the speed but if Peach spacing is on point, that speed does not do too much for her. Cause just like sonic, all that speed but can't touch me. But thie speed does help a lil.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Is it my imagination or do the terms "camp" "force an approach" and "evade" seem to be used interchangeably.

If you're CAMPING.... you're sitting off to one side of the stage and refusing to do anything except shoot projectiles while they are far away or maybe knock them away once they get close.

Of course, Wario can't really camp... he can just run away and dodge forever. That's evading... but it's not camping.

Forcing an approach can be done many ways... can be one of the above or another.

But to hear a projectile character getting outcamped by a non-projectile character is silly sounding. And to say someone can camp someone else when really they just force an approach is also not entierly correct.

 

[-Mars-]

Forcing an approach is camping........how else do you want to define camping?

Camping involves far more than projectiles. Wario and things like DDD bair camping are two of the most common examples.

The word camp means basically to stay put, so if you have a lead and you just stand on the other side of the stage, then that is technically camping.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Warios air camping is too sexy, and annoying.....

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Forcing an approach is camping........how else do you want to define camping?

Staying put and entrenched is camping... whether it forces the foe to approach or not.

It's when we just lump everything like it into one definition that we suddently have miscommunications.

 

[-Mars-]

I think people should just discuss camping when referring to how effective a character is at camping another. This is just common sense but of course any charcter can stay put and technically camp if they have a lead. I can camp MK with Ganon if I have a lead.......but he will have no problem hitting me. Now if i'm Falco, there is an actual chance that I could camp a Ganon and there would be no way for him to even touch me.

Now you can also discuss camping in a different way. Does my characters camp game put my foe in disadvantageous positions? If so then that is effective camping. Does Peach'a camping truly put Zelda in a disadvantageous position? Or keep Zelda from even touching Peach?

 

[Kataefi]

So the general jist of this matchup is looking at roughly 40:60 for Zelda... I'll write a summary tonight. edit: anyone got any stages they enjoy fighting on vs peach to hinder her kill power some more or hinder other things? I quite like final D here for the space it gives.

 

[-Mars-]

I love Halberd against Peach. Easy vertical KO's favor you more than Peach(her usmash is difficult to land with consistently). You've got a nice platform to work with and the stage is large which gives you nice spacing options.

 

[Praxis]

I like to pick Japes against Zelda, personally.

I consider this Peach's favor. Peach just has to camp, really bad. xD Run into attacks with a turnip in hand, shield, turnip OOS. Good times.

Zelda will punish Peach's floating really bad, so I usually remain grounded in this matchup and rely on turnips. Nair stops din's fire, but Din's can be annoying offstage as it forces me to drop my float and can intercept Peach bomber.

65:45 at the wors

It's Peach's favor, but not THAT much in her favor. xD Definitely winnable on the part of the Zelda, as she punishes Peach's mistakes badly.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

well. Japes is a no brainer... peach wins there big time.

Corneria and Distant planet are great for us... where at least one of them isn't banned.

I think most of the neutrals are fairly neutral though... all of them having their share of advantages and disadvantages.

unfortunately, neutral on the part of the stage still means peach's advantage overall.

 

[gantrain05]

I love Halberd against Peach. Easy vertical KO's favor you more than Peach(her usmash is difficult to land with consistently). You've got a nice platform to work with and the stage is large which gives you nice spacing options.

its just me, but i will ban halberd every single time i play, honestly i don't know what zeldas think of BF but thats my favorite stage ever for peach i'd probably take zelda/shiek there.

as for the DACUS, peach's Nair will knock shiek out of it, its hard to time, and you have to kind of predict it coming, but it works. i don't know much else of this matchup as i only play 2 shiek mains and its not very often, but i can say that i've never actually lost this matchup, play super turnip spammy against zelda, and play really at mid range against shiek and more or less try to punish, perfect shield is your friend, and never ever ever roll lol.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

its just me, but i will ban halberd every single time i play, honestly i don't know what zeldas think of BF but thats my favorite stage ever for peach i'd probably take zelda/shiek there.

as for the DACUS, peach's Nair will knock shiek out of it, its hard to time, and you have to kind of predict it coming, but it works. i don't know much else of this matchup as i only play 2 shiek mains and its not very often, but i can say that i've never actually lost this matchup, play super turnip spammy against zelda, and play really at mid range against shiek and more or less try to punish, perfect shield is your friend, and never ever ever roll lol.

Peach's nair isn't fast enough to beat sheik's boost smash on reaction unless sheik's trying to hit you at max distance. You have to pull it out on prediction, and, if you predict incorrectly, which you probably would be doing since predicting boost smash like that would be hard, you have enough cooldown for sheik to punish.

 

[-Mars-]

How do you guys feel that Brinstar would do against Peach? I know it screws over our recovery, but it has pillars for Zelda and if you need to go Sheik you can always hit the thingies to have your ftilt completely decayed. It also has a lot of platform for Zelda to work with, and puts a little restrictions on Peachs camp game.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Peach's nair isn't fast enough to beat sheik's boost smash on reaction unless sheik's trying to hit you at max distance. You have to pull it out on prediction, and, if you predict incorrectly, which you probably would be doing since predicting boost smash like that would be hard, you have enough cooldown for sheik to punish.

Peach needs to beat that upsmash boost? Ok. First off, her Nair is 2 frames. And has invincibility frames. 3 in the front, 2 in the back. An all I have to do is ground float to a Nair and that >upsmash boost.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Peach needs to beat that upsmash boost? Ok. First off, her Nair is 2 frames. And has invincibility frames. 3 in the front, 2 in the back. An all I have to do is ground float to a Nair and that >upsmash boost.

I know the NAIR is fast, but human reaction time is not gonna beat out the boost smash unless you KNOW it's coming... and sheik is not doing its job if you KNOW it's coming.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I know the NAIR is fast, but human reaction time is not gonna beat out the boost smash unless you KNOW it's coming... and sheik is not doing its job if you KNOW it's coming.

For ME,I'll but it like this:

When I am at a percent I can die from an upsmash, I get ready for it Cause that would be the best option to get a decent kill. I do this with most characters sometimes. I get ready for an assult that would end me.

 

[sniperworm]

I know the NAIR is fast, but human reaction time is not gonna beat out the boost smash unless you KNOW it's coming... and sheik is not doing its job if you KNOW it's coming.

Actually, including the startup from running and dash attacking, it takes 20-21 frames for a DACUS to hit (input Usmash on frame 9 or 10, Usmash hits after 11 frames).

Here's a quote from East's frame data regarding DACUS:

Frame [1-6]: Dash
Frame [7]: Dash Attack
Frame [8]: No Input
Frame [9-10]: Up Smash = DACUS
Frame [11+] Whiff

During the first 6 frames of a dash, you cannot put in the input for a dash attack or it will cancel the dash into a forward smash. On the 7th frame you can input dash attack. On the 8th frame you cannot put in any inputs [what I assume is start up lag]. You have between the 9th and 10th frame to input the Up Smash to get a DACUS. What that means is Sheik has 3 frames from your dash attack to input the Up Smash to get a DACUS. Which means if you input it too quickly, you'll whiff. If you input it too slowly you'll whiff.

A 20 frame move is definitely something that a person can react to if they're expecting it. However, most people won't be expecting to get hit from such a range or will be too preoccupied with what they're doing to block it.

I'd also like to point out that it's humanly possible to shield Sheik's Usmash on reaction (hits on frame 11, so you have 10 frames to react), it's just very rare to find someone with that kind of reactions.