Matchup Re-Discussion: Marth

[Toby.]

haha ok sounds fine to me.

I thought you were saying that we should just stay away and airdodge the majority of the time

 

[gamesuxcard]

haha nah that'd be funny though.

also, while i'm in here:
I HATE MARTHA.

 

[Blacknight99923]

That something is the skill level of the pikachu player. Look at it this way, Marth is a human character right? He just has a sword.... *emphasis on sarcasm*.

We play pikachu. We freakin evolve, man ^_^! It doesn't take bazillions of years or dozens of generations for us to evolve or advance our abilities.

All we need is:

1 lifetime,
1 stimulus (thunderstone, or for a player... it could be "determination to win, earn money, revenge, or get fame")
1 and the courage/drive to use it (the thunderstone, or your determination) ^_^

*********************
/end philisophical Poke'talk
/start reasonable Smash'talk

Well, I will face Dr. PP's marth a dozen times (He said he'll train me to beat marth ^_^) and then get back with REAL results. But with my small handful experience against Dr. PP, HRnut, and Kadaj's marth thus far, I'd have to say:

Don't get tipped. If you are gonna get cut anyways, choose how you get cut. You want mere flesh wounds.... No sliced arteries or jugulars today... ^_^

Don't take too many sword dances. DI out of up and down variations. Shield all of it and punish, or grab/SH f-air during pauses and openings. Don't let a "dancing prince" kick your ***.

Don't let Marth get back onto the stage. Jolt his recovery paths, Thunder wall him, Stay out of ledgehop f-air range and shield>spotdodge ledgehopped nair or his weird landing u-air/up-b. He's just a prince, but you are the king of that hill.

Don't get up-b'ed in the face when at 140+%. Don't make the same mistake that Sagat (streetfighter) made. Unlike Sagat, You won't even have a cool looking scar that you can brag about.

Learn how NOT to get chaingrabbed into gay tippers. Pika is no beat up plush toy. (just have a good marth do it to you for practice or friendly and get used to dealing with it)

If you shield the first F-air of marth's, PLAN AND DO YOUR NEXT MOVE BEFORE MARTH DOES! Marth's sure as heck planning something else, so you should too ^_^.

Don't get stagespiked or ken-comboed. Tech all of them and dodge the "ken." Stay below marth more of the time and u-air any mindgamed spike chances or footstool. Pika is not a volleyball--Jigglypuff is.

If you get "shield breaker'ed," just put down the controller and let the marth do his thing. You won't be waste your strength or time getting out of the stun, and you'll look like a cool, seasoned veteran while doing it.

Watch out for weird crap: n-air sour>d-smash/u-smash; jab>tipper; b-air>reverse spike; SH f-air>u-air; d-tilt>f-air fury. You worry more about the crazy psychopaths than rational thinking killers.

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

Be all that you can be, fellow Pikas.

--LDPK, Legendary Pikachu

1. Don't get hit, Marths tipper is somthing we practice forever I garuntee you have little control over than when you chooze to shield

2. Why even bring up Ken combo?

3. its actually better to mash buttons whule in broken shield stun sa it reduces time and some marths will try to F smash tipper and miss

4. Marth only has retreating on his mind after fair, I wouldn't recomend trying to punish it as he an actually get the hit box for a second fair out after the first which will **** al your approuches

5. In this match up your pretty much going to have to get marth to lag and likewise punish. Get him above you, Don't approuch him for no reason make sure your their to punish somthing or have a strategy in mind

6 dont D smash you will get ***** for it
7. Marth recovery is fast if you can't edgegaurd him properly don't even bother

In all honesty there is no reason for marth to lose to you guys in the end your better off picking a diffrent character to counter pick marth,


Marths bad stages are japes halberd FD.
Japes usally isn't legal so go with halberd or FD

 

[gamesuxcard]

I'm pretty sure mashing buttons doesn't do anything when in broken shield stun. Prepare di and sdi if necessary.

 

[KayLo!]

When I say that this matchup is kinda like playing against wario I meant you can't really approach, and a way of baiting a marth to coming towards you is spacing a baited airdodge where you know you can do something to punish/get away/mindgame/mix it up by the time the marth is coming over..

Be careful about using words like "baiting" and "mindgames" in a matchup discussion. It's nice to have any useful tips, obviously, but mindgames do not go into the consideration of a MU ratio.

Matchup dis/advantages are decided purely on a character-to-character basis, not player-to-player.

I'm pretty sure mashing buttons doesn't do anything when in broken shield stun.

False. Mashing buttons and wiggling your control sticks reduces the time you're in shieldbreak stun. Also, the lower your damage, the longer you'll be in stuck in the dazed animation.

Although in actual gameplay, it's unlikely to matter unless the Marth is extremely slow or stupid.

 

[Pikabunz]

Actually, higher damage = less time in the dazed animation. Not like that really matters cause you're dead anyways.

 

[KayLo!]

Oops, my bad. Either I typo'd or I was thinking backwards.

TUSM, I read your Gamefaqs post..... =P Apparently at 400%, you break out of shield break daze automatically? Useless trivia ftw.

 

[The Phazon Assassin]

Oops, my bad. Either I typo'd or I was thinking backwards.

TUSM, I read your Gamefaqs post..... =P Apparently at 400%, you break out of shield break daze automatically? Useless trivia ftw.

OMG, how in the hell did you find that? I posted that like, two years ago.

Oh yeah, I'm a namesearch *****.

 

[KayLo!]

Google son. I was double checking that button mashing affects shield break stun. .......In fact, I think that's why I got the percentage thing backwards. My mind was still on your answer, lol. ;;

 

[The Phazon Assassin]

I worded it wrong, that's all. At higher damages, it's harder to break out of grabs and stuff, but it's the opposite for shield breakage.

Carry on, folks, I'm out.

 

[PikaPika!]

In all honesty there is no reason for marth to lose to you guys in the end your better off picking a diffrent character to counter pick marth,

Im just gonna go with being better than you and the other marth players to get myself through this MU

 

[gamesuxcard]

Be careful about using words like "baiting" and "mindgames" in a matchup discussion. It's nice to have any useful tips, obviously, but mindgames do not go into the consideration of a MU ratio.

Matchup dis/advantages are decided purely on a character-to-character basis, not player-to-player.



False. Mashing buttons and wiggling your control sticks reduces the time you're in shieldbreak stun. Also, the lower your damage, the longer you'll be in stuck in the dazed animation.

Although in actual gameplay, it's unlikely to matter unless the Marth is extremely slow or stupid.

Alright, you got me on the sheildbreak stun, still, unless you're opponent decides to take a break and set his controller down, preparing di seems your best bet.

as for using baiting in my post i explained the said bait in a pretty obvious light.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I can get out of shield break stun in like 2.4 seconds after hitting the ground ~60%. Either way you see the people charging a smash so once you realize its futile to mash you can DI. It doesn't take very long to DI at all.

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

If you get "shield breaker'ed," just put down the controller and let the marth do his thing. You won't be wasting your strength or time getting out of the stun, and you'll look like a cool, seasoned veteran while doing it.

I agree with esam ^. DI it.

 

[gamesuxcard]

Less than three seconds to get out of sheild break stun doesn't seem bad at all, i thought the rate at which mashing out was relevant was pretty steep but maybe not so much. cool facts esam.

 

[The Phazon Assassin]

i saw a formula related to this stuff on someone's blog on AiB. He gave the number of total frames you would be stunned without pressing buttons at various damages. He also stated that every button/direction you press takes away one frame from that time. I'm not sure how the C-Stick effects that though.

 

[KayLo!]

He also stated that every button/direction you press takes away one frame from that time.

Two questions:

- Does this apply to grabs/swallows too?
- Do you have to press different buttons/directions, or can you spam one button/keep tapping the control stick in one direction?

 

[gamesuxcard]

I'm pretty sure the cstick would count as one input for every time you tap it in one direction, and not count for anymore until it returns to neutral.

 

[The Phazon Assassin]

First, here's the blog if anyone's curious. He was talking about Jigglypuff's sing move.

Two, I don't know if it's EXACTLY the same, but the formula works in a similar way with grabs and swallow moves. The higher your damage, the longer it takes to break free, but button mashing will help break you free faster. Also, you can press any combination of buttons you wish, whether it's one button or several. I believe the most effective way to break out of something is to press every button on the controller (A, B, L, R, X, Y, & Z all count), and tapping the Control Stick back and forth.

 

[Blacknight99923]

discussing how fast it takes to get out of shield stun is pointless, your dead at 30% or higher if your shields broken, and i hate to break it to you but NO ONE NOT EVEN SNAKE (AND DEFINETLY NOT PIKACHU) is living to 400%


Your better off learning how to punish his fair (if thats possible)

 

[KayLo!]

Nobody said it was worth it to try to break out......

EDIT: And the 400% thing was noted as useless trivia.

 

[Shaya]

Pikachu is not even close to dying at 30% from a fully charged tipper shieldbreaker either...

60% sure.

about 90 frames for a fully charged shieldbreaker btw.

Pretty meh info anyway... shieldbreaker is hardly amazing against anyone other than [maybe] Snake.

 

[mercy]

I don't think this matchup is as bad as g&w

 

[Toby.]

GW is slower, has fewer options, more predictable and harder to land kill moves and overall an inferior defense/approach game.

The only thing he has over marth in this instance is a bucket.

 

[Ussi]

GW is slower, has fewer options, more predictable and harder to land kill moves and overall an inferior defense/approach game.

The only thing he has over marth in this instance is a bucket.

That and stronger kill moves when they do land...

 

[Toby.]

True, but I'd take more reliable zoning over stronger kill moves any day.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

This isn't about comparing match-ups. This is about marth. Please stay on topic.

 

[Razek]

I think the MU is in marths favor, but nothing to change characters for or anything.I don't think playing campy is the way to go, especially when your not at kill %. Marth likes you just out side his bubble. break through and you can start the damage. Ive played Hrnut's marth like 500 times and my shield still hasn't broke. power shielding makes a world of difference. As for random facts on shield stun, pika can cancel the daze animation if he is on the very ledge of a lvl or platform

 

[P. O. F.]

Quick Thoughts from someone who plays a Pikachu all the time:

-Dont try to camp us. Jab, f tilt, fair all go through this and Marth can literally walk up to Pikachu and hit him. If he goes in the air when we are close....fair him quickly.
-Dsmash is incredibly easy to mash up out of to avoid any chance of good damage.
-Pika can't touch Marth on the ground other than a few d throws and maybe his tech chase. (I would say this is one of his best tools VS Marth to mess w him) D tilt destroys pikas ground game and if they SH toward us....f tilt or retreating fair is safe.
-Recovery is not that hard to gimp. If you're used to the timing you can go out and fair pikas side B or even d tilt if your spacing is really good and you can sweet spot it.
-Edge Hog to try to force pika to land on stage. Get up and punish with DB. (sometimes this won't work but it does put pika on defensive once on stage and gives Marth offensive advantage)
-If they are recovering from above to try to land on stage nair is pretty nice to knock pika out far. Otherwise, its a useless move in this match up.

I'd give it a 70-30 Marth. At best for Pika its 60-40 Marth.

 

[PikaPika!]

At worst 60-40 at best 55-45

I dont like when terrible players who play terrible pikachus try and give any type of MU numbers.

 

[P. O. F.]

At worst 60-40 at best 55-45

I dont like when terrible players who play terrible pikachus try and give any type of MU numbers.

LOL, keep talking like you know what you are talking about? Have you ever played me? No, so don't comment. Sir, I play Brawl MAYBE once a month and I'm a fairly solid player. Brawl is not a hard game to learn/understand. Never approach and you win.

Marth is easily Pikachus worst match up and he literally has no way of getting inside of him unless Marth is stupid and does not space properly. What else is there to really discuss? Space properly (not hard in this match up) and Marth destroys Pika.

 

[King~]

lol @ 70-30, some agree some disagree with being pikas hardest match up(its not)

like 70-30 is what we have vs fox with the CG, which is bordeline unwinnable, this is by no strech of imagination unwinniable no where close.

 

[KayLo!]

Let's respectfully and objectively discuss the matchup and not resort to personal jabs, kthx.

 

[gamesuxcard]

if a marth is spacing correctly and playing smart I would rather fight a metaknight.

 

[PikaPika!]

Let's respectfully and objectively discuss the matchup and not resort to personal jabs, kthx.

I don't respect bad players with no sense of where they rank.

 

[mercy]

Utilt, Uair, oh yea.

Also B-throw is gold against marth.

 

[Shiri]

Lay down that red hammer of justice, KayLo! Jerks ain't scurred of no yellow!

But if I can actually contribute, I think this matchup is very comfortable for Marth, but he has to be in control almost the entire time if he doesn't want to have to play catch up. This means no janky stages or gimmicks and if those are present, he has to be better at them than Pikachu, or he can find himself in a hole pretty quickly. Marth's weakness of commitment is what stops him from dominating this matchup completely, as Pikachu has the speed (although he lacks effective range on most of his better attacks) to capitalize on unsafe efforts to space or wall.

I think a surefire way for Marth to lose this is to just retreat and try to wall; Marth playing super gay and safe without letting the momentum drift away from him is how I see him winning. Piakchu is a character that I personally don't think relies on momentum--he just does surprise bullsh*ts out of nowhere and even if he's behind he can still catch up lots of times. Marth, on the other hand, gets very easy to beat once the player starts losing momentum and it's really like the character starts to go in slow motion.

Hard matchup overall for Pikachu, but I think it's one that is very winnable.

 

[Hael Phael]

In my experience against marth (locally I have Xisin who is considered the best player in my state) as long as his spacing is sound and he has momentum there's really not much I can do. Theres something about getting hit with that tipper that just hurts your soul. Also I believe theres a bthrow cg that he caught me in for like 2-3 regrabs a couple of times idk if anyone has seen anything about a bthrow cg for marth. This is definitely a tough matchup

 

[TheOriginalSmasher]

I think just using Thunderjolt or w/e the Neutral special is, is effective

 

[lucy!JOE!]

what about shilding his sword and spot dodging and punish the little lag that he has and when your shield is alomst gone back up and thunderJ so it can recover?


i pracitced this on a noob***